Pre-Mil Only Can those who were non-believers at the start of Tribulation survive the 7 years then get saved and enter the 1000 years w/o dying as martyrs?

[Jeffwhosoever]

I thought I had tribulation figured out until I finished the book on Dispensationalism required for my seminary class in bibliology and theological method. But according to our textbook, some will enter the millennium that get saved during the tribulation, refuse the mark of the beast, survive and yet do not have to be martyred. This was news to me as I thought the only way a person could be saved during tribulation was to die a martyr's death, so I want to discuss where both ideas come from and who is right. Is there hope for some people that (1) are not Christians and miss the rapture of the church at the start of the tribulation, (2) see the BIble was right all along and they messed up by not believing in time but they come to saving faith because the Holy Spirit, while withdrawn from some respects, is still here for salvation purposes for those who find their faith and persevere to the end, (3) do not accept the mark of the beast, and (4) do not die during the 7 years, so they enter the 1000 year reign as unglorified (still alive) humans that eventually die as normal humans die during the 1000 years. Again this is all new to me because I thought I had it clear that only those who died a martyr's death could be saved during tribulation, but this book from DTS on Dispensationalism says there are some who somehow get through all of tribulation and meet all the requirements to be judged and allowed to enter the Kingdom a normal humans, while those of us who were believers when Tribulation began are back in.

Before you answer, please note the tag for this thread is PRE-MILLENIALS ONLY. It would be pointless for anyone else to give their opinion on the topic.

 

[RandyPNW]

I thought I had tribulation figured out until I finished the book on Dispensationalism required for my seminary class in bibliology and theological method. But according to our textbook, some will enter the millennium that get saved during the tribulation, refuse the mark of the beast, survive and yet do not have to be martyred. This was news to me as I thought the only way a person could be saved during tribulation was to die a martyr's death, so I want to discuss where both ideas come from and who is right. Is there hope for some people that (1) are not Christians and miss the rapture of the church at the start of the tribulation, (2) see the BIble was right all along and they messed up by not believing in time but they come to saving faith because the Holy Spirit, while withdrawn from some respects, is still here for salvation purposes for those who find their faith and persevere to the end, (3) do not accept the mark of the beast, and (4) do not die during the 7 years, so they enter the 1000 year reign as unglorified (still alive) humans that eventually die as normal humans die during the 1000 years. Again this is all new to me because I thought I had it clear that only those who died a martyr's death could be saved during tribulation, but this book from DTS on Dispensationalism says there are some who somehow get through all of tribulation and meet all the requirements to be judged and allowed to enter the Kingdom a normal humans, while those of us who were believers when Tribulation began are back in.

Before you answer, please note the tag for this thread is PRE-MILLENIALS ONLY. It would be pointless for anyone else to give their opinion on the topic.

I notice you asked for Premill only, and did not exclude Postribbers like myself. It is pointless for us, as well, since we do not believe the book of Revelation was written for any other reason than to encourage Christians to stand up to Antichristianity.

 

[Sorn]

I think it may be possible to do so, ie survive the tribulation without becoming a Christian but it will not be easy & obviously relies on a number of assumptions. A person would definitely have to NOT take the mark of the beast as all that do will be killed.

1) Most that don't take the mark will be people who believe in Jesus, he is who He says He is etc
2) Some may refuse from coming from other faiths or moral positions, they may be spared by God if they survive but its an assumption only
3) If the antichrist does not rule the world but rules a world region then other countries will either help the antichrist system or work against it, some say this is the sheep & goats judgement, those nations that help the antichrist are the goats, those that are against him are the sheep. The sheep nations / people that survive go into millennium even though some may not be Christian
4) Goat nations / people don't survive & are killed off.
5) Don't know what happens after that as clearly people will still be born & we are not told at what point they become immortal or if they still have to die and are then resurrected etc, after accepting Jesus of course.
6) We do know that at the end of the millennium, many people for reasons we can't really fathom say no to Christ & are killed when they try to attack. How the devil deceives them is completely unknown.

