SALVATION

[fhansen]

flat earth was a scientific heresay which they later recanted.

To try to steer this back to the OP, in the west the Catholic church was responsible for preserving whatever learning existed in the world through the dark ages and then, as the faith, and therefore the church, came to be the one solidifying element in a politically fragmented world, it developed and established the lower and upper educational systems, increasingly striving for excellence in the arts and sciences and scholarship in general down through the centuries while setting the stage for later scientific advancements, sometimes by clergy. It learned the hard way, however, that the church's role isn't to make pronouncements on scientific truths first of all, but to preach God's word which isn't a science text per se but rather a revelation of God's nature and will for man and creation, particularly as it pertains to the salvation of man.

Recognizing that man is justified by faith, the questions posed by the OP concern basic teachings on that matter, the answers to which the eastern and western ancient churches essentially agree on.

1) Does justification mean that man is not only forgiven of past sins but also empowered to overcome sin and live a just and righteous life, a life of obedience to God now?

2) Is this obedience necessary in order to gain eternal life?

3) Related to this, does man's will play any role whatsoever in his accepting the grace of justification, in his turning to God in faith and remaining in Him, IOW? Can he say "no" at the beginning, or at any point later on in his walk with God?

 

[fhansen]

Their belief in God is not a saving belief because they do not obey his command to hear his Son.

Yes, maybe they don't even want to know God, whom His Son came to reveal, but either way it means little to say we believe in something or Someone if we really don't know Him. They failed to see and acknowledge God when He came to their door.

 

[Clare73]

I bet they don't consider it a matter of obedience.

Does that alter God's law that it is a matter of obedience if they want to be saved from his condemnation of all men (Ro 5:18)?

And if they likewise don't consider the command not to worship false gods, are they still God's saved?

 

[Clare73]

Yes, maybe they don't even want to know God,

And maybe they think they do, but reject his Son and, therefore, they cannot know him.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

So... what's the point of preaching against sin to the saints if turning from sin is "just something that happens by virtue"? Why did the great people in the Bible preach against sin to churches like the Corinthian church? Were those people in the church not saved then?

 

[Clare73]

So... what's the point of preaching against sin to the saints if turning from sin is "just something that happens by virtue"? Why did the great people in the Bible preach against sin to churches like the Corinthian church? Were those people in the church not saved then?

It happens by engagement of the believer to turn and resist it, in which practice former pagans must be instructed.

 

[fhansen]

And maybe they think they o do, but reject his Son and, therefore, they cannot know him.

Yes, that was pretty much the point

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

It happens by engagement of the believer to turn and resist it, in which practice former pagans must be instructed.

So it does not happen by virtue then, it happens by preaching against sin and rebuking people just like those people in the Corinthian church were rebuked in the Bible.

 

[Clare73]

So it does not happen by virtue then, it happens by preaching against sin and rebuking people just like those people in the Corinthian church were rebuked in the Bible.

I'm not sure what you mean with "by virtue."

One both desists from the practice of sin and engages in obedience to God. . .through prayer, Bible study, and Christian fellowship (church).

 

[Hammster]

In the ancient church teachings and those of the ECFs, salvation is a turning away from the world and sin and turning to God-and is inseparable from becoming righteous and living accordingly: doing good, overcoming sin, obeying the commandments, etc. This righteousness comes by virtue of being reconciled and walking with God, under grace, in a union based on and established by faith. If one were to persistently live in obvious, grave sin then they’re not His children.

Do you think this understanding has changed at all today?

Surprisingly, I agree with this.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

I'm not sure what you mean with "by virtue."

One both desists from the practice of sin and engages in obedience to God. . .through prayer, Bible study, and Christian fellowship (church).

Yeah so those things are not necessary for salvation. It has absolutely nothing to do with your obedience because your obedience is as filthy rags.

 

[Clare73]

Yeah so those things are not necessary for salvation. It has absolutely nothing to do with your obedience because your obedience is as filthy rags.

Obedience is not involved in the actual salvation by faith alone, but it is involved in the life of the saved.

And if there is no obedience following salvation, then there was never any true saving faith to begin with. . .and they are not actually saved. . .as their disobedient life demonstrates.

 

[BibleBeliever1611]

Obedience is not involved in the actual salvation by faith alone, but it is involved in the life of the saved.

And if there is no obedience following salvation, then there was never any true saving faith to begin with. . .and they are not actually saved. . .as their disobedient life demonstrates.

