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Revelation 12:5-11 proves the Amil paradigm

oikonomia

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Paul's incentive was the reward of the kingdom to come.
He knew eternal redemption was settled. He knew his eternal life was irrevokable.

His last words to Timothy were examples of how the incentive for the millennial kingdom
motivated him to so pursue the gaining of Christ.

I have fought the good fight; I have finished the course; I have kept the faith.
Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness,
with which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will recompense me in that day,

and not only me but also all those who have loved His appearing. (2 Tim. 4:7,8)

The crown he expected was not to be awarded by the Merciful Lord but by the righteous Judge.
Of course God is merciful. But in this case it is a reward, a recompense Paul seeks about righteous living.
It is not the objective righteous standing he has through justification by faith.
It is not the gift he poured out his life for but the recompense of crown for righteous living.
He expects the righteous Judge to reward his living a Christian life void of offense before God and man.

All of this motivation strongly implies the thousand year millennial kingdom.
 
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oikonomia

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Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:6)

This is "the first resurrection" or (best) resurrection.

It is not only the resurrection of life (John 5:29; 1 Cor. 15:23b; 1 Thess. 4:16), but also
the resurrection of reward.

And you will be blessed, because they do not have anything with which to repay you;
for it will be repaid to you in the resurrection of the righteous. (Luke 14:14)


It is therefore a resurrection of reward, recompense, and repayment.
It is an ex-resurrection or the extraordinary resurrection Paul sought for.

If perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead. (Phil. 3:11)

The ex-resurrection or out-resurrection is an extraordinary resurrection to kingship.
It normal outcome is that those who participate in it would be assigned to be co-kings with Christ. (Rev. 20:4,6)

Therefore it says "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection".

Why would the Apostle Paul seek to "attain" something automatically garuanteed ?
He could be relaxed and not have had to suffer so much. Why bother?
He bothered because the incentive of the millennial kingdom was a recompense, reward, attainment for him
fully enjoying grace in the church age.

The fact that there would be a need for priests to bring men and God together
strongly suggests that age still requires this ministry towards people inheriting that time.
they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Rev. 20:6)

The priests are there to contact God, and co-kings with Christ are there to reign over the nations in the millennium (Rev. 2:26-27; 12:5)
Don't listen to the complaint like "Oh that can't be. Everything is to be perfect when Jesus comes back."
The Bible teaches a millennial period with rewarded saints serving as priests and kings. Why not?


As priests the overcomers shall bring man in his need to God and minister God to man. And as kings they shall bring God in His
authority to man and represent God to shepherd man. This is a reward to them.

The believers whom Christ deems as defeated in this age will forfeit this reward.
However, after being dealt with by the Lord in the millennium, they will partricipate in the service of
God and in the kingship in the new heaven and new earth for eternity. (Rev. 22:3,5)
 
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sovereigngrace

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So: why does the millennial inhabitants turn wholesale from submission to Christ to submission to Satan at the drop of a hat?

Their allegiance was obviously feigned. It was bogus. Satan's ability to steal the wholesale affection of the millennial inhabitants (as the sand of the sea) away from Christ at the end of His supposed thousand year reign of glory with a rod of iron is an unprecedented historic turn-around. Christ's kingdom crumbles before Him in the Premil paradigm. Satan succeeds in winning the allegiance of billions of millennial inhabitants at the drop of a hat. Lucifer is then said to have the power and ability to organize this mammoth army and bring them against the glorified elect and pin them down in the "holy city." The Premil millennium is a tremendous bust. Satan generates the greatest religious turn-around in history: from a millennial kingdom where the nations wholesale submit to Christ in righteousness (as Premils portray) to a mass revival of Satanism as "the sand of the sea." The Premillennial millennium culminates in the greatest global uprising in history from the four corners of the earth as “the sand of the sea” against the “camp of the saints.”
 
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oikonomia

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So: why does the millennial inhabitants turn wholesale from submission to Christ to submission to Satan at the drop of a hat?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What we are told: People either born or having lived in the millennial period end up deceived, unthankful, and rebellious
once Satan is loosed from his thousand year prison.

What we are not told: Is this ALL the inhabitants reigned over or a large number of them? I do not believe the
multitude stirred up to rebel is every last one who was not regenerated who lived in the millennial.


Their allegiance was obviously feigned. It was bogus.
---------------------------------------------------------
The problem of the rebellion is not insurmountable unless one has made a paradigm more important that the words of the Bible.
Paradigms, creeds, theological formulas can be helpful. We should not hold any of them above the words of the text.

We have perhaps two choices: Be in awe at how powerful Satan is or worship God for how His purpose cannot be overcome.
Some may choose to be occupied with how powerful Satan is for deceiving so many people who should have known better.
I choose rather to be impressed with how his final assault fails, his usefulness to expose rebellion is exhausted, and God's purpose
cannot be defeated.

I choose to be more impressed with the triumph of God's eternal purpose than in the extent of Satan's revolts.

As a young Christian I was confounded how Satan could cause the Egyptian magicians to imitate the miracle of God
turning rods into serpents. I had to make a choice. Which am I going to spend the rest of my life contemplating:
How powerful is Satan?
How great is God?

I choose to rather worship God's invincibility over the surprising ability of Satan to oppose Him.

Their allegiance was obviously feigned. It was bogus.
---------------------------------------------------------
After so long a time of a paradise environment (not perfect but greatly restored) Satan's is used to
expose the dormant revolt still potentially in the hearts of men.
Was the allegience of the angels "bogus" who were deceived to follow Satan?
I don't know that they were pretending. I know that the potentiality of they willing to revolt with Lucifier was revealed.

Satan did so with angels in ancient times. The angels SHOULD have known not to follow the Daystar, [Lucifer].
What I am told: One third of angels of God were deceived who should have known better.
What I am not told: How long these angels existed in a state of innocence before being exposed.

