Free Will Doesn't Seem To Be Very Successful . . .

Oneofhope

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Romans 3:10-12 NLT - "As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. 12 All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."

Being controlled by the Spirit, is the most Gracious thing God can do for us. On our own, it seems that we're in big trouble.

John 6:44 LSB - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
 

fhansen

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Romans 3:10-12 NLT - "As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. 12 All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."

Being controlled by the Spirit, is the most Gracious thing God can do for us. On our own, it seems that we're in big trouble.

John 6:44 LSB - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
Drawing and compelling are two different things. We cannot come to Him unless He first comes to us; we cannot save ourselves. But we can still refuse to be saved.
 
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RandyPNW

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Romans 3:10-12 NLT - "As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. 12 All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."

Being controlled by the Spirit, is the most Gracious thing God can do for us. On our own, it seems that we're in big trouble.

John 6:44 LSB - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
With all due respect I think Paul's argument is not against Free Will or the lack thereof. Rather, it is an argument that we are all infected by Sin, which is a predisposition towards rebelling against God's Word. We tend towards Sin. We tend towards Rebellion. In fact, we are so predisposed to it that we *must* sin in some way all the time. Our spirits are born unclean, and so we must display contaminated waters.

None of this means, however, that we cannot do good, as well. When we let God's Word into our heart, by agreeing with His Word to our conscience, we can overcome the inclination to rebel. We can actually produce something by God's Word. It is the material coming from God's Word that allows us to channel it in order to produce that good through our works.

Therefore, we are not in a complete bondage to be despicably evil. Rather, we are unclean but can still do good by the grace of God's Word. It has always been available to Man since the moment he was 1st created.

Paul pulled an example out of Israel's history when those people who were called to be good had lost their light, and had lost their calling. Instead of following their God and their Law they rebelled and wanted to figure out their own way, apart from God's direction.

And so, they became despicable at some point, which makes it crystal clear that people, no matter how much we expect they will be good, really are full of potential to do the opposite. When people display their full potential for evil en mass, it becomes clear that they are all infected with the Sin disease, particularly when these people have been previously indoctrinated in all of the good truths of God's Word.

This is not saying that we must all do despicable evil until someone preaches the Gospel to us. God's Word has been with Man from the beginning, to enable all to do good so that all will be judged by what they choose to do, whether to go against their Sin nature or to agree with it.

However, in their ignorance many have committed despicable acts because they need to be made aware of what this "war" is. They don't understand their Sin compulsions, and are confused by the competing ideas. The Gospel helps people to know that there is a plan, and that they can find deliverance from their frustrations by choosing to commit to Christ, God's eternal Word.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Romans 3:10-12 NLT - "As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. 12 All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."

Being controlled by the Spirit, is the most Gracious thing God can do for us. On our own, it seems that we're in big trouble.

John 6:44 LSB - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
Free will is kind of a useless thing if you cannot do not have the power or authority to effect the will you have.

You have the freedom of will to change the moon into cheese... can you actually do it? No. So, all the free will in the universe will not enable you to do impossible things.

One impossible thing is to be as perfect as the Father in heaven. Try if you want... free will does not help.

Also, you do not have the power within yourself to change your nature. Either way, from evil to good or good to evil. That requires a miracle.

Jesus had to die and be resurrected from the dead to effect our change of nature from evil to divine. You cannot do that by your own will. He did it.

Ephesians 2:4-6 KJV
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


1 Peter 1:3 KJV
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
 
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Oneofhope

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Drawing and compelling are two different things. We cannot come to Him unless He first comes to us; we cannot save ourselves. But we can still refuse to be saved.

If that is true, how could Jesus say that He wouldn't lose any that the Father gave to Him?

John 6:39 NLT - "And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day."

How do you make sense of what you offered and the two passages from John that I have offered?
 
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Oneofhope

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With all due respect I think Paul's argument is not against Free Will or the lack thereof. Rather, it is an argument that we are all infected by Sin, which is a predisposition towards rebelling against God's Word. We tend towards Sin. We tend towards Rebellion. In fact, we are so predisposed to it that we *must* sin in some way all the time. Our spirits are born unclean, and so we must display contaminated waters.

None of this means, however, that we cannot do good, as well. When we let God's Word into our heart, by agreeing with His Word to our conscience, we can overcome the inclination to rebel. We can actually produce something by God's Word. It is the material coming from God's Word that allows us to channel it in order to produce that good through our works.

