Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Vanellus]

Oh yeah, an opinion piece really carries a lot of weight.

The article includes direct quotes from Israeli political and military leaders. That is not "opinion".
(Hmm don't you express your own opinions here?)

 

[ralliann]

When the Romans took over, it became part of the Empire,

And? When the took it over it became "roman" land

but individual Jewish families were not displaced. The Romans needed them to keep paying their taxes.

The land of Judea, was given to LIVE in that "roman" province. The land of the nation was not given Jew's. Judea, was only a part of the land mass of the nation of Israel. Judah, was only one tribe out of 12. Each tribe had their own borders, which altogther made one nation. Rome allowed the land of one tribe, to live there as Jew's

.
Again, you're stubbornly keeping the focus on the country, rather than the individual people.

No I am not. Rome incorporated many peoples into it's DOMINION. There may have been provinces, and various people groups they allowed their particu;lar Religions to be legal etc. The Jew's in the land of Judea, were likewise allowed to practice their religion, however they could not carry out a death sentence unless permitted by Rome. In other words the land was ROMAN land.

No, I'm saying that there are plots of land in Israel and the Occupied Territories that belong to the Palestinian families that have been displaced from their land.

Well, it is what Palestinians are indeed saying. From the river to the sea, means just that. What I am saying is.....Your views, my views, anybody's view on this are not what this is about. There were wars fought because of PALESTINIAN ARAB VIEWS. What they want is the entire land back. Other Arab nations have backed off, except the "Palestinian people". Not incorporated/ patriated into the other Arab area's..,

And international law (which has indeed changed in the modern era away from "to the victor go the spoils", not just for Palestine, but for all peoples) recognizes their right to their property.

Oh, then give the Ukraine back to Russia. That is not modern recognition of land. That only works as long as each people accepts Modern international law. Palestinian Arabs dont'. They want Isreal to no longer exist. And therefore war has occurred. And why "israel's right to defend itself" has been the mantra.
What is not normal, is to continue to expect Israel to pretend Palestinians can live peacefully with them. That is not normal. they have openly said, they will do it again and again and again. Let a nation be free in the land they have, the very same way every other nation has. Treat Israel like Ukraine and Russia. Refuse to call ukraine Russian land, and allow them to win their freedom. There is no difference here. and to point out the difference is not stubborn. And to pretend there is not a difference is stubborn .

 

[essentialsaltes]

And? When the took it over it became "roman" land

RIght, whatever. There were Jewish families who were suddenly living in their homes in what was now the Roman empire.

Just like we could have (more) Palestinian families living in their homes in what is now the nation of Israel.

Oh, then give the Ukraine back to Russia.

You could give it back to the Soviet Union, but there isn't one anymore. It fell apart, and Ukraine became independent.

That only works as long as each people accepts Modern international law. Palestinian Arabs dont'.

Palestine is a member of the International Criminal Court.

They want Isreal to no longer exist.

No, that's Hamas.

And why "israel's right to defend itself" has been the mantra.

Nobody is denying that; however, once again, it must defend itself within the bounds of international law. It appears that it isn't.

 

[ralliann]

RIght, whatever. There were Jewish families who were suddenly living in their homes in what was now the Roman empire.

Just like we could have (more) Palestinian families living in their homes in what is now the nation of Israel.

No, you cannot. These are arabs that do not want to live there. They want it to their land, palestine That is over.

You could give it back to the Soviet Union, but there isn't one anymore. It fell apart, and Ukraine became independent.

There is no difference. The ottomans had the land, and they divided it with the british. Same now palestinains like Russia Want that land back. It was ottoman land.

Palestine is a member of the International Criminal Court.

So what? International law with regard to land is no different than one nation against another nation. It is still the concept of peace through strength. So the victor in this case simply becomes who has the most powerful allies on their side. It is still the victor wins.

No, that's Hamas.

No, that is Palestinain refugees. And the generations that come after them as well. They will not accept being anything other than a refugee until all the land of Israel is theirs.

Nobody is denying that; however, once again, it must defend itself within the bounds of international law. It appears that it isn't.

When Palestinians do that, then so might Israel. But they wont. So international law has no say in the matter.

 

[essentialsaltes]

No, you cannot. These are arabs that do not want to live there.

Arabs make up 20% of the Israeli population. They live there.

These refugees absolutely want to go back and live in the houses they've been dispossessed from.

So what? International law with regard to land is no different than one nation against another nation. It is still the concept of peace through strength. So the victor in this case simply becomes who has the most powerful allies on their side. It is still the victor wins.

