SALVATION

[AbbaLove]

Yes, the Holy Spirit is actually the Source of our obedience, the only authentic source, and yet a source whom we may yet ignore.

That's why mature Christian fellowship is to encourage (with discernment) and not be quick to judge.

Yes, this is true, but a believer can be sidetracked into hell. A professed faith means little to nothing if not accompanied by a *walked faith.

Then you know who is quick to reply ... "as long as it isn't by *works" (as if works can't be inspired by the Holy Spirit)

He may nott believe that these same nine works are still in operation today ... "Wisdom, Special Knowledge, Faith, Healing, Miracles, Prophecy, Distinguishing Between Spirits (Discernment), Tongues, Interpretation of Tongues.... preceeding and followed by ... "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith," ...

"God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments" ...​

​

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"​

 

[Hammster]

At justification we are gifted with grace,

No. You can’t (or at least shouldn’t) change the definitions of words to fit your theology.

 

[fhansen]

No. You can’t (or at least shouldn’t) change the definitions of words to fit your theology.

Anyone who believes that the life of grace does not accompany justification, and that justification does not mean more than forgiveness, does not understand the term, or the purpose of justification. We both apparently believe that man must live a just life, of obedience, in order to see God, that forgiveness by itself would be insufficient, IOW. So what would be the purpose of a merely declared righteousness, of right standing with God, if that status alone could not save us?

God truly, freely, justifies the ungodly. The reason that Abraham was declared just due to his faith was because that act, itself, by its nature, of acknowledging God's existence, goodness, mercy, superiority, and wisdom, is justice, placing man into a state of justice, of rectitude, no longer alienated from God but now united with Him. That state is the right place, that which we were created for, now in solidarity with and subjugated to God as all creation is meant to be. For man that state is both a gift and a choice. a gift of grace and yet a gift we must embrace and express. And as we do we are aligning ourselves with Him, the source of all true justice/righteousness for man, the source of love, to put it best. That's why faith pleases Him so immensely; it's extremely good for us, to put it mildly.

 

[Hammster]

Anyone who believes that the life of grace does not accompany justification, and that justification does not mean more than forgiveness, does not understand the term, or the purpose of justification. We both apparently believe that man must life a just life, of obedience, in order to see God, that forgiveness by itself would be insufficient, IOW. So what would be the purpose of a merely declared righteousness, of right standing with God, if that status alone could not save us?

God truly, freely, justifies the ungodly. The reason that Abraham was declared just due to his faith was because that act, itself, by its nature, of acknowledging God's existence, goodness, mercy, superiority, and wisdom, is justice, placing man into a state of justice, of rectitude, no longer alienated from God but now united with Him. That state is the right place, that which we were created for, now in solidarity with and subjugated to God as all creation is meant to be. For man that state is both a gift and a choice. a gift of grace and yet a gift we must embrace and express. And as we do we are aligning ourselves with Him, the source of all true justice/righteousness for man, the source of love, to put it best. That's why faith pleases Him so immensely; it's extremely good for us, to put it mildly.

You still seem to want to change the definition of the word.

Maybe Paul will get through to you.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
“Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.”
— Romans 4:1-9

 

[fhansen]

You still seem to want to change the definition of the word.

Maybe Paul will get through to you.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
“Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.”
— Romans 4:1-9

I'm not sure what you're saying. There's no question that Abraham was justified freely, by faith and not as a result of his works. Faith is not a "work of the law", an attempt to prove one's righteousness, which is what Paul objected to, but rather it's a turning to and dependence upon God first of all. Abraham acted out of that faith rather than out of blind obligation to a set of rules.

And forgiveness of sin is only part of the equation. Again, is a declared or imputed righteousness enough to get us into heaven or must we be righteous/holy, and act accordingly? Again, the basis of true justice/holiness for man is relationship or communion with God, established by faith.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

Or you choose to confuse them. . .

Agreed. . .and Eph 2:8-9 is quite simple, for those who receive and believe it.

You get to show otherwise.

Saying that you need to have works to prove your salvation is confusing because nobody knows how much works is enough. If that's what you're saying that you are the one who is making salvation confusing.

 

[Hammster]

I'm not sure what you're saying. There's no question that Abraham was justified freely, by faith and not as a result of his works. Faith is not a "work of the law", an attempt to prove one's righteousness, which is what Paul objected to, but rather it's a turning to and dependence upon God first of all. Abraham acted out of that faith rather than out of blind obligation to a set of rules.

And forgiveness of sin is only part of the equation. Again, is a declared or imputed righteousness enough to get us into heaven or must we be righteous/holy, and act accordingly? Again, the basis of true justice/holiness for man is relationship or communion with God, established by faith.

There’s nothing mentioned here except being declared righteous. That is all.

 

[fhansen]

There’s nothing mentioned here except being declared righteous. That is all.

Romans, alone, speaks repeatedly about the gift of righteousness for the person who has become a child of God

 

[Hammster]

Romans, alone, speaks repeatedly about the gift of righteousness for the person who has become a child of God

Where?

 

[fhansen]

Where?

I'll start off with Philippians:

"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22"

"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

“The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:20-21

"You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:18-22]

 

[Hammster]

I'll start off with Philippians:

"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22"

"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

“The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:20-21

"You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:18-22]

Yes. Paul was consistent (surprise). We are made righteous through faith.

 

[fhansen]

Yes. Paul was consistent (surprise). We are made righteous through faith.

Yes, made righteous, not merely imputed to be righteous. And our job as believers is now to walk in that righteousness, to cooperate with that grace, unto salvation.

