Free Will Doesn't Seem To Be Very Successful . . .

[Oneofhope]

We are sinful disobedient cruel kidnappers, keep a child of God away from God and His Kingdom, but as kidnappers, we can selfishly decide to accept the undeserving huge ransom payment (Jesus Christ and Him crucified) and allow the child to go free. Is a Kidnapper accepting an undeserved ransom payment doing something righteous?

Thank you so much for sharing! In the quote above . . . I assume that you are talking about yourself and the people you know? I'm confused. What you have offered above certainly isn't a description of myself. I don't quite get it . . . but then again, we're trying to communicate through short little messages within a box.

Does a kidnapper who accepts undeserved ransom money accomplish something Righteous and Holy? I think that 100% of all people would say no to that. Again, and it's probably me . . . but I don't understand these things nor relate to them.

 

[bling]

Thank you so much for sharing! In the quote above . . . I assume that you are talking about yourself and the people you know? I'm confused. What you have offered above certainly isn't a description of myself. I don't quite get it . . . but then again, we're trying to communicate through short little messages within a box.

Does a kidnapper who accepts undeserved ransom money accomplish something Righteous and Holy? I think that 100% of all people would say no to that. Again, and it's probably me . . . but I don't understand these things nor relate to them.

When you go up to a nonbelieving sinner, what are you trying to get him/her to accept? Is it a particular Bible translation, to go to a particular church (your church), to believe a particular set of believes or are you trying to get him/her to humbly accept, "Jesus Christ and Him crucified"?
If the sinner accepts Jesus Christ and Him Crucified will a Child be released and thus allowed to enter the Kingdom to be with his/her Father?

Yet, if the unbeliever refuses to accept Jesus Christ and Him Crucified, a child of God remains held out of the Kingdom and way from his/her Father.

Jesus Christ and Him Crucified is described by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the writer of Hebrews as a actual ransom payment. The unbelieving sinner hold a child out of the Kingdom describes a kind kidnapper and the Child of God in and not "like a ransom payment) the Kingdom is what the sinner kidnapper can become.
Where you once a sinner outside of the Kingdom, so what was holding you back?
As Peter said the ransom payment is not silver and gold, but much greater.

 

[Oneofhope]

When you go up to a nonbelieving sinner, what are you trying to get him/her to accept? Is it a particular Bible translation, to go to a particular church (your church), to believe a particular set of believes or are you trying to get him/her to humbly accept, "Jesus Christ and Him crucified"?
If the sinner accepts Jesus Christ and Him Crucified will a Child be released and thus allowed to enter the Kingdom to be with his/her Father?

Yet, if the unbeliever refuses to accept Jesus Christ and Him Crucified, a child of God remains held out of the Kingdom and way from his/her Father.

Jesus Christ and Him Crucified is described by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the writer of Hebrews as a actual ransom payment. The unbelieving sinner hold a child out of the Kingdom describes a kind kidnapper and the Child of God in and not "like a ransom payment) the Kingdom is what the sinner kidnapper can become.
Where you once a sinner outside of the Kingdom, so what was holding you back?
As Peter said the ransom payment is not silver and gold, but much greater.

Thank you so much for sharing, but I have to be honest, I haven't a clue as to what this has to do with the OP.

Next is the clear evidence that the entire Nation of Israel, except the ones God chose, He the Lord hardened their hearts. Paul states that even during the day of his writing, the situation hadn't changed . . . the Nation was placed into a Spiritual slumber and there wasn't/isn't anything that can be done about it. There is a Plan, an Eternal Plan, and God is following it perfectly, without fault. Paul talks about this Plan in Ephesians 1 and 3.

Below, how is God not controlling the minds of the Israelite Nation? The principle is all throughout the Bible.

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - 7 So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. 8 As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

 

[BobRyan]

Hi friend, Look at the verse below you quoted. Does Jesus say that he wouldn't lose any?

It is the will of God that he should not lose even one. That is God's desire, but that is not always the reality.

good point. And you illustrated your point well with your reference below to 2 Pet 3:9

Look at 2Pet.3:9 "The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance". Is all of mankind going to be saved? No.

And there you have it.

 

[BobRyan]

When you go up to a nonbelieving sinner, what are you trying to get him/her to accept? Is it a particular Bible translation, to go to a particular church (your church), to believe a particular set of believes or are you trying to get him/her to humbly accept, "Jesus Christ and Him crucified"?