Therefore, we are not in a complete bondage to be despicably evil. Rather, we are unclean but can still do good by the grace of God's Word. It has always been available to Man since the moment he was 1st created.

Paul pulled an example out of Israel's history when those people who were called to be good had lost their light, and had lost their calling. Instead of following their God and their Law they rebelled and wanted to figure out their own way, apart from God's direction.

And so, they became despicable at some point, which makes it crystal clear that people, no matter how much we expect they will be good, really are full of potential to do the opposite. When people display their full potential for evil en mass, it becomes clear that they are all infected with the Sin disease, particularly when these people have been previously indoctrinated in all of the good truths of God's Word.

This is not saying that we must all do despicable evil until someone preaches the Gospel to us. God's Word has been with Man from the beginning, to enable all to do good so that all will be judged by what they choose to do, whether to go against their Sin nature or to agree with it.

However, in their ignorance many have committed despicable acts because they need to be made aware of what this "war" is. They don't understand their Sin compulsions, and are confused by the competing ideas. The Gospel helps people to know that there is a plan, and that they can find deliverance from their frustrations by choosing to commit to Christ, God's eternal Word.

Thank you, Randy. Nice to hear from you again. I must say, we have a massive gap of understanding between us. :)
 
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Oneofhope

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Free will is kind of a useless thing if you cannot do not have the power or authority to effect the will you have.

You have the freedom of will to change the moon into cheese... can you actually do it? No. So, all the free will in the universe will not enable you to do impossible things.

One impossible thing is to be as perfect as the Father in heaven. Try if you want... free will does not help.

Also, you do not have the power within yourself to change your nature. Either way, from evil to good or good to evil. That requires a miracle.

Jesus had to die and be resurrected from the dead to effect our change of nature from evil to divine. You cannot do that by your own will. He did it.

Ephesians 2:4-6 KJV
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


1 Peter 1:3 KJV
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
It is easy to tell who has actually studied their Bible and who hasn't. Clearly, you have. Even the parts that you wrote that are not quotes . . . they are still Holy Words that accurately express the core message of the Bible.
 
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Oneofhope

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He probably didn't.
Well, if it is a matter of "probably," then I wouldn't want to follow Jesus as my God. I need a God who is in full control over all things, for in a God like that, I can trust. :D
 
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fhansen

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Well, if it is a matter of "probably," then I wouldn't want to follow Jesus as my God. I need a God who is in full control over all things, for in a God like that, I can trust. :D
Wow, impressive piety or some such thing. I'll word it a better, more definitive way. Those Jesus was referring to, whoever they were, who were given Him by the Father, were not lost. I would not build a case for predestination on that, especially in light of all the warnings and exhortations to others, to all, to continue in the faith, to remain in Him, to be perfect, to be holy, to refrain from sin, to put to death the deeds of the flesh, to do good, to obey the commandments, to persevere, to be vigilant, to invest one's talents, to be slaves of righteousness, all with eternal life at stake.
 
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RandyPNW

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Thank you, Randy. Nice to hear from you again. I must say, we have a massive gap of understanding between us. :)
Apparently so. Hopefully what I said wasn't so obtuse that you were unable to connect it to the Scriptures? Take care...
 
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Oneofhope

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Apparently so. Hopefully what I said wasn't so obtuse that you were unable to connect it to the Scriptures? Take care...
Well . . . this isn't to say that I have a perfect understanding of the Bible; I don't really see a Biblical basis for the things you wrote about. This doesn't mean they aren't true!!! We are trying to communicate with simple messages back and forth, trying not to overwhelm each other with books of information, so, admittedly, it isn't easy to discuss anything, really . . . in this format. Actual voice-to-voice conversations are best. We can get instant clarification, etc.

More than anything, I think the gap might be in our foundation and understanding of the Scriptures. What is the backbone? What holds it together? What are the core doctrines of the Bible? How can I harmonize the entire book when there seem to be so many controversies? These are the things I have spent tens of thousands of hours investigating, cataloging, and writing about for years. To have this base, this foundation . . . it puts an entirely new perspective on the Scriptures.

