VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Matthew 24 doesn't have to be mysterious. The only reason that the dead are even mentioned in 1st Thes 4 is because that's the original subject. Paul was trying to comfort them. The event is still the same. No two authors write exactly the same. But both describe our gathering back to Christ in different ways but they are the same event.

What about the fact that the two trumpets are each sounded just ONCE and for a different purpose? There is no way you can make those two trumpets with each with an entirely different purpose, into one event.

The comforting Paul gave was to assure folks that the dead in Christ aren't confined to graves. 1 Th 4:13-14 (ESV): But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. ----- They are in Paradise where God is accommodating them until the pre-Trib rapture to Heaven.

 

[keras]

but you are ignoring that Matt 24:31 does not say where that gathering goes. You are making up an answer.

Matthew 24:30-31, is perfectly clear: it describes the glorious Return of Jesus to the earth. ...all the peoples of the earth will lament, as they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heavens, in power and great glory.
He will gather His chosen people and they will be with Him for the Millennium on earth.

There is no hint of anyone leaving the earth and as Mathew 24:29 says; this happens after all the tribulations are over.

There is nothing mysterious about who is raised and raptured. 1 Th 4:16-17 make that clear. In verse 16, the trumpet sounds ONCE and ALL the dead in Christ are raised.

This is serious error and a blatant adding to scripture.
ALL is not in that verse. It is clearly told to us in Revelation 29:4-6, that only those martyrs killed during the last 3 1/2 years of this age, will be raised when Jesus Returns.

It is this kind of wilful misinterpretation and wrongful esiegis of what the Bible actually does say, which destroys your case.
A 'rapture to heaven'; for anyone, at any time, is never Prophesied to happen. There are a few individual exceptions, but none of them say they go to live in heaven, permanently. That idea is false and is nothing less than a satanic lie.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Matthew 24:30-31, is perfectly clear: it describes the glorious Return of Jesus to the earth. ...all the peoples of the earth will lament, as they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heavens, in power and great glory.
He will gather His chosen people and they will be with Him for the Millennium on earth.

There is no hint of anyone leaving the earth and as Mathew 24:29 says; this happens after all the tribulations are over.

This is serious error and a blatant adding to scripture.
ALL is not in that verse. It is clearly told to us in Revelation 29:4-6, that only those martyrs killed during the last 3 1/2 years of this age, will be raised when Jesus Returns.

It is this kind of wilful misinterpretation and wrongful esiegis of what the Bible actually does say, which destroys your case.
A 'rapture to heaven'; for anyone, at any time, is never Prophesied to happen. There are a few individual exceptions, but none of them say they go to live in heaven, permanently. That idea is false and is nothing less than a satanic lie.

Keras, you are not recognizing the distinctions made about people in verses. In Matt 24:30 and Rev 3:10, the "peoples of the earth will lament" in Matt 24:30 are the same as "those who dwell on the earth" in Rev 3:10. They are unbelievers written about in very demeaning terms. Would a believer lament the glorious return of Jesus? You are missing the distinctions. The believers are not included because they are raptured years earlier, in the pre-Trib rapture.

1 Th 1:10 (NIV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Do you see the word "war" above that's a certified form of God's wrath?

Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

There you have proof, that the "war" in the 2nd seal is the starting point for God's wrath in the Trib. That seal is opened on day 1 of the Trib. Now, read again 1 Th 1:10 (NIV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

That is proof the pre-Trib rapture will occur. The "wrath to come" begins in the 2nd seal. You can bet that seal is opened on day 1 of the Trib.

You continue to say there is no hint of anyone leaving the earth. The verses below prohibit you from repeating that falsehood, anymore:

All of the great multitude of new converts from the Trib, are in Heaven in Rev 7:15-17.

 

[keras]

You continue to say there is no hint of anyone leaving the earth. The verses below prohibit you from repeating that falsehood, anymore:

All of the great multitude of new converts from the Trib, are in Heaven in Rev 7:15-17.

