Revelation 12:5-11 proves the Amil paradigm

[sovereigngrace]

That it is imaginary is what you are trying to convince us of.

Show me what scripture I "added" to. I have a different interpretation of some verses which I believe is better than what you teach.
The accusation of me "adding" to scripture I reject.
But if you think I added to the text give me your example/s.

The Recovery Version which I usually quote puts in italics words in English supplied by translator for English clarity.
When I see words italicized I know that they are not in the Greek text but editorialy supplied.
Many English translations do this.

Let's look and see what italicized words are in the RcV's translation of Revelation 20:1-8.
The spacing is my own.


And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
And he laid hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years
And cast him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be loosed for a little while.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and of those who had not worshipped the beast nor his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison
And will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. Their number is like that of the sand of the sea.


I am "stuck" on what the Scripture appears to tell us, as well as I should be so "stuck."
Now below we get into to analysis we can examine.

With respect, I disagree. The teaching of Luke12:45-48 is about the preparedness of HIS SERVANTS not the whole world in general.
The whole of the world are not His servants. Many do not own Him. Many do not think of Him as their master. They do not
think about Christ's second coming because they deem Him to be dead and gone.

The saved think of Him as thier master

Do not be afraid, little flock, because your Father has been well pleased to give you the kingdom.
He is speaking to "the little flock" of His believers.

Sell your possessions and give alms; make for yourselves purses which do not become old, an unfailing treasure in the heavens, where thief does not come near nor even moth corrupts;
Selling one's possesssions will not help the one who denies Jesus is the Lord, the Son of God, died and risen.

For where your treasure is, there also your heart will be.
Only His little flock cares for heaven's existence or the value related to it.

Let your loins be girded and your lamps burning,
Such advice means nothing to the one assuming Jesus is dead, not coming again, not expected ever to return.

And you be like men waiting for their own master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately.
Ask your neighborhood athiest / agnostic / non-Christian if he is expecting a pleasant bridegroom Jesus to return from a wedding feast.

Blessed are those slaves whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Truly I tell you that he will gird himself and will have them recline at table, and he will come to them and serve them.
Ask the unbeliever if she considers herself the slave of Lord Jesus / the servant of the Lord Jesus.

And if he comes in the second watch, or if in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves.
The teaching is aimed at the little flock of those EXPECTING all these things from their Lord.

So the follow up about the discipline of lashes is not about the eternal punishment of the unbeliever.
It is about the limited punishment of the sloppy, hypocritical servant in the "little flock" who got caught by His sudden second coming.

But if that slave says in his heart, My master is delaying his coming, and begins to beat the male servants and the female servants and to eat and to drink and become drunk,

The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers. (vs. 45,46)

His discpline will be to be treated like the unbelievers.
His punishment is not to be the eternally perished unbeliever.

And the degree to which he should have known better influences the severighty of this punishment.
And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes;
But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lashes. But to everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required from him; and to whom much has been committed, they will ask of him all the more. (vs. 46,47)

Now if you wish to borrow the teaching for a gospel message to unbelievers I would not insist that
the Holy Spirit could not use it. I would preach the gospel of FIRST they need to repent and be redeemed by the blood
of the Redeemer and receive Him in resurrection as their Lord. (Luke 24:44-48)

You have more from Matthew 24:35-51 to consider. But I will stop this reply here.

Your commentary is going somewhere the Scriptures are not going. There is no basis whatsoever for your arguments. You claim Revelation 20, but you are incapable of showing your teaching in that chapter. That is because it does not exist there. You force it into the text. You then try to force your beliefs upon other passages that do not mention a future millennium. They are judgment passages that talk about the judgment of the righteous and the wicked. That all occurs at the second coming. Judgment day is a day when judgement is executed. There is no thousand years of judgment. It does not teach that. It does not say anywhere that there is impending age or dispensation of “REWARD or DISAPPROVEMENT … given to the servants of the Lord Jesus.” That is your own private opinion.

 

[oikonomia]

Your commentary is going somewhere the Scriptures are not going. There is no basis whatsoever for your arguments.

