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JesusFollowerForever

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What a random selection of verses. Nobody claimed that Paul is greater than Jesus or anything like that. I claimed that we are not supposed to copy the life of Christ, because we are not Jews and our environment is different.

Paul got the mandate (from Christ) to teach Gentiles what to do. He had the authority to say what applies to us and what does not.
if you follow Paul instead of Christ, you follow the servant instead of the master, that is certain.

Peter did get the mandate to teach to the gentiles, God appointed him:

Act 15:7 After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.
 
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trophy33

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if you follow Paul instead of Christ, you follow the servant instead of the master, that is certain.

Peter did get the mandate to teach to the gentiles, God appointed him:

Act 15:7 After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.
We are not talking about following one instead of another. We are talking about what applies to our Gentile life. Jesus was circumcised, we are not. Jesus had disciples, I do not have any. Jesus was not married, many Christians are married. Etc.

We are not supposed to copy the life of Jesus, that is obvious. And regarding what from the Jewish environment applies to us morally or theologically, then the apostle of Gentiles is our main source (except of the Holy Spirit, conscience and elementary consensus among Christians). Jesus was addressing Gentiles very rarely. He was not sent to Gentiles, in his body.
 
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The Liturgist

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We are not supposed to copy the life of Jesus, that is obvious.

Some monastics and missionaries live extremely Christ-centered lives. St. John of Kronstadt, St. Seraphim of Sarov, and perhaps some would argue St. Francis of Assisi are examples of this approach. St. Anthony the Great, St. Paul the Hermit and various martyrs such as St. Ignatius of Antioch certainly were. So I would not say “We are not supposed to…” but rather that we are not required to.

Even St. John the Beloved Disciple did not receive a crown of martyrdom unlike the other Holy Apostles, but he did receive the crown of a confessor for his exile on Patmos.
 
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trophy33

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So I would not say “We are not supposed to…” but rather that we are not required to.
I would stick to "we are not supposed to", just because it is not even recommended to us and we are not encouraged to do it.

Some few people may choose to live an extremely similar life to Jesus - it is not forbidden either. However, I would not put monastics or hermits in this category at all.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You didn’t quote me in this post. He didn’t say anything about the location being changed
Sure it does

2 Cor 3:3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

Right where God placed His law in the heart Heb 8:10

Jesus said quoting from the Ten Commandments when we obey our rules over obeying the commandments of God said ones heart is far from Him because it is rebelling against what God placed there His law Rom 8:7-8. Its going to be a tough argument to say the Ten Commandments is not God’s law when God says it is Exo 20:6 right in the Ten Jesus said it was too Mat 15:3-14
he said that the laws written written on stones brought death
Yes, the wages of sin is death even in the NT Rom 6:23, God law is holy, just and good Rom 7:12 why God’s law is so important because it shows us our sin Rom 3:20 Rom 7:7 covering our sins we will not prosper Pro 28:13 so if we don’t know we are sinning , we won’t go to Jesus to confess, repent and help us turn from, Jesus came to save us from our sin Mat 1:21, not in them Heb 10:26-30
and that it would fade away.

It doesn’t say the stones would away….is says the countenance of Moses face faded away after spending time in God’s presence


2 Cor 3: 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,

Exo 34:29 Now it was so, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the Testimony were in Moses’ hand when he came down from the mountain), that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone while he talked with Him. 30 So when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him. 31 Then Moses called to them, and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned to him; and Moses talked with them. 32 Afterward all the children of Israel came near, and he gave them as commandments all that the Lord had spoken with him on Mount Sinai. 33 And when Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil on his face. 34 But whenever Moses went in before the Lord to speak with Him, he would take the veil off until he came out; and he would come out and speak to the children of Israel whatever he had been commanded. 35 And whenever the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses’ face shone, then Moses would put the veil on his face again, until he went in to speak with Him.


The term fade away doesn’t imply relocation is implies to be done away with, replaced with the law of the Spirit. The implications in the passage indicate two different sets of laws not the exact same laws.
The New Covenant is established on better promises according to God Heb8:6 not better laws. He promised He would not the words of His covenant Psa 89:34 in the NC places His law right in our heart and He is the one doing Heb 8:10 John 14:15-18 , not based on our efforts if we cooperate with Him, but based on what God will do, which is a much better promise.
 