Normally when people read their Bible's and fellowship together in a local congregation - they are doing so because they "accept Jesus Christ and Him Crucified".

It is very hard to find Christians who would say "I read the Bible as being the Word of God , and fellowship with a body of believers in Jesus Christ - because I don't want to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified"

If the sinner accepts Jesus Christ and Him Crucified will a Child be released and thus allowed to enter the Kingdom to be with his/her Father?

No Doubt.

And will they embrace Jesus who "is the Way, the TRUTH and the Life"? John 14 -- we think they will.
And will they be among those in 2 Thess 2 who "perish because they did not receive a love of the Truth so as to be saved" - we pray they will not.

Yet, if the unbeliever refuses to accept Jesus Christ and Him Crucified

they they remain in their lost condition --

 

[Clare73]

Free will is kind of a useless thing if you cannot do not have the power or authority to effect the will you have.

We don't have "free will" anyway, we are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34, Ro 7:25, 11:32, Gal 3:22).

 

[Oneofhope]

We don't have "free will" anyway, we are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34, Ro 7:25, 11:32, Gal 3:22).

Scripture is PERFECTLY clear: We are either controlled by a Sinful Nature, or the Holy Spirit. We possess either a Sinful Nature or the Divine Nature.

Then again, the modern-day church doesn't even understand, nor teach, the problem that humanity faces. If the church doesn't know what the problem is, they won't understand why we need a Redeemer. If the church doesn't understand these things, it couldn't possibly understand the Effect of Christ's Holy Work, the Purpose for which He was sent to Earth.

 

[bling]

Thank you so much for sharing, but I have to be honest, I haven't a clue as to what this has to do with the OP.

You quoted Romans in the OP: "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. 12 All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."

I actually agree with you, but can an unbelieving sinner make a free will choice to selfishly do one sin instead of another sin or is God forcing the sinner to make a sin choice?

The choice is not to follow God or follow satan, since choosing to follow God would be honorable, noble, worthy of something, righteous and holy, which a sinner cannot make, yet he/she can make free will choices.

The “choice” the sinner is make is between: being macho, hanging in there as a good soldier, taking the punishment he fully deserves, not pestering his father with further undeserving requests or wimping out, giving up on self, and surrendering to his hated enemy, just being humbly willing to accept undeserved pure charity as charity and all for selfish reasons (sinful reasons). Another way to talk about it is to realize as sinners we hold a child of God outside of the Kingdom away from his Father, we are kidnappers in that respect. God is offering His crucified son as an unbelievable huge ransom payment (the way the Bible describes it). The sinner (kidnapper) can either accept or reject this ransom payment, but as you pointed out, accepting the payment is not an honorable righteous act since we totally do not deserve it and were criminal in our behavior to get it.

Next is the clear evidence that the entire Nation of Israel, except the ones God chose, He the Lord hardened their hearts. Paul states that even during the day of his writing, the situation hadn't changed . . . the Nation was placed into a Spiritual slumber and there wasn't/isn't anything that can be done about it. There is a Plan, an Eternal Plan, and God is following it perfectly, without fault. Paul talks about this Plan in Ephesians 1 and 3.

God would have decided before time began, He would help those who were willing to accept His help, but there would be few who would accept (it takes surrendering to an enemy).

Below, how is God not controlling the minds of the Israelite Nation? The principle is all throughout the Bible.

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - 7 So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. 8 As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

What you first have to realize is: The exact same thing that can harden one person’s heart, can soften another person’s heart.

You have to keep these verses in context since Paul will explain right after: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!... 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them….23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. …26…Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

Ro. 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Sin actually has purpose in helping willing individuals in the fulfillment of their earthly object, accepting God’s mercy (Love, charity, forgiveness). But that does not mean “all” will humbly accept God’s charity/mercy/Love/forgiveness.

Lots of people will be lost, but can we blame free will? The large number lost is understandable with free will, but why would anyone be lost if there was no free will?

 

[Oneofhope]

You quoted Romans in the OP: "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. 12 All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."

I actually agree with you, but can an unbelieving sinner make a free will choice to selfishly do one sin instead of another sin or is God forcing the sinner to make a sin choice?

The choice is not to follow God or follow satan, since choosing to follow God would be honorable, noble, worthy of something, righteous and holy, which a sinner cannot make, yet he/she can make free will choices.

