VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is a blatant addition to scripture.
Jesus has departed from heaven, He does not go back there, He reigns on earth for the next thousand years, then hands the Kingdom back to the Father 1 Corinthians 15:24, and God will then dwell with mankind on the new earth. Rev 21:1`-7

Our Hope and our Destiny:
The Prophetic Word tells us how the Lord will save and protect His people during His terrible Day of wrath, the soon to happen Sixth Seal punishment of the ungodly peoples and the reset of our civilization.
Then those who kept strong in their faith will be gathered and will migrate into all of the holy Land. Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16 and Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, are some of the best prophesies about this.

We Christians are the Lord's people, His chosen; John 15:18, 1 Peter 2:8-10, and we are the people; nation, who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43.

We will, in the holy Land be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Acts 13:47, Ezekiel 39:27
Basically there is no need for anyone, other than the 2 Witnesses to go to heaven, Revelation 11:12, and they do not stay there, as Jesus Returns just then and they are resurrected along with all the rest of the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4

The whole idea of a rapture removal of Christians to heaven, is not part of God's plan for His people. We are made to live on earth, God has angels in heaven.
Therefore, a body change is not necessary or logical, before the final wrap up after the Millennium and only then will all those whose names are written in the Book of Life, receive immortality and be with God for Eternity, when God and therefore heaven; will be on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

You say no one goes to Heaven, during the Trib. Here's another example:

Rev 11:12 (ESV): Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

So, where do the 2W go in Rev 11:12, if not to Heaven?

 

[keras]

Jesus has departed from Heaven? That's past tense. The last we know about Jesus is he ascended to Heaven (Acts 1:9). When has He since departed from Heaven?

Have some sense!
We are discussing the Prophesies that describe the glorious Return of Jesus. He leaves heaven to Return to the earth.

Prove it means otherwise. The proof would be another Bible verse that says that after we are gathered up into the air to meet Jesus, we come back down, instead.

The Prophesies of His Return go on to say He will rule the world for the next thousand years, NOT go back to heaven.
We know that Jesus will remain on earth from scriptures like Isaiah 2:1-4 and Zechariah 14:16-21

The 'gathering' as per Matthew 24:31, is just from wherever His people are on earth to where He is - in Jerusalem. Through the atmosphere.

 

[keras]

So, where do the 2W go in Rev 11:12, if not to Heaven?

As the Two Witnesses will preach for the 1260 days of the great Trib, Rev 11:3, their raising coincides with the glorious Return of King Jesus.
He will be bringing the souls of all the GT martyrs with Him, all of those killed during that1260 days and they will all live again, on earth. Rev 20:4-6
INCLUDING the 2W. The only difference being their bodies will be raised up to meet Jesus in the clouds.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Have some sense!
We are discussing the Prophesies that describe the glorious Return of Jesus. He leaves heaven to Return to the earth.

The Prophesies of His Return go on to say He will rule the world for the next thousand years, NOT go back to heaven.
We know that Jesus will remain on earth from scriptures like Isaiah 2:1-4 and Zechariah 14:16-21

The 'gathering' as per Matthew 24:31, is just from wherever His people are on earth to where He is - in Jerusalem. Through the atmosphere.

You are only citing 2A verses and what happens after it. You are therefore discussing the 2A (Matt 24:30), Armageddon, the gatherings in Matt 25 (sheep and goats), then the MK, then the GWTJ, then all things new.

You are not disproving the pre-Trib rapture. We are gathered before the Trib (Rev 3:10) and we're taken to Heaven (John 14:2-3). There is no occurrence of a rapture of all the dead in Christ and all living believers after the Trib starts. Please prove otherwise, and please keep in mind that Jesus' next coming back must align with Acts 1:11.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

As the Two Witnesses will preach for the 1260 days of the great Trib, Rev 11:3, their raising coincides with the glorious Return of King Jesus.
He will be bringing the souls of all the GT martyrs with Him, all of those killed during that1260 days and they will all live again, on earth. Rev 20:4-6
INCLUDING the 2W. The only difference being their bodies will be raised up to meet Jesus in the clouds.

All seven bowls will not have been poured before the 2W are raptured to Heaven. They are raptured to Heaven just as Rev 11:12 says: Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

Their going up to Heaven can't align with the 2A since the GT will not yet have ended. You are way off the mark of any sensible timeline.

 

[keras]

Their going up to Heaven can't align with the 2A since the GT will not yet have ended. You are way off the mark of any sensible timeline.

You fail to read what the Seventh Trumpet does.
Revelation 10:7 When the time comes for the Seventh angel to sound his trumpet, then the hidden purpose of God will be revealed........