So... if someone doesn't want to do any works, they cannot be saved? Because salvation is by works? You're making things so confusing when the Bible said there is simplicity in the gospel.

 

[fhansen]

Surprisingly, I agree with this.

Have to recheck carefully -might've worded something wrong here.

 

[Clare73]

So... if someone doesn't want to do any works, they cannot be saved? Because salvation is by works?
You're making things so confusing

Or you choose to confuse them. . .

when the Bible said there is simplicity in the gospel.

Agreed. . .and Eph 2:8-9 is quite simple, for those who receive and believe it.

You get to show otherwise.

 

[AbbaLove]

I bet they don't consider it a matter of obedience.

FWIW ... Orthodox Jews don't practice betting, neither do fhansen, Clare73 or i and neither should you.

 

[AbbaLove]

1) Does justification mean that man is not only forgiven of past sins but also empowered to overcome sin and live a just and righteous life, a life of obedience to God now?

There are two times in John's Gospel when Jesus tells a sinner to Stop Sinning. One was' after Jesus healed the invalid by the Pool of Bethesda ... "Sin no more lest a worse thing come upon you." (John 5:14) and the other was after He rescued the adulterous woman from getting stoned to death ... "go and sin no more" (John 8:11). The Holy Spirit as Counselor is our Helper to defeat the enemy.

2) Is this obedience necessary in order to gain eternal life?

Depends on one's understanding of Grace vs Hyper-Grace. Free grace theology is distinguished from Hyper-Grace theology taught by a few Charismatic teachers by arguing that a believer may experience temporal judgement for sin. Free Grace Theology is essentially a view of soleriology from more traditional Baptist roots.

Once born again as a new creation in Christ (John 3:5 and Titus 3:5) is as much and more with the Help of the Holy Spirit as it is our own spiritual obedience..

3) Related to this, does man's will play any role whatsoever in his accepting the grace of justification, in his turning to God in faith and remaining in Him, IOW?

Justification follows sanctification. One's justification is only known for sure by God as long as we are on earth. Yet with spiritual eyes and ears to hear God may let us know before arriving at our eternal home in Heaven.

In 1 Corinthians 6:11, Paul reminds the Corinthian Believers that they "were sanctified." In this verse Paul again presents sanctification as preceding justification by faith..Wonder-Working Faith is a Gift from God just as is His Salvation.

Can he say "no" at the beginning, or at any point later on in his walk with God?

It's not so much saying "No" as it is being side-tracked by the world (deceived by the enemy).
The Parable of the Sower - Matthew 13:3-23 ... Parable of the Net - Matthew 13:47-52
12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

52 He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the law who has become a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”

 

[fhansen]

There are two times in John's Gospel when Jesus tells a sinner to Stop Sinning. One was' after Jesus healed the invalid by the Pool of Bethesda ... "Sin no more lest a worse thing come upon you." (John 5:14) and the other was after He rescued the adulterous woman from getting stoned to death ... "go and sin no more" (John 8:11). The Holy Spirit as Counselor is our Helper to defeat the enemy.

Once born again as a new creation in Christ (John 3:5 and Titus 3:5) is as much and more with the Help of the Holy Spirit as it is our own spiritual obedience..

Yes, the Holy Spirit is actually the Source of our obedience, the only authentic source, and yet a source whom we may yet ignore.

It's not so much saying "No" as it is being side-tracked by the world (deceived by the enemy).

Yes, this is true, but a believer can be sidetracked into hell. A professed faith means little to nothing if not accompanied by a walked faith.

 

[Hammster]

1) Does justification mean that man is not only forgiven of past sins but also empowered to overcome sin and live a just and righteous life, a life of obedience to God now?

Justification has to do with our standing before God. It’s an accounting term. It means that Christ’s righteousness has been credited to our account. It doesn’t empower us to do anything.

 

[fhansen]

Justification has to do with our standing before God. It’s an accounting term. It means that Christ’s righteousness has been credited to our account. It doesn’t empower us to do anything.

At justification we are gifted with grace, the Holy Spirit, the life of God in us. We become His adopted children, His people, Jer 31:33, no longer ungodly. And with Him we can do much, while apart from Him we can do nothing-that relationship, itself, being the essence of justice for man and the central point of the new covenant. He wants more for us than to become merely forgiven sinners. He created us for more than that.