Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Philip_B]

You're just out to lunch. The Ottomans didn't give anybody any land. The Ottoman Empire came to an end 25 years before the formation of Israel.
The British didn't give anybody any land. They just left.

The Ottomans, like everyone else before and after were there to help ... themselves!? The English interest in the Mandated Territory was on the one hand to protect the trade through Suez, especially India - the Jewel of the Empire, and on the other hand to work hand in glove with the Balfour Declaration to provide a homeland for Jewish People (which may simply have been to provide them a desirable option to living in England). The British exit at the end of the mandate was to leave the matter in the hands of the UN provided for the Sovereign State of Israel. Effectively there was no reason for the British to stay, and they hoped to retain some influence through the King of Jordan.

Balfour's cabinet notes appear to suggest that they had no true intention of honouring any undertaking to the Palestinians, they intended to provide a homeland for the Jews without regard to the Palestinians.

this tradition was carried into UN Security Council Resolution 242, where there is zero mention of Palestinians - they simply were not considered.

Ultimately the mess has been caused as much by the West as it has been by the Middle Eastern Parties to the dispute. The challenge for the moment is to work out how to resolve it. Ignoring the existence, needs and humanity of the Palestinian people has not been the answer to date, and I very much doubt it will be in the future either.

 

[Valletta]

Must I once again remind everyone that Israel started the attacking in the 1967 war?

This is 2024. Let me remind you, Israel told Egypt that closing the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping would be an act of war. Egypt went ahead and blocked the straits, formed an alliance with Jordan, massed troops on the border and Iraq provided troops as well. Israel attacked before the Muslim coalition attacked and the war was over in six days. The Muslims simply would not leave the Jews alone to live in peace.

 

[ralliann]

This is 2024. Let me remind you, Israel told Egypt that closing the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping would be an act of war. Egypt went ahead and blocked the straits, formed an alliance with Jordan, massed troops on the border and Iraq provided troops as well. Israel attacked before the Muslim coalition attacked and the war was over in six days. The Muslims simply would not leave the Jews alone to live in peace.

Yes Israel did tell Egypt it was an act of war, no different than all the complaints against Israel towards Palestinians give them cause against Israel. The only difference is Hamas, has caused alot of problems for that people, and it gets blamed on Israel. Israel may not have always done right, but The Palestinians won't live in peace with Israel.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Good to know that a blockade justifies a military attack.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Israel faces crisis of its own making as chaos and hunger engulf Gaza​

[A]fter a recent aid convoy disaster in Gaza City, and amid reports of Palestinian children dying of malnutrition, Netanyahu faces an international reckoning — under growing pressure from the United States to stave off a famine and restore order to the ravaged enclave.

When asked about the hunger crisis in northern Gaza, Netanyahu replied: “That’s not the information we have. And we monitor it closely. More importantly, it’s not our policy. Our policies are to put in as much humanitarian aid as we could.”

An average of 500 trucks a day crossed into Gaza before the war; in five months of conflict, Israeli restrictions have kept the daily average well below the 200 that Israel had promised to facilitate.

An Israeli strike on a food distribution site in Rafah on Wednesday killed one [UNRWA] employee and injured 22 others. Israel said it was targeting a Hamas commander responsible for diverting aid to the group; Hamas identified the man as the deputy head of police in the area.

With UNRWA effectively sidelined, the Israeli government is stalling, and searching for alternatives, as aid groups and allies warn that time is running out. Many of the 300,000 people remaining in the north skip at least one meal a day and are resorting to eating animal feed and scavenging for wild plants. At least 27 people, mostly children, have died of malnutrition or dehydration in recent weeks, according to the Gaza Health Ministry.

“If we do not exponentially increase the size of aid going into the northern areas, famine is imminent,” Cindy McCain, head of the U.N. World Food Program, said in a statement Monday.

“This [is] chaos of Israel’s own making,” said one of the [Biden] administration officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive conversations. “Ultimately, Israel is responsible for the mass hunger and lack of aid going in.”

 

[Valletta]

Good to know that a blockade justifies a military attack

Surrounded by Muslim countries and military troops, they did not wait for their people to starve or be attacked.

