SALVATION

[Clare73]

But you don't have to show it do you?

You pretty much can't keep from it.

Imagine if someone is the world's best swimmer but he never showed that to anyone.

To repeat the Biblically obvious. . .

If one who claims to be the world's best swimmer continually cannot swim well, one is not the world's best swimmer.
If one who claims to be saved continually chooses to not practice obedience to the word of God, one is not saved.

You fail to understand the nature of salvation. . .it is a radical change of disposition, which is not masked.

Are you vested in believers being free to willfully choose to disobey the word of God, which the OT calls high-handed sin, for which there was no sacrifice (no atonement, no salvation), and which in the NT is the equivalent of willfully choosing disobedience to the word of God, which means one is not saved (no atonement)?

 

[AbbaLove]

... even if a person never showed that they are a saved born-again Christian, obviously they would still be a saved, born-again Christian and nothing would change that.

Not according to my Bible ... You don't even realize how "luke-warm" is your theology? satan and his co-hurts appauld your theology. The “faith” of demons is useless, even though they tremble at what they know to be true. People who say they “believe” in God while showing no evidence of faith have a level of “belief” similar to that of demons.

So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (ESV)​

So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. (NIV)​

So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth. (NASB)​

It's not possible to be a "saved born-again Christian" without anyone ever knowing. It's impossible for a true follower of Christ to remain silent

Because of one's love it's now easy for them(saved born-again) to share their Faith in the Good News with others ... because the Holy Spirit now resides with them ... teaching and guiding them in righteous actions with word and deed that glorifies Christ (not man).

 

[fhansen]

I’m not stuck on isolated passages. The passage I quoted is very specific that rightness is credited to us by faith. It’s a foreign righteousness. You seem to think that there’s enough good in you that can be added to Christ. That’s just nonsense.

No, nonsense would be to claim that I said that. The good comes from Him and is added to me. Not merely imputed to me or declared of me.

Think of justification as communion with God, that's the difference that faith makes, that's the difference between the new covenant and the Old Covenant. Intrinsic to that relationship is righteousness, justice. He puts a new heart and spirit in us, He puts his law in our minds and writes it on our hearts as we become his people.Ez 26 and Jer 31.

 

[Clare73]

This is good. Echoing the immortal words of Hammster, "Surprisingly, I agree with this." Some believe, apparently based on their particular take on Sola Fide, that obedience automatically means or is equivalent to "works of the law", which is anathema to them.

Works of the Decalogue are not in themselves anathema, they are anathema only as the means of salvation, they are not anathema as the means of sanctification.

But obedience under the new covenant is a work of the Spirit, a work of grace. "But", they may contest, "how much obedience, how much righteousness, is enough?" Because under the law only perfect obedience will suffice, right?

Obedience is not a matter of salvation, it is the evidence of salvation.
No evidence demonstrates no salvation.

But under grace, we let God determine how much suffices,

No amount of obedience suffices for salvation, for salvation is not by works of obedience, it is by faith alone (Eph 2:8-9).
Works of obedience are the natural outcome of that gift of faith which is salvation, of that radical change of disposition.
If there is no natural outcome of works, that means no salvation has taken place, one is not saved.
But the works do not produce the salvation, they are simply the spiritual result of that salvation.

That is a mighty difference in God's economy. . .for God must get all the glory, because in justice he deserves it, he has earned it,
in justice man gets none ( Isa 42:8, 48:11).

 

[Hammster]

No, nonsense would be to claim that I said that. The good comes from Him and is added to me. Not merely imputed to me or declared of me.

Think of justification as communion with God, that's the difference that faith makes, that's the difference between the new covenant and the Old Covenant. Intrinsic to that relationship is righteousness, justice. He puts a new heart and spirit in us, He puts his law in our minds and writes it on our hearts as we become his people.Ez 26 and Jer 31.

For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
— Romans 4:3

 

[fhansen]

For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
— Romans 4:3

Read all of Scripture, some of which I've already provided but which you've apparently ignored, so that you get the full understanding of the faith and so better understand Rom 4 as well.

Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness because to believe in God is right, with all that is implied in that turning to God rather than relying on myself myself, including right actions.

 

[Clare73]

No, nonsense would be to claim that I said that. The good comes from Him and is added to me. Not merely imputed to me or declared of me.

It is both. . .

Righteousness is imputed to you (dikaiosis, dikaioma) at faith and salvation, giving you right standing and communication with God. . .
and worked in you (dikaiosune) through the obedience of that faith and salvation.

Think of justification as communion with God,

As declaring one forensically righteous (not guilty, sin forgiven by faith) and, therefore, communication with God not inhibited by guilt of sin.

that's the difference that faith makes, that's the difference between the new covenant and the Old Covenant. Intrinsic to that relationship is righteousness, justice. He puts a new heart and spirit in us, He puts his law in our minds and writes it on our hearts as we become his people.Ez 26 and Jer 31.