Which it is; as we are told in Revelation 11:15-19 Gods Purpose is to install Jesus as ruler of the world, Psalms 2:8
This makes Gods plan known , but does not fulfil it yet, as the Seven Bowls have still to be poured out and at the Seventh Bowl the great Day of God Almighty: Rev 16:14, where He destroys all of His enemies at Armageddon, takes place. Revelation 16:16-21
Note how this is paralleled by a huge earthquake and giant hailstones. Rev 11:13 & 19, Rev 16:18 & 21

You are not disproving the pre-Trib rapture

I don't need to. The Bible prophets never say a rapture to heaven is going to happen.
All your 'proofs' consist of you inserting the word 'heaven' where it is not stated. For this, you will be held accountable.

God has not formed the earth and given humans life, in order for some of them to be taken to where He dwells.
Our duty is to be His Light to the nations and to preach the coming Kingdom. There is no easy way out for anyone.
We Christians have the Promise of the Lords protection thru all that must happen and if we are killed for our faith, as so many have already; then we have His assurance of Eternal life. But that cannot come until after Gods 7000 year plan for mankind is over. Rev 20:11-15

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

As the Two Witnesses will preach for the 1260 days of the great Trib, Rev 11:3, their raising coincides with the glorious Return of King Jesus.
He will be bringing the souls of all the GT martyrs with Him, all of those killed during that1260 days and they will all live again, on earth. Rev 20:4-6
INCLUDING the 2W. The only difference being their bodies will be raised up to meet Jesus in the clouds.

First, you are butchering 1 Th 4:16-17, Acts 1:11 and Rev 11:12.

The GT martyrs are the souls in Rev 20:4. They are resurrected per the last words of verse 4. But, they are in Heaven when they are resurrected. They will return with Jesus in the 2A as part of the armies that will follow him, riding white horses arrayed in fine linen, white and pure. Please read Rev 19:14 (ESV).

You ignore the words of Acts 1:11 which strictly govern how Jesus will NEXT come back. Just look at Matt 24:30. Jesus will be on view of the entire world (Rev 1:7). Matt 24:30 is 2A verse and it will be fulfilled exactly as written. But, it can't be the next coming because it violates everything about Acts 1:11.

In the ascension, Jesus ascended only in the view of believers (His disciples). He ascended into clouds that hid Him from view. Then, He went into Heaven. To do the exact opposite (coming back in the same WAY as He ascended), He will descend from Heaven (1 Th 4:16) hidden behind clouds, and He will descend into the view of believers, only (1 Th 4:17). Therefore, the 2A can't be the next coming. Keras, it is only the pre-Trib rapture that can fulfill Acts 1:11. And, that is exactly how it's laid out in 1 Th 4:16-17 and John 14:2-3.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You fail to read what the Seventh Trumpet does.
Revelation 10:7 When the time comes for the Seventh angel to sound his trumpet, then the hidden purpose of God will be revealed........

Which it is; as we are told in Revelation 11:15-19 Gods Purpose is to install Jesus as ruler of the world, Psalms 2:8
This makes Gods plan known , but does not fulfil it yet, as the Seven Bowls have still to be poured out and at the Seventh Bowl the great Day of God Almighty: Rev 16:14, where He destroys all of His enemies at Armageddon, takes place. Revelation 16:16-21
Note how this is paralleled by a huge earthquake and giant hailstones. Rev 11:13 & 19, Rev 16:18 & 21

I don't need to. The Bible prophets never say a rapture to heaven is going to happen.
All your 'proofs' consist of you inserting the word 'heaven' where it is not stated. For this, you will be held accountable.

God has not formed the earth and given humans life, in order for some of them to be taken to where He dwells.
Our duty is to be His Light to the nations and to preach the coming Kingdom. There is no easy way out for anyone.
We Christians have the Promise of the Lords protection thru all that must happen and if we are killed for our faith, as so many have already; then we have His assurance of Eternal life. But that cannot come until after Gods 7000 year plan for mankind is over. Rev 20:11-15

It was Apostle Paul who was given the responsibility to teach the pre-Trib rapture, and he did in 2 Th 2:1-3:

2 Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible): Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

"That day" in verse 3 refers back to "the day of the Lord" in verse 2. Paul says in verse 3, "for that day (Day of the Lord) shall not come, except there come a departing first, ..." Paul was irrefutably teaching the pre-Trib timing of the rapture.