The “choice” the sinner is make is between: being macho, hanging in there as a good soldier, taking the punishment he fully deserves, not pestering his father with further undeserving requests or wimping out, giving up on self, and surrendering to his hated enemy, just being humbly willing to accept undeserved pure charity as charity and all for selfish reasons (sinful reasons). Another way to talk about it is to realize as sinners we hold a child of God outside of the Kingdom away from his Father, we are kidnappers in that respect. God is offering His crucified son as an unbelievable huge ransom payment (the way the Bible describes it). The sinner (kidnapper) can either accept or reject this ransom payment, but as you pointed out, accepting the payment is not an honorable righteous act since we totally do not deserve it and were criminal in our behavior to get it.

God would have decided before time began, He would help those who were willing to accept His help, but there would be few who would accept (it takes surrendering to an enemy).

What you first have to realize is: The exact same thing that can harden one person’s heart, can soften another person’s heart.

You have to keep these verses in context since Paul will explain right after: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!... 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them….23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. …26…Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

Ro. 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Sin actually has purpose in helping willing individuals in the fulfillment of their earthly object, accepting God’s mercy (Love, charity, forgiveness). But that does not mean “all” will humbly accept God’s charity/mercy/Love/forgiveness.

Lots of people will be lost, but can we blame free will? The large number lost is understandable with free will, but why would anyone be lost if there was no free will?

Thank you for sharing, again.

There is a lot up there to respond to . . . man, I could literally write 10 to 15 pages of material. And honestly, I'm not sure where to even begin.

 

[Oneofhope]

I actually agree with you, but can an unbelieving sinner make a free will choice to selfishly do one sin instead of another sin or is God forcing the sinner to make a sin choice?

Hola . . .

In the midst of my continual Bible study tonight, I was reminded of a passage that may or may not address what you wrote above. This is a critical, keystone passage, as it demonstrates the reality of our entire history, which is that God has an Eternal Plan for the entire earth (and all its inhabitants).

Acts 2:23 NLT - "But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him."

John MacArthur, in his introduction to Acts, says that every action and thought of all involved were determined by the Lord. Perhaps we can see why Jesus taught us to pray that God would not lead us into temptation.

Hosea was instructed to marry a prostitute. Seems like adultery to me.
God removed His Good Spirit from king Saul and gave him an evil Spirit in replacement. This replacement of thought control caused Saul to want to murder David . . . repeatedly. Murder . . . definitely sin.
Shimei . . . David clearly stated that God told him, Shimei, to curse David, cast stones and dirt at David and his military men. David said that because God was making him do it, it may be a reward in his afterlife. Of course, David was giving us a preview of Christ's remarkable behavior. Shimei's behavior warranted death according to God's Law, yet the Lord was in control of his mind to say and act as he did.

This is what I am talking about: These stories and the things that I am pointing out . . . these things are the backbone of Scripture. These are the things we're supposed to be considering and figuring out. Below are the four most important concepts to study, and know:

1) Power of God
2) The Purpose of Christ
3) The Work of Christ
4) The Effect of Christ

If we would study the Bible according to those four points above, and learn the Bible in a timeline, chronological order, the very Bible they have in their hands will seem like a completely different Book.

 

[bling]

Hola . . .

In the midst of my continual Bible study tonight, I was reminded of a passage that may or may not address what you wrote above. This is a critical, keystone passage, as it demonstrates the reality of our entire history, which is that God has an Eternal Plan for the entire earth (and all its inhabitants).

Acts 2:23 NLT - "But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him."

John MacArthur, in his introduction to Acts, says that every action and thought of all involved were determined by the Lord. Perhaps we can see why Jesus taught us to pray that God would not lead us into temptation.

Hosea was instructed to marry a prostitute. Seems like adultery to me.
God removed His Good Spirit from king Saul and gave him an evil Spirit in replacement. This replacement of thought control caused Saul to want to murder David . . . repeatedly. Murder . . . definitely sin.
Shimei . . . David clearly stated that God told him, Shimei, to curse David, cast stones and dirt at David and his military men. David said that because God was making him do it, it may be a reward in his afterlife. Of course, David was giving us a preview of Christ's remarkable behavior. Shimei's behavior warranted death according to God's Law, yet the Lord was in control of his mind to say and act as he did.

This is what I am talking about: These stories and the things that I am pointing out . . . these things are the backbone of Scripture. These are the things we're supposed to be considering and figuring out. Below are the four most important concepts to study, and know:

1) Power of God
2) The Purpose of Christ
3) The Work of Christ
4) The Effect of Christ

If we would study the Bible according to those four points above, and learn the Bible in a timeline, chronological order, the very Bible they have in their hands will seem like a completely different Book.