What I am told: Satan will be loosed from his prison "a little while". (Rev. 20:3)
What I am not told:
How long is "a little while".

We often have to submit to the secret things God does not want us to know.
I don't know what Paul heard as "unspeakable words".
I don't know what the seven thunders said in Revelation 10 which John was not to write.

The things that are hidden belong to Jehovah our God; but the things that are revealed, to us and our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deut. 29:29)

Our complete knowledge is not required by God.
Our obedience to what He has revealed to us is required.

Christ's kingdom crumbles before Him in the Premil paradigm.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Christ's kingdom does not crumble. Satan deceives a great many born or having lived through
the millennial kingdom. They are the ones who crumble in defeat not Christ's kingdom.

And they went up upon the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; and fire came down out of heaven and devoured them.

And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:9,10)


Bible readers you make your choice which you are going to be more impressed with;
1.) How tricky and powerful Satan becomes?
2.) How final his utter defeat with all those who follow him?

My choice is to worship God that that is the END of Satanic rebellion forever - total defeat.
My choice is not to be in lifelong awe of Satan's ability to deceive.

Satan succeeds in winning the allegiance of billions of millennial inhabitants at the drop of a hat.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I choose to hold in greater awe God's ultimate victory concluding for eternity rebellion against His government.
I choose not to be more impressed that Satan could so amass an unthankful and deceived multitude after 1,000 years in "a little while" however long that "little while" is. I do not know if that means "at the drop of a hat" in God's view of time.

I choose to be more impressed with God's plan of salvation than in Adam's disobedience.
I choose to be more impressed with God rescuing Noah with the ark than in the judgment of the flood on manifold more people.
I chose to be more impressed with God bringing only Joshua, Caleb and a new generation into the good land than in
the great numbers witnessing God's Exodus being left to be disiplined with death in a 40 year wandering.
I chose to be more impressed with Christ's guarding 11 disciples from deception rather than with Judas
betraying the Lord.

When Satan acts to deceive I choose to contemplate MORE the truth of God and His ultimate triumph.

After Revelation 20 there are still two chapters of the complete fulfillment of God's eternal purpose.
God cannot fail to produce a match to match Christ in life and nature.
God cannot fail to produce a Body for His Son of humans completely permeated with the divine nature.
God cannot fail to produce a city which is the mingling of divinity and humanity.
God cannot be defeated from producing a temple, a living temple where He lives in people.

God cannot be hindered from preserving for eternity those into whom He has dispensed His Spirit.
God cannot be stopped from ending up with something better than angels - that is God-men united with His life.
God cannot be halted from duplicating Christ into a mass production of sons.
God is vindicated that forever forward no creature of his will exercise their free will to revolt against God.

Their eternal wiser choice stands forever - to follow God is better than to follow any other being no matter how wise and glorious
that other creature is.

The antidote to discouragement at reading Revelation 20's final rebellion is the reading of the two final chapters 21 & 22.

God used the greatest created being - Lucifer, the Daystar, the Anointed Cherub as a great repository to collect
in one group all angels, demons, and men who would use their free will to try to go another way besides God's way.
Satan is useful to God in this regard. Under ONE leader God would collect all who through eternity would decide they
do not want the government of God.

After he and every possible scenario of his schemes is exhausted and failed, God has no more use for him.
And into the lake of fire he goes with death and Hades.

What is left is the dwelling place of God in man, the light to whatever peoples live and walk in the light of New Jerusalem.
What is left is a Bride and Wife of the Triune God's embodiment in Christ.
What is left is the assurance that ALL possible revolt out of the free will of creatures is dealt with for eternity.
Only sons of God as those having eaten of the tree of life taking God's life into them as the New Jerusalem remains.
And apparently those healed by the leaves of the tree of life, the surviving nations who benefit from the lives and service of the sons of God.

I am more impressed with the climax of Revelation 21 and 22 than with the last try of the Devil before he is eternally discarded.

Satan's ability to steal the wholesale affection of the millennial inhabitants (as the sand of the sea) away from Christ at the end of His supposed thousand year reign of glory with a rod of iron is an unprecedented historic turn-around.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not believe every last one of those who are of the nations reigned over by the sons of God follow that revolt.
It is led by the regions of Gog and Magog. I do not automatically assume a great multitude as the sand of the sea
means all unregenerated restored nations follow that rebellion.

I do not believe "the camp of the saints" near Jerusalem has to mean every son of God all over the planet.
There could be the surrounding of "the camp of the saints" and many saints be elsewhere on the globe not in that camp.

The great number "as the sand of the sea" from the four corners of the earth need not mean ALL of the nations.
The camp of the saints need not mean ALL saints.

I choose again to be more impressed with Satan's final DEFEAT rather than his last ditch final TRY.
I choose again to be more impressed with the triumph of the New Jerusalem in the new universe and the eternal removal
of any possible free will deciding to rebel against the Triune God - for eternity.
 
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sovereigngrace

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So: why does the millennial inhabitants turn wholesale from submission to Christ to submission to Satan at the drop of a hat?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What we are told: People either born or having lived in the millennial period end up deceived, unthankful, and rebellious
once Satan is loosed from his thousand year prison.

What we are not told: Is this ALL the inhabitants reigned over or a large number of them? I do not believe the
multitude stirred up to rebel is every last one who was not regenerated who lived in the millennial.


Their allegiance was obviously feigned. It was bogus.
---------------------------------------------------------
The problem of the rebellion is not insurmatable unless one has made a paradigm more important that the words of the Bible.
Paradigms, creeds, theological formulas can be helpful. We should not hold any of them above the words of the text.

