The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

[BNR32FAN]

It doesn't


Yet the inspired Word has such warning I believe we should take serious over believing God was against man at Creation which is such a sad doctrine.

2 Peter 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

There is more than one Sabbath in scripture and Paul made it abundantly clear if read in context what he was referring to, which is about handwritten, not finger written by God Exo 31:18, ordinances, not commandments by God Exo 20:6, that had to do with food, drink offerings which is not in the Ten Commandments but in the handwriting of ordinances that were set OUTSIDE the ark as a witness again, Deut 31:24-26 so contrary and against the whole context of this passage if read in context properly.

Hence why Paul and the apostles followed in the footsteps of Christ and kept God's commandments including the Sabbath. Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 18:4 Acts 15:21 Its all about choices and who we follow.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree. All gets sorted out soon enough

As I’ve pointed out numerous times Paul specifically stated in 2 Corinthians 3 that the laws written on stone tablets brought death and contrasts between the law written on stone tablets that will fade away with the law of the Spirit which will replace the law written on stone tablets.

“who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭6‬-‭11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Paul speaks of the location being changed 2 Cor 3:3 from tablets of stone to tablets of the heart, much like God said Heb 8:10 Psa 89:34 based on better promises Heb 8:6, not better laws Heb 8:10 Psa 19:7 as if there will ever be a time we can worship other gods or steal etc.

Here is a study breaking this passage down


In verses 1-3 we have an introduction to a new section which contains an allusion to the Ten Commandments and the New Covenant:

• First, there were, apparently, “letters of recommendation” that ministers were caring at this time, possibly for the purpose of avoiding false teachers, but it seems like in Paul’s view, a true “letter of recommendation” was the changed lives of the people he ministered to which was evident outwardly (verses 1-2).
• The reason for their change is because they have the New Covenant. Verse 3 is using New Covenant language (in fact we are sure of this, because verse 6 says “new covenant”). It says that they’re lives are letters written by the Spirit in the heart, and not by ink on “tablets of stone,” an allusion or quick hint to the Ten Commandments.
• A good hermeneutical move is to always go to where the author is referring or alluding to, in order to better understand what he means. Paul is borrowing New Covenant language directly from the actual prophecy about the New Covenant in Jer. 31:30-33 (cf. Ezek. 36:26-27). In Jeremiah 31:33, we read that God will write His “laws” in their mind and hearts. Since Paul, while speaking about this New Covenant, alludes to the Ten Commandments (tablets of stone), the law in this prophecy is the Ten Commandments being written in another location, the mind and heart.
• The New Covenant is, therefore, a total transformation of the heart, where sins are forgiven and forgotten, God’s Law is written in the heart by the Spirit, and people begin to actually live righteous lives (cf. Jer. 31:34, Ezek. 36:26-27). The Law can only be obeyed by the power of God’s Spirit.
• Therefore, the lives of the Corinthian Christians are living manifestations of God’s law. It was not abolished for them (which Mr. Tucker repeatedly says). On the contrary, their lives manifest obedience to it.
• This is the immediate context, and obviously what follows after this will not mean that the Ten Commandments was abolished for the Christian, since it is written in their hearts. The change was in location, from tablets of stone to “fleshy tables of the heart.”
• QUESTION: However, if what follows will show that the Ten commandments were abolished for the Christian, why are they still playing a role in the lives of Christians? Provide examples. See: Eph. 6:1-3 (actually, the whole letter of Ephesians alludes to various commandments to not break them, see 4:25 28, 29, 31, 5:3-5, 6), Rom. 3:31, 7:7-12, especially verse 13).

SECTION 2: THE LETTER KILLS, THE MINISTRATION OF DEATH

• In verse 4, Paul says that he is fully confident that they are living New Covenant lives which manifest obedience to the Ten Commandments from the heart rather than from tablets of stones (verses 2-3), because his trust is “through Christ toward God” and not in the work they did for them.
• Nevertheless, God made Paul the minister of this New Covenant, not of the letter, which previously was on stone and ink, but of the Spirit, which is now the Law written in the heart (verse 6a).
• The last clause of verse 6, and also verses 7 and 9 speak of the Law as something that kills, brings death and condemns. Why?
• Paul does not here say how the Law kills, but he does in Romans 7:7-13. It kills by revealing the source of death, which is sin! Compared with Psalm 119:86-88:
  
  “All Your commandments are faithful; They persecute me wrongfully; Help me! They almost made an end of me on earth, But I did not forsake Your precepts. Revive me according to Your lovingkindness, So that I may KEEP the testimony of Your mouth.” (Psa. 119:86-88. Note: Comparing the “commandments” here to Rom. 7:7, we learn that the specific laws that kill are the Ten Commandments, since Paul quotes from the tenth one to make his point).
• Psalm 119:86-88 may be referring to David’s enemies as the persecutors, but the clauses of each sentence indicate that the Law has a special function of revealing sin, especially when we compare them to Romans 7:7-13, which also speak of the commandments as something that kills, yet continues to be desirable by Paul.
• We learn from these references that: 1. The law kills in the sense that it reveals sin by pointing to our faults, and 2. This, however, should motivate us to obey it to be in harmony with it.

SECTION 3: TWO MINISTRATIONS: VERSE 9:

• The ministration of RIGHTEOUSNESS
• The ministration of CONDEMNATION

SECTION 4: WAS THE LAW ABOLISHED?