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JesusFollowerForever

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We are not talking about following one instead of another. We are talking about what applies to our Gentile life. Jesus was circumcised, we are not. Jesus had disciples, I do not have any. Jesus was not married, many Christians are married. Etc.

We are not supposed to copy the life of Jesus, that is obvious. And regarding what from the Jewish environment applies to us morally or theologically, then the apostle of Gentiles is our main source (except of the Holy Spirit, conscience and elementary consensus among Christians). Jesus was addressing Gentiles very rarely. He was not sent to Gentiles, in his body

@The Liturgist @trophy33
The claim that we do not need to follow Jesus' life because His specific actions, such as being circumcised or unmarried, don't apply to us as Gentiles, overlooks the broader essence of His teachings. While it's true that certain cultural practices, such as circumcision or marriage, were specific to Jesus' Jewish context, the call to follow Jesus goes far beyond mimicking His personal lifestyle in a literal sense. Instead, His teachings focus on a transformation of the heart and mind, aimed at loving God and others, living humbly, and embracing sacrifice for the sake of others.

Jesus made it clear that to follow Him meant to adopt His attitude and way of living, which were centered on self-sacrifice, love, and service. In Luke 9:23, He calls His followers to take up their cross daily and follow Him, which points to a life of denial, service, and devotion to God. Jesus' invitation wasn’t just about following His actions but aligning with His values and heart for others. The central theme of His teachings, especially in passages like Matthew 22:37-39, emphasizes the greatest commandment: to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind, and to love our neighbors as ourselves. This command is not bound by cultural or historical context; it’s a universal call to live in a way that reflects God’s love.


Moreover, Jesus taught the importance of humility and service, highlighting that the greatest in His kingdom are those who serve others. In Mark 9:35, He made it clear that greatness in God's eyes is about being the least and serving all. These principles are foundational for all believers, regardless of their cultural background or historical context, and they reflect the very heart of Jesus' message.

Though Jesus’ earthly ministry was initially focused on the Jewish people, He made it clear that His mission was not limited to them. While He came first to the lost sheep of Israel, as stated in Matthew 15:24, He also made known that His message would eventually extend to all nations. In John 10:16, He refers to "other sheep" who are not of the Jewish fold, indicating that His mission would include Gentiles as well. After His resurrection, in Matthew 28:19, He gave the Great Commission, sending His disciples to make disciples of all nations, showing that His salvation is for everyone, not just the Jews.

In Acts 1:8, Jesus told His disciples that they would be His witnesses not only in Jerusalem but also in Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth, signaling the global reach of His mission. Jesus' ministry was always meant to be inclusive, embracing people from all backgrounds. His teachings about loving God, loving others, and serving humbly transcend cultural boundaries, and these are the principles that apply to all believers, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.

In the end, while we may not be called to follow every detail of Jesus' life in terms of Jewish customs or His personal situation, His teachings on love, humility, service, and sacrifice remain foundational for anyone who wishes to follow Him. These principles are as relevant today as they were in Jesus' time and continue to guide believers.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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@The Liturgist @trophy33
The claim that we do not need to follow Jesus' life because His specific actions, such as being circumcised or unmarried, don't apply to us as Gentiles, overlooks the broader essence of His teachings. While it's true that certain cultural practices, such as circumcision or marriage, were specific to Jesus' Jewish context, the call to follow Jesus goes far beyond mimicking His personal lifestyle in a literal sense. Instead, His teachings focus on a transformation of the heart and mind, aimed at loving God and others, living humbly, and embracing sacrifice for the sake of others.

Jesus made it clear that to follow Him meant to adopt His attitude and way of living, which were centered on self-sacrifice, love, and service. In Luke 9:23, He calls His followers to take up their cross daily and follow Him, which points to a life of denial, service, and devotion to God. Jesus' invitation wasn’t just about following His actions but aligning with His values and heart for others. The central theme of His teachings, especially in passages like Matthew 22:37-39, emphasizes the greatest commandment: to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind, and to love our neighbors as ourselves. This command is not bound by cultural or historical context; it’s a universal call to live in a way that reflects God’s love.


Moreover, Jesus taught the importance of humility and service, highlighting that the greatest in His kingdom are those who serve others. In Mark 9:35, He made it clear that greatness in God's eyes is about being the least and serving all. These principles are foundational for all believers, regardless of their cultural background or historical context, and they reflect the very heart of Jesus' message.