7) If the antichrist does rule the world then rebelling against him will still be possible but it probably won't be at a country level but more at just the individual level so will be much harder to do & survive unless God helps you.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I found this in Logos:


Christ’s Coming and the Gentile Nations (Matt. 25:31–46)

This section explains to us how Jesus Christ will judge the Gentile nations. The word nations in Matthew 25:32 means “Gentiles,” and it is in the neuter gender in the Greek. The word them in that same verse is in the masculine. This means that the nations will be gathered before Jesus Christ, but He will judge them as individuals. This will not be a judgment of groups (Germany, Italy, Japan, etc.) but of individuals within these nations.
We must not confuse this judgment with the Great White Throne Judgment described in Revelation 20:11–15. Some scholars merge both passages and call this “the general judgment.” The Bible knows nothing of a “general judgment.” This judgment takes place on earth immediately after the Battle of Armageddon. The White Throne Judgment takes place in space somewhere (“the earth and the heaven fled away,” Rev. 20:11). The judgment here in Matthew 25 takes place before the kingdom is established on earth, for the saved are told to “inherit the kingdom” (Matt. 25:34). The White Throne Judgment will take place after the 1,000-year reign of Christ (Rev. 20:7ff).
There is another error we must avoid. We must not force this passage to teach salvation by good works. A superficial reading would give the impression that helping one’s neighbor is sufficient to earn salvation and go to heaven. But this is not the message of this passage. Nobody at any time in the history of the world was ever saved by good works.
The Old Testament saints were saved by faith (Heb. 11); the New Testament saints were saved by faith in Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:8–10). People today are saved the same way. The gospel of “do good” is not a scriptural message. It is right for believers to do good (Gal. 6:10; Heb. 13:16), but this is not the way unbelievers can be saved.
If we keep in mind the three groups in the account, it will help to solve this problem: There were sheep, goats, and brethren. Who are these people that the King dares to call “My brethren”? It seems likely that they are the believing Jews from the Tribulation period. These are people who will hear the message of the 144,000 and trust Jesus Christ. Since these believing Jews will not receive the “mark of the beast” (Rev. 13:16–17), they will be unable to buy or sell. How, then, can they survive? Through the loving care of the Gentiles who have trusted Christ and who care for His brethren.
The interesting thing about this judgment is that the sheep individuals are surprised at what they hear. They will not remember having seen the Lord Jesus Christ and ministering to His needs. But just as they lovingly ministered to the believing Jews, they did it to Christ. Their motive was not reward, but sacrificial love. In fact, these Gentiles took their own lives in their hands when they welcomed the homeless Jews and cared for them. “He that receiveth you receiveth Me,” Jesus said to His disciples (Matt. 10:40); and surely this would also apply to His brethren.
The individuals designated goats were judged because they did not trust Jesus Christ and give evidence of that faith by caring for His brethren. They apparently received the mark of the beast and took care of themselves and their own, but they had no time for the Jewish remnant that was suffering on earth (Rev. 12:17). There are sins of omission as well as sins of commission (James 4:17). Not doing good is the moral equivalent of doing evil.
When we compare the two judicial sentences (Matt. 25:34, 41), we discover some interesting truths. To begin with, the sheep were blessed of the Father; but it does not say that the goats were “cursed of the Father.” The sheep inherit the kingdom, and inheritance is based on birth. Because they had been born again through faith, they inherited the kingdom.
This kingdom was prepared for these saved individuals, but Matthew 25:41 does not state that the everlasting fire was prepared for the goats. It was prepared for the devil and his angels (Rev. 20:10). God never prepared hell for people. There is no evidence from Scripture that God predestines people to go to hell. If sinners listen to Satan, and follow his ways, they will end up where he ends up—in the torments of hell. There are only two eternal destinies: everlasting punishment for those who reject Christ or eternal life for those who trust Him.
The sheep will be ushered into the kingdom to share in Christ’s glory. The church will be reigning with Christ, and Israel will enjoy the fulfillment of the promises made through the prophets. All of creation will share in the glorious liberty of God’s children (Rom. 8:19–21). Jesus Christ will rule from David’s throne in Jerusalem (Luke 1:30–33), and peace will reign for 1,000 years (Isa. 11).
As we look back over the Olivet Discourse, we should review several facts. To begin with, God is not finished with the people of Israel. Jesus made it clear in this sermon that Israel would be purified and brought to faith in the Messiah. God has not cast away His people (Rom. 11:1ff).
Second, the Old Testament promises of the kingdom will be fulfilled. The Tribulation period will be a very difficult time for people on the earth. But it will be “travail” in preparation for the birth of the kingdom. The suffering will lead to glory.
Third, God is going to judge this world. He is not sending cataclysmic judgments today because this is a day of grace when His message is, “Be you reconciled to God” (2 Cor. 5:14ff). The heavens are silent because man’s sins have already been judged at the Cross. God has spoken once and for all through His Son, and He will not speak to this earth again until He sends His judgments during the Tribulation.
Fourth, we as Christians and members of His church are not looking for signs. “The Jews require a sign” (1 Cor. 1:22). There will be no signs given prior to the sudden return of Christ in the air for His church. However, as we see some of these Tribulation signs beginning (“When these things begin to take place,” Luke 21:28, NASB), we feel that the end is not far away. It seems that international tensions and problems are increasing to the point where the world will cry out for a dictator, and Satan will have his candidate ready.
Finally, no matter what view of prophecy we take, we know that Jesus is coming again. As Christians, we must be alert and ready. We must not waste our opportunities. We may not have a great deal of ability or a great many gifts, but we can still be faithful in the calling He has given us.


