Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Douggg]

You see? The AC betrays the Jews after the covenant is signed before the Trib starts. Rev 6:1-2 are the AC in battle mode. You just proved it! 2 Th 2:3's ending words prove the AC is the man of sin from day 1 of the Trib. All of 2 Th 2:3 occurs just before the Trib starts.

"You see? The AC betrays the Jews after the covenant is signed before the Trib 70th week starts."

No, the Antichrist will confirm the covenant by a big speech from the temple mount - the 70th week begins at that point.

"2 Th 2:3's ending words prove the AC is the man of sin from day 1 of the Trib 70th week."

What ending words ? The man of sin does not reveal himself as such until 2Thessalonain2:4, sitting in the temple claiming to have achieved God-hood.

3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness[b] is revealed, the son of destruction, ESV

4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. ESV

------------------------------------------------------

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; KJV

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. KJV

Jeffrey, part of your misunderstanding is because you are reading from the ESV, a highly biased translation that changes the meaning of the text to fit the preconceived notions of the evangelical scholars and pastors who created it.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, this is too trivial for me to comment on it anymore. Use your own terminology. I will use what I was taught by great scholars on the pre-Trib rapture. That was their phrase, and I use it.

The "great scholars" you are following carry forward the created "the Trib", "the tribulation" terms/phrases that Darby created.

You are definitely not alone. I watch a lot of You Tube videos on the end times that the speakers use the same "the tribulation" phrase. I just got through watching this Jan Markell video... that has that terminology. I did not watch it all because it contains the same fundamentals errors I hear all the time - such as the covenant in Daniel 9:27 will be a peace treaty.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

"You see? The AC betrays the Jews after the covenant is signed before the Trib 70th week starts."

No, the Antichrist will confirm the covenant by a big speech from the temple mount - the 70th week begins at that point.

"2 Th 2:3's ending words prove the AC is the man of sin from day 1 of the Trib 70th week."

What ending words ? The man of sin does not reveal himself as such until 2Thessalonain2:4, sitting in the temple claiming to have achieved God-hood.

3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness[b] is revealed, the son of destruction, ESV

4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. ESV

------------------------------------------------------

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; KJV

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. KJV

Jeffrey, part of your misunderstanding is because you are reading from the ESV, a highly biased translation that changes the meaning of the text to fit the preconceived notions of the evangelical scholars and pastors who created it.

First of all, KJV butchered the original 2 Th 2:3 by changing the long-used “departure” to “falling away” in 1611. That was a sea change in verse 3. The original Greek was ἀποστασία. It translates to "apostasia."

The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia first as "defection, revolt;" then secondly as "departure, disappearance."

Therefore, “departure” falls on the “rapture” side only, because it means a physical departure by the emphasis from “disappearance.” That proved that 2 Th 2:3 was about the pre-Trib rapture. KJV was and remains vehemently opposed to the pre-Trib rapture. They replaced “departure” in 2 Th 2:3 with “falling away” to edit out the pre-Trib rapture in 2 Th 2:3.

I have personally asked KJV to state why they made this sea change, and I have asked other folks in the Bible community about it, and no one will even answer. This is a scandal of huge proportios in the Bible publishing world. The pre-Trib rapture was intentionally edited out of 2 Th 2:3 by KJV.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The "great scholars" you are following carry forward the created "the Trib", "the tribulation" terms/phrases that Darby created.

You are definitely not alone. I watch a lot of You Tube videos on the end times that the speakers use the same "the tribulation" phrase. I just got through watching this Jan Markell video... that has that terminology. I did not watch it all because it contains the same fundamentals errors I hear all the time - such as the covenant in Daniel 9:27 will be a peace treaty.

What do you think would be of interest to mr in that video?

 

[keras]

fundamentals errors I hear all the time - such as the covenant in Daniel 9:27 will be a peace treaty

How can a 7 year whatever, be a Covenant in the way you believe?
Isn't it clear that God is not involved in the agreement in Daniel 9:27?
Its time you chipped away some of your set in concrete wrong beliefs, or it will be too late.

As for who and where are the vast multitude of Revelation 7:9, the idea they are raptured Christians in heaven, is totally unscriptural and people who promote this fable are guilty of false teaching.

 

[Douggg]

What do you think would be of interest to mr in that video?

That would have to be something you determine.

 

[Douggg]

How can a 7 year whatever, be a Covenant in the way you believe?

Because the 70 weeks are determined on Daniel's people, the Jews, and Jerusalem.

