Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Douggg]

Daniel 9:27 (ESV): And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

"And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week," means the covenant is made first, before the 70th week.

Then the first half is discussed: "and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering."

No, the half it is talking about is for the second half of the week that the sacrifice and offering will be stopped. There will be no sacrifices and offerings taking place in the second half of the week.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 6:1-2 (ESV): Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer.

The AC bursts onto the scene "conquering, and to conquer" putting an end to sacrifice and offering.

No, the Antichrist is not said to be putting an end to sacrifice and offering in Revelation 6:1-2.

The rider is on a white horse because he is perceived to be a messiah figure. That he is given a crown is that he will be anointed the king of Israel thought-to-be messiah.

As such, he will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle stipulated by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No, the Antichrist is not said to be putting an end to sacrifice and offering in Revelation 6:1-2.

The rider is on a white horse because he is perceived to be a messiah figure. That he is given a crown is that he will be anointed the king of Israel thought-to-be messiah.

As such, he will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle stipulated by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.



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You are changing the meaning of Rev 6:1-2, and I can't let it rest, Rev 6:1-2 (ESV): Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer.

The AC is introduced in the 1st seal in battle mode. The 2nd seal is all about simultaneous wars all over the planet. The whole planet is in a "kill or be killed" mode. You can't deny this biblical context. This is not a time for friendly negotiations. This proves the covenant is established just prior to the start of the Trib, as Daniel 9:27 clearly makes the case for same. The AC is groomed long before Rev 6:1-2. It is believed he's one of the folks in the G20.

You're misunderstanding the wording of Daniel 9:27. The covenant agreed to ("a covenant for one week") is for seven years. It's in the middle of those seven years that an end is brought to sacrifice and offering. Then, the abomination -- the midpoint --- when the AC reveals himself as a total traitor to the covenant. The 2W (Two Witnesses) start their ministerial campaign (Matt 24:14) for 1,260 days. All hell breaks loose in Jerusalem (Matt 24:15-19). Satan is thrown to Earth and it's he who is causing the fleeing in Matt 24:16.

 

[Douggg]

You are changing the meaning of Rev 6:1-2, and I can't let it rest, Rev 6:1-2 (ESV): Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer.

Jeffrey , are you aware of what the Jews (Judaism) are expecting of their king of Israel, messiah figure ?

From the Judaism 101 site, Mashiach: The Messiah - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ), regarding the messiah....

"He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel."

So, "conquering, and to conquer" is what the Jews are expecting of their messiah figure.

The little horn person who will become the Antichrist, enters the middle east, coming from north and west of Israel, with a strong army (that of the EU).

KJV (King James Version)
Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

ESV (English Standard Version)
Daniel 8:9 Out of one of them came a little horn, which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the glorious land.

You're misunderstanding the wording of Daniel 9:27. The covenant agreed to ("a covenant for one week") is for seven years. It's in the middle of those seven years that an end is brought to sacrifice and offering.

Jeffrey, you indicated that the covenant was a covenant for peace. If so, then the world as a consequence will be under the terms of that covenant will be at peace and not in tribulation. Claiming that the 7 years is all tribulation is inaccurate.

Stopping sacrifice and offering in the middle of the seven years, means up to that time sacrifice and offering of the temple activities will be going on up to that point.

The world will not be in tribulation while the temple sacrifices and offering will be going on.

It's in the middle of those seven years that an end is brought to sacrifice and offering. Then, the abomination -- the midpoint --- when the AC reveals himself as a total traitor to the covenant.

Jeffrey, the covenant that Daniel was praying about in Daniel 9 that his people had broke was the Mt. Sinai covenant.

The Mt. Sinai Covenant will be the covenant that will be confirmed for 7 years, the 7 year cycle that Moses stipulated in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

KJV (King James Version)
Deuteronomy 31:
10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,
11 When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

ESV (English Standard Version)
Deuteronomy 31:
9 Then Moses wrote this law and gave it to the priests, the sons of Levi, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel.
10 And Moses commanded them, “At the end of every seven years, at the set time in the year of release, at the Feast of Booths,

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Jeffrey, you have to understand that the role of the Antichrist will be that of the king of Israel thought-to-be messiah.