Heaven is not mentioned in Rev 7:15-17. Those verses are a Prophecy abut the Eternal state, AFTER the Millennium. Proved by how it is then that God will wipe away every tear, Revelation 21:4 On the new Earth.

The vast multitude of Rev 7:9, are living people who have survived the terrible Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. They stayed strong in their faith and trusted the Lord for His protection: to keep them safe during that ordeal. Revelation 3:10 clearly says it will be those who keep His Command to stand firm, who He will protect and keep safe. NOT remove!

All your posts are speculation and guesswork. You jump to wrong conclusions, you add words and outcomes to scripture and you deny the plain teaching of Jesus. John 3:13

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Heaven is not mentioned in Rev 7:15-17. Those verses are a Prophecy abut the Eternal state, AFTER the Millennium. Proved by how it is then that God will wipe away every tear, Revelation 21:4 On the new Earth.

The vast multitude of Rev 7:9, are living people who have survived the terrible Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. They stayed strong in their faith and trusted the Lord for His protection: to keep them safe during that ordeal. Revelation 3:10 clearly says it will be those who keep His Command to stand firm, who He will protect and keep safe. NOT remove!

All your posts are speculation and guesswork. You jump to wrong conclusions, you add words and outcomes to scripture and you deny the plain teaching of Jesus. John 3:13

Rev 7:15 (NLT):
15 “That is why they stand in front of God’s throne
and serve him day and night in his Temple.
And he who sits on the throne
will give them shelter.

If you're "in front of God's throne," where are you?

 

[keras]

Rev 7:15 (NLT):
15 “That is why they stand in front of God’s throne
and serve him day and night in his Temple.
And he who sits on the throne
will give them shelter.

If you're "in front of God's throne," where are you?

On earth, as Ezekiel 1:1 and Acts 7:56 prove God's Throne is a Spiritual concept and is anywhere and everywhere.

Do you just brush aside the proof I gave that Revelation 7:15-17 is a Prophecy about the Eternal state?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

On earth, as Ezekiel 1:1 and Acts 7:56 prove God's Throne is a Spiritual concept and is anywhere and everywhere.

Do you just brush aside the proof I gave that Revelation 7:15-17 is a Prophecy about the Eternal state?

Keras, every time you are up against verses that prove you wrong, you default to "prophecy talk." That's your script.

Rev 20:4 is the completed "number" for the GM (see Rev 6:11). They are all martyred as souls under the altar. They are all resurrected (see below in (Rev 20:4). They all then appear together in Rev 7:14-15 -- in Heaven, as they will later reign with Jesus in the MK. No, this is not about some "spiritual state."

Rev 20:4 (NLT: ... And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 7:14-15 (NLT): 14 ... And I said to him, “Sir, you are the one who knows.”

Then he said to me, “These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.

15 “That is why they stand in front of God’s throne
and serve him day and night in his Temple.
And he who sits on the throne
will give them shelter.

 

[keras]

Keras, every time you are up against verses that prove you wrong, you default to "prophecy talk." That's your script

I have yet to see you post anything that proves me wrong.
You are so hooked into the 'rapture to heaven' theory that you make obviously wrong assertions and additions to scripture.

Then he said to me, “These are the ones who died in the great tribulation.

Like adding 'died' in Revelation 7:14 ....these are they who came out of great tribulation..... KJV.
....they are those who have passed through the great ordeal.... REBible.

I demand that you post a retraction to your false statement. Maybe then, the Lord will forgive you and not impose a curse on you for adding to Revelation 22:18

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I have yet to see you post anything that proves me wrong.
You are so hooked into the 'rapture to heaven' theory that you make obviously wrong assertions and additions to scripture.

Like adding 'died' in Revelation 7:14 ....these are they who came out of great tribulation..... KJV.
....they are those who have passed through the great ordeal.... REBible.

I demand that you post a retraction to your false statement. Maybe then, the Lord will forgive you and not impose a curse on you for adding to Revelation 22:18

Prove the rapture occurs elsewhere on the timeline.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Prove the rapture occurs elsewhere on the timeline.