Actually righteous (sanctification) through obedience in the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hammster]

Read all of Scripture, some of which I've already provided but which you've apparently ignored, so that you get the full understanding of the faith and so better understand Rom 4 as well.

Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness because to believe in God is right, with all that is implied in that turning to God rather than relying on myself myself, including right actions.

Yes. And that’s all it is. You are the one that keeps adding to righteousness.

 

[Clare73]

Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness because to believe in God is right,

Believing in God does not save, for Orthodox Jews believe in God but deny Christ and, therefore, are not saved.

The faith that saved Abraham was faith in what the Lord said (Ge 15:6); i.e., the promise (Ge 15:5, 3:15, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

with all that is implied in that turning to God rather than relying on myself myself, including right actions.

"All that is implied" is faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of one's sin and right standing with God; i.e., not guilty. . .which faith will necessarily manifest in obedience.

 

[fhansen]

Yes. And that’s all it is. You are the one that keeps adding to righteousness.

How can you say that?? Righteousness is righteousness; we either possess it or we don't. The new covenant provides the authentic means to obtain it. But over and over again at least you've been consistent- in accepting Scripture that agrees with your theology, while ignoring and rejecting any that conflicts with it.

If I haven't presented this already, I can reconcile the following passages with no problem while you'd have to find a way to somehow accommodate then so they don't conflict:

“For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:20

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.” Matt 6:14-15

“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

"We hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law". Romans 3:28

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.“ Rom 5:1-2

“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:1-2, 21

“Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?”

“But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Rom 6:16, 22

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 3-4, 8:12-14

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

“You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:24

“…for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified". Galatians 2:16

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast". For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Ephesians 2:8-10

“…continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.” Phil 2:12-13

 

[fhansen]

It is both. . .

Righteousness is imputed to you (dikaiosis, dikaioma) at faith and salvation, giving you right standing and communication with God. . .
and worked in you (dikaiosune) through the obedience of that faith and salvation.

Ok?? So we do receive righteousness after all rather than merely being forgiven and declared righteous?

As declaring one forensically righteous (not guilty, sin forgiven by faith) and, therefore, communication with God not inhibited by guilt of sin.

Ok? In any case justification cannot be separated from communion with God, just as man's injustice consists of man's separation from Him. Its mor than a forensic declaration, a change in status only, but a change in man.

Actually righteous (sanctification) through obedience in the Holy Spirit.

Actually, the Spirit (God) is our righteousness, our justice, the only true source of it. That's why we must enter communion/fellowship with Him. And that the purpose of faith.

 

[Hammster]

How can you say that?? Righteousness is righteousness; we either possess it or we don't.

We don’t. We have Christ’s righteousness credited to us.

The new covenant provides the authentic means to obtain it.

Through credit.

But over and over again at least you've been consistent- in accepting Scripture that agrees with your theology, while ignoring and rejecting any that conflicts with it.

Scripture doesn’t contradict.

If I haven't presented this already, I can reconcile the following passages with no problem while you'd have to find a way to somehow accommodate then so they don't conflict:

“For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:20

Right. Christ’s righteousness

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.” Matt 6:14-15

Okay

“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

You can’t be saved by keeping the law, because we can’t keep the law. Thankfully, Christ did and Hid righteousness is credited to us.

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

Yes. The elect do that. But I don’t know what that has to do with this discussion.

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

You may want to check out the actual context of that one.

"We hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law". Romans 3:28

Yes.

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.“ Rom 5:1-2

Yes.

“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:1-2, 21

Yes.

“Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?”

“But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Rom 6:16, 22

Amen.

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

Yes.

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 3-4, 8:12-14

Sanctification. That’s not justification, though.

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

Yes.

“You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:24

You might want to look at the context.

“…for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified". Galatians 2:16

Amen. So stop trying.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast". For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” Ephesians 2:8-10

Yes.

“…continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.” Phil 2:12-13

Yep. Sanctification.

I’m not sure what you hoped to prove here.

 

[fhansen]

Believing in God does not save, for Orthodox Jews believe in God but deny Christ and, therefore, are not saved.

Actually, one cannot know God if they deny Christ, since He's the only way one can know God. It'd be like seeing God in front of you and yet not believing in Him. Meanwhile, plenty of religions profess faith in God.

The faith that saved Abraham was faith in what the Lord said (Ge 15:6); i.e., the promise (Ge 15:5, 3:15, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

And?? Yes, faith is more than some rote belief-it's to know and so to trust in and rely on God, for one. That's already been said. And to do so is, again, the right thing-it's to recognize and to make God our God again. And justice is already being fulfilled in that act while Adam's rejection of God as his God constituted the basic injustice sometimes known as original sin.