• LET US ASSUME THE TEXT MEANS THE LAW WAS ABOLISHED AS WELL. Various problems arise:
  
  –ONE: The immediate context says it is written in the heart (verses 2-3, cf. Jer. 31:33).
  –TWO: In Rom. 7:13 Paul asks, “Has then what is good (the commandment, verse 12) made death unto me?” His answer is a resounding, “certainly not!.”
  -No, because Paul also wrote that faith establishes, rather then abolishes, the law (Rom. 3:31).
  -No, because David, speaking of the same law that kills, views that as a good thing, and asks God to help him even more to keep it! (cf. Psa. 119:86-88).
• Compare verses 7 and 13 to Romans 3:21. Same Greek word: katargeo.
• The same Greek word in verse 7 is used in verse 13. Both mention what the Israelites could NOT look upon

SECTION 5: WHAT, THAN, WAS ABOLISHED?

• According to verses 7-13, the following things were abolished:
  
  -The ministration under Moses which included the ministry under the Old Dispensation, including the tablets of stone and, by implication, the entire earthly Sanctuary service, to be replaced with the ministration of the Spirit, with fleshy tablets and, by implication, a heavenly Sanctuary (cf. Heb. 8:2).
  -The face of Moses, his leadership, being replaced by the face of Christ, as the new High Priest.
• The tablets would not be necessary when its contents are lived out in the lives of believers. Christians should not be trying to measure up to standards that have not convicted their minds and transformed their thoughts. God wants people to want to do right, and He does this by writing His moral principles in their hearts as He previously wrote them on stone. The stones are no longer needed when its principles are lived and obeyed. Once again, believers would NOT insist on abolishing the Law if they truly have it written in the heart.

CONCLUSION: The critic asked, “When was the law established?” but this time quotes 2 Corinthians 3. According to the document we are examining, the law “ended at the cross for believers.” However, that is not what 2 Cor. 3 teaches. On the contrary, this chapter reinforces the Ten Commandments in a better way, as principles that are now written in the heart, rather than stone, under the New Covenant for believers.

This is what we get from the immediate context. The first three verses demonstrate what the lives of New Covenant believers look like. They have the Law of God written in the heart, and it is quite evident. They are, as Paul puts it, living epistles, “known and read by all men.” Paul borrows language from the New Covenant in Jer. 31:33 and alludes to the Ten Commandments when he mentioned the “tablets of stones.” In other words, these Corinthians believers have the Ten Commandments written in their hearts, as promised in the New Covenant prophecy, and everyone can see it by their lives and acts. We know it is “ten” commandments, which includes the fourth, because the “tablets of stone” contained ten, not nine. Therefore, all Ten Commandments are written in their hearts, and as the other nine are practiced both spiritually and practically, so with the fourth one. Anyone living the New Covenant experience, therefore, will not be going around claiming that the Law “ended for believers.”

The conclusion drawn is that the first few verses speak about the Law written in the heart and lived out by the Corinthians believers, what follows after verse 3, therefore, does not abolish the Law. A careful look at the remaining verses reveal that indeed something was abolished, and that was the old ministration of the Law under Moses, along Moses himself and the tablets of stone. The contents of the Law, however, were transferred to the heart. A comparison with verse 13 with the actual story Paul is talking about, found in Exo. 34:29-35, reveals that what was abolished was that which “the children of Israel could NOT look steadily at…” In Exo. 34, the tablets of stone were in plain view in the hands of Moses, but his face was covered. Nevertheless, there is no longer a need for the stone tablets, not that its contents are in the mind and hearts of New Covenant believers.

Not only does the immediate context not allow for the contents of the tablets to be abolished, Paul says in Rom. 3:31 that the Law is NOT made “void” to believers. The Greek word translated “void” is the same one translated “abolished” or “passing away” in 2 Cor. 3.

2 Cor. 3 also explains that the tablets of stone are referred to as the “ministration of death” and “condemnation.” This is because, as Paul explains elsewhere, the Ten Commandments reveal sin, and sin brings death (see Rom. 7:7-11, cf. James. 1:15). Nevertheless, the commandment that does this is considered “holy, just and good” and that which is good does NOT become death to believers (see verses 12-13). Of course, because as 2 Cor. 3 says, it is written in the heart.

PART 2: POINT BY POINT RESPONSE TO AN ADVENTIST CRITIC: 2 CORINTHIANS 3 - Advent Defense League

adventdefenseleague.com

 

[RandyPNW]

If that's the case than Col 2:16 can't mean the weekly Sabbath that started at Creation Exo 20:11 Exo 20:8-11 because it's not.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

14 Blotting out the handwriting - not what was finger written by GOD Exo 31:18

What was finger written by God was also hand written later! When Jesus referred to "the Law," he was referring to the entire Law, including the 10 Commandments. This was all "hand-written" by the scribes of Israel, who had to repeatedly copy them to preserve them.

This is the hand-written Law that was nailed to the Cross, so that it no longer applies to us as "sinners." We are now looked upon as "forgiven saints."

 

[SabbathBlessings]

What was finger written by God was also hand written later! When Jesus referred to "the Law," he was referring to the entire Law, including the 10 Commandments. This was all "hand-written" by the scribes of Israel, who had to repeatedly copy them to preserve them.

