The Great Tribulation

[visionary]

The seven trumpets are in the tribulation.. This is where the rubber meets the road.. and Christian faith moves from milk to meat and matures fully.

 

[Zadok7000]

Isn't it during the final 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation during the Great Tribulation?

Heaven rolled up like a scroll to reveal...what? hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God...And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged

They are hiding from HIS FACE, they are SEEING HIM RETURNING, judging and making war!

And I saw heaven opened,
Sound familiar?
and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
IE the Wrath of the Lamb
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns...
"Hide us from the face of Him"
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
"the great day of His Wrath is come and who shall be able to stand"

 

[Zadok7000]

The seven trumpets are in the tribulation.. This is where the rubber meets the road.. and Christian faith moves from milk to meat and matures fully.

That's the truth. None of the trumpets have blown, so we're not there yet.

 

[visionary]

It takes two witnesses to testify that the feast of trumpets have started... [Judaism rehearsal of feast traditions] which I see Revelation revealing...

There are several reason for trumpets..

A call to war..
A call to assembly..
A call to move camp..
A call to repentance..
A call before announcements
A call of warning of incoming threats
etc...

Eat scroll and Prophecy again.. Rev 10
Two witnesses.. Rev 11

 

[interpreter]

That's the truth. None of the trumpets have blown, so we're not there yet.

All of the trumpet prophecies have been fulfilled. For example, 200 million horses prepared (or manufactured) for release on 1 day were released on D-Day. WW II was the great tribulation.

 

[B1inHim]

All of the trumpet prophecies have been fulfilled. For example, 200 million horses prepared (or manufactured) for release on 1 day were released on D-Day. WW II was the great tribulation.

NOT YET, that happened but there is one to come that will eclipse all the rest

 

[visionary]

All of the trumpet prophecies have been fulfilled. For example, 200 million horses prepared (or manufactured) for release on 1 day were released on D-Day. WW II was the great tribulation.

I have always thought of WW1 as the first "woe" of Revelation... WW2 as the second "woe" of Revelation... and of course when it happens.. WWW3 will be the third "woe" of Revelation. [WWW= World Wide War]

 

[interpreter]

NOT YET, that happened but there is one to come that will eclipse all the rest

No, there is only one great tribulation. What is happening now is the 7 last plages (global warming, etc.). The Euphrates was dry on 9/11 when the first shot of the Battle of Ar Mageddon was fired.

 

[NJBeliever]

Heaven rolled up like a scroll to reveal...what? hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God...And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged

They are hiding from HIS FACE, they are SEEING HIM RETURNING, judging and making war!

Dude, you just completely added to Scripture. First of all the "face" being referenced is that of God The Father, not Jesus. And it says nothing about Jesus returning and making war in that verse.

And I saw heaven opened,
Sound familiar?
and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
IE the Wrath of the Lamb
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns...
"Hide us from the face of Him"
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
"the great day of His Wrath is come and who shall be able to stand"

It's not the same event. You are just forcing your ideas onto Scripture. The 6th Seal comes before the trumpets, which come before the vials. The earthquake of the 6th Seal moves every mountain out of its current position. The earthquake of the 7th vial DESTROYS every mountain completely. The 6th Seal earthquake sends the rich and powerful hiding in mountains for safety. The 7th vial earthquake leaves no mountains to be found on Earth. They are not the same event.

And again, this is why your rapture model fails. The Day of The Lord Starts at the 6th Seal. That is the "thief in the night" event. The Second Coming is expected and happens after the 7th vial. And again, I listed 5 reasons that clearly state that anyone can and will know when Christ is coming back. This is the pivotal issue.

 

[NJBeliever]

I have always thought of WW1 as the first "woe" of Revelation... WW2 as the second "woe" of Revelation... and of course when it happens.. WWW3 will be the third "woe" of Revelation. [WWW= World Wide War]

The woes are the 5th, 6th and 7th trumpet judgments of Revelation.

 

[visionary]

The woes are the 5th, 6th and 7th trumpet judgments of Revelation.