Though Jesus’ earthly ministry was initially focused on the Jewish people, He made it clear that His mission was not limited to them. While He came first to the lost sheep of Israel, as stated in Matthew 15:24, He also made known that His message would eventually extend to all nations. In John 10:16, He refers to "other sheep" who are not of the Jewish fold, indicating that His mission would include Gentiles as well. After His resurrection, in Matthew 28:19, He gave the Great Commission, sending His disciples to make disciples of all nations, showing that His salvation is for everyone, not just the Jews.

In Acts 1:8, Jesus told His disciples that they would be His witnesses not only in Jerusalem but also in Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth, signaling the global reach of His mission. Jesus' ministry was always meant to be inclusive, embracing people from all backgrounds. His teachings about loving God, loving others, and serving humbly transcend cultural boundaries, and these are the principles that apply to all believers, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.

In the end, while we may not be called to follow every detail of Jesus' life in terms of Jewish customs or His personal situation, His teachings on love, humility, service, and sacrifice remain foundational for anyone who wishes to follow Him. These principles are as relevant today as they were in Jesus' time and continue to guide believers.
Personally, if I had a son I would get him circumcised, obviously this can’t save anyone, which Paul was correcting Jew Acts 15:1, no different than infant baptism can’t save someone, it has to be a conscious decision to want to serve and submit to God. Most doctors circumcise boys to this day because of the many health benefits. God knows what He is doing.

Jesus wants us to abide in Him and we do that be following the same commandments

John 15:10 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
1 John 2:6 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

We can only do this if we are connected to Christ

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

There is no other way

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

So we need to keep the same commandments that Jesus kept, Jesus kept the Sabbath as did the apostles.

Thank you for all your great posts and scriptures.

God bless!
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Liturgist

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just because it is not even recommended to us and we are not encouraged to do it.

It is not only recommended, but indeed we are in fact exhorted by Christ our True God to be perfect even as the Father is perfect, and He is indeed perfect, and Christ perfected our human nature on the Cross, which directly enables our salvation according to the Early Church Fathers.

We can see in the Apostles an attempt to follow in the path of Christ, and in female saints an attempt to follow in the path of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Indeed, St. Thomas a Kemper wrote a book, The Imitation of Christ, on this subject, which is widely regarded in Western Christian circles, and the Orthodox have a number of books of instructive hagiography and works about asceticism and life in Christ such as the Life of St. Anthony, the Sayings of the Desert Fathers, the Way of the Pilgrim, the Arena, the Philokalia, de Incarnatione, On The Prayer of Jesus, The Ladder of Divine Ascent, and My Life In Christ, among others.

All Christians are called to make ourselves more perfect icons of God who we are created in the image of.
 
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The Liturgist

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However, I would not put monastics or hermits in this category at all.

Forgive me, but that makes no sense, if you are familiar with the lives of say, St. Seraphim of Sarov, or Abba Sisoes, or St. Anthony the Great, or St. Paul the Hermit, or any of the Stylite saints, or even St. Moses the Black, we find among this group many who triumphed over sin, some of whom had been terrible sinners, but wound up being splendid icons of Christ our True God in their love for humanity, their continual prayer, their ability to work miracles, their willingness to bless people, and their victory over temptation.
 
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The Liturgist

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Most doctors circumcise boys to this day because of the many health benefits

That’s not true. Even in the US medical circumcision of infants is no longer widespread due to health problems and risks, and in Europe it is almost unheard of. I myself am one of many who believes circumcision of infants should be illegal except for religious reasons, and that medical doctors should be prohibited from engaging in for reasons of the Hippocratic Oath*, it unless they are also clergy, for example, mohels. Furthermore, mohels (Jewish rabbis who specialize in circumcision) and other clergy who circumcise should be required to undergo extensive training from an accredited educational institution in their faith and be subject to background checks, for obvious reasons.

I also believe it should be illegal to circumcise any minor child over the age of 9 months, due to the significant amount of pain involved. I regard the circumcision of boys past the age of 9 months to be an incredibly cruel practice, reminiscent of FGM, which is also performed only on older children who thus experience and remember the pain and trauma, whereas in the case of those under 9 months, it is likely they won’t remember it, and in Judaism it is supposed to be done within eight days anyway, so 9 months provides a huge window, more than enough to account for medical issues (if an infant is not healthy enough to be circumcized after nine months, then it might as well wait until they are grown).