This is the hand-written Law that was nailed to the Cross, so that it no longer applies to us as "sinners." We are now looked upon as "forgiven saints."

So we can now worship other gods. steal, covet and break the least of these commandments? And break God’s commandments Not what Christ taught Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14

God WROTE, not man. Exo 31:18 If we can’t trust God’s own personal Testimony, not sure the point of having God’s Word because all the prophets and apostles testified about God. Not changed what God said He would not Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 Isa 8:20

Guess it will get sorted out soon enough

 

[RandyPNW]

The Sabbath started at Creation thus saith the Lord Exo 20:11, please point out where God made Jew at Creation.

Your arguments appear to be getting ridiculous, as if all you want to do is argue. Just accept that pushing the Law is more like Judaism than doctrinally-orthodox Christianity. It is more cultic than mainstream.

The weekly Sabbath for the Jews did *not* start at Creation. It was *God's Sabbath* at Creation--not the Jewish Sabbath that was given specifically to them (not to God Himself) in the Law.

In the Ten Commandments, in the law God said the Sabbath started at Creation. Why He said "Remember" you don't remember something if never happened. He pointed in the law back to Creation when it started. Not a different Sabbath

Is there a connection between the Jewish Sabbath in the Law of Moses and God's Sabbath in Creation? Yes. But the connection is not lineal and part of the same covenant. God did not make a covenant with Himself in Creation. He made a covenant with Israel through the Law.

The Jewish Sabbath was a covenant agreement. Creation was not a covenant agreement God made with Himself. The relationship, therefore, between the Creation Sabbath and the Jewish Sabbath is that the Jewish Sabbath was commemorative of the Creation Sabbath--the fact rest follows works.

In Israel's case, their work in performing rituals of redemption are intended to be followed by the rest from these works after Christ's atonement.

I now expect you will argue this out of pride, rather than out of brotherly affection, to aid me in my spiritual life. Either that or you should just stop asserting heterodox beliefs in a forum largely populated by those who believe in Christian "grace?"

 

[RandyPNW]

So we can now worship other gods. steal, covet and break the least of these commandments? And break God’s commandments Not what Christ taught Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14

I already told you that you should not, of necessity, connect obedience to the Law of Moses to obedience to Christ. They are not intrinsically linked. Do I have to repeat this continually?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Your arguments appear to be getting ridiculous, as if all you want to do is argue. Just accept that pushing the Law is more like Judaism than doctrinally-orthodox Christianity. It is more cultic than mainstream.

The weekly Sabbath for the Jews did *not* start at Creation. It was *God's Sabbath* at Creation--not the Jewish Sabbath that was given specifically to them (not to God Himself) in the Law.

Is there a connection between the Jewish Sabbath in the Law of Moses and God's Sabbath in Creation? Yes. But the connection is not lineal and part of the same covenant. God did not make a covenant with Himself in Creation. He made a covenant with Israel through the Law.

The Jewish Sabbath was a covenant agreement. Creation was not a covenant agreement God made with Himself. The relationship, therefore, between the Creation Sabbath and the Jewish Sabbath is that the Jewish Sabbath was commemorative of the Creation Sabbath--the fact rest follows works.

In Israel's case, their work in performing rituals of redemption are intended to be followed by the rest from these works after Christ's atonement.

I now expect you will argue this out of pride, rather than out of brotherly affection, to aid me in my spiritual life. Either that or you should just stop asserting heterodox beliefs in a forum largely populated by those who believe in Christian "grace?"

Not one scripture to refute what God said. Exo 20:8-11 as demonstrated by His clear Word, just human reasoning. The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know? The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

Guess we will have to agree to disagree

 

[The Liturgist]

is not about the weekly Sabbath finger written by God, but about the annual feasts days that had to do with food and drink offerings

The problem with that argument is that it presupposes that Colossians 2:16 is countermanding something, which its not. It is talking about not permitting others to judge us.

Which Jesus Christ our God also says we are not supposed to do - “Judge not, lest ye not be judged.”

So Colossians 2:16 can be about anything, since it is about not permitting others to judge us, in violation of God’s command, spoken with His Own Voice. for Jesus Christ is God.

Although, if you really wanted to go there, anything written with the finger is written with the hand, by definition. And it would have been the hand of Jesus Christ, since God the Father and God the Holy Spirit do not have physical hands, not being incarnate but rather transcending our physical reality. Only God the Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word of God, has a hand and a finger with which to write.

That said, that is not the point I was making - other members are rejecting your doctrine on the Sabbath. I myself have not rejected your doctrine on the Sabbath, all I have done is to ask you not judge mine, on the basis of Colossians 2:16.

 

[The Liturgist]

Paul speaks of the location being changed 2 Cor 3:3 from tablets of stone to tablets of the heart, much like God said Heb 8:10 Psa 89:34 based on better promises Heb 8:6, not better laws Heb 8:10 Psa 19:7 as if there will ever be a time we can worship other gods or steal etc.