Of course, you will now claim Paul meant a departure from faith. That's impossible. Paul said the Trib shall not come, except there come a departing first. Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon proves that "apostasia" can mean "physical departure," and that's exactly what Paul meant.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It was Apostle Paul who was given the responsibility to teach the pre-Trib rapture, and he did in 2 Th 2:1-3:

2 Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible): Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

"That day" in verse 3 refers back to "the day of the Lord" in verse 2. Paul says in verse 3, "for that day (Day of the Lord) shall not come, except there come a departing first, ..." Paul was irrefutably teaching the pre-Trib timing of the rapture.

Of course, you will now claim Paul meant a departure from faith. That's impossible. Paul said the Trib shall not come, except there come a departing first. Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon proves that "apostasia" can mean "physical departure," and that's exactly what Paul meant.

You can't link the 7th trumpet to anything in the 2nd half (after Rev 11). Only the bowls are poured in the 2nd half.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You can't link the 7th trumpet to anything in the 2nd half (after Rev 11). Only the bowls are poured in the 2nd half.

You fail to read what the Seventh Trumpet does.
Revelation 10:7 When the time comes for the Seventh angel to sound his trumpet, then the hidden purpose of God will be revealed........

Which it is; as we are told in Revelation 11:15-19 Gods Purpose is to install Jesus as ruler of the world, Psalms 2:8
This makes Gods plan known , but does not fulfil it yet, as the Seven Bowls have still to be poured out and at the Seventh Bowl the great Day of God Almighty: Rev 16:14, where He destroys all of His enemies at Armageddon, takes place. Revelation 16:16-21
Note how this is paralleled by a huge earthquake and giant hailstones. Rev 11:13 & 19, Rev 16:18 & 21

I don't need to. The Bible prophets never say a rapture to heaven is going to happen.
All your 'proofs' consist of you inserting the word 'heaven' where it is not stated. For this, you will be held accountable.

God has not formed the earth and given humans life, in order for some of them to be taken to where He dwells.
Our duty is to be His Light to the nations and to preach the coming Kingdom. There is no easy way out for anyone.
We Christians have the Promise of the Lords protection thru all that must happen and if we are killed for our faith, as so many have already; then we have His assurance of Eternal life. But that cannot come until after Gods 7000 year plan for mankind is over. Rev 20:11-15

God said in 1 Corinthians 15:52-53 (NIV): in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

God has already made it possible for humans to change into immortality, when the last trumpet is sounded (the last trumpet is in 1 Th 4:16).

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You fail to read what the Seventh Trumpet does.
Revelation 10:7 When the time comes for the Seventh angel to sound his trumpet, then the hidden purpose of God will be revealed........

Which it is; as we are told in Revelation 11:15-19 Gods Purpose is to install Jesus as ruler of the world, Psalms 2:8
This makes Gods plan known , but does not fulfil it yet, as the Seven Bowls have still to be poured out and at the Seventh Bowl the great Day of God Almighty: Rev 16:14, where He destroys all of His enemies at Armageddon, takes place. Revelation 16:16-21
Note how this is paralleled by a huge earthquake and giant hailstones. Rev 11:13 & 19, Rev 16:18 & 21

I don't need to. The Bible prophets never say a rapture to heaven is going to happen.
All your 'proofs' consist of you inserting the word 'heaven' where it is not stated. For this, you will be held accountable.

God has not formed the earth and given humans life, in order for some of them to be taken to where He dwells.
Our duty is to be His Light to the nations and to preach the coming Kingdom. There is no easy way out for anyone.
We Christians have the Promise of the Lords protection thru all that must happen and if we are killed for our faith, as so many have already; then we have His assurance of Eternal life. But that cannot come until after Gods 7000 year plan for mankind is over. Rev 20:11-15

You and this prophet obsession. You act like EVERYTHING has to be prophesied. That's ridiculous. You dodge tough questions with this prophecy obsession. In fact, it's just a tool to say wild things. But, when you're challenged, you revert to prophecy things. It's an out for you. You dodge tough questions with it. So, you say Jesus has departed Heaven since His ascension. Prove it! Or, is it just some other crazy statement by your prophecy buddies?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You fail to read what the Seventh Trumpet does.
Revelation 10:7 When the time comes for the Seventh angel to sound his trumpet, then the hidden purpose of God will be revealed........

Which it is; as we are told in Revelation 11:15-19 Gods Purpose is to install Jesus as ruler of the world, Psalms 2:8
This makes Gods plan known , but does not fulfil it yet, as the Seven Bowls have still to be poured out and at the Seventh Bowl the great Day of God Almighty: Rev 16:14, where He destroys all of His enemies at Armageddon, takes place. Revelation 16:16-21
Note how this is paralleled by a huge earthquake and giant hailstones. Rev 11:13 & 19, Rev 16:18 & 21

I don't need to. The Bible prophets never say a rapture to heaven is going to happen.
All your 'proofs' consist of you inserting the word 'heaven' where it is not stated. For this, you will be held accountable.