We have perhaps two choices: Be in awe at how powerful Satan is or worship God for how His purpose cannot be overcome.
Some may choose to be occupied with how powerful Satan is for deceiving so many people who should have known better.
I choose rather to be impressed with how his final assault fails, his usefulness to expose rebellion is exhausted, and God's purpose
cannot be defeated.

I choose to be more impressed with the triumph of God's eternal purpose than in the extent of Satan's revolts.

As a young Christian I was confounded how Satan could cause the Egyptian magicians to imitate the miracle of God
turning rods into serpents. I had to make a choice. Which am I going to spend the rest of my life contemplating:
How powerful is Satan?
How great is God?

I choose to rather worship God's invincibility over the surprising ability of Satan to oppose him.

Their allegiance was obviously feigned. It was bogus.
---------------------------------------------------------
After so long a time of a paradise environment (not perfect but greatly restored) Satan's us used to
expose the dormant revolt still potentially in the hearts of men.
Was the allegience of the angels "bogus" who were deceived to follow Satan?
I don't know that they were pretending. I know that the potentiality of they willing to revolt with Lucifier was revealed.

Satan did so with angels in ancient times. The angels SHOULD have known not to follow the Daystar, [Lucifer].
What I am told: One third of angels of God were deceived who should have known better.
What I am not told: How long these angels existed in a state of innocence before being exposed.

What I am told: Satan will be loosed from his prison "a little while". (Rev. 20:3)
What I am not told:
How long is "a little while".

We often have to submit to the secret things God does not want us to know.
I don't know what Paul heard as "unspeakable words".
I don't know what the seven thunders said in Revelation 10 which John was not to write.

The things that are hidden belong to Jehovah our God; but the things that are revealed, to us and our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deut. 29:29)

Our complete knowledge is not required by God.
Our obedience to what He has revealed to us is required.

Christ's kingdom crumbles before Him in the Premil paradigm.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Christ's kingdom does not crumble. Satan deceives a great many born or having lived through
the millennial kingdom. They are the ones who crumble in defeat not Christ's kingdom.

And they went up upon the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; and fire came down out of heaven and devoured them.

And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:9,10)


Bible readers you make your choice which you are going to be more impressed with;
1.) How tricky and powerful Satan becomes?
2.) How final his utter defeat with all those who follow him?

My choice is to worship God that that is the END of Satanic rebellion forever - total defeat.
My choice is not to hold be in lifelong awe of Satan's ability to deceive.

Satan succeeds in winning the allegiance of billions of millennial inhabitants at the drop of a hat.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I choose to hold in greater awe God's ultimate victory concluding for eternity rebellion against His government.
I choose not to be more impressed that he could so amass an unthankful and deceived multitude after 1,000 in "a little while" however long
that "little while" is. I do not know if that means "at the drop of a hat" in God's view of time.

I choose to be more impressed with God's plan of salvation than in Adam's disobedience.
I choose to be more impressed with God rescuing Noah with the ark than in the judgment of the flood on manifold more people.
I chose to be more impressed with God bringing only Joshua, Caleb and a new generation into the good land than in
the great numbers witnessing God's Exodus being left to be disiplined with death in a 40 year wandering.
I chose to be more impressed with Christ's guarding 11 disciples from deception rather than with Judas
betraying the Lord.

When Satan acts to deceive I choose to contemplate MORE the truth of God and His ultimate triumph.

After Revelation 20 there are still two chapters of the complete fulfillment of God's eternal purpose.
God cannot fail to produce a match to match Christ in life and nature.
God cannot fail to produce a Body for His Son of humans completely permeated with the divine nature.
God cannot fail to produce a city which is the mingling of divinity and humanity.
God cannot be defeated from producing a temple, a living temple where He lives in people.

God cannot be hindered from preserving for eternity those into whom He has dispensed His Spirit.
God cannot be stopped from ending up with something better than angels - that is God-men united with His life.
God cannot be halted from duplicating Christ into a mass production of sons.
God is vindicated that forever forward no creature of his will exercise their free will to revolt against God.

Their eternal wiser choice stands forever - to follow God is better than to follow any other being no matter how wise and glorious
that other creature is.

The antidote to discouragement at reading Revelation 20's final rebellion is the reading of the two final chapters 21 & 22.

God used the greatest created being - Lucifer, the Daystar, the Anointed Cherub as a great repository to collect
in one group all angels, demons, and men who would use their free will to try to go another way besides God's way.
Satan is useful to God in this regard. Under ONE leader God would collect all who through eternity would decide they
do not want the government of God.

After he and every possible scenario of his schemes is exhausted and failed, God has no more use for him.
And into the lake of fire he goes with death and Hades.

What is left is the dwelling place of God in man, the light to whatever peoples live and walk in the light of New Jerusalem.
What is left is a Bride and Wife of the Triune God's embodiment in Christ.
What is left is the assurance that ALL possible revolt out of the free will of creatures is dealt with for eternity.
Only sons of God as those having eaten of the tree of life taking God's life into them as the New Jerusalem remains.
And apparently those healed by the leaves of the tree of life, the surviving nations who benefit from the lives and service of the sons of God.

I am more impressed with the climax of Revelation 21 and 22 than with the last try of the Devil before he is eternally discarded.

Satan's ability to steal the wholesale affection of the millennial inhabitants (as the sand of the sea) away from Christ at the end of His supposed thousand year reign of glory with a rod of iron is an unprecedented historic turn-around.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not believe every last one of those who are of the nations reigned over by the sons of God follow that revolt.
It is lead by the regions of Gog and Magog. I do not automatically assume a great multitude as the sand of the sea
means all unregenerated restored nations follow that rebellion.

I do not believe "the camp of the saints" near Jerusalem has to mean every son of God all over the planet.
There could be the surrounding of "the camp of the saints" and many saints be elsewhere on the globe not in that camp.

The great number "as the sand of the sea" from the four corners of the earth need not mean ALL of the nations.
The camp of the saints need not mean ALL saints.