Daniel was praying about how his people transgressed the Mt. Sinai covenant and thus ended up in Babylonian captivity.

The covenant to be confirmed for 7years will be the same Mt. Sinai covenant because Daniel's people, the Jews,
are looking for it to be confirmed as Moses stipulated in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

The temple, required for the sacrifice to restart, and to be stopped, will have to be rebuilt.

You should make an effort to learn - i.e. from a information standpoint, what the Jews, Daniel's people, are looking for in the messiah at the Judaism 101 site. The Antichrist will appear to them to be that person.

keras, look at what they say, the timing,...

"What Will the Mashiach Do?​

Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)"

So their expectation is that Ezekiel 38, the Gog/Magog event, will precede the arrival of the messiah. And that is what is going to happen. Right after the Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 39, is the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 that coincides with the 7 years of Daniel 9:27. And their messiah, the prince that shall come, in Daniel 9:26 will be the Antichrist who will make the big speech stipulated by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 - confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant, resetting the 7 year cycle, and the 7 years begun..

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

How can a 7 year whatever, be a Covenant in the way you believe?
Isn't it clear that God is not involved in the agreement in Daniel 9:27?
Its time you chipped away some of your set in concrete wrong beliefs, or it will be too late.

As for who and where are the vast multitude of Revelation 7:9, the idea they are raptured Christians in heaven, is totally unscriptural and people who promote this fable are guilty of false teaching.

Daniel 9:27 (ESV): And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

One “week” is seven years (Gen 29:27). The verse above is about Daniel’s 70th week, known as the 7-year Trib or “Trib” (a very convenient abbreviation).

In Daniel 9:27, a covenant is agreed to for seven years. This occurs before the start of the Trib because the covenant is for the next seven years.

The opening of the 1st seal starts the Trib. Rev 6:1-2 (ESV): Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer.

The AC bursts onto the scene in battle mode: “conquering, and to conquer.” That’s unmistakably a military posture. He’ll brutally enforce the covenant by putting “an end to sacrifice and offering” (Daniel 9:27).

This is further validated by the 2nd seal and its wars everywhere on the planet: Rev 6:3-4 (NLT): When the Lamb broke the second seal, I heard the second living being say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

The early Trib is full of wars occurring simultaneously all over this planet. It’s a “kill or be killed” society.

This mayhem builds to the horrific level in the 4th seal, when 25% of the world’s population is brutally killed by wars, famine, disease and wild animals (Rev 6:8).

As for the GM (Great Multitude), they are originally unbelievers in the Trib who were subjected to God’s wrath. Rev 7:16 is about God’s wrath during the Trib from the 4th seal (Rev 6:8 and “famine”) to the 4th bowl (Rev 16:9 and “Everyone was burned by this blast of heat, …”).

The GM are unbelievers in the Trib who repent of their sins and become new coverts. Their salvation is facilitated by the fabulous work of the 144k. The new converts give testimony of Jesus Christ and they are martyred. They are the souls under the altar in Rev 6:9. In Rev 6:11, they are told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters — their fellow servants of Jesus who were to be martyred—had joined them.

Those “fellow servants” and martyrs are found in Rev 20:4. All of the new coverts who were martyred are resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They appear next in Heaven before the throne of God, in Rev 7:9-17. The first word they shout in unison is “Salvation!” In Rev 7:10. They praise God before His throne in Heaven for their salvation from the Trib.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Because the 70 weeks are determined on Daniel's people, the Jews, and Jerusalem.

Daniel was praying about how his people transgressed the Mt. Sinai covenant and thus ended up in Babylonian captivity.

The covenant to be confirmed for 7years will be the same Mt. Sinai covenant because Daniel's people, the Jews,
are looking for it to be confirmed as Moses stipulated in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

The temple, required for the sacrifice to restart, and to be stopped, will have to be rebuilt.

You should make an effort to learn - i.e. from a information standpoint, what the Jews, Daniel's people, are looking for in the messiah at the Judaism 101 site. The Antichrist will appear to them to be that person.

keras, look at what they say, the timing,...

"What Will the Mashiach Do?​

Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)"

So their expectation is that Ezekiel 38, the Gog/Magog event, will precede the arrival of the messiah. And that is what is going to happen. Right after the Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 39, is the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 that coincides with the 7 years of Daniel 9:27. And their messiah, the prince that shall come, in Daniel 9:26 will be the Antichrist who will make the big speech stipulated by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 - confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant, resetting the 7 year cycle, and the 7 years begun..

