VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[keras]

1 Th 4:17 proves that Jesus draws us to Him. We are raptured from Earth and drawn into Heavenly clouds, to meet Jesus in the air. This is what is meant in John 14:3: and will TAKE YOU to myself.

But Jesus will have departed from heaven, on His way to Return as King of Kings..... Revelation 19:11-21
All the Prophesies from Rev 6:12 to then, must take place BEFORE 1 Thess 4:16-17 can happen.

This truth blows the false idea of a pre-trib rapture out of contention.
The gathering at the Return of Jesus, is as Paul says: to meet the Lord and then to go with Him to Jerusalem, where those who have proved their faith and trust in Jesus, will be rewarded with high positions in the Millennium Kingdom. Rev 5:9-10

Tell us how you think we can prove our faith and trust in Him for protection, if we are raptured away before anything nasty happens?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."



These verses in 2nd Thes are written because the Thessalonians were confused and thought that Christ could come back at any time. And Paul tells them not to be deceived and states that day shall not happen until the apostasy and son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God.

Liddell & Scott don't even get their second definition from the bible/manuscripts. It was from a commentary/document centuries after the NT.

Paul's teaching also coincides with Christ's teaching perfectly.

Again, I will follow Christ's teaching and believe that he has foretold us all things about the subject.

Please prove your claim about Liddell & Scott.

You are mistaken about what motivated 2 Th 2. Paul's flock was deceived by a fraudulent letter, made to look like it was from Paul stating that his flock had missed the rapture and were in the Trib. You have to appreciate the prior teachings by Paul about the rapture: 1 Th 1:10, 1 Th 4:16-17 and 1 Th 5:1-3. That fraudulent letter clearly stated that Paul's flock had missed the rapture and were in the Trib. That same assessment is even agreed to by the NLT version of 2 Th 2:2.

Paul was fixing a finely crafted deception against his flock of rapture students. He was correcting a deceptive letter, and he stated clearly in 2 Th 2:3 that the Trib can't be because the apostasia (defintion #2: physical departure) must happen FIRST. Keras, you have no way to invalidate what is in those verses. They are as stated from two different Bible versions. Those aren't opinions; they are proven facts.

 

[keras]

Keras, you have no way to invalidate what is in those verses. They are as stated from two different Bible versions. Those aren't opinions; they are proven facts.

It's simple. I just read and understand what the Prophetic Word is saying. Those verses, in 2 Thess 2:1-4 and in all the rest of the Bible never say that God will rapture His people to heaven.
Paul is just clarifying what must happen before Jesus Returns. 'apostasia' in my REBible is - the final rebellion.

If you believe in something and want others to agree with it, then the onus is on you to provide valid proof.
I have provided proofs that the faithful peoples of God will be living in all of the holy land in the end times, and after Jesus Returns, they will be the only peoples in the world.

A rapture to heaven is not Prophesied anywhere for them, to do that is tantamount to a failure of Gods plans and a reneging of His Promises to the Patriarchs.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It's simple. I just read and understand what the Prophetic Word is saying. Those verses, in 2 Thess 2:1-4 and in all the rest of the Bible never say that God will rapture His people to heaven.
Paul is just clarifying what must happen before Jesus Returns. 'apostasia' in my REBible is - the final rebellion.

If you believe in something and want others to agree with it, then the onus is on you to provide valid proof.
I have provided proofs that the faithful peoples of God will be living in all of the holy land in the end times, and after Jesus Returns, they will be the only peoples in the world.

A rapture to heaven is not Prophesied anywhere for them, to do that is tantamount to a failure of Gods plans and a reneging of His Promises to the Patriarchs.

You have not invalidated the truth of 2 Th 2:1-3 in the Geneva Bible (the Bible that preceded the KJV by 51 years). The timing of the rapture is pre-Trib. Paul went to special efforts to make that crystal clear in 2 Th 2:1-3 which accurately appear in Bible versions BEFORE KJV. Do you know that "falling away" in 2 Th 2:3 appeared first in the first KJV in 1611? Many folks like to make fun of pre-Tribbers saying the pre-Trib rapture was a theory invented by J.N. Darby in 1830. No, sir. It was in 2 Th 2:1-3 when Paul wrote those verses.

The key verse (verse 3) was the target of change to wipe out any mention of the pre-Trib rapture. KJV obliged, being the first to change verse 3 from definition #2 of apostasia (departure; disappearance) to the first definition of apostasia (defection; revolt). There is no way a falling away fits the context of 2 Th 2:1-3. The nearest falling away is in Matt 24:10, and on the timeline, that occurs pretty close to the midpoint (the midpoint is in Matt 24:15).