Nay. But the teaching of A-millinnialism dampens Christian incentive.
A-millennialism waters down the incentive to pursue Christ to GAIN Him after being saved.
It is therefore not healthy. Your teaching encourages lack of incentive to run the Christian race.

You claim Revelation 20, but you are incapable of showing your teaching in that chapter.

Morally your A-millennial teaching not only twists plain words of Scripture imo. But it also nullifies
the great incentive the apostles showed in wanting to GAIN Christ. A-millennialism nullifies the response to pursue the high calling of God upward. Once the sinner is forgiven in A-millennial theology God is satisfied and there is no further need to work out salvation of transformation.

A-millennial teaching is unhealthy and not worth the attention you demand of it.

I does not understand that God could have a purpose for men beyond just forgiving them.
It obscures or outright denies that in addition to being saved one could receive a reward or have lacking consecration perfected.

With A-millennial denial of the millennial kingdom the incentive to run the race for the prize is watered down or negated altogether.
Paul would not endorse it for he sought the prize to gain Christ as much as he could. What need is there for the A-millennialist?

I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward. (Phil. 3:14)

The A-millennialist would say to Paul - "What need for your seeking any "goal" or any "prize"? All the goal and prize
you have you received in full the moment you were forgiven and born again."

The millennialist who believes properly sees the goal, the prize, the reward in the thousand year kingdom.
Conversely the proper millennialist understanding sees the saved man should not expect reward for a chronic, habitual subnormal
Christian life. He should expect also "If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:15)

Any A-millennial OR Millennialist opinion which does not comprehend the plain teaching of 1 Corinthians 3:14,15 is not healthy teaching. I don't care how many good reasons they think they have for their viewpoint.

That is because it does not exist there. You force it into the text.

Show me which word/s I "FORCED" into Revelation 20:1-10.
And if you do not show what words I have "FORCED" into the text you should retract your false accusation.

I expect your next post to underline the "FORCED" words or a give a retraction of the charge.

A-millennial interpretations rob the Christian of motivation to work out his salvation with fear and trembling BECAUSE
he knows God is operating in him both the willing and the working for His good pleasure.

So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but now much rather in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure. (Phil. 2:12,13)

For the A-millennialist the "good pleasure" of God does not go beyond basic redemption and forgiveness.
Paul did not have such a belief that there was no age of reward, prize, goal, crown of righteousness, co-reign with Christ as an incentive.

Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue, if even I may lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do: Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before,
I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward. (Phil 3:12-14)

Furthermore Paul's teaching is healthier than A-millennial apathy because Paul says the mature should be walk by
the same rule.

I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward.
Let us therefore, as many as are full-grown, have this mind;
and if in anything you are otherwise minded, this also God will reveal to you. (Phil. 3:14,15)

We can only hope and pray that the "otherwise minded" will be shown what they do not see, by God.

 

[oikonomia]

I would encourage Christians not to be drugged by A-millennial apathy and disbelief in the coming kingdom age.

Paul was very clear about the assurance of eternal life. Yet look at his attitude pursuing Christ for the crown for righteous LIVING.
This is not just a crown of mercy or a crown of grace. He sought a crown for practical righteous living from the time
he entered into the Christian course.

I have fought the good fight; I have finished the course; I have kept the faith.
Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness,
with which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will recompense me in that day,
and not only me but also all those who have loved His appearing. (2 Tim. 4:7-8)

Taking in copious amounts of A-millennialist apathy will dull and stupify your innate
sense to pursue Christ with righteous living. This apathy teaches as if you are not in race for a prize.
That prize in addition to eternal redemption is administered during the millennial kingdom.

There are many who say they love the Lord.
The question is will you love His appearing?

We may love the Lord but not feel comfortable should He suddenly appear catching us in the flesh or backslidden.
The kingdom reward for finishing well the Christian course is biblical and incentivizing.

A-millennial apathy or millennial naivete, for that matter, both are unhealthy Christian teaching.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Nay. But the teaching of A-millinnialism dampens Christian incentive.
A-millennialism waters down the incentive to pursue Christ to GAIN Him after being saved.
It is therefore not healthy. Your teaching encourages lack of incentive to run the Christian race.