God has not formed the earth and given humans life, in order for some of them to be taken to where He dwells.
Our duty is to be His Light to the nations and to preach the coming Kingdom. There is no easy way out for anyone.
We Christians have the Promise of the Lords protection thru all that must happen and if we are killed for our faith, as so many have already; then we have His assurance of Eternal life. But that cannot come until after Gods 7000 year plan for mankind is over. Rev 20:11-15

You can't prove Jesus has departed from Heaven since His ascension --- because it isn't true.

 

[keras]

You and this prophet obsession. You act like EVERYTHING has to be prophesied. That's ridiculous. You dodge tough questions with this prophecy obsession. In fact, it's just a tool to say wild things. But, when you're challenged, you revert to prophecy things. It's an out for you. You dodge tough questions with it. So, you say Jesus has departed Heaven since His ascension. Prove it! Or, is it just some other crazy statement by your prophecy buddies?

Far better that totally unreal statements by promoters of unbiblical theories.

You can't prove Jesus has departed from Heaven since His ascension --- because it isn't true.

Jesus waits in heaven until His enemies are made His footstool. Which will happen at the forthcoming Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
At least 10 years after that,He departs from heaven at the Seventh Bowl, wins the Battle of Armageddon, gathers His faithful people to Jerusalem for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and then reigns over the world for the next thousand years.

It was Apostle Paul who was given the responsibility to teach the pre-Trib rapture, and he did in 2 Th 2:1-3:

If you are so deluded as to believe there is proof of a rapture to heaven in those 3 verses, then you are a hopeless case.
Clearly; Paul is talking about what happens when Jesus leaves heaven and things that must take place before that glorious Day.

Six posts in a row?
Seems your are frothing at the mouth, desperately trying to justify a belief that even a child would reject; when the true facts are presented.
Problem is that the poor saps sucked in by the beyond sci-fi rapture to heaven doctrine, are not taught to even read or understand the truth of the Prophetic Word.
Going to be real tough for them as disaster strikes, and they don't know which way to turn. Luke 21:25-26

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Far better that totally unreal statements by promoters of unbiblical theories.

Jesus waits in heaven until His enemies are made His footstool. Which will happen at the forthcoming Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
At least 10 years after that,He departs from heaven at the Seventh Bowl, wins the Battle of Armageddon, gathers His faithful people to Jerusalem for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and then reigns over the world for the next thousand years.

If you are so deluded as to believe there is proof of a rapture to heaven in those 3 verses, then you are a hopeless case.
Clearly; Paul is talking about what happens when Jesus leaves heaven and things that must take place before that glorious Day.

Six posts in a row?
Seems your are frothing at the mouth, desperately trying to justify a belief that even a child would reject; when the true facts are presented.
Problem is that the poor saps sucked in by the beyond sci-fi rapture to heaven doctrine, are not taught to even read or understand the truth of the Prophetic Word.
Going to be real tough for them as disaster strikes, and they don't know which way to turn. Luke 21:25-26

What does Rev 3:10 mean by us being kept from the "hour of trial" that will come over the inhabitants of the earth? The inhabitants of the earth is a very demeaning phrase: Rev 11:10 (NIV): The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

Prove, with Scripture, that that is not about the pre-Trib rapture.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Far better that totally unreal statements by promoters of unbiblical theories.

Jesus waits in heaven until His enemies are made His footstool. Which will happen at the forthcoming Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
At least 10 years after that,He departs from heaven at the Seventh Bowl, wins the Battle of Armageddon, gathers His faithful people to Jerusalem for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and then reigns over the world for the next thousand years.

If you are so deluded as to believe there is proof of a rapture to heaven in those 3 verses, then you are a hopeless case.
Clearly; Paul is talking about what happens when Jesus leaves heaven and things that must take place before that glorious Day.

Six posts in a row?
Seems your are frothing at the mouth, desperately trying to justify a belief that even a child would reject; when the true facts are presented.
Problem is that the poor saps sucked in by the beyond sci-fi rapture to heaven doctrine, are not taught to even read or understand the truth of the Prophetic Word.
Going to be real tough for them as disaster strikes, and they don't know which way to turn. Luke 21:25-26

You are so in violation of Acts 1:11, with your wildly inaccurate explanations of Jesus' next return. He descends from Heaven, behind clouds, only into the view of believers.