KJV and other versions say the same thing, this way:

Rev 20:4 (KJV): And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The KJV also says the souls of the GM ..."and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The GM are killed in the Trib, and resurrected. They then appear in Rev 7:14. Is the KJV wrong about the GM being killed?

Rev 7:14 (KJV): And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

"These are they which came out of great tribulation, ..." AFTER THEY WERE MARTYERED, THEN AFTER THEY WERE RESURRECTED.

 

[keras]

Prove the rapture occurs elsewhere on the timeline.

You prove that a 'rapture to heaven' will occur at all.

The gathering of the Lords faithful people, as described in Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thess 4:16-17, is a transportation from an earthly location to Jerusalem, where Jesus will be when He Returns.

Like adding 'died' in Revelation 7:14 ....these are they who came out of great tribulation..... KJV.
....they are those who have passed through the great ordeal.... REBible.

Are you going to retract your false and seriously wrong adding to Revelation? Or are you happy to incur the curse the Lord will apply to you.

That the martyrs killed during the Great Trib, are NOT the vast multitude of Rev 7:9, is obvious from the given sequence of Revelation.
They are living people; could be you or me, who kept their faith during the Sixth Seal and who migrate to the holy land, as many Prophesies tell us. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You prove that a 'rapture to heaven' will occur at all.

The gathering of the Lords faithful people, as described in Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thess 4:16-17, is a transportation from an earthly location to Jerusalem, where Jesus will be when He Returns.

Are you going to retract your false and seriously wrong adding to Revelation? Or are you happy to incur the curse the Lord will apply to you.

That the martyrs killed during the Great Trib, are NOT the vast multitude of Rev 7:9, is obvious from the given sequence of Revelation.
They are living people; could be you or me, who kept their faith during the Sixth Seal and who migrate to the holy land, as many Prophesies tell us. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

Where does it say Jerusalem in those verses?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Where does it say Jerusalem in those verses?

John 14:2-3 (KJV): In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Jesus said He is preparing a place for each of us to live in, in Heaven.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

"that where I am, there ye may be also" is about where He is now (Heaven) and that He will come for us and take us up to Heaven, to enjoy His boundless grace in the living quarters He has uniquely prepared for each of us to live in.

 

[keras]

Where does it say Jerusalem in those verses?

We are given more information in other Prophesies. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will Return in the same way as He ascended, to the same place. Proved by Zechariah 14:4

A proper question is: Where does it say heaven in those verses?

Jesus said He is preparing a place for each of us to live in, in Heaven.

This false idea is totally refuted by Revelation 21, where the New Jerusalem, the place Jesus is preparing, will come down to the new earth.
To be inhabited only by those whose names are Written in the Book of Life.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

We are given more information in other Prophesies. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will Return in the same way as He ascended, to the same place. Proved by Zechariah 14:4

A proper question is: Where does it say heaven in those verses?

This false idea is totally refuted by Revelation 21, where the New Jerusalem, the place Jesus is preparing, will come down to the new earth.
To be inhabited only by those whose names are Written in the Book of Life.

You are adding false data to Acts 1:11. It only says "in the same way." It doesn't say to the same location. You are adding false data.

The way Jesus ascended is this: He ascended by Himself, in the view of believers, only (His disciples). He ascended to behind clouds, then into Heaven.

The reverse-sequence will be: Jesus will descend by Himself (1 Th 4:16) to behind heavenly clouds (verse 17) and into the view of believers, only (verse 17).

Your ship is sunk. The pre-Trib rapture is PROPHESIED to be the NEXT prophetic event.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You are adding false data to Acts 1:11. It only says "in the same way." It doesn't say to the same location. You are adding false data.

The way Jesus ascended is this: He ascended by Himself, in the view of believers, only (His disciples). He ascended to behind clouds, then into Heaven.

The reverse-sequence will be: Jesus will descend by Himself (1 Th 4:16) to behind heavenly clouds (verse 17) and into the view of believers, only (verse 17).

