Pre-Mil Only Can those who were non-believers at the start of Tribulation survive the 7 years then get saved and enter the 1000 years w/o dying as martyrs?

Jamdoc

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You are getting closer or farther away with the above statements.
Do you think that John is deliberately describing what Zechariah saw... or are they both describing the same thing... or are they describing different yet similar things?
Because the Zechariah olive branches may or may not be the same as the Zechariah olive trees. And the branches of Zechariah are very different from anything in Revelation.
They aren't though, it's 2 of them as in Zechariah 4, 2 annointed ones who stand next to the Lord of the whole Earth.
who stood next to Jesus on the mount of Transfiguration? 2 Annointed ones, Moses, and Elijah.

Revelation 11:
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Moses turned water into blood in Egypt, and Elijah made it not rain in Israel for 3 and a half years in 1 Kings.

for 1260 days, there is no rain in Israel in Revelation, in the future and the waters are turned to blood.

It's not adding to scripture to use scripture itself to find the answer to a mystery.


What if it is not the sword of the spirit but something else?
You would be altering the words of Revelation to fit your theology instead of letting the word shape your ideas.
I'm letting the Word of God shape my interpretation of Revelation

2 Thessalonians 2
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Isaiah 11
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

The bible is not going to contradict itself, if other passages of scripture say that the root of Jesse is slaying the wicked with the breath of His mouth, then so is Revelation 19.
 
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dwb001

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They aren't though, it's 2 of them as in Zechariah 4, 2 annointed ones who stand next to the Lord of the whole Earth.
who stood next to Jesus on the mount of Transfiguration? 2 Annointed ones, Moses, and Elijah.
There are no pipes coming out of the branches in Revelation.
Revelation 11:

Moses turned water into blood in Egypt, and Elijah made it not rain in Israel for 3 and a half years in 1 Kings.

for 1260 days, there is no rain in Israel in Revelation, in the future and the waters are turned to blood.

It's not adding to scripture to use scripture itself to find the answer to a mystery.



I'm letting the Word of God shape my interpretation of Revelation
Backwards.
2 Thessalonians 2


Isaiah 11


The bible is not going to contradict itself, if other passages of scripture say that the root of Jesse is slaying the wicked with the breath of His mouth, then so is Revelation 19.
No contradiction but possibly not the same events.
 
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Jamdoc

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There are no pipes coming out of the branches in Revelation.
When a Jewish book written by Jews, including Jews who are disciples of Jesus, is referring to a candlestick, they are talking about a menorah, the branched candlestick with pipes.
Backwards.
Never take a book of the bible in a vacuum. all scripture supports each other. That fact allows you to find far more meaning in Revelation than to take it in a vacuum and try to guess. The rest of scripture provides a lot of supporting detail and pieces parts of old testament prophecy together into context.

No contradiction but possibly not the same events.
The 2 Thessalonians 2 passage is specifically about Antichrist, do you have more than 1 encounter between Jesus on Earth and Antichrist?
 
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dwb001

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When a Jewish book written by Jews, including Jews who are disciples of Jesus, is referring to a candlestick, they are talking about a menorah, the branched candlestick with pipes.
But the pipes are not on the candlestick but on the olive branches.
Can you point me to the verse where God is giving instructions for the Tabernacle where the lampstand has pipes?
Never take a book of the bible in a vacuum. all scripture supports each other. That fact allows you to find far more meaning in Revelation than to take it in a vacuum and try to guess. The rest of scripture provides a lot of supporting detail and pieces parts of old testament prophecy together into context.
Except the book of Revelation can be.
You are not seeing the special nature of Revelation. Supporting details are not necessary.
You just described Revelation as a photograph and the rest of prophecy as a pile if puzzle pieces. Which one do you use to make sure the puzzle pieces are in the right place? The photograph.
The 2 Thessalonians 2 passage is specifically about Antichrist, do you have more than 1 encounter between Jesus on Earth and Antichrist?
Just one encounter as far as I know.
Now did I say that other passages never refer to the same events or did I say that they might? It was the latter.

There are supporting verses in other books..
But they are NOT needed. In my opinion.
The way I look at it... All other passages point to Revelation... but Revelation does not point to past prophecies.
 