* The Hippocratic Oath apparently notwithstanding number of pediatric surgeons and urologists made quite a lot of money circumcising primarily Christian children with no sound medical reason. And things can and did, and still do, go wrong. You don’t want to know what happens when too much of the foreskin is cut away by accident, but suffice it to say there are a number of very unpleasant, life-harminig consequences that can result from circumcision even when performed by doctors. I would favor a total ban were it not for the objections of the Jewish community.
 
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BNR32FAN

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It doesn’t say the stones would away….is says the countenance of Moses face faded away after spending time in God’s presence
Wrong

But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭7‬-‭11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

In the term “fading as IT was” the word IT is referring to the ministry of death. Unless you think we’re still under the ministry of death and it still remains in place.
 
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RandyPNW

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Can you please point out where it says Moses in these verses?

Deut 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Exo 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

Even Moses didn't take credit for the Ten Commandments, Jesus said this John 5:46 about not believing Moses
To be honest, I don't think proof of anything will change your mind. Moses never takes credit for God's Law, except that he obviously became the means of transmitting God's laws to Israel. Moses is attributed with this task throughout the Bible, including the entire Law as written in Genesis through Deuteronomy.
 
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RandyPNW

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The penalty of the law was what was nailed to the cross not the law itself.
Colossians 2:14 states that Christ "wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us" and "nailed it to the cross." Some believe this means God's law was abolished, but that contradicts Jesus' own words. In Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus clearly said He did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it, and that not even the smallest part would pass away until all is accomplished. The key phrase in Colossians 2:14, "handwriting of requirements," refers to a legal debt or record of guilt, not God's moral law. In ancient times, debts were written down and canceled when paid. Jesus nailed our record of sins to the cross by taking our punishment upon Himself. The law itself was never against us—sin and its consequences were. Deuteronomy 6:24 states that God's commandments were given for our good, while Romans 6:23 affirms that sin leads to death. Ephesians 2:15 further distinguishes between God's eternal moral law and the temporary ordinances that pointed to Christ. Paul's own words in Romans 7:12 affirm that the law is holy and good. Colossians 2:14 speaks of forgiveness, not the abolition of God's commandments. Jesus upheld the law and called His followers to obey it, proving that the law was not nailed to the cross—our sins were.
Of course, God's Eternal Law was not nailed to the Cross! But the Law of Moses was, in fact, nailed to the Cross because Jesus himself was dying *under the Law. *

He was dying, therefore, under very specific conditions, in order to free Israel from a debt they could not pay under the Law of Moses. All of their sacrifices and offerings fell short of providing relief from their Sin Debt and could never result in Eternal Life.

Jesus came to fulfill the Law of Moses--he did not come to destroy it. But he did come to end it by providing, in its place, his own eternal atonement.

While Israel remained under the Law, which is when Jesus said this, they were, of course, still required to follow the Law. But Jesus made it clear that the righteousness of the Pharisees would be insufficient, as a Law-based righteousness, to lead to eternal righteousness.

Something coming from himself would have to exceed it, which is what he provided through his resurrection and through his deliverance from the system of Law that never fully atoned for them. Thus, Jesus ended the Law by fulfilling what it had meant to portend, namely a greater righteousness that leads to final salvation.

Mat 5.17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

All of this was fulfilled at the Cross, which ended the system of Law, or the righteousness of the Pharisees. The entire realm of Creation was focused upon the necessity of Man's redemption at the Cross, and could never complete its epoch unless Christ died for God's creature, Man.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Jesus said quoting from the Ten Commandments when we obey our rules over obeying the commandments of God said ones heart is far from Him because it is rebelling against what God placed there His law Rom 8:7-8. Its going to be a tough argument to say the Ten Commandments is not God’s law when God says it is Exo 20:6 right in the Ten Jesus said it was too Mat 15:3-14
Nobody is obeying “our rules” Paul specifically stated that no one is to judge us in regard to food or drink or a sabbath day. I know you don’t believe it but everyone else for the last 2000 has, so…
 
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BNR32FAN

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Can you please point out where it says Moses in these verses?

Deut 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Exo 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

Even Moses didn't take credit for the Ten Commandments, Jesus said this John 5:46 about not believing Moses

Moses is not God. God is the Creator of the Universe; Moses is the creation.