Warren W. Wiersbe, The Bible Exposition Commentary, vol. 1 (Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1996), 93–94.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I notice you asked for Premill only, and did not exclude Postribbers like myself. It is pointless for us, as well, since we do not believe the book of Revelation was written for any other reason than to encourage Christians to stand up to Antichristianity.

Sorry, I should have picked the Pretrib button instead of the Premillennial button. Can you describe your view? Are you a postribulational premillennialist or how would you describe your view and its basis? I'm interested in your view and how you arrived at it.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I think it may be possible to do so, ie survive the tribulation without becoming a Christian but it will not be easy & obviously relies on a number of assumptions. A person would definitely have to NOT take the mark of the beast as all that do will be killed.

1) Most that don't take the mark will be people who believe in Jesus, he is who He says He is etc
2) Some may refuse from coming from other faiths or moral positions, they may be spared by God if they survive but its an assumption only
3) If the antichrist does not rule the world but rules a world region then other countries will either help the antichrist system or work against it, some say this is the sheep & goats judgement, those nations that help the antichrist are the goats, those that are against him are the sheep. The sheep nations / people that survive go into millennium even though some may not be Christian
4) Goat nations / people don't survive & are killed off.
5) Don't know what happens after that as clearly people will still be born & we are not told at what point they become immortal or if they still have to die and are then resurrected etc, after accepting Jesus of course.
6) We do know that at the end of the millennium, many people for reasons we can't really fathom say no to Christ & are killed when they try to attack. How the devil deceives them is completely unknown.

7) If the antichrist does rule the world then rebelling against him will still be possible but it probably won't be at a country level but more at just the individual level so will be much harder to do & survive unless God helps you.

I think this Scripture is referring to people who do become Christians during tribulation. They refuse the mark of the beast and help those who are struggling along with them, because to get into the Kingdom I assume you would have to have accepted Christ during tribulation, but at least prior to now all books I had read said that only those who died a martyr's death would be saved during tribulation, but this judgement by the Lord immediately after the 7 years of tribulation but before the start of the millennium allows for some to have come to saving faith through grace during tribulation, though they will have to survive a brutal 7 years and not take the mark of the beast which will mean not many will get there. I'd assume most are killed for refusing the mark and professing to be and actually truly be Christians converted during tribulation. And during the millennium we who were raptured and resurrected with immortal bodies will live with regular humans who continue to be born, live normal lives and then die, some becoming Christians and some still refusing Christ even though Christ will be reigning during the entire time they are alive as well as us who will be Priests and Satan will not have any influence on them but apparently enough will still turn evil to form a major army with Satan to fight at the end of the millennium in the final battle.

I won't be around during tribulation but I found this discovery hopeful because I have family that know the Gospel and yet reject Christ. They still have two chances to become saved during tribulation - either refuse the mark and die as a martyr or refuse the mark, help God's people who are struggling like them to survive, and accept the Lord as they see Tribulation unfold.

 

[Sorn]

I think this Scripture is referring to people who do become Christians during tribulation. They refuse the mark of the beast and help those who are struggling along with them, because to get into the Kingdom I assume you would have to have accepted Christ during tribulation, but at least prior to now all books I had read said that only those who died a martyr's death would be saved during tribulation, but this judgement by the Lord immediately after the 7 years of tribulation but before the start of the millennium allows for some to have come to saving faith through grace during tribulation, though they will have to survive a brutal 7 years and not take the mark of the beast which will mean not many will get there. I'd assume most are killed for refusing the mark and professing to be and actually truly be Christians converted during tribulation. And during the millennium we who were raptured and resurrected with immortal bodies will live with regular humans who continue to be born, live normal lives and then die, some becoming Christians and some still refusing Christ even though Christ will be reigning during the entire time they are alive as well as us who will be Priests and Satan will not have any influence on them but apparently enough will still turn evil to form a major army with Satan to fight at the end of the millennium in the final battle.