"All that is implied" is faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of one's sin and right standing with God; i.e., not guilty. . .which faith will necessarily manifest in obedience.

All that is implied is that God becomes man's God again-and that's a vast difference for man. That's why Jesus came.

 

[fhansen]

Works of the Decalogue are not in themselves anathema, they are anathema only as the means of salvation, they are not anathema as the means of sanctification.

Works of the law count for nothing. Works of grace, of love, count for everything, and fulfill the law by their nature. That's how the law, which Jesus came not to abolish, becomes authentically fulfilled; that's how obedience to the commandments which leads to eternal life is accomplished (Matt 19:17). That's why Rom 2:13 can make so much sense:
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."

Obedience is not a matter of salvation, it is the evidence of salvation.
No evidence demonstrates no salvation.

According to Clare, maybe, but not Scripture.

No amount of obedience suffices for salvation, for salvation is not by works of obedience, it is by faith alone (Eph 2:8-9).
Works of obedience are the natural outcome of that gift of faith which is salvation, of that radical change of disposition.
If there is no natural outcome of works, that means no salvation has taken place, one is not saved.
But the works do not produce the salvation, they are simply the spiritual result of that salvation.

Salvation is a process, a journey, that involves our participation, not some one-time event.

That is a mighty difference in God's economy. . .for God must get all the glory, because in justice he deserves it, he has earned it,
in justice man gets none ( Isa 42:8, 48:11).

Isaiah is just saying there that we may bow down to nothing else than God.

"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." Rom 8:28-30

God is love and the nature of love is to share; He doesn't selfishly revel or bask in His glory alone but wants us to become like Him.

 

[fhansen]

We don’t. We have Christ’s righteousness credited to us.

More Scripture ignored.

Through credit.

By obtaining it.

Scripture doesn’t contradict.

Right, you've been contradicting Scripture.

Amen.

So now were getting somewhere; we must be holy, not merely declared to be holy.

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God." 1 John 3:7-9

You may want to check out the actual context of that one.

I have. Again, there's no reason to look for alternative explanations when one understands the gospel.

Sanctification. That’s not justification, though.

They're the same, inseparable. Sanctification is the continuation, confirmation, and growth in the justice already received. It's the working out of salvation. Sanctification wouldn't even be people unless a change has taken place in us. We're more than forgiven sinners; the old man had been replaced by the life of God in us.

You might want to look at the context.

I have. Again, no conflict. James is meaning to ensure that no one thinks that faith and right living can be separate from one another, as if one could profess faith while thinking that their actions/works don't matter.

Amen. So stop trying.

You're still not getting it. We try by remaining in and cooperating with Him, we make effort to be holy by living the life of grace, walking by the Spirit. Again, read all of Scripture.
“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

The wages of sin are still death under the new covenant. A merely declared righteousness will not suffice. Paul tells believers:

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." Gal 6:7-9

I’m not sure what you hoped to prove here.

I think it's more a matter of your not wanting to know...

 

[Clare73]

Ok?? So we do receive righteousness after all rather than merely being forgiven and declared righteous?

We are both declared righteous (justification) at faith/salvation (Ro 3:28), and then actually become righteous/holy/sanctified (Ro 6:16, 19) in the Christian life through obedience in the Holy Spirit.

Ok? In any case justification cannot be separated from communion with God, just as man's injustice consists of man's separation from Him. Its mor than a forensic declaration, a change in status only, but a change in man.

I suspect we are using the word "justice" (dike) differently.
I use "justice" only in reference to what is right, "giving to each what he has earned, what he is owed," as at the Judgment, or in a Court.
I do not use it in reference to righteousness (sanctification), as in "justification" (dikaiosis, dikaioma) of Ro 4:25, 5:18.

If I understand you correctly, I would say yours above as: man's separation from God consists of man's spiritual death and unregeneration, remedied only in the sovereign rebirth of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), whose choice is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8).

Actually, the Spirit (God) is our righteousness, our justice, the only true source of it. That's why we must enter communion/fellowship with Him. And that the purpose of faith.

That is what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through the new birth is (Jn 3:3-5).

 

[Clare73]

Works of the law count for nothing. Works of grace, of love, count for everything, and fulfill the law by their nature. That's how the law, which Jesus came not to abolish, becomes authentically fulfilled; that's how obedience to the commandments which leads to eternal life is accomplished (Matt 19:17). That's why Rom 2:13 can make so much sense:
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."
According to Clare, maybe, but not Scripture.
Salvation is a process, a journey, that involves our participation, not some one-time event.

And that participation is called obedience (Ro 6:16, 19) according to Ro 2:13 above.

Isaiah is just saying there that we may bow down to nothing else than God

Actually, Isaiah is saying there exactly what the words there mean (Isa 42:8, 48:11).