I am not saying, "God does not fully control some things and God does not foreordain some things. God can also take total control over individuals who have reached the point of no return, they are truly hell bound and thus no longer need free will. Humans have very little free will to just make some choices and it can be taken from them afterwards, but some free will choices have to be made, they are needed to fulfill their earthly objective.

 

[Oneofhope]

I am not saying, "God does not fully control some things and God does not foreordain some things. God can also take total control over individuals who have reached the point of no return, they are truly hell bound and thus no longer need free will. Humans have very little free will to just make some choices and it can be taken from them afterwards, but some free will choices have to be made, they are needed to fulfill their earthly objective.

I gotta tell you, I can't stand trying to communicate through these text boxes. It is extremely difficult and frustrating.

One of the questions that I've been wanting to ask for some time is: How do you define free will? I've been meaning to suggest that we all have the same definition of what it is, for if we did, we might have more success at agreeing as Brothers and Sisters in Christ are intended.

After that, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the below Scripture:

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. 8 As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

The above references the entire Jewish Nation. I don't care if its an entire Nation or one person . . . the Scriptures are clear that God is responsible for the way the Blessed Jew were thinking. Yes, what I am saying is that the existence of the Jews in their attitudes and behaviors were not of their own accord. They were not only under the Adamic Curse, which includes the Sinful Nature, but they were placed into this Spiritual Sleep as well. Man, how could they ever recover without God? But what is clear is that Spiritual Sleep is means straight up mind control.

This is a great topic. I love it, it is so important . . . and I am extremely grateful for the opportunity to share with all of you. So grateful.

 

[bling]

Normally when people read their Bible's and fellowship together in a local congregation - they are doing so because they "accept Jesus Christ and Him Crucified".

It is very hard to find Christians who would say "I read the Bible as being the Word of God , and fellowship with a body of believers in Jesus Christ - because I don't want to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified"

I am not talking about Christians but non-Christians, who have not accepted Jesus Christ and Him Crucified.
When you go up to these non-Christian unbelieving sinners what are you first needing them to accept? What did those first three thousand Christians on Pentecost need to accept? If they just believe in Jesus Christ (the Christ being the Messiah) and that they crucified the Messiah, they will do anything Peter asks of them to possibly be forgiven. We need to make disciple of the people we teach, but first they need to accept the ransom payment (Jesus Christ and Him crucified).

No Doubt.

And will they embrace Jesus who "is the Way, the TRUTH and the Life"? John 14 -- we think they will.
And will they be among those in 2 Thess 2 who "perish because they did not receive a love of the Truth so as to be saved" - we pray they will not.

they they remain in their lost condition --

Do you see the initial choices as being accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ and Him crucified?

 

[BobRyan]

When you go up to a nonbelieving sinner, what are you trying to get him/her to accept? Is it a particular Bible translation, to go to a particular church (your church), to believe a particular set of believes or are you trying to get him/her to humbly accept, "Jesus Christ and Him crucified"?

Normally when people read their Bible's and fellowship together in a local congregation - they are doing so because they "accept Jesus Christ and Him Crucified".

It is very hard to find Christians who would say "I read the Bible as being the Word of God , and fellowship with a body of believers in Jesus Christ - because I don't want to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified"

I am not talking about Christians but non-Christians, who have not accepted Jesus Christ and Him Crucified.

Yes - your scenario above is that when "we" as Christians go to a non-Christian -- the question is what are we trying to get the non-Christian to accept.

When you go up to these non-Christian unbelieving sinners what are you first needing them to accept? What did those first three thousand Christians on Pentecost need to accept? If they just believe in Jesus Christ (the Christ being the Messiah) and that they crucified the Messiah, they will do anything Peter asks of them to possibly be forgiven.

Agreed - and many of the people being evangelized in Acts 2 - were people that had Bibles, people that had read the word of God and knew about God's commands, His righteousness, His dealings with mankind throughout history etc. So the next thing for them was to accept that the carpenter from Nazareth was in fact the long promised Messiah of scripture.

Many gentiles by contrast had no clue that the scriptures had predicted any sort of Messiah at all.

We need to make disciple of the people we teach, but first they need to accept the ransom payment (Jesus Christ and Him crucified).