Why Jesus said quoting from this same unit of Ten

Mat 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the [b]commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people [c]draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”


If you keep reading Jesus said following this path, our own commandments, over obeying God's leads one in a ditch. Not the path Jesus told us to take.
This sounds exactly like what the Judiazers would’ve said to the Galatians. If you’re going to quote from Exodus about which commandments we are supposed to keep I would suggest quoting from Exodus 24

Then Moses came and recounted to the people ALL THE WORDS of the Lord and ALL THE ORDINANCES;

What words of the Lord and ordinances? Everything God gave to Moses from chapter 20 to chapter 23. God didn’t only give 10 commandments, that’s not ALL THE WORDS THE LORD SPOKE.

and all the people answered with one voice and said, “ALL THE WORDS which the Lord has spoken we will do!” Moses wrote down ALL THE WORDS of the Lord.

All the words of the Lord were written down in the Book of the Covenant BEFORE God wrote the 10 commandments in the stone tablets.

Then he arose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain with twelve pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel. He sent young men of the sons of Israel, and they offered burnt offerings and sacrificed young bulls as peace offerings to the Lord. Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and the other half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!” So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, “Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord has made with you in accordance with ALL THESE WORDS.””
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24‬:‭3‬-‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

ALL THESE WORDS” meaning all the words Moses wrote down in the book of the covenant that he just read to them which consisted of everything God had spoken to Moses from Exodus 20 to Exodus 23, not only what God had spoken to him in chapter 20.

You claim that others are obeying their own laws instead of the laws of God when you’re doing the exact same thing. You’re not observing ALL THE WORDS OF THE LORD. You’re picking and choosing which laws you want to observe and which ones you don’t want to observe. You repeatedly use Jesus as the example we’re supposed to follow BUT YOU DON’T FOLLOW HIS EXAMPLE. JESUS KEPT THE ENTIRE MOSUAC LAW, YOU DON’T.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Nobody is obeying “our rules” Paul specifically stated that no one is to judge us in regard to food or drink or a sabbath day. I know you don’t believe it but everyone else for the last 2000 has, so…
God never told us to follow the crowd, He told us to follow Him. Jesus kept the Sabbath, God kept the Sabbath, the apostles kept the Sabbath, they are the minority, but who we are to follow. Our rules are anything we replace with what God commanded. As far as I can tell, the Sabbath is a commandment of God Exo 20:8-11 written by God Himself.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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This sounds exactly like what the Judiazers would’ve said to the Galatians.
Actually no. According to Jesus and Paul they were the ones not keeping God's commandments but obeying their own rules instead, so you have it backward.

Case in point

Mat 15:1 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”

3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the [b]commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people [c]draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’


Romans 2: 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?


If you’re going to quote from Exodus about which commandments we are supposed to keep I would suggest quoting from Exodus 24

Then Moses came and recounted to the people ALL THE WORDS of the Lord and ALL THE ORDINANCES;

What words of the Lord and ordinances? Everything God gave to Moses from chapter 20 to chapter 23. God didn’t only give 10 commandments, that’s not ALL THE WORDS THE LORD SPOKE.

and all the people answered with one voice and said, “ALL THE WORDS which the Lord has spoken we will do!” Moses wrote down ALL THE WORDS of the Lord.

All the words of the Lord
were written down in the Book of the Covenant BEFORE God wrote the 10 commandments in the stone tablets.

Then he arose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain with twelve pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel. He sent young men of the sons of Israel, and they offered burnt offerings and sacrificed young bulls as peace offerings to the Lord. Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and the other half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!” So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, “Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord has made with you in accordance with ALL THESE WORDS.””
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24‬:‭3‬-‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

ALL THESE WORDS” meaning all the words Moses wrote down in the book of the covenant that he just read to them which consisted of everything God had spoken to Moses from Exodus 20 to Exodus 23, not only what God had spoken to him in chapter 20.

You claim that others are obeying their own laws instead of the laws of God when you’re doing the exact same thing. You’re not observing ALL THE WORDS OF THE LORD. You’re picking and choosing which laws you want to observe and which ones you don’t want to observe. You repeatedly use Jesus as the example we’re supposed to follow BUT YOU DON’T FOLLOW HIS EXAMPLE. JESUS KEPT THE ENTIRE MOSUAC LAW, YOU DON’T.
I have no idea what point you are trying to make or how it relates to the post you are responding to. Are there other commandments, ordinances, laws statutes aside from the Ten Commandments? Of course. Neh 9:13 But God alone wrote and God alone spoke the Ten Commandments, it is His personal Testimony Exo 31:18. God called the unit of Ten "My commandments" Exo 20:6 He numbered them by design Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28, not nine, not eight, not one not 613 but Ten, after He was finished with the Ten Commandments personally engraving them on stone He added no more Deut 5:22- they are their own unit. God placed the unit of Ten inside the ark of the covenant under His mercy seat where Justice and Mercy will come together one day soon, as it will be what all man is Judged by regardless if one accepts it or not James 2:10-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15 why we see them revealed at the seventh trumpet in Heaven Rev 11:19 God's unedited version inscribed by God Himself. Every King has laws and God didn't leave it up to man to write His holy and perfect law.