Morally your A-millennial teaching not only twists plain words of Scripture imo. But it also nullifies
the great incentive the apostles showed in wanting to GAIN Christ. A-millennialism nullifies the response to pursue the high calling of God upward. Once the sinner is forgiven in A-millennial theology God is satisfied and there is no further need to work out salvation of transformation.

Once someone starts to go down this road, you know they've lost the debate. This is ridiculous. This is just petty partisan party politics. I'm not interested in that. There's no objectivity or veracity to that. It remind me of being at primary school hearing childish kids boast "my daddy is taller than your daddy." It does not advance your argument in anyway. It actually diminishes it.

The reality is: the reason you are frustrated is because you cannot bring any proof-texts to the table that say what you are saying. Until you do, I will take that as an admission that you have nothing.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I would encourage Christians not to be drugged by A-millennial apathy and disbelief in the coming kingdom age.

Paul was very clear about the assurance of eternal life. Yet look at his attitude pursuing Christ for the crown for righteous LIVING.
This is not just a crown of mercy or a crown of grace. He sought a crown for practical righteous living from the time
he entered into the Christian course.

I have fought the good fight; I have finished the course; I have kept the faith.
Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness,
with which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will recompense me in that day,
and not only me but also all those who have loved His appearing. (2 Tim. 4:7-8)

Taking in copious amounts of A-millennialist apathy will dull and stupify your innate
sense to pursue Christ with righteous living. This apathy teaches as if you are not in race for a prize.
That prize in addition to eternal redemption is administered during the millennial kingdom.

There are many who say they love the Lord.
The question is will you love His appearing?

We may love the Lord but not feel comfortable should He suddenly appear catching us in the flesh or backslidden.
The kingdom reward for finishing well the Christian course is biblical and incentivizing.

A-millennial apathy or millennial naivete, for that matter, both are unhealthy Christian teaching.

Is this humble Christian language? Is this edifying? Is this fair? No. I am not getting into the gutter with you. This is brutal. It is vicious. It is offensive. This is where Premils go when they cannot support their speculations biblically. Ad hominem is the eventual destination. Sad!

I am done talking to you. I am not going to give this credence.

 

[oikonomia]

Once someone starts to go down this road, you know they've lost the debate.

Where is the evidence I added text to Revelation 20:1-8?
Going down the road of false accusations with no retraction is no good sign.

I'm telling you and everyone taken in by your A-Millennial apathy. It is not healty teaching.
Gradually it whittles away the incentive to pursue the gaining of Christ for the normal reward and to avoid
the abnormal discipline which is coming.

I will not be impressed by your characterizing this as either losing a debate or hitting below the belt.

Is this humble Christian language? Is this edifying? Is this fair?

To point out that to take away Christian expectation of doing well for the kingdom reward because there is
no coming kingdom is more than fair. Now any minute now I expect to see proof that I added words to the
text of Revelation 20:1-8 or an apology from you for the false accusation. Then we can ascertain the Christian humility
you exhibit after your wreckless charge.

No. I am not getting into the gutter with you.

It is not the gutter. It is the high peak revelation in the crystal clear and clean sky above.
That's what you're not getting into.

This is brutal. It is vicious. It is offensive. This is where Premils go when they cannot support their speculations biblically. Ad hominem is the eventual destination. Sad!

Your proof that I added to the text?
False accusations that you cannot back up, that's kind of brutal.
Reluctance to retract the wreckless charge, that's not humility.

I am done talking to you. I am not going to give this credence.

Noted, no backing up of your false accusation of me adding text to Scripture.
And no second thought or retraction that you spoke wildly.

You were saying something about desperaton?

 

[Timtofly]

Where in Revelation 20 do you see any mention of "the restoration of this current creation ... back to perfection"? You have nothing. You know that. You have to force it into the text. That is adding unto to Scripture.

The restoration is the Second Coming. Revelation 20 does not have to go into all the detail about the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord is the period of time following the Second Coming.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The restoration is the Second Coming. Revelation 20 does not have to go into all the detail about the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord is the period of time following the Second Coming.

I agree that the full restoration occurs at the second coming, but Revelation 20 does not show that. It depicts a corrupt state that sees the wicked grow to the sand of the sea and then overrun the millennial state. Premillennialists want Revelation 20 to teach a period of perfect bliss, but it is full of sin, death, and corruption like our age. That is because it relates to this age. It has been ongoing since the first resurrection.