I won't be around during tribulation but I found this discovery hopeful because I have family that know the Gospel and yet reject Christ. They still have two chances to become saved during tribulation - either refuse the mark and die as a martyr or refuse the mark, help God's people who are struggling like them to survive, and accept the Lord as they see Tribulation unfold.

This is an interesting video as the to the sheep & goat judgement

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Scripture absolutely rules over tradition, experience and reason of the Wesley quadrilateral. Scripture is "God breathed" and therefore inspired as in verbal plenary inspiration. Scripture is also inerrant in the original autographs and wholly true in everything it affirms. Tradition is man's work, as are reason and experience, which make them all inferior to Scripture. It doesn't make them worthless - and in fact since we are images of God, believers are also sources of truth, but we all bow to the ultimate authority of Scripture. And Sola Scriptura does not mean solo scripture. Even Scripture points us to Revelation outside the Bible, but Scripture is still the supreme authority as the direct Word of God. In the event of conflict, Scripture trumps everything else. It doesn't mean the Nicene Creed is worthless, but it does make it less authoritative than the Bible.

Also, Scripture interprets Scripture, but it is necessary to interpret Scripture, though its not near as easy as I thought. I found a really good series of lecture of bible interpretation while studying Hermeneutics in Seminary at Dallas Theological Seminary where I still am a student. Check this out as its very engaging and helpful.

The fifth session is the most useful because it is a workshop that takes you through how to interpret Scripture as a case study method.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I agree that the Rapture is not in the Olivet discourse. It is as the guy in the video describes. I watched it and found it truthful and useful too.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Revelation 13 5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling,[a] that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them.

My understanding is that revelation chapters 2&3 are about the age of the church, with the 7 churches representing all the churches throughout the age spiritually (yes I know the 7 churches existed). Then once the church age ends, the born again Christians will be raptured, while the false Christians are left behind and will have to face the antichrist and the 7 years great tribulation. From revelation chapter 4 onwards (notice the OT language, temple etc.), almost until the end, we have a description of what will happen here on Earth while the Saints are in Heaven, (first the Saints give account to the Lord who will reward them, then is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb). This is all happening simultaneously. The antichrist starts his reign after the rapture, (who he is, I don't know, and I don't care, but he will be loved by Israel and the western world, NATO and OSN etc. He will have enemies from China and Muslim countries, if my understanding of Daniel's prophecy is correct) and he will sign a peace treaty with Israel, this has been prophesied by prophet Isaiah chapter 28:15: Because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death, and with Sheol we have an agreement, when the overwhelming whip passes through it will not come to us, for we have made lies our refuge, and in falsehood we have taken shelter”; - to me this sounds like the peace treaty the antichrist makes with Israel, which he will break with Israel half way through the 7 years. The antichrist will then sit on the throne in the temple in Jerusalem proclaiming himself God. Israel will then realise this is the false Messiah.

So what about the left behind false Christians? The antichrist will make a war on them and conquer them i.e. kill them. Not all, just those who repent and come to Christ, he will make a war on them and conquer them as described in revelation 13. So my understanding is that the antichrist will kill every 'Christian' who is left behind after the rapture, who comes to God and refuses the beast and the mark (although I heard a good argument the mark will be given in the second half of the tribulation, and this is only in regards to Israel.

Back to antichrist and Israel. I think Lord Jesus in John 5:43 'I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him' prophecies about Israel accepting the false messiah who comes in his own name. So now when the antichrist sits down on the throne in the temple, Israel rejects him, and the antichrist (now the devil is with him, or in him) is raging and want s to wipe Israel out. He will gather massive armies against Israel, and Israel will weep, God will pour His Holy Spirit on them (not all, just a remnant, one third like Zechariah prophesises) and they will finally realise that they pierced the Messiah on the cross, and they will repent. Then as the antichrist is about to destroy Israel, the Lord Jesus returns to Earth with His Saints and defeats antichrist and satan.

Lord Jesus will then physically sit on the throne of His father, King David, and then the millennium starts and we will rule with Him, revelation 2 26 'The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations 27 'and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.'

 

[Sorn]

I agree that the Rapture is not in the Olivet discourse. It is as the guy in the video describes. I watched it and found it truthful and useful too.

There are 2 videos and 2 guys, which one?

 

[dwb001]

Just remember that Revelation is not a book to be interpreted.
Just follow the included (included in Revelation) instructions on how to read Revelation.
If we follow John's instructions on how to read Revelation it becomes a very straight forward book.