Being a great military leader will be part of the expectation that the Jews will have of him.

Confirming the Mt Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle that Moses stipulated will be something the Antichrist will do. The Antichrist's speech from the temple mount will begin the 7 years. The world will then (erroneously) think it has entered the messianic age of peace and safety.

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I am keeping an eye on Zelensky, a Jew, and a great military leader (like the Jews are expecting). Ukraine is in its final stages to becoming a EU member nation. Zelensky appeals to the EU for military support. Zelensky is fighting against Russia - the strong component to what will be the Gog/Magog group.

 

[Douggg]

 

[Douggg]

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Jeffrey , are you aware of what the Jews (Judaism) are expecting of their king of Israel, messiah figure ?

From the Judaism 101 site, Mashiach: The Messiah - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ), regarding the messiah....

"He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel."

So, "conquering, and to conquer" is what the Jews are expecting of their messiah figure.

The little horn person who will become the Antichrist, enters the middle east, coming from north and west of Israel, with a strong army (that of the EU).

KJV (King James Version)
Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

ESV (English Standard Version)
Daniel 8:9 Out of one of them came a little horn, which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the glorious land.


Jeffrey, you indicated that the covenant was a covenant for peace. If so, then the world as a consequence will be under the terms of that covenant will be at peace and not in tribulation. Claiming that the 7 years is all tribulation is inaccurate.

Stopping sacrifice and offering in the middle of the seven years, means up to that time sacrifice and offering of the temple activities will be going on up to that point.

The world will not be in tribulation while the temple sacrifices and offering will be going on.




Jeffrey, the covenant that Daniel was praying about in Daniel 9 that his people had broke was the Mt. Sinai covenant.

The Mt. Sinai Covenant will be the covenant that will be confirmed for 7 years, the 7 year cycle that Moses stipulated in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

KJV (King James Version)
Deuteronomy 31:
10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,
11 When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

ESV (English Standard Version)
Deuteronomy 31:
9 Then Moses wrote this law and gave it to the priests, the sons of Levi, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel.
10 And Moses commanded them, “At the end of every seven years, at the set time in the year of release, at the Feast of Booths,

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeffrey, you have to understand that the role of the Antichrist will be that of the king of Israel thought-to-be messiah.

Being a great military leader will be part of the expectation that the Jews will have of him.

Confirming the Mt Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle that Moses stipulated will be something the Antichrist will do. The Antichrist's speech from the temple mount will begin the 7 years. The world will then (erroneously) think it has entered the messianic age of peace and safety.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am keeping an eye on Zelensky, a Jew, and a great military leader (like the Jews are expecting). Ukraine is in its final stages to becoming a EU member nation. Zelensky appeals to the EU for military support. Zelensky is fighting against Russia - the strong component to what will be the Gog/Magog group.

We are not going to agree until the related Scriptures play out. You keep on citing verses that are inapplicable to the Trib (Deuteronomy 31:9-13) and the AC.

 

[Douggg]

We are not going to agree until the related Scriptures play out. You keep on citing verses that are inapplicable to the Trib (Deuteronomy 31:9-13) and the AC.

It is not "Trib". It is 70th week. Daniel 9:27 - 70th week.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It is not "Trib". It is 70th week. Daniel 9:27 - 70th week.

The Trib is seven years long featuring 21 judgments of God's wrath on an unbelieving world. That is the 70th week.

 

[Douggg]

The Trib is seven years long featuring 21 judgments of God's wrath on an unbelieving world. That is the 70th week.

The 70th week is not called the "Trib" anywhere in the bible. God's wrath is not unleased on the world until the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The 70th week is not called the "Trib" anywhere in the bible. God's wrath is not unleased on the world until the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.


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Matt 24:21 (ESV): For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

The second half of the Trib is called "great tribulation." That is because of the extremely severe bowl judgments (Rev 16). However, the seals and trumpets (Rev 6 -11) are very brutal in their own right. The early seals kill over 25% of the world's population (Rev 6:8). Millions of other people are obviously injured, made homeless, etc. Famine kicks in worldwide in the 4th seal (Rev 6:8). The first half of the Trib is commonly referred to as tribulation whereas the second half is "great tribulation."