Amen. They must accept Christ, accept the Gospel - accept the "dying to self" crucified with Christ , no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me.

But nobody will take such extreme "chemotherapy" unless they are first very convinced that they have terminal form of cancer.

And that means that first they must understand that they are sinners in desperate need of the salvation.

And that means they must first know what sin is - according to the Word of God, that according to scripture God condemns sin, that God will judge and punish all wrong in addition to saving those who accept the Gospel.

And that means they must first accept that scripture is God's Word

And that means they must first accept - "who is" the one true God.

You and I already know all of this so it is easy to say that we will jump right into the point where we say "Jesus is the Messiah" but for many people, they do not know the parts that lead up to that statement

 

[bling]

I gotta tell you, I can't stand trying to communicate through these text boxes. It is extremely difficult and frustrating.

One of the questions that I've been wanting to ask for some time is: How do you define free will? I've been meaning to suggest that we all have the same definition of what it is, for if we did, we might have more success at agreeing as Brothers and Sisters in Christ are intended.

Human free will is a miraculous gift from God to all mature humans, animals do not have free will and their choices are the result of instinct and environment, but humans have within them (made in God’s image) some limited ability to truly make some choices that are solely their choices. These choices are mental choices and may not actually happen and God might keep them from happening, but they are still human free will choices. All of these free will choices are allowed and limited by God, so humans can fulfill their earthly objective, but if a human decides to the point God knows for certain they would never accept His Love as charity, their free will can be taken from them. God has made a free will choice to Love humans, but this has nothing to do with what humans did, are doing or will do, but because God made the choice to Love, in spite of the way humans are. For us to obtain and use this type of Love, we have to have free will in this area. Godly type Love goes beyond logic, instinct, coercion, ability to learn or our ever being able to pay back.

After that, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the below Scripture:

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. 8 As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

The above references the entire Jewish Nation. I don't care if its an entire Nation or one person . . . the Scriptures are clear that God is responsible for the way the Blessed Jew were thinking. Yes, what I am saying is that the existence of the Jews in their attitudes and behaviors were not of their own accord. They were not only under the Adamic Curse, which includes the Sinful Nature, but they were placed into this Spiritual Sleep as well. Man, how could they ever recover without God? But what is clear is that Spiritual Sleep is means straight up mind control.

This is a great topic. I love it, it is so important . . . and I am extremely grateful for the opportunity to share with all of you. So grateful.

You seem to be making the assumption that this sleep and hardening is permanent and all God’s fault.

Paul empathizes: “to this day” so that does not mean this hardening and sleep has to go on forever. Paul goes on to show this to be a temporary situation, which I pointed out in my post 28: You have to keep these verses in context since Paul will explain right after: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!... 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them….23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. …26…Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

The Jewish Christians in Rome are having a really hard time accepting the Gentile Christians without them first becoming Jews and all the other Jews hate the Gentiles. Yet, some Jews in Rome did figure out what God was doing and have accepted the Gentiles and these are “God’s chosen”, because they did accept without further help. That further help actually comes with the hardening of these other Jew’s hearts. Paul with miraculous knowledge of Jesus’ prophecies about the destruction of the temple, would realize how that will impact many Jews to seek help from Gentile Christians who are very willing to help them, in spite of the fact the Jews hate gentiles. It actually becomes an almost unbelievable Loving help that Gentiles would be offering to help Jews, so their hard hearts would actually help them to see Godly type Love in these Christian Gentiles (this is obviously, “Love your enemy” Love). Yet even with this offer of help some Jews might be so hardened as to blame God for the destruction of the temple, but that was not God’s intent in hardening them.

 

[bling]

Normally when people read their Bible's and fellowship together in a local congregation - they are doing so because they "accept Jesus Christ and Him Crucified".

It is very hard to find Christians who would say "I read the Bible as being the Word of God , and fellowship with a body of believers in Jesus Christ - because I don't want to accept Jesus Christ and Him crucified"


Yes - your scenario above is that when "we" as Christians go to a non-Christian -- the question is what are we trying to get the non-Christian to accept.

Agreed - and many of the people being evangelized in Acts 2 - were people that had Bibles, people that had read the word of God and knew about God's commands, His righteousness, His dealings with mankind throughout history etc. So the next thing for them was to accept that the carpenter from Nazareth was in fact the long promised Messiah of scripture.

Many gentiles by contrast had no clue that the scriptures had predicted any sort of Messiah at all.