I choose again to be more impressed with Satan's final DEFEAT rather than his last ditch final TRY.
I choose again to be more impressed with the triumph of the New Jerusalem in the new universe and the eternal removal
of any possible free will deciding to rebel against the Triune God - for eternity.
You are totally avoiding the obvious. It does not add up. The picture Premil tries to depict of some future millennium is a fallacy. It is not taught in Revelation 20, therefore it will never happen. I am examining Premil with Premil. And what happens? It quickly falls apart.

Where in Revelation 20 does it describe the millennium as "a time of a paradise environment (not perfect but greatly restored)"? Nowhere! That is a Premil invention. You are simply telling us what you have been taught, not what the sacred text teaches.

The rest of your post is fudging the issue.

Disprove this, and your doctrine comes tumbling down. The ball is in your court to prove your claims. The first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove." So far, you have only ducked around the issue.
 
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oikonomia

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This does not add up.
There are things in the Bible that seem not to add up according to us.
I will not sacrifice my trust in what is written to preserve a paradigm which has limited use.

I do not think the Bible can be systematized 100%.
Overcoming saints reign over sparred people for 1,000 years.
One more last ditch attempt by the loosed Satan amasses from their numbers a last rebellion which is crushed.

I trust my Father who has revealed it to me. If this alludes my natural desire that the Bible be 100%
systematized that is too bad for me. No creed, no matter how helpful, should be held in higher regard than the words of God.

We will deal with the difficulty of why I think it seems not to add up to man's typical understanding of God's will.
It doesn't seem to add up because we are too "man centered" and not enough God's purpose centered.

We think God is happy with people who live forever because it so meets the need of people.
But God had plenty of angels that lived forever.
I see no reason why Adam in his state of neutrality and innocence could not have lived forever.

Apparently we do not appreciate that God wanted more than just longevity or even everlastingness in humans.
He wants them to be like Christ, to match Christ, to be vessels to contain God, to be counterpart for the mingling of God and man
as prototyped in the Son of God.

So it perplexes us that after thousand years men still not having the life of God within them might again be deceived.
Adam was deceived. Men restored to be like Adam apparently could be deceived.

The picture Premil tries to depict of some future millennium is a fallacy. It is not taught in Revelation 20, therefore it will never happen. I am examining Premil with Premil. And what happens? It quickly falls apart.
This incessant patting yourself on the back doesn't cut it to make the millennial kingdom dissolve into myth.
I submit to things I am only told in part as to all details.

Millions of humans have died before being born or too young. What is God going to do with all those souls?
I don't know. I know in part. I can speak for the Lord in part.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
But when that which is complete comes, that which is in part will be rendered useless.

For now we see in a mirror obscurely, but at that time face to face; now I know in part, but at that time I will fully know even as also I was fully known.

The man who wrote that under inspiration penned some 13 of the 27 books of the New Testament.
He said "we know in part" including himself. I am in good company to admit that I know not in total completeness everything.

God tells us that after 1,000 years the last rebellion of men who by all means REALLY should know better occurs nonetheless.
It fails. It is not a testament to who awe struck we should be with the Devil.
It is a testament to his revolt not being within a definite end. He can exhaust every scheme he has. But his last ditch attempt will also fail.

I protest you sighing that Christ's kingdom crumbles.
The opposite is what I see. His kingdom is unshakable and Satan's kingdom crumbles into the eternal perdition.
My Bible does not end with Revelation chapter 20. It ends with chapters 21 and 22.

Where in Revelation 20 does it describe the millennium as "a time of a paradise environment (not perfect but greatly restored)"? Nowhere! That is a Premil invention. You are simply telling us what you you have been talk, not what the sacred text teaches.

The rest of your post is fudging the issue.

Disprove this, and your doctrine comes tumbling down. The ball is in your court to prove your claims. The first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove." So far, you have only ducked around the issue.
I think I will wait to see what other posters may ask of me.
It is evident that you are not convinced that there will be a millennial kingdom.

You didn't prove I added to the text of the Bible as charged.
So please don't tell me whose court the ball is in.
You had your chance and chose to ignore your wreckless claim or retract it.

I really want to see now what some other contributors would have to say.
No one is stopping you from teaching as you want. Ie. "Going with NO millennial kingdom has NO problems."
The only problem is it makes five mentions of a thousand year kingdom mean there is NONE.
That's a problem.

It is also a problem that A-mill reduces the incentive to run the Christian race, seeking for the best resurrection, the outstanding one,
the out-resurrection that Paul strove to attain as a prize.

If perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue,
if even I may lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3:11,12)
 
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sovereigngrace

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There are things in the Bible that seem not to add up according to us.
I will not sacrifice my trust in what is written to preserve a paradigm which has limited use.

I do not think the Bible can be systematized 100%.
Overcoming saints reign over sparred people for 1,000 years.
One more last ditch attempt by the loosed Satan amasses from their numbers a last rebellion which is crushed.

I trust my Father who has revealed it to me. If this alludes my natural desire that the Bible be 100%
systematized that is too bad for me. No creed, no matter how helpful, should be held in higher regard than the words of God.

We will deal with the difficulty of why I think it seems not to add up to man's typical understanding of God's will.
It doesn't seem to add up because we are too "man centered" and not enough God's purpose centered.

We think God is happy with people who live forever because it so meets the need of people.
But God had plenty of angels that lived forever.
I see no reason why Adam in his state of neutrality and innocence could not have lived forever.

Apparently we do not appreciate that God wanted more than just longevity or even everlastingness in humans.
He wants them to be like Christ, to match Christ, to be vessels to contain God, to be counterpart for the mingling of God and man
as prototyped in the Son of God.

So it perplexes us that after thousand years men still not having the life of God within them might again be deceived.
Adam was deceived. Men restored to be like Adam apparently could be deceived.