Rev 6:2 (ESV) and he came out conquering, and to conquer.

The definition of "conquer" in Rev 6:2 is a military definition: overcome and take control of (a place or people) by use of military force.

That is not how you approach peaceful negotiations. Daniel 9:27 (ESV): And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, --- That means the covenant comes first, and since it is for seven years, it is a covenant established before Rev 6:1-2.

 

[Douggg]

And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, --- That means the covenant comes first, and since it is for seven years, it is a covenant established before Rev 6:1-2.

Jeffrey,please clarify. Do you believe that Jesus returns at the end of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 ?

The first half of the Trib is commonly referred to as tribulation whereas the second half is "great tribulation."

So, now you are saying "the Trib" is not the 70th week, but only the first half of it instead?

Just drop the Trib term and go with the 70th week. Refer to your rapture timing view as "Pre-70th week". That way everyone will know what you rapture time view is. Pre-70th week rapture. rapture before the 70th week begins.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Jeffrey,please clarify. Do you believe that Jesus returns at the end of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 ?


So, now you are saying "the Trib" is not the 70th week, but only the first half of it instead?

Just drop the Trib term and go with the 70th week. Refer to your rapture timing view as "Pre-70th week". That way everyone will know what you rapture time view is. Pre-70th week rapture. rapture before the 70th week begins.

Trib is short for all you claim. I use abbreviations that are recognized on this site.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It is not "Trib". It is 70th week. Daniel 9:27 - 70th week.

Doug, you can adopt all terms you want. Trib is long-known to mean the Tribulation Period that is Daniel's 70th week.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

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The AC hates Jews. Why are Jews allowed to be persecuted in Rev 13:7?

 

[Douggg]

The AC hates Jews. Why are Jews allowed to be persecuted in Rev 13:7?

The Jews will reject the Antichrist as their king of Israel, thought-to-be messiah when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4.

Being rejected by the Jews, the Antichrist turned revealed man of sin, will persecute them - because once the Antichrist reveals himself to be the man of sin, the Jews will realize their mistake in thinking he was their messiah, and their blindness will be removed and they turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation.

 

[Douggg]

Trib is short for all you claim. I use abbreviations that are recognized on this site.

I did a Google search and conclude the first recorded usage of the term "pre-trib" was by John Nelson Darby in the 1830's.

I suspect that John Nelson Darby may also have coined "the tribulation" phrase for the 7 year 70th week. Do you have any information about the phrase "the tribulation" first started being used ?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

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That timeline is as kooky as it can be. The seals do not get opened as implied. Seal 7 is in Rev 8:1. The first trumpet is in Rev 8:6. The 7th trumpet is in Rev 11:15. All those occur before the midpoint. You see? None of the trumpets are part of the great tribulation (second half of the Trib). All of the bowls are in Rev 16. No seals are in the second half. No trumpets are in the second half. You show seals and trumpets in the second half. That is certifiably kooky.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The Jews will reject the Antichrist as their king of Israel, thought-to-be messiah when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4.

Being rejected by the Jews, the Antichrist turned revealed man of sin, will persecute them - because once the Antichrist reveals himself to be the man of sin, the Jews will realize their mistake in thinking he was their messiah, and their blindness will be removed and they turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation.

You see? The AC betrays the Jews after the covenant is signed before the Trib starts. Rev 6:1-2 are the AC in battle mode. You just proved it! 2 Th 2:3's ending words prove the AC is the man of sin from day 1 of the Trib. All of 2 Th 2:3 occurs just before the Trib starts.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I did a Google search and conclude the first recorded usage of the term "pre-trib" was by John Nelson Darby in the 1830's.

I suspect that John Nelson Darby may also have coined "the tribulation" phrase for the 7 year 70th week. Do you have any information about the phrase "the tribulation" first started being used ?

Doug, this is too trivial for me to comment on it anymore. Use your own terminology. I will use what I was taught by great scholars on the pre-Trib rapture. That was their phrase, and I use it.