 

[Valletta]

Israel faces crisis of its own making as chaos and hunger engulf Gaza​

[A]fter a recent aid convoy disaster in Gaza City, and amid reports of Palestinian children dying of malnutrition, Netanyahu faces an international reckoning — under growing pressure from the United States to stave off a famine and restore order to the ravaged enclave.

When asked about the hunger crisis in northern Gaza, Netanyahu replied: “That’s not the information we have. And we monitor it closely. More importantly, it’s not our policy. Our policies are to put in as much humanitarian aid as we could.”

An average of 500 trucks a day crossed into Gaza before the war; in five months of conflict, Israeli restrictions have kept the daily average well below the 200 that Israel had promised to facilitate.

An Israeli strike on a food distribution site in Rafah on Wednesday killed one [UNRWA] employee and injured 22 others. Israel said it was targeting a Hamas commander responsible for diverting aid to the group; Hamas identified the man as the deputy head of police in the area.

With UNRWA effectively sidelined, the Israeli government is stalling, and searching for alternatives, as aid groups and allies warn that time is running out. Many of the 300,000 people remaining in the north skip at least one meal a day and are resorting to eating animal feed and scavenging for wild plants. At least 27 people, mostly children, have died of malnutrition or dehydration in recent weeks, according to the Gaza Health Ministry.

“If we do not exponentially increase the size of aid going into the northern areas, famine is imminent,” Cindy McCain, head of the U.N. World Food Program, said in a statement Monday.

“This [is] chaos of Israel’s own making,” said one of the [Biden] administration officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive conversations. “Ultimately, Israel is responsible for the mass hunger and lack of aid going in.”

Yes, there is plenty of Hamas propaganda.

 

[essentialsaltes]

they did not wait for their people to starve.

Neither did Hamas. But we can criticize both Hamas and Israel for how they conduct their war.

 

[DaisyDay]

Who is causing this?

Israel with the aid of the USA.

There are their KINSMAN all around them. Did you know the UN refugee relief center present in Palestine allows Palestinians to refuse to repatriate? They are allowed to only accept patriation to the land of Israel. In other words they refuse to go any where else in the Arab world, they only want the Land that belongs to Israel, ( any and all of it). Did you know, that these continue in refugee status by choice, and receive all the aid of that status. Then, when they have Children, they also are born in refugee status. Leaving for the untenable situation that the UN refugee agency serving them, never grows smaller until repatriation is complete, rather it multiplies refugees, since they refuse repatriation, then their children, are also in refugee status, and this can and does go on breeding more and more refugees. This is sick. These agencies are their to help refugees to repatriate, and settle themselves, and become stable in their repatriated country.

@essentialsaltes already went over the meaning of repatriate with the emphasis on the "re" prefix.

They could start with the UNrelief agency for refugees. All we ever heard about them is some of their members participated in the massacre of Jew's. they are also growing permanent refugees, until they get the land (all of it) of Israel back.

Just curious: you refer to the attack by Hamas back in October as a "massacre" after 1,200 people were murdered. Israel has retaliated by killing more than 30,000 people mostly women and children, but that you do not call a massacre.

 

[essentialsaltes]

At least 29 killed in Israeli attacks as they waited for aid, Gaza health ministry says​

In a statement, Israel's military denied attacking aid centres, describing the reports as "false".

The first incident on Thursday saw eight people killed in an airstrike on an aid distribution centre in the Nuseirat camp, in the central Gaza Strip, they said.

Later, at least 21 people were killed and more than 150 wounded by Israeli gunfire at a crowd waiting for aid at a roundabout, the ministry said.

"As the IDF [Israeli Defence Forces] assesses the incident with the thoroughness that it deserves, we urge the media to do the same and only rely on credible information," the statement said.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Must I once again remind everyone that Israel started the attacking in the 1967 war?

It wasn't quite that simple......

Six-Day War

The Six-Day War was a brief but bloody conflict fought in June 1967 between Israel and the Arab states of Egypt, Syria and Jordan. The brief war ended with a U.N.-brokered ceasefire, but it significantly altered the map of the Mideast and gave rise to lingering geopolitical friction.

www.history.com

Would we have faulted USSR if they had preemptively attacked Germany in June 1941 given what we know now?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Good to know that a blockade justifies a military attack.

Dunno, we almost came to a nuclear conflict with Russia in 1962 by blockading Cuba so somebody thinks it is a good reason. Besides, blockading any country's access to trade has been an acceptable reason for war for centuries.