This incessant patting yourself on the back doesn't cut it to make the millennial kingdom dissolve into myth.
I submit to things I am only told in part as to all details.

Millions of humans have died before being born or too young. What is God going to do with all those souls?
I don't know. I know in part. I can speak for the Lord in part.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
But when that which is complete comes, that which is in part will be rendered useless.

For now we see in a mirror obscurely, but at that time face to face; now I know in part, but at that time I will fully know even as also I was fully known.

The man who wrote that under inspiration penned some 13 of the 27 books of the New Testament.
He said "we know in part" including himself. I am in good company to admit that I know not in total completeness everything.

God tells us that after 1,000 years the last rebellion of men who by all means REALLY should know better occurs nonetheless.
It fails. It is not a testament to who awe struck we should be with the Devil.
It is a testament to his revolt not being within a definite end. He can exhaust every scheme he has. But his last ditch attempt will also fail.

I protest you sighing that Christ's kingdom crumbles.
The opposite is what I see. His kingdom is unshakable and Satan's kingdom crumbles into the eternal perdition.
My Bible does not end with Revelation chapter 20. It ends with chapters 21 and 22.


I think I will wait to see what other posters may ask of me.
It is evident that you are not convinced that there will be a millennial kingdom.

You didn't prove I added to the text of the Bible as charged.
So please don't tell me whose court the ball is in.
You had your chance and chose to ignore your wreckless claim or retract it.

I really want to see now what some other contributors would have to say.
No one is stopping you from teaching as you want. Ie. "Going with NO millennial kingdom has NO problems."
The only problem is it makes five mentions of a thousand year kingdom mean there is NONE.
That's a problem.

It is also a problem that A-mill reduces the incentive to run the Christian race, seeking for the best resurrection, the outstanding one,
the out-resurrection that Paul strove to attain as a prize.

If perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue,
if even I may lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3:11,12)

You are obviously making this up as you go. You are adding onto the Word of God. If you had a hard Scripture you would present it. I will represent:

Where in Revelation 20 does it describe the millennium as "a time of a paradise environment (not perfect but greatly restored)"?
 
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sovereigngrace

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I really want to see now what some other contributors would have to say.
No one is stopping you from teaching as you want. Ie. "Going with NO millennial kingdom has NO problems."
The only problem is it makes five mentions of a thousand year kingdom mean there is NONE.
That's a problem.

It is also a problem that A-mill reduces the incentive to run the Christian race, seeking for the best resurrection, the outstanding one,
the out-resurrection that Paul strove to attain as a prize.
I see multiple holes in your reasoning. I asked you: Re the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12, is that sixty minutes? You replied:

I do not know. My reading of it indicates a very short time.

You criticize Amils for interpreting the "thousand years" as a long indefinite period of time and yet when it suits your theology you take "one hour" as a short indefinite period of time. Yet you dogmatically insist that Amillennialists are in error for recognizing the figurative trust of the "thousand years" and this whole apocalyptic book. Amils see both. This is duplicity. This is horrible hermeneutics. You seem to cherry pick your interpretations in order to sustain Premil.
 
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oikonomia

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You are adding onto the Word of God.
And you will not point out the word/s added to the Word of God.

So if you couldn't produce proof of adding words the last six or so times I demanded proof,
why should I believe your slander now?

Rather these are the proposed understandings your teaching requires.

And he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and [DID NOT] bound him for a thousand years

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus . . . and they lived and
[WILL NOT] reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

but they will be priests of God and of Christ and
[WILL NOT] reign with Him for a thousand years.


That is what your twisting of the Scripture demands the reader interpret.
 
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oikonomia

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I see multiple holes in your reasoning. I asked you: Re the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12, is that sixty minutes? You replied:
In the case of world leaders receive authority for one hour . . .

It makes [erfect sense that sometime within three and a half years is that "one hour" expression to be fulfilled.
And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings,
who have not yet received a kingdom but receive authority as kings for one hour with the beast. (Rev. 17:12)


Similarly the "short time" in verse 10 . . .

It makes sense that this "short time" is within the scope of three and one half years.
And are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain only a short time. (Rev. 17:10)

But in Revelation 20:3 the "a little while" is not given ANY scope except it some time AFTER the thousand years.
And cast him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be loosed for a little while. (Rev. 20:3)

There is therefore reasonable context of scope for "one hour" within 3.5 years.
There is no provided context of scope for "a little while" other than it is at the end of a thousand years.
 
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oikonomia

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You criticize Amils for interpreting the "thousand years" as a long indefinite period of time
I do not criticize "a thousand years" may be long general period of time.
What the criticism is that this period is in the past with all of the particulars mentioned.

Saying the gospel went to the Gentiles for the last two millennia is that advent of Satan being bound and unable to
deceive the nations is your forced alternative theory. And that is supposed to be easier to believe?
It is a ridiculous however noble you attempt to make the Great Commission sound.
 
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oikonomia

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Paul tells the Corinthians (many of whom were Greek) that the apostles are not ignorant of
Satan's devices.

That we may not be taken advantage of by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes. (2 Cor. 2:11)

But according to sovereigngrace's A-mill history there should be no cause for concern.
Satan is bound in the bottomless pit and unable to have ANY schemes against the church now.

Or try to get A-mill sovereigngrace to tell us the date Satan was loosed for
a little while in the last two thousand years
supposedly to do what he couldn't once the gospel went to the Gentiles.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I see multiple holes in your reasoning. I asked you: Re the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12, is that sixty minutes? You replied:



You criticize Amils for interpreting the "thousand years" as a long indefinite period of time and yet when it suits your theology you take "one hour" as a short indefinite period of time. Amils see both. You seem to cherry pick your interpretations in order to sustain Premil. This is horrible hermeneutics. Yet you dogmatically insist that Amillennialists are in error for recognizing the figurative trust of the "thousand years" and this whole apocalyptic book.
Why are you avoiding my main question?