Are you sure?

 

[Zadok7000]

Dude, you just completely added to Scripture. First of all the "face" being referenced is that of God The Father, not Jesus. And it says nothing about Jesus returning and making war in that verse.

Why in the holy heck do you think God says "wrath of the Lamb" in the 6th seal if Jesus isn't returning?!
You're inserting "God the Father" into the 6th seal and I'm the one adding to Scripture?
Seriously NJ, you must "unlearn what you have learned" and drop this man-made garbage.

 

[Zadok7000]

Are you sure?

I hate to agree with NJ, but that is correct.

After the 4th trumpet:
And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

After the 5th trumpet:
One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

After the 6th trumpet:
The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

 

[Zadok7000]

The earthquake of the 6th Seal moves every mountain out of its current position. The earthquake of the 7th vial DESTROYS every mountain completely.

Hate to break it to ya, but that's the same thing. Do you understand basic Biblical symbology?

 

[TehMill]

That's the truth. None of the trumpets have blown, so we're not there yet.

*
I really do not understand why christians cannot discern the difference between tribulation and God's wrath.

Jesus said "they WILL deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death"

Clearly tribulation comes from man and is persecution, God's wrath is against unrepentant sinners

 

[NJBeliever]

Why in the holy heck do you think God says "wrath of the Lamb" in the 6th seal if Jesus isn't returning?!
You're inserting "God the Father" into the 6th seal and I'm the one adding to Scripture?
Seriously NJ, you must "unlearn what you have learned" and drop this man-made garbage.

Decaf Zadok. Decaf I say.

You are inserting something that is not in the scripture.

Revelation 6: 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The "face" is of the on the that sitteth on the throne, which is God The Father. Jesus is at His right Hand. And notice it says "AND from the wrath of the Lamb"? This means they are in fear of 2 beings. God and Jesus. This is the Day of The Lord.

There is nothing said in this verse about Jesus returning or a war breaking out. And none of the Old Testament verses about the Day of The Lord mention Jesus returning or fighting a war either. You are just adding that to Scripture.

The Seven angels carrying the vials in Revelation 15 come out of the Temple in Heaven. The temple isn't even opened until chapter 15. This is AFTER the seven angels coming out who were given trumpets have sounded. And they are not given trumpets until AFTER the seventh seal is opened. It's all in sequence. You are just haphazardly mixing up scriptures with no Biblical warrant. Why? Because you adhere to an incorrect and flawed rapture model that thus forces you to twist scripture to make it work.

 

[NJBeliever]

Hate to break it to ya, but that's the same thing. Do you understand basic Biblical symbology?

Yes, I do understand symbols in the Bible. And these verses have no symbols. These are actual, literal events that will happen in the future. The two events are clearly not the same. Mountains all over the earth shifted to a different position on the day of the Tsunami. Were they destroyed? No. Were they unable to be found? No. Total difference.

If you have some Biblical reasons for the things you're saying, I'm open to it. Your opinions and speculation fail against The Word of God.


The 6th Seal and 7th vial are not the same

7th Vial

Revelation 16: 17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

The Sixth Seal

Revelation 6:12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand

Again, this is not symbolic. It's literal. And the amount of different occurrences in each event are numerous. Not to mention there is no Biblical reason to see them as the same event since the seals, trumpets and vials happen sequentially, not concurrently. And of course, we can just look at the 5th seal and the 6th vial, the 4th seal and the 3rd vial and there is absolutely NO SIMILARITY at all. So we know they are not the same things.

As I said, The Day of The Lord and the Second Coming are not the same thing. It's obvious the Day of The Lord starts after the opening of the 6th Seal. Jesus Christ our Lord does not come until Rev 19, much, much later. Don't worry about a Rapture model. Just look to the plain meaning of Scripture. God bless.

 

[visionary]

I agree.. Day of the Lord.. Judgement Day... Yom Kippur... is not... The day of the Lord's return.. Feast of Tabernacles..Eighth Day....