 

[Clare73]

Saying that you need to have works to prove your salvation is confusing because nobody knows how much works is enough. If that's what you're saying that you are the one who is making salvation confusing.

Who made it about quantity?

It's not about quantity, it's about quality--a changed disposition, a change from disobedience to obedience.
"Enough" is when it is a way of life.

It's not complicated. . .

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

Who made it about quantity?

It's not about quantity, it's about quality--a changed disposition, a change from disobedience to obedience.
"Enough" is when it is a way of life.

It's not complicated. . .

You made it about quantity - you are saying that you need a certain quantity of works to be saved. I'm saying that you need zero works to be saved. It's a free gift.

 

[Clare73]

You made it about quantity - you are saying that you need a certain quantity of works to be saved. I'm saying that you need zero works to be saved. It's a free gift.

You don't know the difference between claiming to be a good swimmer and demonstrating to be a good swimmer?

Does demonstration make it true, or does demonstration simply show what is already true?

Is one really a good swimmer if one continually demonstrates one can barely stay afloat in the water?

Is one saved if one continually demonstrates a heart of disobedience to God's word written?

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

You don't know the difference between claiming to be a good swimmer and demonstrating to be a good swimmer?

Does demonstration make it true, or does demonstration simply show what is already true?

Is one really a good swimmer if one continually demonstrates one can barely stay afloat in the water?

Is one saved if one continually demonstrates a heart of disobedience to God's word written?

But you don't have to show it do you? Imagine if someone is the world's best swimmer but he never showed that to anyone. Would he still be truly the world's best swimmer? Yes, of course he would. Similarly, even if a person never showed that they are a saved born-again Christian, obviously they would still be a saved, born-again Christian and nothing would change that.

 

[fhansen]

Who made it about quantity?

It's not about quantity, it's about quality--a changed disposition, a change from disobedience to obedience.
"Enough" is when it is a way of life.

It's not complicated. . .

This is good. Echoing the immortal words of Hammster, "Surprisingly, I agree with this." Some believe, apparently based on their particular take on Sola Fide, that obedience automatically means or is equivalent to "works of the law", which is anathema to them. But obedience under the new covenant is a work of the Spirit, a work of grace. "But", they may contest, "how much obedience, how much righteousness, is enough?" Because under the law only perfect obedience will suffice, right?

But under grace, we let God determine how much suffices, how well we've done with the grace given. Either way we must have some obedience/righteousness to show for ourselves, some change, some progress on that path rather than sitting on our laurels and burying our talents while basking in God's forgiveness. But, hey, Jesus says that God won't forgive us unless we forgive others! Perfection is not demanded while slipping persistently into grave sin/deeds of the flesh would demonstrate an aversion to the things of God, and to His parentage of us.

Anyway, the greater our love, the greater our obedience, the less will be our sins, and the more we reflect the image of God.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, made righteous, not merely imputed to be righteous. And our job as believers is now to walk in that righteousness, to cooperate with that grace, unto salvation.

I don’t want to repost Romans 4. Just go read it again and see that righteousness is credited to us.

 

[fhansen]

I don’t want to repost Romans 4. Just go read it again and see that righteousness is credited to us.

Read all of Romans. The righteousness that comes to Abraham on the basis of faith-not the law-is a real righteousness, freely given, not due to something I do. Then read John and James and the rest of Paul in light of the gospels. That real righteousness remains in us and expresses itself in action, in love, not just words and sentiments, as He remains in us and we in Him, as we remain faithful IOW. Otherwise our so-called faith is worthless, dead.

And this is exactly why Jesus can tell the rich young man that he must obey the commandments to enter life, and can tell us in Matt 5 that the sheep are sheep based on what they do, and that we must be meek and humble and pure of heart to see God and Paul can tell us that we must do good and overcome sin to gain eternal life and that love is much more important than faith, And John can tell us the same in his own words. And James can tell us that our actions speak loudest.

Faith is the entranceway to the life of God, true life and a life that we must live-that's how and why it saves. Don't get stuck on isolated passages or concepts. Faith makes us God's children, who live by the Spirit and we're changed by that connection-as long as we remain in Him. And the more we live that faith the more we change, becoming increasingly like Him as that life of grace leads to more grace yet. Or we can also walk away as with any relationship that is unnourished, uncultivated, unvalued.

 

[Hammster]

Read all of Romans. The righteousness that comes to Abraham on the basis of faith-not the law-is a real righteousness, freely given, not due to something I do. Then read John and James and the rest of Paul in light of the gospels. That real righteousness remains in us and expresses itself in action, in love, not just words and sentiments, as He remains in us and we in Him, as we remain faithful IOW. Otherwise our so-called faith is worthless, dead.

And this is exactly why Jesus can tell the rich young man that he must obey the commandments to enter life, and can tell us in Matt 5 that the sheep are sheep based on what they do, and that we must be meek and humble and pure of heart to see God and Paul can tell us that we must do good and overcome sin to gain eternal life and that love is much more important than faith, And John can tell us the same in his own words. And James can tell us that our actions speak loudest.

Faith is the entranceway to the life of God, true life and a life that we must live-that's how and why it saves. Don't get stuck on isolated passages or concepts. Faith makes us God's children, who live by the Spirit and we're changed by that connection-as long as we remain in Him. And the more we live that faith the more we change, becoming increasingly like Him as that life of grace leads to more grace yet. Or we can also walk away as with any relationship that is unnourished, uncultivated, unvalued.

I’m not stuck on isolated passages. The passage I quoted is very specific that rightness is credited to us by faith. It’s a foreign righteousness. You seem to think that there’s enough good in you that can be added to Christ. That’s just nonsense.