Here is a study breaking this passage down


In verses 1-3 we have an introduction to a new section which contains an allusion to the Ten Commandments and the New Covenant:

• First, there were, apparently, “letters of recommendation” that ministers were caring at this time, possibly for the purpose of avoiding false teachers, but it seems like in Paul’s view, a true “letter of recommendation” was the changed lives of the people he ministered to which was evident outwardly (verses 1-2).
• The reason for their change is because they have the New Covenant. Verse 3 is using New Covenant language (in fact we are sure of this, because verse 6 says “new covenant”). It says that they’re lives are letters written by the Spirit in the heart, and not by ink on “tablets of stone,” an allusion or quick hint to the Ten Commandments.
• A good hermeneutical move is to always go to where the author is referring or alluding to, in order to better understand what he means. Paul is borrowing New Covenant language directly from the actual prophecy about the New Covenant in Jer. 31:30-33 (cf. Ezek. 36:26-27). In Jeremiah 31:33, we read that God will write His “laws” in their mind and hearts. Since Paul, while speaking about this New Covenant, alludes to the Ten Commandments (tablets of stone), the law in this prophecy is the Ten Commandments being written in another location, the mind and heart.
• The New Covenant is, therefore, a total transformation of the heart, where sins are forgiven and forgotten, God’s Law is written in the heart by the Spirit, and people begin to actually live righteous lives (cf. Jer. 31:34, Ezek. 36:26-27). The Law can only be obeyed by the power of God’s Spirit.
• Therefore, the lives of the Corinthian Christians are living manifestations of God’s law. It was not abolished for them (which Mr. Tucker repeatedly says). On the contrary, their lives manifest obedience to it.
• This is the immediate context, and obviously what follows after this will not mean that the Ten Commandments was abolished for the Christian, since it is written in their hearts. The change was in location, from tablets of stone to “fleshy tables of the heart.”
• QUESTION: However, if what follows will show that the Ten commandments were abolished for the Christian, why are they still playing a role in the lives of Christians? Provide examples. See: Eph. 6:1-3 (actually, the whole letter of Ephesians alludes to various commandments to not break them, see 4:25 28, 29, 31, 5:3-5, 6), Rom. 3:31, 7:7-12, especially verse 13).

SECTION 2: THE LETTER KILLS, THE MINISTRATION OF DEATH

• In verse 4, Paul says that he is fully confident that they are living New Covenant lives which manifest obedience to the Ten Commandments from the heart rather than from tablets of stones (verses 2-3), because his trust is “through Christ toward God” and not in the work they did for them.
• Nevertheless, God made Paul the minister of this New Covenant, not of the letter, which previously was on stone and ink, but of the Spirit, which is now the Law written in the heart (verse 6a).
• The last clause of verse 6, and also verses 7 and 9 speak of the Law as something that kills, brings death and condemns. Why?
• Paul does not here say how the Law kills, but he does in Romans 7:7-13. It kills by revealing the source of death, which is sin! Compared with Psalm 119:86-88:
  
  “All Your commandments are faithful; They persecute me wrongfully; Help me! They almost made an end of me on earth, But I did not forsake Your precepts. Revive me according to Your lovingkindness, So that I may KEEP the testimony of Your mouth.” (Psa. 119:86-88. Note: Comparing the “commandments” here to Rom. 7:7, we learn that the specific laws that kill are the Ten Commandments, since Paul quotes from the tenth one to make his point).
• Psalm 119:86-88 may be referring to David’s enemies as the persecutors, but the clauses of each sentence indicate that the Law has a special function of revealing sin, especially when we compare them to Romans 7:7-13, which also speak of the commandments as something that kills, yet continues to be desirable by Paul.
• We learn from these references that: 1. The law kills in the sense that it reveals sin by pointing to our faults, and 2. This, however, should motivate us to obey it to be in harmony with it.

SECTION 3: TWO MINISTRATIONS: VERSE 9:

• The ministration of RIGHTEOUSNESS
• The ministration of CONDEMNATION

SECTION 4: WAS THE LAW ABOLISHED?

• LET US ASSUME THE TEXT MEANS THE LAW WAS ABOLISHED AS WELL. Various problems arise:
  
  –ONE: The immediate context says it is written in the heart (verses 2-3, cf. Jer. 31:33).
  –TWO: In Rom. 7:13 Paul asks, “Has then what is good (the commandment, verse 12) made death unto me?” His answer is a resounding, “certainly not!.”
  -No, because Paul also wrote that faith establishes, rather then abolishes, the law (Rom. 3:31).
  -No, because David, speaking of the same law that kills, views that as a good thing, and asks God to help him even more to keep it! (cf. Psa. 119:86-88).
• Compare verses 7 and 13 to Romans 3:21. Same Greek word: katargeo.
• The same Greek word in verse 7 is used in verse 13. Both mention what the Israelites could NOT look upon

SECTION 5: WHAT, THAN, WAS ABOLISHED?

• According to verses 7-13, the following things were abolished:
  
  -The ministration under Moses which included the ministry under the Old Dispensation, including the tablets of stone and, by implication, the entire earthly Sanctuary service, to be replaced with the ministration of the Spirit, with fleshy tablets and, by implication, a heavenly Sanctuary (cf. Heb. 8:2).
  -The face of Moses, his leadership, being replaced by the face of Christ, as the new High Priest.
• The tablets would not be necessary when its contents are lived out in the lives of believers. Christians should not be trying to measure up to standards that have not convicted their minds and transformed their thoughts. God wants people to want to do right, and He does this by writing His moral principles in their hearts as He previously wrote them on stone. The stones are no longer needed when its principles are lived and obeyed. Once again, believers would NOT insist on abolishing the Law if they truly have it written in the heart.