Very funny. First you accuse Palestinians of being unable to accept international law. And when you're shown you're wrong, you immediately attack the idea of international law.

Who is it really who can't accept international law? Certainly the Israelis have flouted international law for decades.

 

[ralliann]

Arabs make up 20% of the Israeli population. They live there.

These refugees absolutely want to go back and live in the houses they've been dispossessed from.

And? They also want the land back. Unrealistic expectation. As for Arabs living in Israel, yes they can and are

Arabs make up 20% of the Israeli population. They live there.

These refugees absolutely want to go back and live in the houses they've been dispossessed from.


Very funny. First you accuse Palestinians of being unable to accept international law. And when you're shown you're wrong, you immediately attack the idea of international law.

Who is it really who can't accept international law? Certainly the Israelis have flouted international law for decades.

they are peaceful ones.

Very funny. First you accuse Palestinians of being unable to accept international law. And when you're shown you're wrong, you immediately attack the idea of international law.

How did you show me I was wrong? Palestinian Arabs do not want to live in Israel. They want Their homes to be the land of Palestine. Two different things

Who is it really who can't accept international law? Certainly the Israelis have flouted international law for decades.

Not the way I see it. It was the Arabs that tried to cut off shipping to Israel. The same issue is present today. It is why America has been involved with military exchange. So began the war.
Now war again, due to a massacre. Let them take care of the threat. Just like we support the Ukraine.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Just like we support the Ukraine.

One easy way to support Ukraine is to call it Ukraine, not 'the' Ukraine.

Another way is to call for Russia to remove itself from the territories of Ukraine that it is illegally occupying.

 

[ralliann]

One easy way to support Ukraine is to call it Ukraine, not 'the' Ukraine.

Yes, Ukraine is like Israel......

Another way is to call for Russia to remove itself from the territories of Ukraine that it is illegally occupying.

Same for Palestinan Arabs. They are taking the same position Russia, is to the Ukraine. Russia considers Ukraine belonging to Russia, they want it back. Same with Palestinians. It does not matter the land was ottoman land, And british land divided to Jews and Arabs of Palestine. They say it was all their land anyway, just like Russia does despite ussr, before.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Yes, Ukraine is like Israel......

Same for Palestinan Arabs. They are taking the same position Russia, is to the Ukraine

No, Israel is the one who is illegally occupying territory.

 

[ralliann]

No, Israel is the one who is illegally occupying territory.

No, not any more than Palestinians. The land was under the ottomans and the british. Period
They split the land between (it was theirs to split) To both groups. Both were living in Palestine. How was it anymore Palestinian land any more than Israel lands. Both were Given the land by those whom controlled that land.

 

[essentialsaltes]

No, not any more than paelstinians.

Yes.

Israeli-occupied territories​

Israel has occupied the Palestinian territories and the Golan Heights since the Six-Day War of 1967. It previously occupied the Sinai Peninsula and southern Lebanon as well.

Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem in 1980 (see Jerusalem Law) has not been recognized by any other country,
United Nations Security Council Resolution 478 declared the annexation of East Jerusalem "null and void" and required that it be rescinded. United Nations Security Council Resolution 497 also declared the annexation of the Golan "null and void".
Multiple United Nations General Assembly resolutions have described the continuing occupation of Palestine as illegal.

 

[ralliann]

Yes.

Israeli-occupied territories​

Israel has occupied the Palestinian territories and the Golan Heights since the Six-Day War of 1967.

Israel took the land in war. Just like everyone else before them did. It became a part of Israel's land.
They were not occupiers ......Anymore than anyone else before them, including Palestinian arabs were occupiers of Palestinian land.

It previously occupied the Sinai Peninsula and southern Lebanon as well.

Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem in 1980 (see Jerusalem Law) has not been recognized by any other country,

So what? Both were recognized by the countries whose land it was, when they gave each land. The united nations did not own the land.

United Nations Security Council Resolution 478 declared the annexation of East Jerusalem "null and void" and required that it be rescinded. United Nations Security Council Resolution 497 also declared the annexation of the Golan "null and void".
Multiple United Nations General Assembly resolutions have described the continuing occupation of Palestine as illegal.

So what? It was not the united nations land. The decision was not up to them. Those whose land it was chose to divide it between the Arabs and Jew's. No other nation had the land to have a say in it.
What the united nations wants is the power and right to decide who should win a war? Yes, they do. That is why they are demanding that Israel stop. Because they don't want them to win.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Israel took the land in war.

Right, just like Russia took Ukrainian land in war. We support Ukraine, and do not accept that that land has become a part of Russia.