So, with the rapture in Scripture as a pre-Trib event, KJV apparently never thought anyone would see the glaring discrepancy of "falling away" in 2 Th 2:3 when the falling away in Scripture occurs near the midpoint. Therefore, the falseness of "falling away" in 2 Th 2:3 is abundantly provable. Last point: KJV has never said why they made the sea change they did in 2 Th 2:3, by replacing "departure" or "departing" with "falling away." They are hiding something, and I personally think it has a lot to do with the Roman Catholics, who were actually the first to change 2 Th 2:3 to "revolt." But, it's still definition #1 of apostasia. Keras, this is a genuine conspiracy in Bible publishing. I have written to publishers, and they will not reply. The truth will come out in Heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

But Jesus will have departed from heaven, on His way to Return as King of Kings..... Revelation 19:11-21
All the Prophesies from Rev 6:12 to then, must take place BEFORE 1 Thess 4:16-17 can happen.

This truth blows the false idea of a pre-trib rapture out of contention.
The gathering at the Return of Jesus, is as Paul says: to meet the Lord and then to go with Him to Jerusalem, where those who have proved their faith and trust in Jesus, will be rewarded with high positions in the Millennium Kingdom. Rev 5:9-10

Tell us how you think we can prove our faith and trust in Him for protection, if we are raptured away before anything nasty happens?

Rev 19:11-21 are about the 2A. This is where pre-Trib antagonists trip themselves up. The 2A occurs at the end of the Trib. The rapture is stated in the original 2 Th 2:3 to occur pre-Trib. That is backed up by John 14:2-3, Rev 3:10 and 1 Th 1:10. 1 Th 5:1-3 are about the wrath that occurs on day 1 of the Trib. That supports 1 Th 1:10 as being about the pre-Trib rapture.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Heaven is wherever the Father dwells in at the moment -House is abode. In his Fathers house there are many mones-dwelling places/abiding places/a staying.

But Christ did not say that when he comes he will take anyone to back to Heaven. He states

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Not one word about going to Heaven. He is going to receive them unto himself that where he is they may be also. -After he comes again.

Our future home is here on the new earth. But we can have that abiding rest/dwelling place right now with the Father/Son/Holy Spirit.

You can't cling to a few verses and claim they are about a pretrib rapture. You have to weigh them with all other scripture.

The subject of Christ's return is in the gospels, Matthew 24 Mark 13, Luke 21. Why do you not take to heart Christ's teaching there?

The disciples asks for signs about his coming and he gives them. What more can we want? There wouldn't be all this confusion if people just accepted Christ's teachings on the very subject of when he does come.

And it's noted in Mark 13, he has foretold all things about this subject-

Mark 13:23 "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things."

He's told us everything in advance so anyone can be ready if it should happen in their lifetime. And he didn't state one thing about a pretrib rapture. In fact he gives warnings, he tells people if someone were to say here is Christ or there is Christ, believe it "not". That's another warning.
His first warning is to not be deceived. Paul would later second that warning.

But he does not leave us lacking on this subject. If we believe the gospels on this subject, the rest of the word clicks into place with these gospels, nothing contrary to what Christ taught.

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

John 14:2 is wholly about Jesus saying He will prepare a home for each of us to live in, in Heaven ("in my Father's house"). The first ten words of verse 3 (above) continue His statement about that promise. Therefore, the context of Heaven is well-established. Jesus continues in verse 3 with "I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." You need to understand the word "that." In this context of Heaven, "that" is referring to a place previously mentioned, which is in verse 2: "In my Father's house ..." Jesus' reference to "where I am" is "in my Father's house." So, when He comes for us, we are raptured straight to our Father's house.

 

[JulieB67]

Rev 19:11-21 are about the 2A. This is where pre-Trib antagonists trip themselves up. The 2A occurs at the end of the Trib. The rapture is stated in the original 2 Th 2:3 to occur pre-Trib. That is backed up by John 14:2-3, Rev 3:10 and 1 Th 1:10. 1 Th 5:1-3 are about the wrath that occurs on day 1 of the Trib. That supports 1 Th 1:10 as being about the pre-Trib rapture.

Again, it's a shame that you can't take to heart Christ's teaching on the subject of his coming in the gospels. He teaches with such a simplicity about it. And the warnings are clear. There are no words about being raptured away beforehand. He starts with a warning about deception and it's continued warnings beyond that- "If they say Christ is here or there, believe it not." "Those that endure (in your patience, possess your souls) to the end, the same shall be saved and so on.