CONCLUSION: The critic asked, “When was the law established?” but this time quotes 2 Corinthians 3. According to the document we are examining, the law “ended at the cross for believers.” However, that is not what 2 Cor. 3 teaches. On the contrary, this chapter reinforces the Ten Commandments in a better way, as principles that are now written in the heart, rather than stone, under the New Covenant for believers.

This is what we get from the immediate context. The first three verses demonstrate what the lives of New Covenant believers look like. They have the Law of God written in the heart, and it is quite evident. They are, as Paul puts it, living epistles, “known and read by all men.” Paul borrows language from the New Covenant in Jer. 31:33 and alludes to the Ten Commandments when he mentioned the “tablets of stones.” In other words, these Corinthians believers have the Ten Commandments written in their hearts, as promised in the New Covenant prophecy, and everyone can see it by their lives and acts. We know it is “ten” commandments, which includes the fourth, because the “tablets of stone” contained ten, not nine. Therefore, all Ten Commandments are written in their hearts, and as the other nine are practiced both spiritually and practically, so with the fourth one. Anyone living the New Covenant experience, therefore, will not be going around claiming that the Law “ended for believers.”

The conclusion drawn is that the first few verses speak about the Law written in the heart and lived out by the Corinthians believers, what follows after verse 3, therefore, does not abolish the Law. A careful look at the remaining verses reveal that indeed something was abolished, and that was the old ministration of the Law under Moses, along Moses himself and the tablets of stone. The contents of the Law, however, were transferred to the heart. A comparison with verse 13 with the actual story Paul is talking about, found in Exo. 34:29-35, reveals that what was abolished was that which “the children of Israel could NOT look steadily at…” In Exo. 34, the tablets of stone were in plain view in the hands of Moses, but his face was covered. Nevertheless, there is no longer a need for the stone tablets, not that its contents are in the mind and hearts of New Covenant believers.

Not only does the immediate context not allow for the contents of the tablets to be abolished, Paul says in Rom. 3:31 that the Law is NOT made “void” to believers. The Greek word translated “void” is the same one translated “abolished” or “passing away” in 2 Cor. 3.

2 Cor. 3 also explains that the tablets of stone are referred to as the “ministration of death” and “condemnation.” This is because, as Paul explains elsewhere, the Ten Commandments reveal sin, and sin brings death (see Rom. 7:7-11, cf. James. 1:15). Nevertheless, the commandment that does this is considered “holy, just and good” and that which is good does NOT become death to believers (see verses 12-13). Of course, because as 2 Cor. 3 says, it is written in the heart.

PART 2: POINT BY POINT RESPONSE TO AN ADVENTIST CRITIC: 2 CORINTHIANS 3 - Advent Defense League

adventdefenseleague.com

Thank you, by the way, for very graciously linking us to that source of Adventist apologetics, as that should provide some insight into Adventist doctrine and spirituality!

 

[The Liturgist]

Guess it will get sorted out soon enough

Meaning what, exactly?

 

[The Liturgist]

I already told you that you should not, of necessity, connect obedience to the Law of Moses to obedience to Christ. They are not intrinsically linked. Do I have to repeat this continually?

I have tried making that point longer than you have, since the start of this thread, but instead of my arguments being responded to, I have been accused of various false doctrines that I do not hold, such anomialism.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I already told you that you should not, of necessity, connect obedience to the Law of Moses to obedience to Christ. They are not intrinsically linked. Do I have to repeat this continually?

Can you please point out where it says Moses in these verses?

Deut 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Exo 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

Even Moses didn't take credit for the Ten Commandments, Jesus said this John 5:46 about not believing Moses

Moses is not God. God is the Creator of the Universe; Moses is the creation.

Why Jesus said quoting from this same unit of Ten

Mat 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the [b]commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people [c]draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

If you keep reading Jesus said following this path, our own commandments, over obeying God's leads one in a ditch. Not the path Jesus told us to take.

 

[The Liturgist]

Not the path Jesus told us to take.

The path Jesus Christ told us to take is centered around reception of the Eucharist in His Church against which He promised the Gates of Hell will not prevail.

Matthew 26, John 6 and 1 Corinthians 11 are essential to understanding the New Covenant, for it is sealed in the Blood of Christ which we partake of together with His precious Body in Holy Communion, especially on Maundy Thursday, Great and Holy Saturday and Pascha.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Alas there is nothing in the text that would support your conclusion.

• Weekly Sabbath (Genesis 2:2-3, Exodus 20:8-10)
• Sabbatical Year (Leviticus 25:3-4)
• Year of Jubilee (Leviticus 25:10)
• Feast of Unleavened Bread (High Sabbath) (Leviticus 23:6-7)
• Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) (Leviticus 23:15-16)
• Feast of Trumpets (Leviticus 23:24-25)
• Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) (Leviticus 23:27-32)
• Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot) (Leviticus 23:39-40)
• First Fruits (Leviticus 23:9-11)
• Sabbath of the Land (Sabbatical Year) (Leviticus 25:4)
• Sabbath of the Seventh Month (Rosh Hashanah) (Leviticus 23:24)
• Sabbath Year of Release (Shemittah) (Deuteronomy 15:1-2)
• New Moon (Rosh Chodesh) (Numbers 10:10)
• Feast of Purim (Unrest) (Esther 9:22)
• Feast of Dedication (Hanukkah) (John 10:22)
• High Sabbath during Passover Week (John 19:31)
• Sabbath of the Feast of Weeks (Leviticus 23:15-16)

all these were considered sabbaths

 

[BNR32FAN]

Your arguments appear to be getting ridiculous, as if all you want to do is argue. Just accept that pushing the Law is more like Judaism than doctrinally-orthodox Christianity. It is more cultic than mainstream.