Gog-Magog occurs in the 2nd seal. It is one of many wars that erupt at that time. The Gog-Magog war is relatively short.

 

[keras]

Because the 70 weeks are determined on Daniel's people, the Jews, and Jerusalem.

Daniels people are everyone whose name is entered in the Book [of Life] Daniel 12:1b
Your idea that they are only Jews, is a blatant addition to scripture and which shows your disregard for Prophesies like Isaiah 22:14, Luke 19:27, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +, that tell of the virtual Jewish demise.
The New Testament makes it perfectly clear: WE the faithful Christian peoples ARE the chosen peoples of God 1 Peter 2:9-10

You should make an effort to learn - i.e. from a information standpoint, what the Jews, Daniel's people, are looking for in the messiah at the Judaism 101 site. The Antichrist will appear to them to be that person.

If this wasn't so hopelessly wrong, it would be funny.

They appear next in Heaven before the throne of God, in Rev 7:9-17. The first word they shout in unison is “Salvation!” In Rev 7:10. They praise God before His throne in Heaven for their salvation from the Trib.

I suppose you are fairly harmless now, as anyone bothering to look at this thread, now does so for entertainment, to get a laugh from the wild imaginings of the escapists and the anti God belief of a Jewish redemption. Also the idiotic belief of preterism.

 

[Douggg]

Gog-Magog occurs in the 2nd seal. It is one of many wars that erupt at that time. The Gog-Magog war is relatively short.

No, the Gog/Magog attack on Israel does not occur in the 2nd seal.

You need to go to the text of Ezekiel 39 to determine that the Gog/Magog attack is before the 7 year 70th week begins.

The Gog/Magog attack on Israel in Ezekiel 39 is followed by the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:8.

The 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 coincide with the 7 years of Daniel 9:27. Jeffrey, Ezekiel 39 establishes the 7 year framework which all of the end times time frames fit (first chart). The time frames (second chart).

Look at the first chart, and read Ezekiel 39:1-6, then Ezekiel 39:9, then Ezekiel 39:17-20, then Ezekiel 39:21-29 while doing so.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

z

Daniels people are everyone whose name is entered in the Book [of Life] Daniel 12:1b
Your idea that they are only Jews, is a blatant addition to scripture and which shows your disregard for Prophesies like Isaiah 22:14, Luke 19:27, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +, that tell of the virtual Jewish demise.
The New Testament makes it perfectly clear: WE the faithful Christian peoples ARE the chosen peoples of God 1 Peter 2:9-10

If this wasn't so hopelessly wrong, it would be funny.

I suppose you are fairly harmless now, as anyone bothering to look at this thread, now does so for entertainment, to get a laugh from the wild imaginings of the escapists and the anti God belief of a Jewish redemption. Also the idiotic belief of preterism.

Please read all the words highlighted below in bold and prove they don’t mean the GM are in Heaven.

Rev 7:9-27 (ESV):
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 “Therefore they are before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
the sun shall not strike them,
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

 

[keras]

Please read all the words highlighted below in bold and prove they don’t mean the GM are in Heaven.

Revelation 7:1-3 sets an earthly scene, Rev 7:4-14 describes Gods people in the Holy Land; after the Sixth Seal. Rev 7:15-17 Prophesies the Eternal state.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Revelation 7:1-3 sets an earthly scene, Rev 7:4-14 describes Gods people in the Holy Land; after the Sixth Seal. Rev 7:15-17 Prophesies the Eternal state.

You are only right about Rev 7:1-3. Rev 7 has two halves: verses 1-8 and verses 9-17. Verses 1-8 occur years before verses 9-17.

The Holy Land is not mentioned in Rev 7. Here are Rev 7:10-11 (ESV): and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

The four living creatures are only found in Heaven. That proves the GM are in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

 

[keras]

You are only right about Rev 7:1-3

Rev 7:4 or any other verse, does not mention any change of location.
The GM wave palm branches, Do palms grow in heaven?

The four living creatures are only found in Heaven.

Another of your unsupported opinions; wrong as usual. Ezekiel 1:1-28

 

[Douggg]

Rev 7:4 or any other verse, does not mention any change of location.
The GM wave palm branches, Do palms grow in heaven?

Yes.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Rev 7:4 or any other verse, does not mention any change of location.
The GM wave palm branches, Do palms grow in heaven?

Another of your unsupported opinions; wrong as usual. Ezekiel 1:1-28

Keras, the four living creatures in Ezekiel 1:6 & 10 are not the same living creatures that operate exclusively in Heaven.

