Israel-Hamas Thread II

[civilwarbuff]

Even if that characterization were valid, it has nothing to do with the events of Oct. 7th, per your original statement.

see previous post.....

 

[civilwarbuff]

I dunno, you'd have to ask an actual apologist for Hamas. I think they're a murderous terrorist organization, and their 'governance' of Gaza has not been crowned with any particular successes.

Wow, the first from the left side of the fence to admit the facts. I applaud you.

 

[essentialsaltes]

it would appear you were the only one who did not 'get it'.

I certainly got it. You were attempting to demonstrate that the criticism being levelled against you could be mirrored and could equally well be levelled against 'the other side'. But it doesn't work because it doesn't fit.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Wow, the first from the left side of the fence to admit the facts.

You just haven't been listening.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I certainly got it. You were attempting to demonstrate that the criticism being levelled against you could be mirrored and could equally well be levelled against 'the other side'. But it doesn't work because it doesn't fit.

It works quite well, thank you.

 

[civilwarbuff]

You just haven't been listening.

Oh, I 'listen' quite closely. I just don't take propagandists seriously regardless of which side of the fence they try to appear on.

 

[essentialsaltes]

It works quite well, thank you.

No, because no one here has accepted the Oct 7 terrorist attack as reasonable.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Oh, I 'listen' quite closely. I just don't take propagandists seriously regardless of which side of the fence they try to appear on.

So are you saying I was disingenuous in post #47 (some 100+ pages ago), when I said:

Nobody's protecting Hamas or shedding tears over dead terrorists.

 

[Valletta]

When asked at a House Armed Services Committee hearing last week how many Palestinian women and children have been killed since Oct. 7, Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin said the number was “over 25,000.” The Pentagon quickly clarified that the secretary “was citing an estimate from the Hamas-controlled Health Ministry.” President Biden himself had earlier cited this figure, asserting that “too many, too many of the over 27,000 Palestinians killed in this conflict have been innocent civilians and children, including thousands of children.” The White House also explained that the president “was referring to publicly available data about the total number of casualties.”
Here’s the problem with this data: The numbers are not real. That much is obvious to anyone who understands how naturally occurring numbers work. The casualties are not overwhelmingly women and children, and the majority may be Hamas fighters.

How the Gaza Ministry of Health Fakes Casualty Numbers

The evidence is in their own poorly fabricated figures

www.tabletmag.com

 

[JosephZ]

The numbers are not real.

The United Nations and other international institutions and experts, as well as Palestinian authorities in the West Bank — rivals of Hamas — say the Gaza ministry has long made a good-faith effort to account for the dead under the most difficult conditions.

“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.”

In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies.

What is Gaza's Ministry of Health and how does it calculate the war's death toll?

The Gaza-based Ministry of Health — an agency in the Hamas-controlled government — continues to tally casualty numbers.

apnews.com

Amidst the ongoing conflict in Gaza, some political parties have indicated scepticism about the reporting of fatalities by the Gaza Ministry of Health (MoH). The Gaza MoH has historically reported accurate mortality data, with discrepancies between MoH reporting and independent United Nations analyses ranging from 1·5% to 3·8% in previous conflicts. A comparison between the Gaza MoH and Israeli Foreign Ministry mortality figures for the 2014 war yielded an 8·0% discrepancy. Public scepticism of the current reports by the Gaza MoH might undermine the efforts to reduce civilian harm and provide life-saving assistance.

Mortality reporting is difficult to conduct in ongoing conflicts. Initial news reports might be imprecise, and subsequent verified reports might undercount deaths that are not recorded by hospitals or morgues, such as persons buried under rubble. However, difficulties obtaining accurate mortality figures should not be interpreted as intentionally misreported data.

The death reporting system currently being used by the Palestinian MoH was assessed in 2021, 2 years before the current war, and was found to under-report mortality by 13%. Subsequently, steps were taken to improve its completeness. Our use of this source as the 2021 counterfactual rate might have underestimated actual mortality at the time. Nevertheless, it is plausible that the current Palestinian MoH source also under-reports mortality because of the direct effect of the war on data capture and reporting, for example by omitting people whose bodies could not be recovered or brought to morgues (approximately 1000 by one account as reported to the Palestinian MoH by families and community), and because of a time lag between death and recording, especially on the day of the report's release.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02640-5/fulltext

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext

 

[essentialsaltes]

Surgical building on fire and casualties reported after Israeli incursion on Gaza’s Al-Shifa Hospital​

From CNN staff

A surgical building is on fire in northern Gaza's Al-Shifa Medical Complex, according to a doctor at the scene, after the Israel Defense Forces said early on Monday that it was carrying out a military operation in the area of the hospital.