The weekly Sabbath for the Jews did *not* start at Creation. It was *God's Sabbath* at Creation--not the Jewish Sabbath that was given specifically to them (not to God Himself) in the Law.

Is there a connection between the Jewish Sabbath in the Law of Moses and God's Sabbath in Creation? Yes. But the connection is not lineal and part of the same covenant. God did not make a covenant with Himself in Creation. He made a covenant with Israel through the Law.

The Jewish Sabbath was a covenant agreement. Creation was not a covenant agreement God made with Himself. The relationship, therefore, between the Creation Sabbath and the Jewish Sabbath is that the Jewish Sabbath was commemorative of the Creation Sabbath--the fact rest follows works.

In Israel's case, their work in performing rituals of redemption are intended to be followed by the rest from these works after Christ's atonement.

I now expect you will argue this out of pride, rather than out of brotherly affection, to aid me in my spiritual life. Either that or you should just stop asserting heterodox beliefs in a forum largely populated by those who believe in Christian "grace?"

Yeah adding the law to grace didn’t work out so well for the Galatians.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

I don't believe you're reading that right. The passage is saying that the Covenant will be different and new--not just that it will be unlike how though the 1st Covenant was broken the next Covenant will be the same but unbroken.

There is another passage in Jeremiah that indicates a change in the Covenant when the ark goes away. Jer 3.16. It indicates not just that the Covenant will finally be kept, but more, that the need for redemption, supplied by the superstructure of the Covenant, will no longer be needed.

This happened when the veil of the Temple was torn at the death of Christ, symbolizing the end of any need for redemption under the Law. Indeed, final redemption could only take place by Christ, as opposed to temporary acts of redemption under the Law.

John 1.17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

The 10 Commandments were referenced as a summary of the whole Law, indicating that its essence was in Man's devotion to the word of God at creation, that we live in His image. To do this, we love God preeminently and following this we exhibit God's love in our human relationships.

The removal of the Ark of the Covenant is a prophecy that points to a future time when God's presence will no longer be tied to an earthly object but will be directly with His people. Jeremiah 3:16 states that a day will come when the Ark will no longer be remembered or sought after, signaling a shift from the old covenant, where the Ark symbolized God's presence, to a future time when His presence will be fully realized without the need for physical representations. However, this has not yet happened, as the world still operates under the current age where faith and spiritual symbols still play a role.

Revelation 11:19 reveals the Ark appearing in the heavenly temple at the moment when the seventh trumpet sounds, signifying the final establishment of God’s kingdom. This confirms that the true Ark remains in heaven and that its earthly counterpart will no longer be needed when God's reign is fully revealed. This moment is still in the future, as the events of Revelation unfold in the final stages of God’s plan.

Hebrews 9:4-10 explains that the Ark and the earthly tabernacle were temporary symbols pointing to a greater reality in Christ. Jesus, as the High Priest, has entered the true heavenly sanctuary, fulfilling the role of the Ark. Yet, while His sacrifice has secured this promise, the complete realization of God's kingdom, where the Ark is no longer needed, is still to come.

Other scriptures confirm this transition. Isaiah 66:1 declares that God’s presence is not confined to a physical structure, while Zechariah 6:12-13 prophesies that the Messiah will establish a new temple, not built by human hands. Matthew 24:2 shows Jesus predicting the destruction of the temple, emphasizing that physical symbols of worship will not last. John 4:23-24 further confirms that true worship will be in spirit and truth rather than through objects or locations. Finally, Revelation 21:22-23 declares that in the New Jerusalem, there will be no temple because the Lord and the Lamb will be its temple, making all earthly symbols, including the Ark, obsolete.

All these verses emphasize that the removal of the Ark is not for now but for a later time when God’s kingdom is fully established. We are still in a period of waiting and faith, looking forward to the time when God's presence will be fully manifest among His people, as prophesied in Revelation 21:3—"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them." Until then, the Ark remains a symbol of what is to come, but one day it will no longer be needed when God's kingdom is revealed in its fullness.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Paul speaks of the location being changed 2 Cor 3:3 from tablets of stone to tablets of the heart, much like God said Heb 8:10 Psa 89:34 based on better promises Heb 8:6, not better laws Heb 8:10 Psa 19:7 as if there will ever be a time we can worship other gods or steal etc.