Amen. They must accept Christ, accept the Gospel - accept the "dying to self" crucified with Christ , no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me.

But nobody will take such extreme "chemotherapy" unless they are first very convinced that they have terminal form of cancer.

And that means that first they must understand that they are sinners in desperate need of the salvation.

And that means they must first know what sin is - according to the Word of God, that according to scripture God condemns sin, that God will judge and punish all wrong in addition to saving those who accept the Gospel.

And that means they must first accept that scripture is God's Word

And that means they must first accept - "who is" the one true God.

You and I already know all of this so it is easy to say that we will jump right into the point where we say "Jesus is the Messiah" but for many people, they do not know the parts that lead up to that statement

You know I am not in big time disagreement with you here, but part of understanding Christ Crucified is for the sinner you are teaching to realize that: his personal sins are the reason Christ had to go to the cross, he put Christ on the cross. If he had not sinned Christ would not have had to go to the cross for him. This can take some explaining, but at the huge tragedy of Christ going to the cross, there is the greatest Love being shown to the sinner.

 

[Clare73]

I gotta tell you, I can't stand trying to communicate through these text boxes. It is extremely difficult and frustrating.

One of the questions that I've been wanting to ask for some time is: How do you define free will? I've been meaning to suggest that we all have the same definition of what it is, for if we did, we might have more success at agreeing as Brothers and Sisters in Christ are intended.

Free will is a philosophical notion, not a Biblical notion. The Bible uses the term "voluntary."
Philosophically, free will is the power to make all moral choices.
Pelagius (British monk around 400 AD) asserted that man had a free will, on the assumption that the moral responsibility of man requires that man have a free will.
Biblically this is not so, for the Bible teaches that man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34), that it is only those whom the Son makes free that are free (Jn 8:36; cf Jn 8:32, Ro 6:18, 22, 8:12 Gal 5:1).
Free will (self-power) was lost in the fall when man's nature became corrupted, enslaving him to sin so that he cannot do the good (Ro 7:18-19, 8:7).
Free will means the freedom (power) to do the good; I.e., obey God (Mk 12:29-31), to be sinless, as Adam had.
Man no longer has that power (Jn 15:5, Ro 5:6, 7:18, 8:7-8), which is the meaning of the "depravity" of man.

After that, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the below Scripture:

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. 8 As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."
The above references the entire Jewish Nation. I don't care if its an entire Nation or one person . . . the Scriptures are clear that God is responsible for the way the Blessed Jew were thinking. Yes, what I am saying is that the existence of the Jews in their attitudes and behaviors were not of their own accord. They were not only under the Adamic Curse, which includes the Sinful Nature, but they were placed into this Spiritual Sleep as well. Man, how could they ever recover without God? But what is clear is that Spiritual Sleep is means straight up mind control.

Keeping in mind that the spirit of slumber was God's judgment on their sin of their own accord, refusing on their own accord to see and refusing to hear the gospel, they being responsible for the sin of their fallen nature, just as we are when we lie, cheat and steal.
God punishes sin with like sin (Ro 1:22-28).

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Romans 3:10-12 NLT - "As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. 12 All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."

Being controlled by the Spirit, is the most Gracious thing God can do for us. On our own, it seems that we're in big trouble.

John 6:44 LSB - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

We are guilded not controlled. Free will is still at play here. It is delicate, free will, so we must recognize His power. His Holy Spirit, is only as good as our humbleness which is harnessed in LOVE. This is the Armour of God and many quench Him.
Blessings.

 

[Matt5]

Romans 3:10-12 NLT - "As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. 12 All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."

Being controlled by the Spirit, is the most Gracious thing God can do for us. On our own, it seems that we're in big trouble.

John 6:44 LSB - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

So the Bible is trashing me because I can't see into the future perfectly in order to make perfect decisions. Shouldn't the Bible take that up with the designer/creator?

Will you accept guidance by the Holy Spirit, given that you can't see into the future perfectly?

What if he isn't talking?

 

[BobRyan]

So the Bible is trashing me because I can't see into the future perfectly in order to make perfect decisions. Shouldn't the Bible take that up with the designer/creator?

Will you accept guidance by the Holy Spirit, given that you can't see into the future perfectly?

What if he isn't talking?

"all scripture is given by inspiration from God" 2 Tim 3:16.
So that is the Holy Spirit talking --- in scripture.

If you can read - then you have a huge avenue for hearing the Holy Spirit's message to you