He's talking to Christians, the first Christians basically (his disciples) and leaves nothing out.

Of course you're going to respond with this is the Second Coming and yes, it is exactly that. And you'll continue to zig zag on the words "Coming and His coming" and say this coming is the SA and this coming is the rapture, not realizing how that makes no sense at all. Christ and the disciples are very specific in their teachings about "His coming".

We cannot split it into two separate events. And since Christ has foretold us all things in Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 on this subject he would not leave out a pretrib rapture.

ETA And both Christ and Paul state we will be here during the day of the Lord -

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

The day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. This verse tells us we can know in what "watch" the thief would come. Meaning the signs that Christ lays out. He states after the signs then we can look up and know our redemption is near. Christians will be here. This verse states it without a doubt.
Pretribbers aren't watching for those signs so they are in danger of having their house broken up.


I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

Very same day Paul is talking about in both of his letters to the Thessalonians.

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

True Christians on watch won't be thinking peace and safety.

"I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

Meaning again, we will be here during that "day".

-Luke 21:28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

Again, he's talking to his disciples, the first Christians.

But since you're going to continue to believe in a pretrib rapture, I'm curious- what in your opinion is the very first pretrib rapture verse in the NT?

 

[keras]

the Geneva Bible (the Bible that preceded the KJV by 51 years).

Good luck if you hang your beliefs on such error ridden and biased Bibles as the Geneva and the KJV.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Again, it's a shame that you can't take to heart Christ's teaching on the subject of his coming in the gospels. He teaches with such a simplicity about it. And the warnings are clear. There are no words about being raptured away beforehand. He starts with a warning about deception and it's continued warnings beyond that- "If they say Christ is here or there, believe it not." "Those that endure (in your patience, possess your souls) to the end, the same shall be saved and so on.

He's talking to Christians, the first Christians basically (his disciples) and leaves nothing out.

Of course you're going to respond with this is the Second Coming and yes, it is exactly that. And you'll continue to zig zag on the words "Coming and His coming" and say this coming is the SA and this coming is the rapture, not realizing how that makes no sense at all. Christ and the disciples are very specific in their teachings about "His coming".

We cannot split it into two separate events. And since Christ has foretold us all things in Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 on this subject he would not leave out a pretrib rapture.

But since you're going to continue to believe in a pretrib rapture, I'm curious- what in your opinion is the very first pretrib rapture verse in the NT?

Thank you, Julie. The pre-Trib verses in the NT are below, just not listed first, here.

The separation of the 2A and the rapture is most obvious in their trumpets. First, each trumpet is sounded only once. The trumpet in Matt 24:31 sends out angels to gather the elect. The trumpet in 1 Th 4:16 raises the dead in Christ. Those simple facts preclude the 2A and the rapture being the same event. But, there's much more that separates those two events.

The next coming of Jesus is dictated by Acts 1:11 (ESV): … “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Jesus ascended in the view of believers only (His disciples). He went behind clouds, then into Heaven. His next coming must be EXACTLY the reverse sequence from Acts 1:11.

In 1 Th 4:16, Jesus therefore must descend behind clouds, and then into the view of believers, only. 1 Th 4:17 proves that we believers will not see Jesus until we pass through clouds and then meet Him in the air. Therefore, Jesus truly is behind clouds the entire time of 1 Th 4:16-17, and He descends into the view of believers only.

You want Jesus to be "on clouds" and seen by the whole world at His next coming (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). Both of those actions would violate Acts 1:11. Therefore, the 2A can't be Jesus' next coming.

Proof of the pre-Trib timing of the rapture is in 2 Th 2:1-3. Here's the Greek 2 Th 2:3: μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,

The keyword is ἀποστασία. It translates to “apostasia.” In the Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon, apostasia’s 2nd definition is “departure / disappearance.” "Departure" in this 2nd definition is paired with “disappearance,” meaning "physical departure." If we have a context for the rapture, apostasia fits like a glove with its 2nd definition. The Holy Spirit guided the erudite Apostle Paul to use "apostasia" for this very reason.

Here are 2 Th 2:1-3. Please note that these verses were written after a very clever scheme was carried out to trick Paul’s flock. They were given a fraudulent letter allegedly from Paul, stating that they had missed the rapture and were in the Trib. That is the context that drove Paul to write exactly what he wrote.

2 Th 2:1 (Amplified Bible): Now in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to meet Him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

2 Th 2:2 (New Living Translation): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Paul had to counteract a fraudulent letter meant to deceive his precious Thessalonian flock. The ending words to 2 Th 2:3 are about Rev 6:1-2, the first seal of the seven seal judgments. The Trib starts with Rev 6:1-2. The whole flow of 2 Th 2:1-3 is the rapture occurs first, then the Trib.