Here is a study breaking this passage down


In verses 1-3 we have an introduction to a new section which contains an allusion to the Ten Commandments and the New Covenant:

• First, there were, apparently, “letters of recommendation” that ministers were caring at this time, possibly for the purpose of avoiding false teachers, but it seems like in Paul’s view, a true “letter of recommendation” was the changed lives of the people he ministered to which was evident outwardly (verses 1-2).
• The reason for their change is because they have the New Covenant. Verse 3 is using New Covenant language (in fact we are sure of this, because verse 6 says “new covenant”). It says that they’re lives are letters written by the Spirit in the heart, and not by ink on “tablets of stone,” an allusion or quick hint to the Ten Commandments.
• A good hermeneutical move is to always go to where the author is referring or alluding to, in order to better understand what he means. Paul is borrowing New Covenant language directly from the actual prophecy about the New Covenant in Jer. 31:30-33 (cf. Ezek. 36:26-27). In Jeremiah 31:33, we read that God will write His “laws” in their mind and hearts. Since Paul, while speaking about this New Covenant, alludes to the Ten Commandments (tablets of stone), the law in this prophecy is the Ten Commandments being written in another location, the mind and heart.
• The New Covenant is, therefore, a total transformation of the heart, where sins are forgiven and forgotten, God’s Law is written in the heart by the Spirit, and people begin to actually live righteous lives (cf. Jer. 31:34, Ezek. 36:26-27). The Law can only be obeyed by the power of God’s Spirit.
• Therefore, the lives of the Corinthian Christians are living manifestations of God’s law. It was not abolished for them (which Mr. Tucker repeatedly says). On the contrary, their lives manifest obedience to it.
• This is the immediate context, and obviously what follows after this will not mean that the Ten Commandments was abolished for the Christian, since it is written in their hearts. The change was in location, from tablets of stone to “fleshy tables of the heart.”
• QUESTION: However, if what follows will show that the Ten commandments were abolished for the Christian, why are they still playing a role in the lives of Christians? Provide examples. See: Eph. 6:1-3 (actually, the whole letter of Ephesians alludes to various commandments to not break them, see 4:25 28, 29, 31, 5:3-5, 6), Rom. 3:31, 7:7-12, especially verse 13).

SECTION 2: THE LETTER KILLS, THE MINISTRATION OF DEATH

• In verse 4, Paul says that he is fully confident that they are living New Covenant lives which manifest obedience to the Ten Commandments from the heart rather than from tablets of stones (verses 2-3), because his trust is “through Christ toward God” and not in the work they did for them.
• Nevertheless, God made Paul the minister of this New Covenant, not of the letter, which previously was on stone and ink, but of the Spirit, which is now the Law written in the heart (verse 6a).
• The last clause of verse 6, and also verses 7 and 9 speak of the Law as something that kills, brings death and condemns. Why?
• Paul does not here say how the Law kills, but he does in Romans 7:7-13. It kills by revealing the source of death, which is sin! Compared with Psalm 119:86-88:
  
  “All Your commandments are faithful; They persecute me wrongfully; Help me! They almost made an end of me on earth, But I did not forsake Your precepts. Revive me according to Your lovingkindness, So that I may KEEP the testimony of Your mouth.” (Psa. 119:86-88. Note: Comparing the “commandments” here to Rom. 7:7, we learn that the specific laws that kill are the Ten Commandments, since Paul quotes from the tenth one to make his point).
• Psalm 119:86-88 may be referring to David’s enemies as the persecutors, but the clauses of each sentence indicate that the Law has a special function of revealing sin, especially when we compare them to Romans 7:7-13, which also speak of the commandments as something that kills, yet continues to be desirable by Paul.
• We learn from these references that: 1. The law kills in the sense that it reveals sin by pointing to our faults, and 2. This, however, should motivate us to obey it to be in harmony with it.

SECTION 3: TWO MINISTRATIONS: VERSE 9:

• The ministration of RIGHTEOUSNESS
• The ministration of CONDEMNATION

SECTION 4: WAS THE LAW ABOLISHED?

• LET US ASSUME THE TEXT MEANS THE LAW WAS ABOLISHED AS WELL. Various problems arise:
  
  –ONE: The immediate context says it is written in the heart (verses 2-3, cf. Jer. 31:33).
  –TWO: In Rom. 7:13 Paul asks, “Has then what is good (the commandment, verse 12) made death unto me?” His answer is a resounding, “certainly not!.”
  -No, because Paul also wrote that faith establishes, rather then abolishes, the law (Rom. 3:31).
  -No, because David, speaking of the same law that kills, views that as a good thing, and asks God to help him even more to keep it! (cf. Psa. 119:86-88).
• Compare verses 7 and 13 to Romans 3:21. Same Greek word: katargeo.
• The same Greek word in verse 7 is used in verse 13. Both mention what the Israelites could NOT look upon

SECTION 5: WHAT, THAN, WAS ABOLISHED?

• According to verses 7-13, the following things were abolished:
  
  -The ministration under Moses which included the ministry under the Old Dispensation, including the tablets of stone and, by implication, the entire earthly Sanctuary service, to be replaced with the ministration of the Spirit, with fleshy tablets and, by implication, a heavenly Sanctuary (cf. Heb. 8:2).
  -The face of Moses, his leadership, being replaced by the face of Christ, as the new High Priest.
• The tablets would not be necessary when its contents are lived out in the lives of believers. Christians should not be trying to measure up to standards that have not convicted their minds and transformed their thoughts. God wants people to want to do right, and He does this by writing His moral principles in their hearts as He previously wrote them on stone. The stones are no longer needed when its principles are lived and obeyed. Once again, believers would NOT insist on abolishing the Law if they truly have it written in the heart.

CONCLUSION: The critic asked, “When was the law established?” but this time quotes 2 Corinthians 3. According to the document we are examining, the law “ended at the cross for believers.” However, that is not what 2 Cor. 3 teaches. On the contrary, this chapter reinforces the Ten Commandments in a better way, as principles that are now written in the heart, rather than stone, under the New Covenant for believers.