 

[civilwarbuff]

At least 29 killed in Israeli attacks as they waited for aid, Gaza health ministry says​

In a statement, Israel's military denied attacking aid centres, describing the reports as "false".

The first incident on Thursday saw eight people killed in an airstrike on an aid distribution centre in the Nuseirat camp, in the central Gaza Strip, they said.

Later, at least 21 people were killed and more than 150 wounded by Israeli gunfire at a crowd waiting for aid at a roundabout, the ministry said.

"As the IDF [Israeli Defence Forces] assesses the incident with the thoroughness that it deserves, we urge the media to do the same and only rely on credible information," the statement said.

Read: .....Hamas Health Ministry says. Puts a whole new spin on it. And who was it that was so indignant about my claim of Hamas propagandists thriving on this thread?

 

[Vanellus]

Read the info at the top of the page under the caption.

er the fact that article was published in Jan 2024 doesn't invalidate the quotes cited - they were still said.

 

[essentialsaltes]

And who was it that was so indignant about my claim of Hamas propagandists thriving on this thread?

Your actual words were that people here accepted the Hamas terror attack as reasonable.

countenance what Hamas (and associated terrorist groups) was doing to their friends, colleagues, neighbours on October 7th as reasonable and acceptable.

 

[Vanellus]

It is compassionate to try and spare lives, I gave an example. The wife comes out and in a trick pretends to surrender, the husband cowers behind the wife with a weapon, and Israeli soldiers spare the life of the wife. This would not happen in the reverse. Jihadists wish to kill every Jew. That means every, man, woman, and child. And it was no way compassionate to torture and murder a large number of innocents, including babies--over a thousand.

Hmm I don't know how valid that example is but that is beside the point. What is one example against over 30,000 people killed: mostly non combatants.. As to the "wish to kill every Jew" are you referring the original Hamas charter? And who do you mean by "Jihadists" - every one who lives in Gaza?

I agree that the killing of Oct 7 was certainly not compassionate but why do you have a problem with saying that killing over 30,000 people in Gaza (including many babies) is not compassionate?

The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict

“Before the 20th century, most Jews in Palestine belonged to old Yishuv, or community, that had settled more for religious than for political reasons. There was little if any conflict between them and the Arab population. Tensions began after the first Zionist settlers arrived in the 1880’s...when [they] purchased land from absentee Arab owners, leading to dispossession of the peasants who had cultivated it.” Don Peretz, “The Arab-Israeli Dispute.

 

[civilwarbuff]

er the fact that article was published in Jan 2024 doesn't invalidate the quotes cited - they were still said.

It is still an OPINION piece....

 

[civilwarbuff]

Your actual words were that people here accepted the Hamas terror attack as reasonable.

And they do.....they throw the usual sop out about 'how terrible what Hamas did' generally followed by some form of 'but Israel is worse'......accompanied by a discourse on how terrible the Israeli's and IDF are acting toward the Gazans. But never a word about how the Gazans are complicit in the deaths and woundings of their own people because of their stubborn refusal to take a stand against Hamas.

Got a question for you: What has Hamas done to benefit the Gazan people since they forcibly took power? Can you give us a short list.....say 5 things they have done to better the lives of the people of Gaza. I don't think anyone here has even attempted to do that so you would be the first. Willing to give it a shot?

 

[essentialsaltes]

And they do.....they throw the usual sop out about 'how terrible what Hamas did'

Something considered terrible is not being accepted as reasonable. So your characterization fails completely at the get-go.

But never a word about how the Gazans are complicit in the deaths and woundings of their own people because of their stubborn refusal to take a stand against Hamas.

Even if that characterization were valid, it has nothing to do with the events of Oct. 7th, per your original statement.

What has Hamas done to benefit the Gazan people since they forcibly took power?

I dunno, you'd have to ask an actual apologist for Hamas. I think they're a murderous terrorist organization, and their 'governance' of Gaza has not been crowned with any particular successes.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Something considered terrible is not being accepted as reasonable. So your characterization fails completely at the get-go.

If you would take the time to go back and re-read the exchange you would see I was using irony to parody a poster. Most of us would recognize that; as a matter of fact since you were the only one to comment negatively on the post it would appear you were the only one who did not 'get it'.