You keep saying the day of the Lord is a literal 1,000-year period of time following the second coming, but neither 2 Peter 3, Revelation 20 nor any other biblical passages teach that. I cannot quote anything because it is your own theory. If you had it, you would have quoted it by now.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Premils

I see more and more Premillennialists gravity toward the idea that the earth to come at the second coming is going to be perfect, glorious and regenerated. Of course, this is classic Amillennialism. The only problem is, when you read Revelation 20, you discover that it is far from that. In fact, the millennial earth is overrun by the wicked and wickedness at the end - "as the sand of the sea" (Revelation 20:8). This is not a picture of what perfection looks like. This is not the new heavens and new earth, where the curse is eternally lifted, and the lamb will finally have perfect communion with lion. The millennium is infested with all the same blight of corruption as we endure now – sin, death, decay, and wickedness. It becomes a global war-zone - from "the four quarters of the earth" (Revelation 20:8). This parallels our day. That is because, Revelation 20 relates to the intra-Advent, the time that we are in now between the first and second coming.

I understand the deep want within Premils to inherit a new glorified earth, but that reality only happens in locating Revelation 20 correctly. It only happens in the Amil position.

When you push Premils they cannot show you any evidence in Revelation 20 of a perfected new arrangement.

Why will they not talk about the billions of millennial phonies (as the sand of the sea) who rebel against Christ at the end of their millennium? Why will they not accept the contradiction of their position that this company is grossly self-deceived, feigning worship to Christ throughout the duration of their millennium?

This scenario does not add up. It will not happen in the future. It is happening now before our eyes.

The antidote to this great dilemma is accept what the Bible says, and see that Jesus comes to rescue all His elect, destroy all the wicked, and glorify this whole universe, bringing it back to its intended perfect state. Corruption and the corruptible cannot inherit the earth to come, that is because it is an incorruptible environment. Only the glorified redeemed are qualified to live there. The good news is: this state will last forever.

 

[oikonomia]

I am done talking to you. I am not going to give this credence.

You should give credence to your own integrity by proving I added to the text of Revelation 20
or retracting the false charge.

 

[WilliamLhk]

We need to take an open, objective, and thorough look at this passage and let it speak for itself. We need to look at the context, identify what is happening, and then put the theological jigsaw pieces together. We need to be careful to refuse any interpretation that has been contrived of man, and foisted upon this text, to reinforce a faulty, preconceived, and prejudiced end-times viewpoint.

The context of this teaching is clearly the aftermath of Christ’s successful earthly life, His atoning death, His victorious resurrection and His glorious ascent to assume His heavenly throne. This all occurred 2000 years ago.

I got this far in your post, and saw no reason to read any further. Because your second paragraph is completely contradictory to your statements in the first paragraph, beginning with :

"We need to take an open, objective, and thorough look at this passage and let it speak for itself."

And then you proceed to make an unobjective and thorughly presumptive interpretation of the context.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I got this far in your post, and saw no reason to read any further. Because your second paragraph is completely contradictory to your statements in the first paragraph, beginning with :

"We need to take an open, objective, and thorough look at this passage and let it speak for itself."

And then you proceed to make an unobjective and thorughly presumptive interpretation of the context.

How about showing me what is in error.

 

[WilliamLhk]

How about showing me what is in error.

I did; here it is again:

"The context of this teaching is clearly the aftermath of Christ’s successful earthly life, His atoning death, His victorious resurrection and His glorious ascent to assume His heavenly throne. This all occurred 2000 years ago."

This statement is only your presumption, not an established fact.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I did; here it is again:

"The context of this teaching is clearly the aftermath of Christ’s successful earthly life, His atoning death, His victorious resurrection and His glorious ascent to assume His heavenly throne. This all occurred 2000 years ago."

This statement is only your presumption, not an established fact.

Totally disagree. Just saying this means nothing. Show me why i am supposedly wrong.

 

[Timtofly]

I agree that the full restoration occurs at the second coming, but Revelation 20 does not show that. It depicts a corrupt state that sees the wicked grow to the sand of the sea and then overrun the millennial state. Premillennialists want Revelation 20 to teach a period of perfect bliss, but it is full of sin, death, and corruption like our age. That is because it relates to this age. It has been ongoing since the first resurrection.

