SALVATION

[AbbaLove]

For years i (as well as thousands of others) believed one's salvation was no more complicated than John 3:16-17 ...

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him (Mark 12:30) shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.​

As usual leave it to 21st century so-called Christain mankind to still debate SALVATION over and over again - now going on 7 pages in this latest CF thread. The result possibly being some lurking seekers are left wondering if they want to have anything to do with religious Christendom and so-called Christians that disagree more than agree when it comes to what's most important to attaining eternal life (i.e. SALVATION).

And you shall love the Lord your God out of and with your whole heart and out of and with all your soul (your life) and out of and with all your mind (with your faculty of thought and your moral understanding) and out of and with all your strength. This is the first and principal commandment. (Mark 12:30 - AMPC)​

Perhaps not realizing that to do so is only possible with the abiding pesence, guidance and comfort provided by His Holy Spirit. We need to surrender our human will (no matter how admirble we think it is) to His Will. To do so is only possible when our eyes and ears are spiritually aligned with His and not to worldly passions that may seem just at the time, but only last for a season.

 

[Hammster]

What does a declaration of righteousness mean in your opinion? If it means acquittal, the forgiveness of sin, I never denied that but made it very clear that it means more than only that. Why, do you think, that God won’t forgive our sins if we don’t forgive others their sins-if we’re already declared righteous forensically?

Abraham appeared just in Gods eyes, because faith is justice- the right thing for man to do, the right place for man to be vis a vis God. God declared Abraham just, or credited righteousness to him. because he saw him as just because of his belief, not the other way around.

I quoted verses that show that our justification consists of more than looking right in God's eyes but in being right and acting accordingly-and that the first right thing a man can do is to believe in Him, born out by our actions, with both, faith and the works He's prepared for us, being free gifts of grace that we may embrace or reject. Again, justification and sanctification are part and parcel of the same thing, being translated into a new creation. Otherwise Rom 6:22 or 8:12-13, as examples, make no sense. Why would I need to become holy, or be a debtor with an obligation to overcome sin in order to gain eternal life, if I'm already righteous in God's eyes by declaration?

The right understanding is that, by virtue of faith in God, I've already moved into a right state of being; justice/righteousness are restored to fallen man as he comes into union with and subjugation to God.

It means declared. That’s it. Anything else is adding to scripture.

And where’s the ad hominem? In saying that you contradict Scripture, which is what we’ve both been telling each other all along?

“I think it's more a matter of your not wanting to know...”

 

[Clare73]

What does a declaration of righteousness mean in your opinion? If it means acquittal, the forgiveness of sin, I never denied that but made it very clear that it means more than only that.

No, justification/righteousness (diakaiosis, diakaioma) does not mean more than forensic righteousness--a declaration/sentence of "not quilty."

It is sanctification/righteousness (diakaiosune) that does mean more than that; i.e., actual righteousness.

Why, do you think, that God won’t forgive our sins if we don’t forgive others their sins-if we’re already declared righteous forensically?

God won't forgive our sins if we don't forgive others because our lack of forgiveness shows we do not actually have true saving faith/forensic righteousness, because true faith forgives others.

You keep mistaking the sign/manifestation of the fact for the cause of the fact.
Forgiveness of others is not the cause of God's forgiveness of us. . .forgiveness of others is the effect of God's forgiveness of us. . .
no forgiveness by us is because we have no (heart of) forgiveness from God.
Those who do not forgive do not have eternal life because they have not first been forgiven and saved by God in his Son.

God declared Abraham just, or credited righteousness to him.

No, Abraham was righteous in God's eyes because by his faith his sin was forgiven, gone--no unrighteousness remaining because of Christ's perfect work applied to him.

However, it yet remained for him to actually grow in righteousness through the sanctification of obedience in the Holy Spirit.

The NT distinguishes between justification (righteousness) in Ro 3:28 and sanctification (righteousess) in Ro 6:16, 19.
It seems you are not clear on the distinction.

because he saw him as just because of his belief, not the other way around.

Belief in what?
Belief in God does not make one righteous.
Orthodox Jews believe in God, but they are not righteous. . .because they reject God"s only Son as their Messiah and are, therefore, condemned by Jesus himself (Jn 3:18), along with all those who reject Jesus Christ.