 

[JulieB67]

The next coming of Jesus is dictated by Acts 1:11 (ESV): … “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.

It will be. He will descend (it is written that he will descend) and will touch down on the mount of Olives. If he stops midway that would not be in the same manner.

So you believe the very first pretrib rapture verse in the NT was in Acts spoken of by the angels and not Christ.

Ok, believe what you will. I will continue to believe that Christ foretold all things on the subject of his coming. And I also believe the disciples/apostles-Paul are a second witness to Christ's teaching on His coming.

We shall see....

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It will be. He will descend (it is written that he will descend) and will touch down on the mount of Olives. If he stops midway that would not be in the same manner.

So you believe the very first pretrib rapture verse in the NT was in Acts spoken of by the angels and not Christ.

Ok, believe what you will. I will continue to believe that Christ foretold all things on the subject of his coming. And I also believe the disciples/apostles-Paul are a second witness to Christ's teaching on His coming.

We shall see....

You are misquoting Acts 1:11. ... This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

It says "will come in the same way." It doesn't to the same place. I got it right.

 

[keras]

It says "will come in the same way." It doesn't to the same place. I got it right.

You have got it wrong.
The Prophet: Zechariah 14:4 On that Day, [ when He destroys His enemies at Armageddon] His feet will stand upon the Mount of Olives........

There is no such thing as a rapture to heaven for Gods people anywhere in the Bible. What we Christians are Promised; is great Blessings, as we be His witnesses to the nations, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:20 and His Light to the world; Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16
We can't do that if we are in heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You have got it wrong.
The Prophet: Zechariah 14:4 On that Day, [ when He destroys His enemies at Armageddon] His feet will stand upon the Mount of Olives........

There is no such thing as a rapture to heaven for Gods people anywhere in the Bible. What we Christians are Promised; is great Blessings, as we be His witnesses to the nations, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:20 and His Light to the world; Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16
We can't do that if we are in heaven

You have got it wrong.
The Prophet: Zechariah 14:4 On that Day, [ when He destroys His enemies at Armageddon] His feet will stand upon the Mount of Olives........

There is no such thing as a rapture to heaven for Gods people anywhere in the Bible. What we Christians are Promised; is great Blessings, as we be His witnesses to the nations, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:20 and His Light to the world; Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16
We can't do that if we are in heaven.

Zach 14:4 is a 2A verse. It's not a rapture verse.

John 14:3 is the rapture to Heaven. What does "in my Father's house" mean, again?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Zach 14:4 is a 2A verse. It's not a rapture verse.

John 14:3 is the rapture to Heaven. What does "in my Father's house" mean, again?

You're laughing at the precise interpretation of the Word of God.

Here's the KJV for John 14:2: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

True or false? Jesus went to Heaven (at the Ascension) to prepare a place for each of us in Heaven.

John 14:3 (KJV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The first part of verse 3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; ----- That is the rapture. It aligns with 1 Th 4:16-17. In verse 16, Jesus descends ("I will come again"). In verse 17, we pass through clouds and meet Jesus in the air ("and receive you unto myself").

The last part of John 14:3 (KJV): that where I am, there ye may be also. ----- ("that" refers to a place previously mentioned: "In my Father's house." Jesus is speaking about being in Heaven, and our being there, too, after the rapture.

 

[keras]

True or false? Jesus went to Heaven (at the Ascension) to prepare a place for each of us in Heaven.

True; and the Bible tells us when we get to live in that place: Revelation 21:1

The last part of John 14:3 (KJV): that where I am, there ye may be also. -

His faithful people will be where Jesus is, on earth for the Millennium. Isaiah 2:2-4, Revelation 20

There will be NO RAPTURE:
John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven.
John 17:15 ...I pray Father, you keep them from the evil one....
John 7:34...where I go you cannot come....
John 8:21-23....I am not of this world, you cannot go where I go....
Revelation 5:10....the saints will reign on earth....
ALL Words of Jesus that totally, utterly and completely refute the false and quite un biblical rapture theory.

John 14:1-3 is not talking about a rapture removal to heaven. Jesus says: I will come back.... from heaven to earth and then: we will always be with Him. THEN, the new Jerusalem and God and heaven come to the earth, Rev 21:1-7

Realize this, you rapture believers, a removal to heaven was never part of God's plan for ancient Israel and it isn't His plan now.
Do you say the Lord's prayer? ......Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven......Who is tasked to carry out His will on earth? Us Christians, that's who and hoping to be removed when things get tough is nothing short of escapism and cowardice.