There have been a range of international reactions to the annexation. In March 2014, the UN General Assembly passed a non-binding resolution 100 in favour, 11 against and 58 abstentions in the 193-nation assembly that declared Crimea's Moscow-backed referendum invalid.

Israel is obviously Russia in the analogy you brought up.

Just like everyone else before them did. It became a part of Israel's land.

It did not become a part of Israel's land. Not even Israel considers the Occupied Territories to be part of Israel proper.

In its June 2005 ruling upholding the constitutionality of the Gaza disengagement, the [Israeli Supreme] Court determined that "Judea and Samaria" [West Bank] and the Gaza area are lands seized during warfare, and are not part of Israel:

Those whose land it was chose to divide it between the Arabs and Jew's.

No such division ever took place.

 

[Valletta]

Why do you think this means
"Israel has acted in a more more compassionate manner than have the citizens of Gaza"
Are you arguing that it's compassionate to kill large numbers of people?

It is compassionate to try and spare lives, I gave an example. The wife comes out and in a trick pretends to surrender, the husband cowers behind the wife with a weapon, and Israeli soldiers spare the life of the wife. This would not happen in the reverse. Jihadists wish to kill every Jew. That means every, man, woman, and child. And it was no way compassionate to torture and murder a large number of innocents, including babies--over a thousand.

 

[civilwarbuff]

The article includes direct quotes from Israeli political and military leaders. That is not "opinion".

Read the info at the top of the page under the caption.

 

[Desk trauma]

It is compassionate to try and spare lives, I gave an example. The wife comes out and in a trick pretends to surrender, the husband cowers behind the wife with a weapon, and Israeli soldiers spare the life of the wife. This would not happen in the reverse. Jihadists wish to kill every Jew. That means every, man, woman, and child. And it was no way compassionate to torture and murder a large number of innocents, including babies--over a thousand.

Lowest bar for compassion ever.

 

[Valletta]

Lowest bar for compassion ever.

And the Gazans rarely make the bar.

 

[ralliann]

Right, just like Russia took Ukrainian land in war.

No, "Ukraine was not attacking Russia existence to take the land of Russia as their own.

We support Ukraine, and do not accept that that land has become a part of Russia.

Right, I support Israel because Palestinians want to exterminate Israel and take Israel's land as their own.

There have been a range of international reactions to the annexation. In March 2014, the UN General Assembly passed a non-binding resolution 100 in favour, 11 against and 58 abstentions in the 193-nation assembly that declared Crimea's Moscow-backed referendum invalid.

Israel is obviously Russia in the analogy you brought up.

No....Jews and Arabs living in Palestine were all palestinian. They were living in the lands of
The ottomans, an brits. They allowed the both to live there.
Then these two nations Gave Arabs land, and Jew's land. It was never Arab Palestinian land

It did not become a part of Israel's land. Not even Israel considers the Occupied Territories to be part of Israel proper.

In its June 2005 ruling upholding the constitutionality of the Gaza disengagement, the [Israeli Supreme] Court determined that "Judea and Samaria" [West Bank] and the Gaza area are lands seized during warfare, and are not part of Israel:


No such division ever took place.

Wars have taken place because they are bent on all the land is theirs. And it was not. It was not theirs until it was given to them, Just like land was given to Israel as their own as well. That is the bottom line.
We may disagree over who was Justified in war But the land given Israel was never Palestinian land. both were allowed to live in the land belonging to others. The land of Palestine. They both were dwellers in that land by consent/permission of those who controlled that land and were both called Palestinian. It was not an ethnic name for any of them....but rather a landmass.

 

[weekEd]

ok so how many articles...am I GOING TO NOT POST...
peace is coming...in a way...

Earth Tilted 31.5 Inches in Less Than 20 Years. Here’s What That Really Means for Us

Human groundwater pumping is primarily to blame for the jaunty new tilt, but don’t freak out ... yet.

www.popularmechanics.com

 

[essentialsaltes]

No, "Ukraine was not attacking Russia existence to take the land of Russia as their own.

Must I once again remind everyone that Israel started the attacking in the 1967 war?

Right, I support Israel because Palestinians want to exterminate Israel and take Israel's land as their own.

Even supposing that is what (all) Palestinians want (which is a malicious lie), that does not absolve Israel from attacking its neighbors and occupying their territory.

Then these two nations Gave Arabs land,

You're just out to lunch. The Ottomans didn't give anybody any land. The Ottoman Empire came to an end 25 years before the formation of Israel.
The British didn't give anybody any land. They just left.