You can't disprove that. That's the reverse sequence of how Jesus ascended, in total alignment with Acts 1:11.

We only find that reverse sequence in 2 Th 2:1, 1 Th 4:16-17 and John 14:3.

 

[keras]

Prove, with Scripture, that that is not about the pre-Trib rapture.

YOU prove that Rev 3:10 is about a rapture to heaven.
Kind of hard to do, as heaven is not mentioned and that verse says the great test will come upon all of the worlds inhabitants. Luke 21:35

To ignore the many scriptures saying how we must endure until the end, is a serious mistake, to your discredit.

You are so in violation of Acts 1:11, with your wildly inaccurate explanations of Jesus' next return. He descends from Heaven, behind clouds, only into the view of believers.

You can't disprove that. That's the reverse sequence of how Jesus ascended, in total alignment with Acts 1:11.

We only find that reverse sequence in 2 Th 2:1, 1 Th 4:16-17 and John 14:3.

Pathetic.
I gave the Biblical series of things which will happen at the time of Jesus' Return. The actual Return will be seen by all, Revelation 1:7

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

YOU prove that Rev 3:10 is about a rapture to heaven.
Kind of hard to do, as heaven is not mentioned and that verse says the great test will come upon all of the worlds inhabitants. Luke 21:35

To ignore the many scriptures saying how we must endure until the end, is a serious mistake, to your discredit.

Pathetic.
I gave the Biblical series of things which will happen at the time of Jesus' Return. The actual Return will be seen by all, Revelation 1:7

Acts 1:11 is about the NEXT return of Jesus. That return must follow the reverse-sequence of His ascension. His ascension was where Jesus ascended in view of believers, only (His disciples). He ascended into clouds, then into Heaven. The reverse-sequence is where Jesus will descend from Heaven behind clouds, into the view of believers, only. That aligns perfectly with Acts 1:11.

It is impossible for that reverse-sequence to apply to the 2A. The 2A starts with Jesus on clouds, in view of the whole world (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). Right at the start of the 2A, Jesus is not in alignment with Acts 1:11, because Jesus will be seen by a world of unbelievers. It is therefore Scripturally impossible for the 2A to be the next return of Jesus.

Only the pre-Trib rapture fits the reverse-sequence of Acts 1:11. In 1 Th 4:17, we won't see Jesus until we pass through clouds and meet Him in the air. That means Jesus only next descends behind clouds, and into the view of believers. That's the Scriptural truth.

 

[keras]

Acts 1:11 is about the NEXT return of Jesus. That return must follow the reverse-sequence of His ascension. His ascension was where Jesus ascended in view of believers, only (His disciples). He ascended into clouds, then into Heaven. The reverse-sequence is where Jesus will descend from Heaven behind clouds, into the view of believers, only. That aligns perfectly with Acts 1:11.

It is impossible for that reverse-sequence to apply to the 2A. The 2A starts with Jesus on clouds, in view of the whole world (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). Right at the start of the 2A, Jesus is not in alignment with Acts 1:11, because Jesus will be seen by a world of unbelievers. It is therefore Scripturally impossible for the 2A to be the next return of Jesus.

Only the pre-Trib rapture fits the reverse-sequence of Acts 1:11. In 1 Th 4:17, we won't see Jesus until we pass through clouds and meet Him in the air. That means Jesus only next descends behind clouds, and into the view of believers. That's the Scriptural truth.

Sheer pretentious nonsense.
You are guilty of making scripture fit your beliefs.

At the next Prophesied event; the Sixth Seal world changer, Jesus does not leave heaven; He sends His fiery wrath to destroy Hid enemies. No one will be raptured then. Psalms 18:7-15.... the Lord thundered from the heavens.......

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Sheer pretentious nonsense.
You are guilty of making scripture fit your beliefs.

At the next Prophesied event; the Sixth Seal world changer, Jesus does not leave heaven; He sends His fiery wrath to destroy Hid enemies. No one will be raptured then. Psalms 18:7-15.... the Lord thundered from the heavens.......

What I wrote EXACTLY aligns with Acts 1:11. You're going back to the "prophecy" claims, because you CAN'T refute the truth I presented. You go back to prophecy claims when you can't refute. Thank you, I am complimented. Have a good night!

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

What I wrote EXACTLY aligns with Acts 1:11. You're going back to the "prophecy" claims, because you CAN'T refute the truth I presented. You go back to prophecy claims when you can't refute. Thank you, I am complimented. Have a good night!

There is nothing in the Bible that says the 6th seal is the next prophesied event. You are making that up.