Where in Revelation 20 does it describe the millennium as "a time of a paradise environment (not perfect but greatly restored)"?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Paul tells the Corinthians (many of whom were Greek) that the apostles are not ignorant of
Satan's devices.

That we may not be taken advantage of by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes. (2 Cor. 2:11)

But according to sovereigngrace's A-mill history there should be no cause for concern.
Satan is bound in the bottomless pit and unable to have ANY schemes against the church now.

Or try to get A-mill sovereigngrace to tell us the date Satan was loosed for
a little while in the last two thousand years
supposedly to do what he couldn't once the gospel went to the Gentiles.
I shared this on another forum recently.

Ephesians 4:17-20 tells us: “that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.”

Ignorance is defined in the dictionary as: lack of knowledge, lack of understanding, lack of information, lack of education, or lack of awareness.
  • Ignorance in Scripture is associated with deception, imprisonment, blindness and darkness.
  • Enlightenment in Scripture is is associated with truth, liberty, sight and openness.
Who is it that deceives mankind?

Who is He that enlightens mankind?

2 Corinthians 4:4 confirms that “the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not” and 2 Timothy 2:26 explains how they are “taken captive by him at his will.”

Ignorance in Scripture is always linked to lack of knowledge of the Word of God. Satan knows he cannot negate, refute, or resist one word in God’s Word. That is because it is the truth. But his obsessive aim is to keep men from this Book. His primary objective is to prevent people from encountering the Gospel, understanding the message, and consequently seeing Christ as their Savior and Lord. The evil one knows darkness is simply the absence of light. If he can keep sinners in darkness, men will remain ignorant, deceived, blind, and bound in spiritual chains.

When we go back to the very beginning, in Genesis 3, Adam had perfect union and communion with God. There were no barriers between him and God. This was God’s plan for mankind. That continued unabated until Satan appeared.

Genesis 3:1-5: says: “Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”

Please see the test here for man is which voice man will submit to: will it be God or the enemy? The voice of God appeals to the spiritual man, the voice of Lucifer will be appealing to the flesh.

While spiritual deception emanates from the devil, spiritual enlightenment is sourced in Jesus Christ. Christ is the remedy to every spiritual need in a human being. He is the antidote to the ignorance, deception, imprisonment, blindness, and darkness. He is the answer to the spiritual problem.

Jesus testified in John 8:12: I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

Jesus testified in John 12:46: "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.”

The Old Testament


For many centuries Yahweh was ethnic Israel's God. He was God of the Hebrew people. After the First Advent, He was God of the nations. The Gospel opportunity widened to embrace the darkened Gentiles. This was not the case prior to Calvary, with the special exception of Nineveh. The Gospel expanse has gone from "the nation" (singular) before the cross to "the nations" (plural) after the cross. The nations now contain God's chosen people, not simply the nation!

In the Old Testament, God governed Israel in a theocracy, Satan, on the other hand, ruled the nations. The Gentiles were overwhelmingly ignorant to God’s truth and outside of His covenant favor. They were spiritually deceived. They were bound in paganism and blinded by idolatry. They sat in spiritual darkness. Only one single Gentile village/town/city experienced salvation that we know of. The world in general was deceived, not knowing anything about the grace of God or His merciful way of salvation.

Acts 17:30 tells us: “the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.”

What is “the times of this ignorance”? What does this mean? Who is this talking about? It is the state of the Gentile nations before the earthly ministry of Christ and the introduction of His Messianic reign. Before Christ came Satan was able to prevent the Word of God from being heard throughout the world. Before the cross, the heathen were ignorant to the truth and therefore in desperate need of enlightenment.

The Gentiles are constantly depicted in the Old Testament as being in darkness. They are described as being ignored, blind and without hope. They are depicted as being imprisoned in chains.

Acts 14:16 teaches that God in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.”

Did this mean every Gentile in the Old Testament time was unsaved?

No. This tells us that “all nations” were allowed “to walk in their own ways” in the Old Testament era. They were deceived by the lie of the devil and separated from God and from grace.
Before Christ came, Satan was able to prevent the Word of God from being heard throughout the world. The Gentiles are constantly depicted in the Old Testament as being in darkness. Before the cross they were ignorant to the truth and therefore in desperate need of enlightenment. Ignorance in Scripture is always linked to lack of knowledge of the Word of God. It is a fact that the Gospel witness had not reached the nations prior to the earthly ministry of Christ.

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, ye being in time past Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

The Gentiles generally were in a hopeless condition before the cross, “having no hope, and without God in the world” (Ephesians 2:12). That is a pretty grim state to be in. However, the darkness over the nations (ethnos) was lifted when the Gospel light began to shine. Now there was glorious hope and a way of escape from their despair. Satan had lost his grip over the nations, now it was time for him to be unseated in the lives of countless of millions of heathens.

Israel on the other hand, whilst often in rebellion, was subject to the truth. Prophet after prophet came preaching the unsearchable riches of God. They therefore had no excuse. The people were enlightened to the law of God and therefore God’s expectation of them. Notwithstanding, that did not mean the chosen nation was immune from satanic deception. Israel (who alone possessed God's special favor, and from whom the Messiah came) still mainly died in unbelief before Christ.

Satan was bound (or spiritually curtailed) in order to facilitate the invasion of his territory by the Gospel. Remember, Satan is a spiritual being; he must therefore be spiritually bound. That is what happened at the cross. Countless millions of Gentiles have come to Christ since the cross.

There was a spiritual deception over the Gentiles before the cross that has now been lifted. The darkness has been confronted and exposed and overcome through the Light of the truth. That light is centered in the person and message of Christ. Satan is no longer able to deceive the Gentiles in this New Testament age in the same manner and scope as he deceived them prior to Jesus’ binding Satan at the cross.