Why would a non-believer come to Christ if they have rejected Him through the worst plagues to ever hit the planet?
Did Pharaoh join Moses on the trip into the wilderness after the Jews had already set out?
Did average Egyptians also go after the Jews to join them in worshiping the Lord?
Or did Egypt rise to destroy those that they saw as responsible for their plagues?

I am pre-mill as to when Jesus returns. And I place the Rapture event at the post-mill side of history.
Does ANYONE out there share my views? I guess not.

 

[d taylor]

-​

I do not see what is so hard about people, believing in Jesus (for Eternal Life) during the tribulation. Then also surviving the tribulation and going into the tribulation physically alive. To repopulate the restored earth for the 1000 year millennium

God has planed for physically alive people to live in the 1000 year kingdom of God. Where would these people come from if not from surviving the tribulation, to enter alive into The (1000 year) Kingdom of God.

That is what is meant when Jesus states those who will be saved are the ones who persevere to the end. They are saved physically, to go into the 1000 year millennium.
He Who Endures Will Be Saved (Matthew 24:13) – Grace Evangelical Society


That is also what the judgment of the sheep and goats is about.
Matthew 25:31-46: Salvation by Works? – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Sorn]

-​

I do not see what is so hard about people, believing in Jesus (for Eternal Life) during the tribulation. Then also surviving the tribulation and going into the tribulation physically alive. To repopulate the restored earth for the 1000 year millennium

God has planed for physically alive people to live in the 1000 year kingdom of God. Where would these people come from if not from surviving the tribulation, to enter alive into The (1000 year) Kingdom of God.

That is what is meant when Jesus states those who will be saved are the ones who persevere to the end. They are saved physically, to go into the 1000 year millennium.
He Who Endures Will Be Saved (Matthew 24:13) – Grace Evangelical Society


That is also what the judgment of the sheep and goats is about.
Matthew 25:31-46: Salvation by Works? – Grace Evangelical Society

The question was about someone who has not taken the mark of the beast but also not accepted Jesus as Lord or accepted His gift of grace via the cross. Maybe someone who was a prepper and isolated themselves for 7 years or just managed to get by without having to take the mark & also not really supporting that system in their outlook. There are other possibilities too. Could someone like this survive into the start of the millennium.

 

[d taylor]

The question was about someone who has not taken the mark of the beast but also not accepted Jesus as Lord or accepted His gift of grace via the cross. Maybe someone who was a prepper and isolated themselves for 7 years or just managed to get by without having to take the mark & also not really supporting that system in their outlook. There are other possibilities too. Could someone like this survive into the start of the millennium.

No non believers go into the 1000 year kingdom period. And this people living in a bunker, etc.. during the tribulation is pure fantasy

 

[dwb001]

No non believers go into the 1000 year kingdom period. And this people living in a bunker, etc.. during the tribulation is pure fantasy

If there are no non-believers in the millennium who does Satan get to make war?
Rev 20:8-9
So there are non-believers going into the millennium.

 

[Sorn]

No non believers go into the 1000 year kingdom period. And this people living in a bunker, etc.. during the tribulation is pure fantasy

That is an assumption, along with no people living in a very isolated way.
Everyone who enters the millennium will be a believer but believing won't be an issue or sufficient any more. It is more correct to say, can someone who is not a worshiper of Jesus / God enter or exist in the millennium.

At that time (7 year trib on) it will be increasingly obvious Jesus exists & is a deity, but will He be worshiped??

 

[dwb001]

That is an assumption, along with no people living in a very isolated way.
Everyone who enters the millennium will be a believer but believing won't be an issue or sufficient any more. It is more correct to say, can someone who is not a worshiper of Jesus / God enter or exist in the millennium.

At that time (7 year trib on) it will be increasingly obvious Jesus exists & is a deity, but will He be worshiped??

Will Jesus be worshiped... yes, because I plan to worship Him.

Widely worshiped... Nope.
Rev 9:20-21 says that if persons survive they will not repent.

 

[Sorn]

Will Jesus be worshiped... yes, because I plan to worship Him.

Widely worshiped... Nope.
Rev 9:20-21 says that if persons survive they will not repent.

Yes, when Jesus is physically present on the Earth, it won't be about faith anymore, everyone will know He exists & can resurrect people etc. It will then be about will people worship Him, for eternity. Some will still choose not to.

 

[d taylor]

If there are no non-believers in the millennium who does Satan get to make war?
Rev 20:8-9
So there are non-believers going into the millennium.

No, there are no nonbelievers going into the 1000 millennium. The nonbelievers in the 1000 millennium come from believing believers (their children and children of their children, etc...) all Jews will be believers in the 1000 millennium, so the nonbelievers are all gentiles.