Your ship is sunk. The pre-Trib rapture is PROPHESIED to be the NEXT prophetic event.

You are trying to assign prophecies about the 2A (2nd Advent) that don't apply to Acts 1:11. The 2A can't align with Acts 1:11. In the 2A, Jesus is ON CLOUDS and is seen by the whole world (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). Immediately, in the 2A, it does NOT align with Acts 1:11. Everything thereafter about Jesus' descent in the 2A DOES NOT ALIGN WITH Acts 1:11.

Your ship has sunk!

 

[keras]

You are adding false data to Acts 1:11. It only says "in the same way." It doesn't say to the same location. You are adding false data.

Zechariah 14:4 shows how wrong you are.
Your desperation to fit in a 'rapture' is apparent.

A lot of Christian people believe that there will be a "pre-tribulation rapture”, that is: they believe that before the beast of Revelation takes over, makes war on the saints, and demands his mark on each person's body, all Christians will be "raptured".

The word rapture and the idea of a removal of living people to heaven is not in the Bible.

The Bible does not teach a pre-tribulation rapture. It teaches tribulation. Because these people believe that they will not be here for the tribulation, they are not spiritually or physically preparing themselves, or their children, for what is to come.
They cannot see what is happening before their very eyes. They are so locked into deception that they cannot see nor hear. Not only are they deceived, they condemn anyone who does not believe in a pretribulation rapture.

The nature of deception is that you really believe what is false and that you disbelieve what is true. The only way that someone can come out of deception is if they really love the truth. If someone truly loves the scriptures, he will change his beliefs to conform to the scriptures when he sees that he is wrong. Unfortunately, most people feel that they have too much to lose by changing their false belief system. What if a dispensationalist preacher accepted the truth that he has been preaching a lie? Do you think his preacher friends will congratulate him for leaving deception? Do you think his dispensationalist congregation will be happy with him? There is a good chance that he will lose his tenure and position. Because many love the praise of men more than the praise of God, they will stay in deception rather lose their standing in their community. They cannot even afford to think that their beliefs may be wrong. You have to really love the truth to run this race.

Dispensationalism and the rapture is a heresy taught all across the face of the earth in Bible colleges and seminaries. It is preached and taught from pulpits, in books, and videos.

All this is really sad, because the truth of God’s Plans for His people, are for their wellbeing and He is ready to pour out His blessings upon every Christian who stands firm in their faith during the testing time to come.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You are trying to assign prophecies about the 2A (2nd Advent) that don't apply to Acts 1:11. The 2A can't align with Acts 1:11. In the 2A, Jesus is ON CLOUDS and is seen by the whole world (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). Immediately, in the 2A, it does NOT align with Acts 1:11. Everything thereafter about Jesus' descent in the 2A DOES NOT ALIGN WITH Acts 1:11.

Your ship has sunk!

Zechariah 14:4 shows how wrong you are.
Your desperation to fit in a 'rapture' is apparent.

A lot of Christian people believe that there will be a "pre-tribulation rapture”, that is: they believe that before the beast of Revelation takes over, makes war on the saints, and demands his mark on each person's body, all Christians will be "raptured".

The word rapture and the idea of a removal of living people to heaven is not in the Bible.

The Bible does not teach a pre-tribulation rapture. It teaches tribulation. Because these people believe that they will not be here for the tribulation, they are not spiritually or physically preparing themselves, or their children, for what is to come.
They cannot see what is happening before their very eyes. They are so locked into deception that they cannot see nor hear. Not only are they deceived, they condemn anyone who does not believe in a pretribulation rapture.

The nature of deception is that you really believe what is false and that you disbelieve what is true. The only way that someone can come out of deception is if they really love the truth. If someone truly loves the scriptures, he will change his beliefs to conform to the scriptures when he sees that he is wrong. Unfortunately, most people feel that they have too much to lose by changing their false belief system. What if a dispensationalist preacher accepted the truth that he has been preaching a lie? Do you think his preacher friends will congratulate him for leaving deception? Do you think his dispensationalist congregation will be happy with him? There is a good chance that he will lose his tenure and position. Because many love the praise of men more than the praise of God, they will stay in deception rather lose their standing in their community. They cannot even afford to think that their beliefs may be wrong. You have to really love the truth to run this race.