The IDF said that the operation was based on intelligence that the hospital was being used by “senior Hamas terrorists to conduct and promote terrorist activity.”

CNN cannot independently verify this claim.

 

[civilwarbuff]

No, because no one here has accepted the Oct 7 terrorist attack as reasonable.

Like I pointed out earlier, you just didn't get it and obviously still don't.

 

[civilwarbuff]

So are you saying I was disingenuous in post #47 (some 100+ pages ago), when I said:

The Gazans ARE protecting them....

 

[DaisyDay]

That much is obvious to anyone who understands how naturally occurring numbers work.

How do naturally occurring numbers work?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Surgical building on fire and casualties reported after Israeli incursion on Gaza’s Al-Shifa Hospital​

From CNN staff

A surgical building is on fire in northern Gaza's Al-Shifa Medical Complex, according to a doctor at the scene, after the Israel Defense Forces said early on Monday that it was carrying out a military operation in the area of the hospital.

The IDF said that the operation was based on intelligence that the hospital was being used by “senior Hamas terrorists to conduct and promote terrorist activity.”

CNN cannot independently verify this claim.

I just love your selective choice of stories....
Why not post this one instead?

MSN

 

[essentialsaltes]

I just love your selective choice of stories....
Why not post this one instead?

Because that was posted 36 minutes ago.

(And I had to give the Obama time machine back to Joe.)

 

[Vanellus]

 

[civilwarbuff]

Because that was posted 36 minutes ago.

(And I had to give the Obama time machine back to Joe.)

Well, now you have something new to discuss instead of the same old Hamas propaganda.....which is getting rather repetitive......

 

[essentialsaltes]

Well, now you have something new to discuss instead of the same old Hamas propaganda.....which is getting rather repetitive......

But the role of Faiq Mabhouh, the only named target, was shrouded in conflicting claims.

The IDF said in a statement that the raid had “eliminated” Faiq Mabhouh, a senior official within Hamas’s internal security division who was responsible for coordinating the group’s militant activities across the Gaza Strip. The Hamas-run Al-Aqsa TV network said that Mabhouh was a director of police operations who coordinated and protected aid deliveries. The Washington Post could not independently confirm his role.

He was the brother of former Hamas military commander Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, who was assassinated in Dubai in 2010, according to Michael Milshtein, a former head of the Palestinian division of Israeli military intelligence. Unlike his brother, Mabhouh had been an important figure in upholding law and order in the enclave, Milshtein said, and his death would have a limited impact on the “military capabilities of Hamas.”

In going after Mabhouh, Israel appeared to continue a pattern of attacks on members of Gaza’s police force. Civil servants under Hamas’s prewar government, police officers played a key role guarding international aid convoys until last month, when Israel began targeting them.

The subsequent withdrawal of police from the aid delivery process, according to humanitarian groups and U.S. officials, left convoys open to looting by desperate civilians and criminal gangs, and made it nearly impossible to get assistance to starving families in the north.
Israel asserts that all Hamas members are legitimate military targets.

 

[Philip_B]

The subsequent withdrawal of police from the aid delivery process, according to humanitarian groups and U.S. officials, left convoys open to looting by desperate civilians and criminal gangs, and made it nearly impossible to get assistance to starving families in the north.
Israel asserts that all Hamas members are legitimate military targets.

This of course has the inbuilt problem of being essentially difficult to establish. What makes a Palestinian a member of Hamas? Do they have a paid-up subscription roll, and do members carry membership cards? That being said there is also a distinction between Hamas as a political organisation and the elected government of the Palestinian people and Hamas as a covert military operation engaged in terrorism.

If you are a Palestinian, and you were asked if would you prefer Hamas or the IDF you may well choose Hamas, as the IDF has been bombing your homes, killing your friends and family and disenfranchising you from the land of your forbears. Israel cannot expect support from Palestinians as they have made their lives untenable.

Yet even despite this Israel acknowledges there has been a high civilian death toll, and in all likelihood, it is even higher than they acknowledge.

Israel Not Complying with World Court Order in Genocide Case

One question is whether Israel should face any consequences for Ignoring the International Court of Justice.