 

[Douggg]

Hate to break it to ya, but that's the same thing. Do you understand basic Biblical symbology?

Hi Zadok, The 6th seal takes place over not more than an 8 hr period imo, starting with the sun darkening, and then the moon as night approaches turning red, and then as night is in full swing and the stars shining, the cosmos parts and the stars disappear. When that happens, the world will see Jesus before the Throne of God. That set of events is the sign of Jesus coming - not his descending to the earth itself - which takes place 45 days later.

Okay, the world panics, and they are terrified wishing that the moutains crush them. It takes the AC, False Prophet, and Satan to convince the kings of the earth to band together and militarily to stop Jesus from returning. (btw, the mountains are moved out of their places in the 6th seal, not leveled as happens in the 7th vial.)

So with Jesus and his armies of heaven in broad plain view, the armies of the world assemble themselves at Armageddon preparing to march down to Jerusalem. They have 45 days to make ready and attack Jerusalem. There are some passages in the old testament that the Jews still left in Jerusalem will be fighting like 10,000 king Davids as this battle begins. Even so, in Zechariah 14, the Jews there are against incredible odds and will suffer some losses.

During that 45 days, the 7th vial takes place right before Jesus and his armies descend from heaven.

So you are right to an extent if one considers (1) the sixth seal is the sign of Jesus's Return...(2) then 45 days later.... (3) is Jesus actual descending from heaven to earth coming in the clouds of heaven.

The very quick series of events of the sixth seal correspond "item by item" to the "item by item" events of Matthew 24:29-30 regarding them being the sign of Jesus's coming.

Doug L.

 

[NJBeliever]

Hi Zadok, The 6th seal takes place over not more than an 8 hr period imo, starting with the sun darkening, and then the moon as night approaches turning red, and then as night is in full swing and the stars shining, the cosmos parts and the stars disappear. When that happens, the world will see Jesus before the Throne of God. That set of events is the sign of Jesus coming - not his descending to the earth itself - which takes place 45 days later.

Okay, the world panics, and they are terrified wishing that the moutains crush them. It takes the AC, False Prophet, and Satan to convince the kings of the earth to band together and militarily to stop Jesus from returning. (btw, the mountains are moved out of their places in the 6th seal, not leveled as happens in the 7th vial.)

So with Jesus and his armies of heaven in broad plain view, the armies of the world assemble themselves at Armageddon preparing to march down to Jerusalem. They have 45 days to make ready and attack Jerusalem. There are some passages in the old testament that the Jews still left in Jerusalem will be fighting like 10,000 king Davids as this battle begins. Even so, in Zechariah 14, the Jews there are against incredible odds and will suffer some losses.

During that 45 days, the 7th vial takes place right before Jesus and his armies descend from heaven.

So you are right to an extent if one considers (1) the sixth seal is the sign of Jesus's Return...(2) then 45 days later.... (3) is Jesus actual descending from heaven to earth coming in the clouds of heaven.

The very quick series of events of the sixth seal correspond "item by item" to the "item by item" events of Matthew 24:29-30 regarding them being the sign of Jesus's coming.

Doug L.

Doug, I am glad we agree that the 6th Seal and 7th vial are not the same event. But I do disagree with a few of your points:

45 days -- I don't know where you get this time frame from. If you agree that the seals, trumpets and vials happen in sequence then the 45 days cannot be accurate. The 2 witnesses are killed after preaching for 1,260 days (or 3 1/e Hebrew years). When they are resurrected and raptured 3 1/2 days later we are at the end of the 6th trumpet (aka the "second woe"). This is the midpoint of the 70th week (which is 7 Hebrew years). The 6th Seal sets everything into motion because the Day of The Lord and the 70th week do not start until after it's opened. So the time between the 6th seal and the 6th trumpet is much more than 45 days.

Seeing Jesus and His armies -- You said that people of the Earth will see Jesus at the 6th Seal. Where is this ever said? There is no mention of Jesus returning at the 6th Seal, or His armies.