God is love and the nature of love is to share; He doesn't selfishly revel or bask in His glory alone but wants us to become like Him.

I'm sure you'll understand if I take God at his word in Isa 42:8, 48:11, rather than at your human notions of it

 

[Hammster]

More Scripture ignored.

By obtaining it.

Right, you've been contradicting Scripture.

So now were getting somewhere; we must be holy, not merely declared to be holy.

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God." 1 John 3:7-9


I have. Again, there's no reason to look for alternative explanations when one understands the gospel.

They're the same, inseparable. Sanctification is the continuation, confirmation, and growth in the justice already received. It's the working out of salvation. Sanctification wouldn't even be people unless a change has taken place in us. We're more than forgiven sinners; the old man had been replaced by the life of God in us.

I have. Again, no conflict. James is meaning to ensure that no one thinks that faith and right living can be separate from one another, as if one could profess faith while thinking that their actions/works don't matter.

You're still not getting it. We try by remaining in and cooperating with Him, we make effort to be holy by living the life of grace, walking by the Spirit. Again, read all of Scripture.
“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

The wages of sin are still death under the new covenant. A merely declared righteousness will not suffice. Paul tells believers:

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." Gal 6:7-9

I think it's more a matter of your not wanting to know...

Your argument is that righteousness isn’t credited to us, despite what Paul says. Then you carpet bomb a post with a bunch of verses that have little to do with justification and more to do with sanctification.

And then, for reasons only know to you, you throw in an ad hom comment. This is not effective debate strategy.

 

[fhansen]

Your argument is that righteousness isn’t credited to us, despite what Paul says. Then you carpet bomb a post with a bunch of verses that have little to do with justification and more to do with sanctification.

And then, for reasons only know to you, you throw in an ad hom comment. This is not effective debate strategy.

What does a declaration of righteousness mean in your opinion? If it means acquittal, the forgiveness of sin, I never denied that but made it very clear that it means more than only that. Why, do you think, that God won’t forgive our sins if we don’t forgive others their sins-if we’re already declared righteous forensically?

Abraham appeared just in Gods eyes, because faith is justice- the right thing for man to do, the right place for man to be vis a vis God. God declared Abraham just, or credited righteousness to him. because he saw him as just because of his belief, not the other way around.

I quoted verses that show that our justification consists of more than looking right in God's eyes but in being right and acting accordingly-and that the first right thing a man can do is to believe in Him, born out by our actions, with both, faith and the works He's prepared for us, being free gifts of grace that we may embrace or reject. Again, justification and sanctification are part and parcel of the same thing, being translated into a new creation. Otherwise Rom 6:22 or 8:12-13, as examples, make no sense. Why would I need to become holy, or be a debtor with an obligation to overcome sin in order to gain eternal life, if I'm already righteous in God's eyes by declaration?

The right understanding is that, by virtue of faith in God, I've already moved into a right state of being; justice/righteousness are restored to fallen man as he comes into union with and subjugation to God.

And where’s the ad hominem? In saying that you contradict Scripture, which is what we’ve both been telling each other all along?

 

[fhansen]

We are both declared righteous (justification) at faith/salvation (Ro 3:28), and then actually become righteous/holy/sanctified (Ro 6:16, 19) in the Christian life through obedience in the Holy Spirit.

It happens at the same time-as a single package. We enter a new life with God as we turn to Him in faith. Within that vital relationship, as branches grafted in, we are continuously divinely nourished as all men are meant to be. If we stray away, we lose that vital connection, that life-giving flow of nourishment, and wither.

I suspect we are using the word "justice" (dike) differently.
I use "justice" only in reference to what is right, "giving to each what he has earned, what he is owed," as at the Judgment, or in a Court.
I do not use it in reference to righteousness (sanctification), as in "justification" (dikaiosis, dikaioma) of Ro 4:25, 5:18.

"Justice" is often used historically by theologians-along with ethicists and philosophers- to denote a virtue. I know the term used that way can sound unfamiliar to some so I often combine it with "righteousness". The virtue of justice is what enables us to do what is right, to be able to walk justly, as per Micah 6:8, for example. It is a gift of grace, requiring oneness with God.

If I understand you correctly, I would say yours above as: man's separation from God consists of man's spiritual death and unregeneration, remedied only in the sovereign rebirth of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), whose choice is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8).

The gospel cannot be correctly and fully understood without the inclusion of man's assent in the equation, prompted, coaxed, informed, and moved by God but not outright changed by Him so that we would have no choice but to choose rightly.

That is what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through the new birth is (Jn 3:3-5).

Yes, and the new birth comes by faith, which comes by hearing, which means that we should turn to God as we begin to know Him and His will for man as revealed by His Son..