All other laws were handwritten by Moses, placed beside the ark of the covenant as a witness against. It contained all the curses and blessings for breaking God's holy and eternal law. I would suggest we choose God's blessing, all He wants to do is bless and sanctify us Eze 20:12 because we can't do this ourselves Isa 66:17, despite our best efforts.

The choice is our which part of the group we want to be in, if we are not blessed by God there is only one other choice.

Jesus in His own Words says Blessed is the man who keeps the Sabbath Isa 56:2 Blessed are those who do His commandments Rev 22:14 the Sabbath is a commandment of God, so this argument is not really with me.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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To be honest, I don't think proof of anything will change your mind. Moses never takes credit for God's Law, except that he obviously became the means of transmitting God's laws to Israel. Moses is attributed with this task throughout the Bible, including the entire Law as written in Genesis through Deuteronomy.
Proof of what, your response to the scriptures I posted has only been your opinion. Our opinions are important to us, but its not the same as what God says.
 
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That’s not true.
I'm going to stick with my original assessment that God knows whats He is doing.

The Medical Benefits of Male Circumcision​

Aaron A R Tobian 1, Ronald H Gray 1
  • Author information
  • Copyright and License information

PMCID: PMC3684945 NIHMSID: NIHMS367586 PMID: 21972310
The publisher's version of this article is available at JAMA

With 2 new states recently joining 16 others in eliminating Medicaid insurance for male circumcision, possible ballot initiatives to ban male circumcision, and the long-awaited American Academy of Pediatrics male circumcision policy statement, there is a need to evaluate the medical risks and benefits of male circumcision, particularly in light of recent medical evidence.

Three randomized trials in Africa demonstrated that adult male circumcision decreases human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) acquisition in men by 51% to 60%,1 and the long-term follow-up of these study participants has shown that the protective efficacy of male circumcision increases with time from surgery. These findings are consistent with a large number of observational studies in Africa and in the United States that found male circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection in men.1 Thus, there is substantial evidence that removal of the foreskin reduces the risk of male heterosexual HIV acquisition. However, the effect of male circumcision on reducing HIV acquisition among men who have sex with men is unclear. There may be protection against insertional but not against receptive anal intercourse, so men practicing both forms of sexual intercourse may have limited protection associated with male circumcision.

In addition to HIV, male circumcision has been shown to reduce the risk of other heterosexually acquired sexually transmitted infections (STIs). Two trials demonstrated that male circumcision reduces the risk of acquiring genital herpes by 28% to 34%, and the risk of developing genital ulceration by 47%.1 Additionally, the trials found that male circumcision reduces the risk of oncogenic high-risk human papillomavirus (HR-HPV) by 32% to 35%.1 While some consider male circumcision to be primarily a male issue, one trial also reported derivative benefits for female partners of circumcised men; the risk of HR-HPV for female partners was reduced by 28%, the risk of bacterial vaginosis was reduced by 40%, and the risk of trichomoniasis was reduced by 48%.1,2 It should be noted that no large-scale randomized controlled trial has assessed the benefit of neonatal male circumcision throughout several decades, which is when many of the potential health benefits would be realized. Such a trial is probably not feasible. However, observational data of men predominantly circumcised during childhood support the findings of the 3 randomized trials conducted in Africa1 and the long-term medical benefits of male circumcision.

One concern is that the trials of male circumcision conducted in Africa may not be applicable to the United States. Despite 3 decades of safe-sex education in the United States, STIs continue to cause substantial morbidity and mortality. It is estimated that more than 1 million people are living with HIV/AIDS, and more than 50 000 new infections occur annually. Additional estimates suggest that there are 3 million to 5 million annual cases of trichomoniasis in the United States, and the prevalence of bacterial vaginosis among women of reproductive age is approximately 30%. One of the most common STIs is HPV, which causes genital warts, and penile and cervical cancer. Observational studies in the United States show that male circumcision is associated with reduced risk of men acquiring heterosexual HIV and HR-HPV infection.1,3 Thus, STIs are a persistent problem in the United States, and male circumcision may provide individual and societal benefits.