Enough said, I have to get back to sleep. :D
 
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Romans 3:10-12 NLT - "As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. 12 All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."
It also says "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

And it says - "there is NO partiality with God" Rom 1:11

And it says "37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling." Matt 23

And it says "What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?" Isaiah 5:4

Being controlled by the Spirit, is the most Gracious thing God can do for us.
And yet He leaves it to "whosoever will".

The result is that "the many" in Matt 7 do not go to heaven.
Only the FEW of Matt 7 go to heaven.

Even so - as Rev 7:9 says - the number of the saved is "a great multitude"
On our own, it seems that we're in big trouble.
True. So it is a good thing that God supernaturally "draws ALL MANKIND to Him" John 12:32
John 6:44 LSB - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
True. So it is a good thing that God supernaturally "draws ALL MANKIND to Him" John 12:32
For God "is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3


It is easy to tell who has actually studied their Bible and who hasn't.
agreed.
 
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Romans 3:10-12 NLT - "As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. 12 All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."

Being controlled by the Spirit, is the most Gracious thing God can do for us. On our own, it seems that we're in big trouble.

John 6:44 LSB - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
John 15

…4Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. 5 I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.
 
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WilliamC

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If that is true, how could Jesus say that He wouldn't lose any that the Father gave to Him?
Hi friend, Look at the verse below you quoted. Does Jesus say that he wouldn't lose any?
John 6:39 NLT - "And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day."
It is the will of God that he should not lose even one. That is God's desire, but that is not always the reality.
Look at 2Pet.3:9 "The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance". Is all of mankind going to be saved? No.
John 3:15,16 That whosoever believeth in him "should not" perish... NOT "could not' perish.
How do you make sense of what you offered and the two passages from John that I have offered?
We are to be led by the Holy Spirit...but we must give Him reign to lead. We can turn away any time we want, but the converted will keep coming back wanting the Spirit to lead. Blessings!
 
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Romans 3:10-12 NLT - "As the Scriptures say, "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. 12 All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one."
Paul is quoting extensively from the OT showing how the Jews were sinful at all times and under every condition. The OT is full of, Hyperbole (the employment of exaggerative language to emphasize a point) so this should not be taken to mean each individual person all the time. Paul’s OT quotes are talking about nations and not every individual and yet all mature adults do sin is the point.



Albert Barnes wrote this on Ro. 3: In regard to these quotations from the Old Testament, we may make the following remarks.



(1) They fully establish the position of the apostle, that the nation, as such, was far from being righteous, or that they could be justified by their own works. By quotations from no less than six distinct places in their own writings, referring to different periods of their history, he shows what the character of the nation was. And as this was the characteristic of those times. it followed that a Jew could not hope to be saved simply because he was a Jew. He needed, as much as the Gentile, the benefit of some other plan of salvation.



(2) These passages show us how to use the Old Testament, and the facts of ancient history. They are to be adduced not as showing directly what the character of man is, now, but to show what human nature is. They demonstrate what man is when under the most favorable circumstances; in different situations; and at different periods of the world. The concurrence of past facts shows what the race is. And as past facts are uniform; as man thus far, in the most favorable circumstances, has been sinful; it follows that this is the characteristic of man everywhere. It is settled by the facts of the world, just as any other characteristic of man is settled by the uniform occurrence of facts in all circumstances and times. Ancient facts, and quotations of Scripture, therefore, are to be adduced as proofs of the tendency of human nature. So Paul used them, and so it is lawful for us to use them.



(3) It may be observed further, that the apostle has given a view of human depravity which is very striking. He does not confine it to one faculty of the mind, or to one set of actions; he specifies each member and each faculty as being perverse, and inclined to evil. The depravity extends to all the departments of action. The tongue, the mouth, the feet, the "lips," are all involved in it; all are perverted, and all become the occasion of the commission of sin. The entire man is corrupt; and the painful description extends to every department of action.



(4) If such was the character of the Jewish nation under all its advantages, what must have been the character of the pagan? We are prepared thus to credit all that is said in Rom. i., and elsewhere, of the sad state of the pagan world.



(5) What a melancholy view we have thus of human nature. From whatever quarter we contemplate it, we come to the same conclusion. Whatever record we examine; whatever history we read; whatever time or period we contemplate; we find the same facts, and are forced to the same conclusion. All are involved in sin, and are polluted, and ruined, and helpless. Over these ruins we should sit down and weep, and lift our eyes with gratitude to the God of mercy, that he has pitied us in our low estate, and has devised a plan by which "these ruins may be built again," and lost, fallen man be raised up to forfeited "glory, honor, and immortality."

