Free Will Doesn't Seem To Be Very Successful . . .

[Oneofhope]

Scripture is clear that God judged their already hard, unbelieving-in-their-Messiah hearts with even more hardness and unbelief, judging sin with more sin.
Scripture is clear that they are under God's judgment because of their sin of unbelief and rejection of their own Messiah (Ro 11:17).

Keeping in mind that love rejoices with the truth (God's word; I.e., Ro 11:17, 23, "IF"--not 'when'--they do not persist in unbelief") rather than agreement with untruth.

Thank you Clare!

We're not talking about Judgment. We're talking about people having their free will violated. God boldly takes responsibility for causing Spiritual blindness. The Eternal Plan, however, shows that God will remove their Spiritual blindness.

Gotta stick to the OP!

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I'm reading the NLT and KJV as the same. Are you aware that we are talking about the core of the Bible?

2 Timothy 2:25-26 NLT - 25 Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.

Do you relate to the above Scripture? Have you been released from the captivity of the Devil? Anyone who has been released from prison, knows it. Conclusively. Do you remember being taken from the captivity of Satan and being brought into the captivity of God?

2 Corinthians 2:14 NLT - 14 But thank God! He has made us his captives and continues to lead us along in Christ's triumphal procession. Now he uses us to spread the knowledge of Christ everywhere, like a sweet perfume."

If you don't relate to the above Scriptures . . . I am so sorry.

They are not the same. One says " controlled " the other says " dwell in you".

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I'm reading the NLT and KJV as the same. Are you aware that we are talking about the core of the Bible?

2 Timothy 2:25-26 NLT - 25 Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.

Do you relate to the above Scripture? Have you been released from the captivity of the Devil? Anyone who has been released from prison, knows it. Conclusively. Do you remember being taken from the captivity of Satan and being brought into the captivity of God?

2 Corinthians 2:14 NLT - 14 But thank God! He has made us his captives and continues to lead us along in Christ's triumphal procession. Now he uses us to spread the knowledge of Christ everywhere, like a sweet perfume."

If you don't relate to the above Scriptures . . . I am so sorry.

Jesus Christ of Nazareth said what His Holy Spirit will do for us and it has nothing to do with control.
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you” (John 14:26, KJV).

 

[Clare73]

Thank you Clare!

We're not talking about Judgment. We're talking about people having their free will violated. God boldly takes responsibility for causing Spiritual blindness. The Eternal Plan, however, shows that God will remove their Spiritual blindness.

Gotta stick to the OP!

Is free will in the OP?

 

[Oneofhope]

They are not the same. One says " controlled " the other says " dwell in you".

They are not the same. One says " controlled " the other says " dwell in you".

Do you relate to the Scriptures that I sent to you? Have you been released from the captivity of the Devil? Have you been set free?

Isn't this what the Bible is about?

 

[Oneofhope]

Jesus Christ of Nazareth said what His Holy Spirit will do for us and it has nothing to do with control.
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you” (John 14:26, KJV).

Do you agree that Paul was controlled by the Sinful Nature? If so, how was he able to Transform as described in Romans 12:2?

 

[Oneofhope]

Free will in the OP?

Mmmm hmmm. That's what this thread is about.

 

[Clare73]

Mmmm hmmm. That's what this thread is about.

But where do we find "free will" in the Bible?

 

[Oneofhope]

Isaiah 19:14-15 NLT - "The LORD has sent a spirit of foolishness on them, so all their suggestions are wrong. They cause Egypt to stagger like a drunk in his vomit. There is nothing Egypt can do. All are helpless--the head and the tail, the noble palm branch and the lowly reed."

Free will . . . completely violated.

 

[Clare73]

Isaiah 19:14-15 NLT - "The LORD has sent a spirit of foolishness on them, so all their suggestions are wrong. They cause Egypt to stagger like a drunk in his vomit. There is nothing Egypt can do. All are helpless--the head and the tail, the noble palm branch and the lowly reed."

Free will . . . completely violated.

Where do we find "free will" in the Bible?
We find that man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34, Ro 7:25, 11:32, Gal 3:22), and slaves are not free.

 

[Oneofhope]

But where do we find "free will" in the Bible?
For we are not free, we are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34, Ro 7:25, 11:32, Gal 3:22).

God does not violate "free will" when he judges (punishes) hardened hearts with further hardening.
He just gives them more of what they prefer and have chosen; i.e., unbelief of blindness and deafness.

Clare . . . there are far more passages in the Bible that I would use to prove humans have free will than are there passages that prove otherwise. Gotta realize that what we are talking about is one of the ways that the Lord has kept His unbelievable Plan a hidden secret. There are many ways that God has kept His Plan hidden, including the restriction of peoples minds to understand. Speech is another one of those methods.

 

[Clare73]

Clare . . . there are far more passages in the Bible that I would use to prove humans have free will than are there passages that prove otherwise.

The problem is the Bible does not contradict itself.
If we think the Bible both teaches human free will and denies free will, then our understanding of it all is incorrect.

 

[Oneofhope]

The problem is the Bible does not contradict itself.
If we think the Bible both teaches human free will and denies free will, then our understanding of it all is incorrect.

Right!!!! That's exactly it! How do we harmonize both concepts?

I love it when Christians agree.

 

[Oneofhope]

The problem is the Bible does not contradict itself.
If we think the Bible both teaches human free will and denies free will, then our understanding of it all is incorrect.

In fact, I would go on to say that whichever side of Free Will is accurate, the inaccurate side is be leaving a false gospel. And that's a serious problem.