The incidence of viral STIs in the United States is disproportionately higher among disadvantaged minority populations such as blacks and Hispanics, who have the lowest rates of male circumcision. For example, in Washington, DC, 7.1% of black males are living with HIV, and heterosexual exposure is the leading mode of transmission among these individuals.4 Medicaid, which disproportionately provides health insurance for black children, is decreasing coverage for male circumcision, making the procedure less accessible, especially for those at the highest risk for these infections.5 In contrast, Medicaid covers immunization against hepatitis B virus during the neonatal period even though it is difficult to predict who will be at high risk of STIs.

Using mathematical models and cost-effectiveness analyses, the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS) and the World Health Organization adopted a policy advocating male circumcision in countries and regions with heterosexual HIV epidemics. In a cost-effectiveness analysis by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, neonatal male circumcision in the United States was projected to increase quality-adjusted life-years and estimated to be cost-saving due to reduced HIV infections and subsequent treatment costs.6 If protection from genital herpes, bacterial vaginosis, trichomoniasis, and penile and cervical cancer were considered in the analyses, the economic benefits most likely would be enhanced.

Opponents of male circumcision argue that the procedure constitutes genital mutilation performed with parental consent but not the infant’s assent and recommend that male circumcision be delayed until 18 years of age when the man can provide individual informed consent to the procedure. However, parents provide consent for preventive procedures such as immunization including hepatitis B vaccination, acting in the best interests of their children. UNAIDS recommends providing information on risks and benefits of early infant neonatal male circumcision so parents and guardians can make informed decisions on behalf of their children with the best interests of the child as the primary consideration.7 Additionally, a ban on neonatal male circumcision denies religious freedoms to Jewish and Muslim parents, which would be potentially unconstitutional.

Neonatal male circumcision provides other potential benefits during childhood such as prevention of infant urinary tract infections, meatitis, balanitis, and phimosis,8 as well as protection from viral STIs. Approximately 50% of high school students report having sex prior to 18 years of age, so delaying male circumcision to age 18 years or older would deny children and adolescents these potential benefits. Neonatal male circumcision is a simple procedure and the complication rate is only between 0.2% and 0.6%8; the vast majority of complications are minor and easily treated. The complication rate of neonatal male circumcision is substantially lower than the complication rates of adult male circumcision (1.5%-3.8% during the trials), so delaying the procedure would only add to surgical risk.

Some who oppose male circumcision cite anecdotal reports that male circumcision can cause sexual dysfunction. The male circumcision trials evaluated sexual satisfaction in adult men and their female partners before and after the procedure and compared men randomized to male circumcision with uncircumcised controls. There were no significant differences in male sexual satisfaction or dysfunction among trial participants, and in one trial, circumcised men reported increased penile sensitivity and enhanced ease of reaching [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].9 In addition, 97% of female partners reported either no change or improved sexual satisfaction after their male partner was circumcised.10

The evidence for the long-term public health benefits of male circumcision has increased substantially during the past 5 years. If a vaccine were available that reduced HIV risk by 60%, genital herpes risk by 30%, and HR-HPV risk by 35%, the medical community would rally behind the immunization and it would be promoted as a game-changing public health intervention. Based on the medical evidence, banning infant male circumcision would deprive parents of the right to act on behalf of their children’s health. Parents should be provided with information derived from evidence-based medicine about the risks and benefits of male circumcision so that they can make an informed choice for their children. It would be ethically questionable to deprive them of this choice. Medicaid and other insurance carriers should cover male circumcision costs if parents opt for the procedure, and the medical community, including the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, should recognize the health benefits of male circumcision in order to properly inform parents and physicians.

Acknowledgments​

Funding/Support: Dr Tobian is supported by grant 2011036 from the Doris Duke Charitable Foundation, National Institutes of Health grant 1K23AI093152-01A1, and the Johns Hopkins University Clinician Scientist Development Award.

Role of the Sponsors: The sponsors had no role in the preparation, review, or approval of the manuscript.

Footnotes​

Conflict of Interest Disclosures: Both authors have completed and submitted the ICMJE Form for Disclosure of Potential Conflicts of Interest and none were reported.

REFERENCES​

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