This is what we get from the immediate context. The first three verses demonstrate what the lives of New Covenant believers look like. They have the Law of God written in the heart, and it is quite evident. They are, as Paul puts it, living epistles, “known and read by all men.” Paul borrows language from the New Covenant in Jer. 31:33 and alludes to the Ten Commandments when he mentioned the “tablets of stones.” In other words, these Corinthians believers have the Ten Commandments written in their hearts, as promised in the New Covenant prophecy, and everyone can see it by their lives and acts. We know it is “ten” commandments, which includes the fourth, because the “tablets of stone” contained ten, not nine. Therefore, all Ten Commandments are written in their hearts, and as the other nine are practiced both spiritually and practically, so with the fourth one. Anyone living the New Covenant experience, therefore, will not be going around claiming that the Law “ended for believers.”

The conclusion drawn is that the first few verses speak about the Law written in the heart and lived out by the Corinthians believers, what follows after verse 3, therefore, does not abolish the Law. A careful look at the remaining verses reveal that indeed something was abolished, and that was the old ministration of the Law under Moses, along Moses himself and the tablets of stone. The contents of the Law, however, were transferred to the heart. A comparison with verse 13 with the actual story Paul is talking about, found in Exo. 34:29-35, reveals that what was abolished was that which “the children of Israel could NOT look steadily at…” In Exo. 34, the tablets of stone were in plain view in the hands of Moses, but his face was covered. Nevertheless, there is no longer a need for the stone tablets, not that its contents are in the mind and hearts of New Covenant believers.

Not only does the immediate context not allow for the contents of the tablets to be abolished, Paul says in Rom. 3:31 that the Law is NOT made “void” to believers. The Greek word translated “void” is the same one translated “abolished” or “passing away” in 2 Cor. 3.

2 Cor. 3 also explains that the tablets of stone are referred to as the “ministration of death” and “condemnation.” This is because, as Paul explains elsewhere, the Ten Commandments reveal sin, and sin brings death (see Rom. 7:7-11, cf. James. 1:15). Nevertheless, the commandment that does this is considered “holy, just and good” and that which is good does NOT become death to believers (see verses 12-13). Of course, because as 2 Cor. 3 says, it is written in the heart.

PART 2: POINT BY POINT RESPONSE TO AN ADVENTIST CRITIC: 2 CORINTHIANS 3 - Advent Defense League

adventdefenseleague.com

You didn’t quote me in this post. He didn’t say anything about the location being changed he said that the laws written written on stones brought death and that it would fade away. The term fade away doesn’t imply relocation is implies to be done away with, replaced with the law of the Spirit. The implications in the passage indicate two different sets of laws not the exact same laws.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Oh, oh, such loaded reaction. Nobody here claims that Paul can save us. However, I will boldly claim that we are not supposed to copy the life of Christ, because our environment is different and we are not Jews. We must follow what applies to us and Paul was the apostle to Gentiles.

How very wrong, I know Paul did say, "follow me as I follow Christ" but I remind you that Jesus said clearly:

John 13:16 (NKJV):
"Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him."

Matthew 10:24 (NKJV):
"A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master."

John 15:20 (NKJV):
"Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also."

Christ is Not Obsolete he is one with GOD, we all should follow him. He gave us the examples to follow yet even today, man is still the same and that has not changed.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

What was finger written by God was also hand written later! When Jesus referred to "the Law," he was referring to the entire Law, including the 10 Commandments. This was all "hand-written" by the scribes of Israel, who had to repeatedly copy them to preserve them.

This is the hand-written Law that was nailed to the Cross, so that it no longer applies to us as "sinners." We are now looked upon as "forgiven saints."

The penalty of the law was what was nailed to the cross not the law itself.
Colossians 2:14 states that Christ "wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us" and "nailed it to the cross." Some believe this means God's law was abolished, but that contradicts Jesus' own words. In Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus clearly said He did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it, and that not even the smallest part would pass away until all is accomplished. The key phrase in Colossians 2:14, "handwriting of requirements," refers to a legal debt or record of guilt, not God's moral law. In ancient times, debts were written down and canceled when paid. Jesus nailed our record of sins to the cross by taking our punishment upon Himself. The law itself was never against us—sin and its consequences were. Deuteronomy 6:24 states that God's commandments were given for our good, while Romans 6:23 affirms that sin leads to death. Ephesians 2:15 further distinguishes between God's eternal moral law and the temporary ordinances that pointed to Christ. Paul's own words in Romans 7:12 affirm that the law is holy and good. Colossians 2:14 speaks of forgiveness, not the abolition of God's commandments. Jesus upheld the law and called His followers to obey it, proving that the law was not nailed to the cross—our sins were.

 

[trophy33]

How very wrong, I know Paul did say, "follow me as I follow Christ" but I remind you that Jesus said clearly:

John 13:16 (NKJV):
"Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him."

Matthew 10:24 (NKJV):
"A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master."

John 15:20 (NKJV):
"Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also."

Christ is Not Obsolete he is one with GOD, we all should follow him. He gave us the examples to follow yet even today, man is still the same and that has not changed.

What a random selection of verses. Nobody claimed that Paul is greater than Jesus or anything like that. I claimed that we are not supposed to copy the life of Christ, because we are not Jews and our environment is different.

Paul got the mandate (from Christ) to teach Gentiles what to do. He had the authority to say what applies to us and what does not.