Each of the living creatures in Ezekiel 1:6 & 10 has four faces and only four wings.

In Rev 4:6-8, each living creature has only one face, but six wings.

There are more living creatures than the four in Heaven. The four living creatures in Heaven operate around the throne of God and they never leave Heaven.

Ezekiel 1:6 (NKJV): Each one had four faces, and each one had four wings.

Ezekiel 1:10 (NKJV): As for the likeness of their faces, each had the face of a man; each of the four had the face of a lion on the right side, each of the four had the face of an ox on the left side, and each of the four had the face of an eagle.

Rev 4:6-8 (ESV): and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal.

And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind: 7 the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like an eagle in flight. 8 And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say,

“Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!”

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Rev 7:4 or any other verse, does not mention any change of location.
The GM wave palm branches, Do palms grow in heaven?

Another of your unsupported opinions; wrong as usual. Ezekiel 1:1-28

Rev 7:1-8 occur very early on the Trib. They are about the sealing of the 144k and the 144k getting their start at their mission to save a multitude. Their first locational change is in Rev 9:4. That is the earliest verse that proves one thing. Their appearance in Rev 9:4 implies they are already well-established in their mission (because of their sealing). Hence the probability of their mission beginning much earlier, as before the 4th seal.

We know that probability is very high because of the many martyrs under the altar in Rev 6:9-10. They are former unbelievers who entered the Trib. Along came the 144k, and those unbelievers were converted. They then learned to give testimony of Jesus Christ and were martyred specifically for that (Rev 6:9). Rev 6:11 says they must wait a little longer for their “fellow servants” to BE KILLED as they were.

Those fellow servants are found in Rev 20:4. In the last sentence of Rev 20:4, all of the martyrs in the Trib are resurrected together. They all appear in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17, giving profuse thanks to God for their salvation.

Rev 7:9-17 happen years after Rev 7:1-8. Verses 9-17 are the result of the multi-year ministry by the 144k. The fruits of their labor are abundantly clear: their ministry was very successful as it facilitated the salvation of a multitude.

 

[keras]

Rev 7:9-17 happen years after Rev 7:1-8. Verses 9-17 are the result of the multi-year ministry by the 144k. The fruits of their labor are abundantly clear: their ministry was very successful as it facilitated the salvation of a multitude.

So the great multitude of Rev 7:9, according to Jeffery, are people converted after the Sixth Seal event?
I thought your belief and that of all pre-trib rapture believers, was that they are the Christian Church, whisked away BEFORE any tribulation.

Rapture to heaven believers constantly contradict themselves and look very silly.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

So the great multitude of Rev 7:9, according to Jeffery, are people converted after the Sixth Seal event?
I thought your belief and that of all pre-trib rapture believers, was that they are the Christian Church, whisked away BEFORE any tribulation.

Rapture to heaven believers constantly contradict themselves and look very silly.

Keras, you misquoted me. The 2nd seal causes millions of deaths of unbelievers from all the wars all over the world (Rev 6:4). The 4th seal kills billions of unbelievers when 25% of the world’s population is brutally killed by wars, famine, pestilence and wild animals (Rev 6:8), all within a matter of months.

There are millions of unbelievers who, no later than the 4th seal, come to their senses and repent. They are guided to that glorious end by the 144k. Those who repent are clearly taught to give testimony of Jesus Christ. Those new converts give testimony with zeal, and they are eventually killed as martyrs (the most noble biblical death).

Upon being killed, they become the souls under the altar mentioned in Rev 6:9. They cry out to Jesus in verse 10 for justice against those who murdered them. They’re told in verse 11 to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Those fellow servants who were to be killed as they themselves had been are found in Rev 20:4 (second sentence). In the last sentence of Rev 20:4, all of the martyrs from the Trib are resurrected together. There are several million of them (“a great multitude that no one could number” — Rev 7:9).

They appear next in Heaven before the throne of God in Rev 7:9-10 singing profuse thanks to God for their salvation from the Trib.

The GM are all former unbelievers who repent in the Trib and who give testimony of Jesus Christ and are martyred in the Trib. We know they are former unbelievers because of Rev 7:16 (ESV):

They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
the sun shall not strike them,
nor any scorching heat.

The “shall hunger no more” is the famine that begins in the 4th seal: Rev 6:8 (ESV): … And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine …

“The sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat” is found in the 4th bowl: Rev 16:8-9 (ESV): The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9 They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory.

There are no believers who enter the Trib. The Trib is about repenting or facing eternal condemnation. Romans 8:1 (ESV): There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.