Scripture repeatedly identifies the Messianic intra-Advent period as the time of the enlightenment of the Gentiles. This does not in any way insinuate that all will be saved. Not in any way. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles are now without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted.

When Scripture speaks about the enlightenment of the Gentiles and the removal of the deception it doesn’t mean that every Gentile will be saved, but that the Gospel message and opportunity would be extended to them as a whole – just like Israel experienced it in the Old Testament.

Zacharias the father of John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost in Luke 1:67-80 and prophesied: “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life … Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.”

As you read through the Old Testament and as you see the revelation of God being outlined prior to the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry, believers knew that the Gospel was going to go the Gentiles. Here (in this passage) the enlightenment of the Gentiles is directly predicted. This is speaking about the great commission and this current intra-Advent period. Here is the foretelling of the enlightenment of the nations.

Luke 2:27 "the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel."

Many conveniently overlook the seismic change in regard to the Gospel opportunity that exist today (in comparison to before the cross) in regard to the nations access to truth. Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

The deception was lifted and truth shone bright throughout the nations.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Paul tells the Corinthians (many of whom were Greek) that the apostles are not ignorant of
Satan's devices.

That we may not be taken advantage of by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes. (2 Cor. 2:11)

But according to sovereigngrace's A-mill history there should be no cause for concern.
Satan is bound in the bottomless pit and unable to have ANY schemes against the church now.

Or try to get A-mill sovereigngrace to tell us the date Satan was loosed for
a little while in the last two thousand years
supposedly to do what he couldn't once the gospel went to the Gentiles.
Jesus showed us He bound the strongman 2000 years ago. You reject that. Your fight is with Him. Genesis 3:15 predicted, And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”

This is metaphoric language predicting the impairment of the devil through the earthly ministry of the Messiah. Satan was going to be spiritually incapacitated through the work of Christ. We see two amazing things in this prophecy, first, a profound picture of the cross, and second, the acute effect that it had upon the devil. This prophecy is a remarkable forecast of Calvary and the consequence of Christ’s atoning sacrifice on the enemy. It also addresses the incapacitating fate that befalls Satan. This shows that Satan’s ability to function has been impaired. His power and that of his deluded minions is restricted through the preaching of the Gospel and the advance of the kingdom of God. Satan’s power and his movement has been restrained, albeit not completely.

Significantly, the first prophecy of Christ and His coming and the devil and his doom in Scripture is a symbolic one with a literal interpretation. This is surely something Bible students should carefully note. It is also worth noting that nowhere in this well-known prophetic passage does it predict that Satan would be destroyed at Calvary – that is still to come – but that he would be restricted in his operations through the spiritual brain damage he would sustain there.

The bruising of Satan’s head by Christ broke the unchallenged sway of the devil over the nations. Jesus destroyed the incredible lordship that Satan had on the human race and plundered his house of countless souls. Since the cross, numerous Gentiles have been set free from their blindness and bondage. They have been delivered into the kingdom of God. In doing this, Christ destroyed the claims, authority and ownership that Satan had over the nations. Jesus made a way of escape for the Gentiles out of the kingdom of Satan. The power and influence Satan once had over the Gentiles was assaulted through the earthly ministry of Christ. This curtailed the devil, allowing the free-flow of the Gospel across the world. Christ battered Satan’s house, damaged his authority, limiting the scale of his influence. He indeed destroyed the overwhelming claims and ownership that Satan had over the Gentile people.

Matthew 12:22-29 records,Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (Gr. deo) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”


The “strong man” here is Satan. His “house” is the dark area of spiritual influence that Satan rules over in the kingdom of darkness. His “goods” are the humans he enslaves in bondage and servitude. To “spoil his house” and “spoil his goods” is to conquer those who are enslaved under the devil’s control and liberate them into the kingdom of God.

Obviously, the fact that Jesus cast out devils by the Spirit of God demonstrated that the promised kingdom of God has already come. This parable confirms that the liberating of the elect could not happen “except he first bind the strong man.” According to Christ, this deliverance from captivity could not happen before Satan was spiritually bound. The binding therefore had to precede the liberation of the redeemed and was definitely not delayed 2000 years+ until the second coming as Premillennialists would wrongly argue. This all occurred through the earthly ministry of Christ.

He came to the strong man's house (this sinful world) and spiritually chained Satan. He is like a dog on a leash that will only harm those that foolishly get close to him. He has power and movement but it is restrained and limited since the ministry of Christ. The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvellously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (Gr. deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”


Christ’s earthly ministry expressly bound Satan and damaged his wicked house on this earth. This was indeed what was prophesied in the Garden of Eden. It didn’t say that the cross would destroy him, but hamper him in his schemes. His head was bruised by the supernatural punch of Christ.

The Lord confronted Satan head on in his own backyard and soundly defeated him. Everywhere that Christ went, demons were subject to his every word. This authority was in turn delegated to his disciples who operated this same spiritual power were ever they gone. His servants enforced his authority casting many demons out and seeing many men and women delivered from the power of Satan to the power of God. This was unprecedented. God's people, as a whole, had now power over the enemy.

Significantly, the Greek word deo (Strong’s 1210) employed here is the exact same word used in Revelation 20 which means to bind in either a literal or a spiritual sense. This is what happened everywhere the kingdom of God was seen, the kingdom of darkness was suppressed. Moreover, at Calvary, Satan’s power to deceive the nations was spiritual bound or curtailed by the finished and victorious work of Christ. Revelation 20:2-3 states, “And he (Christ) laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and (Gr. deo) bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more.”
 
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sovereigngrace

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I do not criticize "a thousand years" may be long general period of time.
What the criticism is that this period is in the past with all of the particulars mentioned.