Paul in all of Romans and especially in Chp. 3 is showing Jews and Gentiles are equal, since all have sinned.
John 6:44 LSB - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
This is an often-quoted scripture to try and proof election and/or OSAS. We have banquette parables that show us what “draw” means, since the Master is not kidnapping guests to come to his party. They still have free will to accept or reject the invitation (which has a huge draw to it). Evweryone at the party was invited.
Being controlled by the Spirit, is the most Gracious thing God can do for us. On our own, it seems that we're in big trouble.
Yes, on our own we can do nothing of value, worth, glory, holiness, righteousness and/or anything worthy of anything good. We are sinful disobedient cruel kidnappers, keep a child of God away from God and His Kingdom, but as kidnappers, we can selfishly decide to accept the undeserving huge ransom payment (Jesus Christ and Him crucified) and allow the child to go free. Is a Kidnapper accepting an undeserved ransom payment doing something righteous?
 
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Oneofhope

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It also says "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

And it says - "there is NO partiality with God" Rom 1:11

And it says "37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling." Matt 23

And it says "What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?" Isaiah 5:4


And yet He leaves it to "whosoever will".

The result is that "the many" in Matt 7 do not go to heaven.
Only the FEW of Matt 7 go to heaven.

Even so - as Rev 7:9 says - the number of the saved is "a great multitude"

True. So it is a good thing that God supernaturally "draws ALL MANKIND to Him" John 12:32

True. So it is a good thing that God supernaturally "draws ALL MANKIND to Him" John 12:32
For God "is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3



agreed.
Thank you so much for sharing all that you did!
 
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Oneofhope

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Hi friend, Look at the verse below you quoted. Does Jesus say that he wouldn't lose any?

It is the will of God that he should not lose even one. That is God's desire, but that is not always the reality.
Look at 2Pet.3:9 "The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance". Is all of mankind going to be saved? No.
John 3:15,16 That whosoever believeth in him "should not" perish... NOT "could not' perish.

We are to be led by the Holy Spirit...but we must give Him reign to lead. We can turn away any time we want, but the converted will keep coming back wanting the Spirit to lead. Blessings!
Hello WC!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and allowing me to respond in kind.

Excellent points you have made. In response to John 6:39, where you asked . . .

“Does Jesus say that he wouldn't lose any?”

Well, yes and no. Considering that the Bible reports that Jesus is Himself, God.

I think that in this case, it [is] the reality that those whom Jesus receives from the Father [will] come to Him, for they Know His voice. This seems to be a theme in John 10. Below is one of the references to this chapter and idea:

John 10:4 NLT – “After he has gathered his own flock, he walks ahead of them, and they follow him because they know his voice.”

Two things:

  • The Flock of Christ Knows Him, because He first knew them. How? Spiritual Circumcision.
  • John 6:39 is speaking of Jesus’s flock only, and not those who [do not] belong to God. Those who do not belong to God are those from the Seven Nation and their many sub-Nations. These “people” were not from the Lord, which is why God refers to them as abominations. All of them called to be destroyed: man, woman, child, and even the animals. They are the offspring of fallen Angels.
The ones who Jesus will not lose are those who belong to the Lord . . . those of His Pen.

You also wrote:

“We are to be led by the Holy Spirit...but we must give Him reign to lead.”

I hear you, and I used to believe this at one time . . . so I can understand. However, after feeling the Power of the Indwelling Holy Spirit, which was so Powerful that it nearly killed me, I realized that I am in no position to tell God what He can and cannot do. I realized that if God allows my lungs to operate each time I breathe, He is already in control. It would, therefore, be impossible for me to grant permission to the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit to do anything . . . at all. I choose the humbler approach, one of an owned, purchased, and controlled slave, and I love this position!

You also wrote:

“We can turn away any time we want . . .”

I hear what you’re saying. The problem is this . . . what is the context of the entire Bible? Being independent of Satan and God is not a part of the Bible. There isn’t a single page that contains information that indicates that we are neither controlled by the will of Satan nor by the Will of God.

Great topic, and thank you so much for sharing! I believe free will is an Essential Doctrine when delivering the real Saving, Gospel Plan of Jesus Christ.

May your day be perfect!
 
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