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Jamdoc

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But the pipes are not on the candlestick but on the olive branches.
Can you point me to the verse where God is giving instructions for the Tabernacle where the lampstand has pipes?
Re-read Zechariah 4
2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
The prophet is shown a menorah, and asks what it means, the angel explains that the candlestick represents the house of God that Zerubbabel was rebuilding (he was the high priest), but less the building, and more the body of believers, because as we know, the building is of less importance "the church" is not a building but a body of believers similarly.
then the prophet asks about the olive trees and is told that they are 2 anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth. The 2 witnesses have these same 2 symbols, but Jesus says that candlesticks represent churches in Revelation, so, 2 bodies of believers, and 2 anointed ones, and I believe scripture connects their identities by the things they do (turning water to blood and cutting off all rain from the land for 3.5 years), and more simply, it was Moses and Elijah that stood next to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration.


Except the book of Revelation can be.
You are not seeing the special nature of Revelation. Supporting details are not necessary.
You just described Revelation as a photograph and the rest of prophecy as a pile if puzzle pieces. Which one do you use to make sure the puzzle pieces are in the right place? The photograph.
It shouldn't be. Because you miss so much of it if you are not familiar with the Old Testament prophets. You are right that Revelation sorts all those old prophetic passages and makes sense of all of them, but in return, the old testament explains some of the symbols in Revelation, it is a symbiotic relationship in text where Revelation organizes Old Testament prophecy and gives it all context and to some degree timing, but the Old Testament prophets give detail and provide the vocabulary needed to see all the symbols for what they are.

Otherwise you have Jesus with a literal physical sword coming out of His mouth, a literal sea monster, and the two witnesses being 2 literal candlesticks and olive trees.
Just one encounter as far as I know.
Now did I say that other passages never refer to the same events or did I say that they might? It was the latter.

There are supporting verses in other books..
But they are NOT needed. In my opinion.
The way I look at it... All other passages point to Revelation... but Revelation does not point to past prophecies.
the other passages explain symbols, which is necessary because it is apocalyptic language, it's not a literal sea monster, it's a kingdom and its king, Daniel 7 explains (Revelation 17 confirms), it's not 2 literal olive trees and candlesticks, Zechariah 4 explains, and Revelation 1 confirms the candlesticks. and it's not a literal sword, as other scripture explains that it is the Word of God.

Hebrews 4
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
 
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Timtofly

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Sorry, I should have picked the Pretrib button instead of the Premillennial button. Can you describe your view? Are you a postribulational premillennialist or how would you describe your view and its basis? I'm interested in your view and how you arrived at it.
Even dispensationalists are post trib adherents. Not sure why a post trib adherent is complaining? This is is not about the rapture, but the whole dynamic of the Second Coming itself.

I mean, we are talking about post trib souls, not people on earth prior to the Flood.

The Flood is used as a close analogy to the time of Jacob's trouble. The major difference is that sin continued after the Flood. Which leads to your whole point.

The Second Coming brings Jesus Christ as King to sit in judgment. But even pret-trib people have the timing of this judgment wrong. The tribulation is for the final harvest. The final harvest is not after the tribulation.

No one will be left to carry on Adam's dead corruptible flesh. So no one is going to sneak into the Millennium in Adam's sinful condition. People are not dying as martyrs. People are leaving Adam's flesh either to eternal life, or to eternal death.

The sheep go into the Millennium Kingdom. The wheat go into the Millennium kingdom. That is where those in the Millennium come from. But these are not the leftovers after the tribulation. These are separated and leave earth, during the tribulation. We are not told how, but they wait on the sea of glass. It can be assumed that angels are gathering people throughout the tribulation. They start with the church at the Second Coming, the 5th and 6th Seal. They continue all the way up until the 7th Trumpet.
 
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Bobber

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The assumption is that people can survive in bunker for the seven years and have no contact with what is going on. The time of the tribulation will not be like now.

That is like saying someone other than Noah could have survived the flood by having their own boat.
I would suppose they'd be in pretty bad shape if they have to receive medical attention for anything or need an operation.
 
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d taylor

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I would suppose they'd be in pretty bad shape if they have to receive medical attention for anything or need an operation.
NKJV
Behold, the Lord makes the earth empty and makes it waste,
Distorts its surface
And scatters abroad its inhabitants.


NIV
See, the Lord is going to lay waste the earth
and devastate it;
he will ruin its face
and scatter its inhabitants
 
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