Saying the gospel went to the Gentiles for the last two millennia is that advent of Satan being bound and unable to
deceive the nations is your forced alternative theory. And that is supposed to be easier to believe?
It is a ridiculous however noble you attempt to make the Great Commission sound.
Understandably avoided these questions before. I will repeat them.

Isaiah 42:6-7 says, "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 58:6-12 asks, “Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 60:1-3 says, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 61:1 says, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

In Matthew 12 we see the religious Jews rejecting Christ. Matthew 12:14-22 records, “Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Luke 2:27-32: “And he (Simeon) came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Acts 13:46-48: “Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Acts 26:17: "Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Romans 15:8-12 records: "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Paul the Apostle said to the Galatians believers in Galatians 3:7-9, “know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham (in Genesis 12:1-3, 17:5-6, 18:18, 22:15-18), saying, in thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Galatians 3:13-14 says, Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Ephesians 3:5 "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel"

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

1 John 2:8: the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.”

Does this mean there is no darkness now? Of course not! These are generalities, just like Revelation 20.

2 Peter 1:19 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts"


Does this mean there is no darkness now? Of course not! These are generalities, just like Revelation 20.

1 Peter 2:9-10: “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”


Does this mean there is no darkness now? Of course not! These are generalities, just like Revelation 20.

Revelation 20:2-3 reads: “And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”


Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not.

Scripture often makes general sweeping statements in regard to a people or peoples pertaining to their spiritual state in a given era.
 
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oikonomia

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Paul said that he did not nullify the grace of God.
I do not nullify the grace of God; (Gal. 2:21a)

This indicates that he did not by choice when he well could have.
At the second coming of Christ there will be reward to Christians who also let the
grace of God do as much work in them as they could, not nullifying grace.

It is foolish to think all who nullified the grace will be equally rewarded
as those who did not nullify the grace. Those who allowed grace as much opportunity
to work in them will receive more reward than those who stymied and hindered that grace.

The time for this distinction of reward in not in eternity but in the thousand year millennial kingdom.
 
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oikonomia

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Understandably avoided these questions before. I will repeat them.

Isaiah 42:6-7 says,
Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 58:6-12
Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 60:1-3 says,
Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 61:1 says,
Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

In Matthew 12 we see the religious Jews rejecting Christ. Matthew 12:14-22 records,
Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Luke 2:27-32:
Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Acts 13:46-48:
Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Acts 26:17:
Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Romans 15:8-12 records:
Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Galatians 3:13-14 says,
Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying,
Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Ephesians 3:5
Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

1 John 2:8:
Does this mean there is no darkness now? Of course not! These are generalities, just like Revelation 20.

2 Peter 1:19
Does this mean there is no darkness now? Of course not! These are generalities, just like Revelation 20.

1 Peter 2:9-10:
Does this mean there is no darkness now? Of course not! These are generalities, just like Revelation 20.

Revelation 20:2-3 reads: “And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”


Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not.

Scripture often makes general sweeping statements in regard to a people or peoples pertaining to their spiritual state in a given era.
So you went through all of that simply to agree with my point.
The great multitude as the sand of the sea need not mean all the nations' people reigned over during the millennium.

This I explained to you above in post #124 writing the following.
--------------------------------------------------------
I do not believe every last one of those who are of the nations reigned over by the sons of God follow that revolt.
It is led by the regions of Gog and Magog. I do not automatically assume a great multitude as the sand of the sea
means all unregenerated restored nations follow that rebellion.

I do not believe "the camp of the saints" near Jerusalem has to mean every son of God all over the planet.
There could be the surrounding of "the camp of the saints" and many saints be elsewhere on the globe not in that camp.

The great number "as the sand of the sea" from the four corners of the earth need not mean ALL of the nations.
The camp of the saints need not mean ALL saints.
----------------------------------------------------------

This calls for me believing that in Revelation 21,22 some of nations are left to
walk in the light of the New Jerusalem - in the age of the new heaven and new earth.

And the nations will walk by its light; and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it. (Rev. 21:24)

and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. (Re. 22:2b)


Those who EAT the fruit of the tree of life means those into whom God has dispensed Himself into making them sons.
Those who are HEALED by the leaves of the tree of life means restored nations blessed by the reigning of the sons of God.

The fruit represents to taking in of the Triune God as life and nature taken in as "food."
The leaves represent the blessing to the lives to others by the sons of God with His life and nature.
 
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oikonomia

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Jesus showed us He bound the strongman 2000 years ago. You reject that. Your fight is with Him. Genesis 3:15 predicted, And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”
There are some very good things in this post. I would like to highlight the good points when I go over it.
Some people will see I hope that the good points, the Christ centered and Christ's work points do not have to
mean there is no millennial kingdom.

The dichotomy established Ie. "Because of these wonderful things done by the Lord Jesus is VERSES any millennial kingdom" does not
necessarily have to follow.

The points concerning the effective work of Christ and our need to stand upon Him and His finished work
is agreed to basically. It just doesn't ipso facto mean "No thousand year future period."
 
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WilliamLhk

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Totally disagree. Just saying this means nothing. How me why i am supposedly wrong.
Sure. John is clearly told in Rev. 4: 1, "“Come up here, and I will show you the things which must take place after these things.” After what things? The Church Age of Revelation 2-3.

So everything in Revelation 12 speaks of events to take place in the End Times. NOT "things" prior to the Church Age's beginning, which is how you try to interpret the Manchild.

Your interpretation denies the heavenly testimony of the one speaking to John in Rev. 4.

The Manchild is the elect group of whom Jesus prophesied in Rev. 2:26-27:

2;26 “And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’

as I also have received from My Father.

12:5 She bore a Manchild who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

14. Revelation 12 Explains all of the essential elements of Revelation 12, including the Woman, the Manchild, the time in history, and the 1260 days. Revelation 12
 
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