It was Abraham's belief in the promise (Seed, Ge 15:5, 3:15, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) that conferred righteousness, because sin is forgiven by that faith.

Likewise, forensic righteousness (justification, Ro 3:28) does not confer actual righteousness (sanctification), it only confers forgiveness of sin. One then grows in actual righteousness (sanctification) through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16, 19).

No growth in actual righteousness means there was no forensic righteousness, because there was no true faith, there was only counterfeit faith (Mt 7:21-23).

I quoted verses that show that our justification consists of more than looking right in God's eyes but in being right and acting accordingly-

Justification/right standing (righteousness, "looking right") before God is a matter of Gods declaration of sin forgiven through faith in the atoning work of his Son, which faith is the forgiveness of one's sin; i.e., salvation from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9).
Justification (imputed righteousness, Ro 4:1-7) is because one's sin is gone, one is now in right standing with God; i.e., not guilty, debt paid, sentence cancelled.

Sanctification (righteousness) through obedience in the Holy Spirit is the necessary outcome of that true faith which saves, but it is never the cause of that salvation itself (Eph 2:8-9).

and that the first right thing a man can do is to believe in Him, born out by our actions, with both, faith and the works He's prepared for us, being free gifts of grace that we may embrace or reject. Again, justification and sanctification are part and parcel of the same thing, being translated into a new creation. Otherwise Rom 6:22 or 8:12-13, as examples, make no sense. Why would I need to become holy, or be a debtor with an obligation to overcome sin in order to gain eternal life, if I'm already righteous in God's eyes by declaration?

The right understanding is that, by virtue of faith in God, I've already moved into a right state of being; justice/righteousness are restored to fallen man as he comes into union with and subjugation to God.

The right understanding is that faith is a gift (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3), by which bestowed gift forgiveness of sin and right standing (justification) with God is granted/bestowed, not "moved into."

You attribute to man that which is God's work alone, to man "moving into," when it is God alone "granting to, bestowing upon."

 

[fhansen]

It means declared. That’s it. Anything else is adding to scripture.

“I think it's more a matter of your not wanting to know...”

That's a common enough activity of man-and it's frustrating to me here because it's almost as if one doesn't even wish to consider and see the forest- preferring just the trees instead. And it's an important question. Does God declare one righteous because He sees and acknowledges their righteousness, or because He's imputed it to them? It's not enough to say, "It means declared."

 

[Clare73]

For years i (as well as thousands of others) believed one's salvation was no more complicated than John 3:16-17 ...

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him (Mark 12:30) shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.​

As usual leave it to 21st century so-called Christain mankind to still debate SALVATION over and over again - now going on 7 pages in this latest CF thread. The result possibly being some lurking seekers are left wondering if they want to have anything to do with religious Christendom and so-called Christians that disagree more than agree when it comes to what's most important to attaining eternal life (i.e. SALVATION).

Keeping in mind that it is not human reasoning that brings one to faith, it is the Holy Spirit, whose work does not fail because of debate.

 

[Hammster]

That's a common enough activity of man-and it's frustrating to me here because it's almost as if one doesn't even wish to consider and see the forest- preferring just the trees instead. And it's an important question. Does God declare one righteous because He sees and acknowledges their righteousness, or because He's imputed it to them? It's not enough to say, "It means declared."

If I was saying it, I’d agree. But what does scripture say?

For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
— Romans 4:3

And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
— Genesis 15:6

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

It's not possible to be a "saved born-again Christian" without anyone ever knowing. It's impossible for a true follower of Christ to remain silent

Then why did Peter remain silent by denying Christ in that Bible story? Not only was Peter saved, he even was a disciple. And yet he STILL denied Jesus. So it definitely is possible.

 

[AbbaLove]

It appears Clare73 failed to read the last paragrpah in his post to me The following is not so much judgement as discernment ...

Last pragraph of post #141 ...

Perhaps not realizing that to do so (Mark 12:30 is only possible with the abiding pesence, guidance and comfort provided by His Holy Spirit. We need to surrender our human will (no matter how admirble we think it is) to His Will. To do so is only possible when our eyes and ears are spiritually aligned with His and not to worldly passions that may seem just at the time, but only last for a season.​

Spiritually in tune with His Spirit by not debating endless religious denominational theology that has this recent CF SALVATION thread now going on 8 pages.

""Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"[/indent]

If i've somehow offended a brother in Christ please forgive me ​

 

[AbbaLove]

Then why did Peter remain silent by denying Christ in that Bible story? Not only was Peter saved, he even was a disciple. And yet he STILL denied Jesus. So it definitely is possible.

The Lord's Feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) was approximately 50 days after Peter's silent... when the Lord's Followers were Baptized with fire and then proceeded to proclaim the Good News in other languages for many in Jerusalem to hear. Have you yet been baptized by His Holy Spirit?

No. no, no .... Peter did NOT remain silent after receiving the Holy Spirit at Pentecost ...

John 14:25-26​

But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.​

 

[Clare73]

It appears Clare73 failed to read the last paragrpah in his post to me The following is not so much judgement as discernment ...

Last pragraph of post #141 ...

You most definitely have me confused with someone else.

 

[Clare73]

That's a common enough activity of man-and it's frustrating to me here because it's almost as if one doesn't even wish to consider and see the forest- preferring just the trees instead. And it's an important question. Does God declare one righteous because He sees and acknowledges their righteousness, or because He's imputed it to them? It's not enough to say, "It means declared."

God declares one righteous (justification), which means he declares (as a Judge in a Court) their sin forgiven, declares them "not guilty," declares their sin removed, declares them sinless; i.e., forensically righteous.
But sinlessness (forensic righteousness) is not the same as the sanctification (actual righteousness of character through obedience in the Holy Spirit), to which forensic righteousness necessarily leads.

 

[fhansen]

God declares one righteous (justification), which means he declares (as a Judge in a Court) their sin forgiven, declares them "not guilty," declares their sin removed, declares them sinless; i.e., forensically righteous.
But sinlessness (forensic righteousness) is not the same as the sanctification (actual righteousness of character through obedience in the Holy Spirit), to which forensic righteousness necessarily leads.

God's not interested in our pretend righteousness. Yes, sins are forgiven which, as I said, is all that a declared righteousness amounts to otherwise. But there's much more to being justified than that.

 

[fhansen]

If I was saying it, I’d agree. But what does scripture say?

For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
— Romans 4:3

And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
— Genesis 15:6

Yes, because it is righteous to believe in the Lord. If we understand that as the basis of God declaration then we agree. I apologize in any case if I was offensive. I also apologize that further edification for you may be off and on for a while as I'm traveling for a few days now .

 

[Hammster]

Yes, because it is righteous to believe in the Lord. If we understand that as the basis of God declaration then we agree. I apologize in any case if I was offensive. I also apologize that further edification for you may be off and on for a while as I'm traveling for a few days now .

No, it’s counted as righteous to believe. That is what the text says.

 

[Clare73]

God's not interested in our pretend righteousness. Yes, sins are forgiven which, as I said, is all that a declared righteousness amounts to otherwise. But there's much more to being justified than that.

Feel free to Biblically demonstrate you assertion.

All the rest is being "sanctified" (Ro 6:16, 19), after being "justified"
(declared "not guilty," made acceptable to God by sin forgiven/removed through faith, Ro 3:28).

 

[fhansen]

No, it’s counted as righteous to believe. That is what the text says.

I didn't say it wasn't

 

[Hammster]

I didn't say it wasn't

Yes you did.

“Yes, because it is righteous to believe in the Lord.” (Emphasis yours)

 

[Clare73]

Yes, because it is righteous to believe in the Lord.

No. . .because righteousness requires no guilt of sin, and that was accomplished with faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of one's sin guilt.

If we understand that as the basis of God declaration then we agree.

No, the basis for God's declaration of righteous is the faith by which God forgives/cancels the guilt of sin because its penalty has been paid.

 

[fhansen]

Yes you did.

“Yes, because it is righteous to believe in the Lord.” (Emphasis yours)

Of course. That's why his faith was counted as righteousness. (Emphasis mine again).

 

[Hammster]

Of course. That's why his faith was counted as righteousness. (Emphasis mine again).

So his faith was counted as righteous because he was righteous?