You keep saying the day of the Lord is a literal 1,000-year period of time following the second coming, but neither 2 Peter 3, Revelation 20 nor any other biblical passages teach that. I cannot quote anything because it is your own theory. If you had it, you would have quoted it by now.

Revelation 20 does not depict life at all other than those at the start rule and reign with Christ. Revelation 20 does not even talk about birth nor death. John writes about just prior to the Day of the Lord, and the season after the Day of the Lord. You add to Scripture when you state:

It depicts a corrupt state that sees the wicked grow to the sand of the sea and then overrun the millennial state.

Premil don't want Revelation 20 to say anything. That is also a false presumption on your point.

The only thing Revelation 20 tells us is the length of the Day of the Lord. Revelation 20 is the literal mention of the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord has to happen prior to the NHNE. The Day of the Lord has not happened yet.

 

[Timtofly]

Premils

I see more and more Premillennialists gravity toward the idea that the earth to come at the second coming is going to be perfect, glorious and regenerated. Of course, this is classic Amillennialism. The only problem is, when you read Revelation 20, you discover that it is far from that. In fact, the millennial earth is overrun by the wicked and wickedness at the end - "as the sand of the sea" (Revelation 20:8). This is not a picture of what perfection looks like. This is not the new heavens and new earth, where the curse is eternally lifted, and the lamb will finally have perfect communion with lion. The millennium is infested with all the same blight of corruption as we endure now – sin, death, decay, and wickedness. It becomes a global war-zone - from "the four quarters of the earth" (Revelation 20:8). This parallels our day. That is because, Revelation 20 relates to the intra-Advent, the time that we are in now between the first and second coming.

I understand the deep want within Premils to inherit a new glorified earth, but that reality only happens in locating Revelation 20 correctly. It only happens in the Amil position.

When you push Premils they cannot show you any evidence in Revelation 20 of a perfected new arrangement.

Why will they not talk about the billions of millennial phonies (as the sand of the sea) who rebel against Christ at the end of their millennium? Why will they not accept the contradiction of their position that this company is grossly self-deceived, feigning worship to Christ throughout the duration of their millennium?

This scenario does not add up. It will not happen in the future. It is happening now before our eyes.

The antidote to this great dilemma is accept what the Bible says, and see that Jesus comes to rescue all His elect, destroy all the wicked, and glorify this whole universe, bringing it back to its intended perfect state. Corruption and the corruptible cannot inherit the earth to come, that is because it is an incorruptible environment. Only the glorified redeemed are qualified to live there. The good news is: this state will last forever.

And you failed to prove even a billion soul army could exist tomorrow, much less billions of humans suddenly turned into "satanist zombies", as you put it.

 

[sovereigngrace]

And you failed to prove even a billion soul army could exist tomorrow, much less billions of humans suddenly turned into "satanist zombies", as you put it.

I know it is the very uncomfortable issue that Premils do not want to talk about, but, who are these billions of wicked who flood your millennium as the sand of the sea?

 

[oikonomia]

Who cares about Satan deceiving a great number of people at the end of 1,000 year?
They are totally and completely vanquished.

And they went up upon the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; and fire came down out of heaven and devoured them.

And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:9,10)

Sovreigngrace is upset because we don't talk and talk about it.
A silly complaint - Ie. "You have to talk and talk and talk about that."
The last deception on earth is crushed unsuccessful. That's all we need to talk about.

And after 1,000 years Antichrist and his false prophet are finally joined by their leader Satan.
. . . the devil, . . . cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented. . .
It is understandable that Satan want's to ridicule and obscure his final defeat.

 

[oikonomia]

Sovereigngrace's insistence that the millennium has within in its conclusion one more
last rebellion invalidats a restoration is simply his own unbelief of God's word.

And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison
And will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth,
Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. Their number is like that of the sand of the sea. (Rev. 20:7,8)

 

[oikonomia]

So we've seen this debater strut around like celebrity prize fighter claiming no one can
defeat him. And if holes in his boast are pointed out he falls back on those being ad homs.