 

[Fervent]

First, it is against the context of the entire Bible. Have you studied the entire Bible looking to answer this question of free will? Word for word? Phrase by phrase? If not, you really can't offer an opinion. This would be like someone reading half the book of "Tom Sawyer" and claiming to understand what it is about.

It's not, it's only when passages are ripped out as proof texts that they may be forced into support of being against free will. For example, the passage you quoted in the OP has nothing to do with free will or a lack thereof, it was addressing Jewish complaints that God wasn't punishing the gentiles for their crimes against Israel.

 

[Oneofhope]

It's not, it's only when passages are ripped out as proof texts that they may be forced into support of being against free will. For example, the passage you quoted in the OP has nothing to do with free will or a lack thereof, it was addressing Jewish complaints that God wasn't punishing the gentiles for their crimes against Israel.

I wrote in the OP the following:

Romans 3:10-12 NLT - "As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. 12 All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."

Being controlled by the Spirit, is the most Gracious thing God can do for us. On our own, it seems that we're in big trouble."

What's the big deal? What have I RIPPED OUT as proof texts? The point I have made is easily understandable by a 5-year-old.

 

[Fervent]

I wrote in the OP the following:

Romans 3:10-12 NLT - "As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. 12 All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."

Being controlled by the Spirit, is the most Gracious thing God can do for us. On our own, it seems that we're in big trouble."

What's the big deal? What have I RIPPED OUT as proof texts? The point I have made is easily understandable by a 5-year-old.

Romans 3:10-12 is completely out of context there, and has nothing to do with what you've written in addition to it.

 

[bling]

The length of duration that God controlled their range of thinking isn't the issue. The issue is that God controlled the scope and range of their thinking.

Free will = null and void. At least for those people and at that time.

There is a huge difference between not being given any time to recover and given enough time to recover before you die.

The taking away their free will for a while causing them to be severely disciplined and then allowing them to make a choice, is good to help them make the correct Choice as Paul describes at the end of Romans 11.

What about the group of people clearly defined below?

2 Timothy 2:25-26 NLT - "Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth. Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants."

First off let’s get the context: 2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Here Paul is talking about two groups of people: first group are described as being gold and silver vessels made for very special purposes and the other group of people are vessels of wood and clay made for a very common purpose, but look what Paul says further: 21 “Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work. The second group of vessels can cleanse themselves, so they are doing something good.

In verse 25 we are told to gently instruct refusers of the truth which seems to directly relate to God softening their hearts and learning the truth. This is like I have repeatedly said, “The same thing which can soften one person’s heart can harden another person’s heart.” Our hope is that the person we are presenting God’s truth to, will have their heart’s softened by God message, so it is only a perhaps and no certainty.

All of the humans held captive by Satan with the Purpose of their obeying him, how could they possibly have free will?

Like Adam and Eve we always try to blame someone else for our sins, so is it satan or is it us?

All mature adults start out being the slave of sin (satan’s servants), but we do have sometimes (not always) the free will choice to chose which sins we will do (even though we cannot keep from sinning in general). The fact that we free will chose to do a sin, holds us accountable to that sin. We can thus make a free will choice to selfishly (sinfully) accept pure undeserved charity as charity to get something like having a continued undeserved livable life from our hated enemy (God). It is selfish of us, but our just being willing, allows God to shower us with gifts.

It's so unbelievable that we have these conversations. lol This is stuff for kindergartners.

It is unbelievable we would blame God for people going to hell, as if it was God’s choice not to help them.

 

[Oneofhope]

Romans 3:10-12 is completely out of context there, and has nothing to do with what you've written in addition to it.

And unfortunately, you aren't understanding the point I'm making. Your not understanding my point doesn't make me wrong. It just means that you don't understand. Sorry, but it is what it is.

John 8:43-44 ESV - 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

So, go ahead and tell me why this passage set above shouldn't have the phrase, ". . . and your will is to do your father's desires."

The above is referring to a person who has not turned to Christ and are suffering from being under the control of a Sinful Nature. Are you going to say that the ESV is wrong?

 

[Oneofhope]

There is a huge difference between not being given any time to recover and given enough time to recover before you die.

The taking away their free will for a while causing them to be severely disciplined and then allowing them to make a choice, is good to help them make the correct Choice as Paul describes at the end of Romans 11.

First off let’s get the context: 2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Here Paul is talking about two groups of people: first group are described as being gold and silver vessels made for very special purposes and the other group of people are vessels of wood and clay made for a very common purpose, but look what Paul says further: 21 “Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work. The second group of vessels can cleanse themselves, so they are doing something good.

In verse 25 we are told to gently instruct refusers of the truth which seems to directly relate to God softening their hearts and learning the truth. This is like I have repeatedly said, “The same thing which can soften one person’s heart can harden another person’s heart.” Our hope is that the person we are presenting God’s truth to, will have their heart’s softened by God message, so it is only a perhaps and no certainty.

Like Adam and Eve we always try to blame someone else for our sins, so is it satan or is it us?

All mature adults start out being the slave of sin (satan’s servants), but we do have sometimes (not always) the free will choice to chose which sins we will do (even though we cannot keep from sinning in general). The fact that we free will chose to do a sin, holds us accountable to that sin. We can thus make a free will choice to selfishly (sinfully) accept pure undeserved charity as charity to get something like having a continued undeserved livable life from our hated enemy (God). It is selfish of us, but our just being willing, allows God to shower us with gifts.

It is unbelievable we would blame God for people going to hell, as if it was God’s choice not to help them.

Just curious about two things. Are you a Christian or do you follow another faith? I ask because I don't relate to what you're saying. It's like you're reading a different Bible.

Second, if you are a Christian, have you received the Spiritual Circumcision of Christ yet?