Dispensationalism and the rapture is a heresy taught all across the face of the earth in Bible colleges and seminaries. It is preached and taught from pulpits, in books, and videos.

All this is really sad, because the truth of God’s Plans for His people, are for their wellbeing and He is ready to pour out His blessings upon every Christian who stands firm in their faith during the testing time to come.

You are wrong on all counts. The sequence Jesus followed in his ascension are these: He ascended by Himself; in the view of believers, only (His disciples); into clouds, then into Heaven. The reverse sequence would be: Jesus will descend by Himself (1 Th 4:16); He will descend behind clouds (1 Th 4:17) into the view of believers, only (1 Th 4:17).

The 2A immediately has Jesus in view of the whole world (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7), including over 4 billion unbelievers. Right there, on both matters, Jesus will be completely out of alignment with Acts 1:11. Prove me wrong, Mr. Sinking Ship.

 

[keras]

Prove me wrong

I am waiting for you to prove yourself right, which I know is impossible.
That is why you flail around with insignificant points and make rude accusations.

The idea of a rapture to heaven is a false teaching and those who grip onto it will be very disappointed. The Lord will also ask why you believed such a fanciful fable, 2 Timothy 4:3-4

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I am waiting for you to prove yourself right, which I know is impossible.
That is why you flail around with insignificant points and make rude accusations.

The idea of a rapture to heaven is a false teaching and those who grip onto it will be very disappointed. The Lord will also ask why you believed such a fanciful fable, 2 Timothy 4:3-4

The pre-Trib rapture is the next prophesied event in the Bible.

The proof is in Acts 1:9-11 and 1 Th 4:16-17.

Acts 1:11 serves as a prophetic guideline for the next coming of Jesus Christ. Here is verse 11 (ESV): and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Acts 1:11 is about "the same way" that the next return of Jesus will occur. Acts 1:11 isn’t about location; it’s explicitly about “the same way as you saw Him go into Heaven.” Jesus ascended by Himself, in the view of believers only (His disciples), and a heavenly cloud then took him out of their sight (Acts 1:9).

That next return of Jesus must follow the reverse-sequence of His ascension. The reverse-sequence would be: Jesus will descend by Himself, behind heavenly clouds, and into the view of believers, only.

In 1 Th 4:16, Jesus will descend by Himself. It’s also important that it doesn’t say He will be seen by the whole world. This is because, as evidence will show in verse 17, Jesus will descend behind heavenly clouds. His descension will end into the view of believers, only (also in verse 17).

In 1 Th 4:17, we won't see Jesus until we pass through clouds, to meet Him in the air. This is very important: we have to pass through clouds before we can even see Jesus. Those are the heavenly clouds that will keep Jesus from being seen by the world below in His descent. Jesus will descend by Himself, behind clouds, and into the view of believers only, as the exact reverse-sequence of His ascension.

It is impossible for that reverse-sequence to apply to the 2A (2nd Advent). The 2A starts with Jesus ON CLOUDS and in full view of the world (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). Therefore, right at the start of the 2A, Jesus will not be in alignment with Acts 1:11. In full, Jesus will be ON CLOUDS (not BEHIND clouds); He's not by Himself (Matt 24:31); and He will be in full view of billions of unbelievers, as they mourn (Matt 24:30). That's all perfect for the 2A, but it doesn't align in the least with Acts 1:11. Therefore, it is biblically impossible for the 2A to be the next prophesied return of Jesus Christ.

Those are the biblical facts of the next coming of Jesus Christ.

Your turn. Prove me wrong, and I mean PROVE me wrong. Silly assertions are not proof. Stand up and PROVE me wrong,