I know these hard facts will cause upset for everyone who has been taught they will be raptured to heaven. But I have to do it, to shock you into finding out for yourselves what God really does want, rather than just believing what someone has told you.
The first belief to get out of your minds, is the Two People, Two Promises. There is only ONE people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6 Those righteous people will go to live in all of the Holy Land soon after all that area is de-populated by the Lord's Day of wrath. Ezekiel 34:11-31 describes it best.
That will be like heaven, as those true believers, who have proved their faith during the Day of cloud and darkness, live there and experience the amazing blessings of God to His people, as they display Gods glory to the nations. Ezekiel 39:27-29
More at logostelos.info; 37 articles refuting the false ‘rapture to heaven’ theory.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

True; and the Bible tells us when we get to live in that place: Revelation 21:1

His faithful people will be where Jesus is, on earth for the Millennium. Isaiah 2:2-4, Revelation 20

There will be NO RAPTURE:
John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven.
John 17:15 ...I pray Father, you keep them from the evil one....
John 7:34...where I go you cannot come....
John 8:21-23....I am not of this world, you cannot go where I go....
Revelation 5:10....the saints will reign on earth....
ALL Words of Jesus that totally, utterly and completely refute the false and quite un biblical rapture theory.

John 14:1-3 is not talking about a rapture removal to heaven. Jesus says: I will come back.... from heaven to earth and then: we will always be with Him. THEN, the new Jerusalem and God and heaven come to the earth, Rev 21:1-7

Realize this, you rapture believers, a removal to heaven was never part of God's plan for ancient Israel and it isn't His plan now.
Do you say the Lord's prayer? ......Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven......Who is tasked to carry out His will on earth? Us Christians, that's who and hoping to be removed when things get tough is nothing short of escapism and cowardice.

I know these hard facts will cause upset for everyone who has been taught they will be raptured to heaven. But I have to do it, to shock you into finding out for yourselves what God really does want, rather than just believing what someone has told you.
The first belief to get out of your minds, is the Two People, Two Promises. There is only ONE people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6 Those righteous people will go to live in all of the Holy Land soon after all that area is de-populated by the Lord's Day of wrath. Ezekiel 34:11-31 describes it best.
That will be like heaven, as those true believers, who have proved their faith during the Day of cloud and darkness, live there and experience the amazing blessings of God to His people, as they display Gods glory to the nations. Ezekiel 39:27-29
More at logostelos.info; 37 articles refuting the false ‘rapture to heaven’ theory.

Those verses you listed about Heaven are either about (1) we can't get to Heaven on our own power or (2) it's not time for us to go to Heaven. Rev 5:10 and the others you cited are about the MK. Every time a pre-Trib antagonist tries to shoot down the pre-Trib rapture, unrelated verses are cited typically being verses that only pertain to the 2A (such as Rev 1:7).

Jesus said in Rev 3:10 that we will be kept from the Trib. Even a grade-school grammar student would acknowledge that means "removed so as to not be a part of." We are not they "who dwell on the earth." That is provably a very demeaning phrase, but you want to assign it to yourself and your fellow brethren in Christ. That phrase only describes degenerate unbelievers, who, in this case, are the hardcore unbelievers who will never come to Christ. Rev 11:10 (KJV): And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

There is a great multitude that is converted in the Trib. The GM is millions of new converts in the Trib. Who primarily does the evangelizing that leads to their conversion? The 144k and the 2W. The GT is even halted in Rev 7:1-8 to honor the 144k as tremendous servants of God. It is their ministry that leads to the conversion of millions; the greatest revival in the Trib.

John 14:2-3 (KJV): In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

In all of verse 2, to the first comma in verse 3, the context is Heaven: "In my Father's house" and "if I go and prepare a place for you." However, what verse 3 begins with is a conditional statement because it begins with "And if ...." In full, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; ----- It's a conditional statement ending with a semicolon, which allows for immediate clarification.

The next word "that" reintroduces a prior context; and the word "there" emphasizes that same and prior context: "that where I am, there you may be also." Jesus was emphatically re-referring to "my Father's house." Therefore, John 14:2-3 follow the same general script as in 1 Th 4:16-17. Jesus will descend, assemble us to Him (2 Th 2:1 and 1 Th 4:17) and thereby take us straight up to Heaven. This is not "the new Heaven" or else Jesus would have said so.

 

[keras]

Jesus will descend, assemble us to Him (2 Th 2:1 and 1 Th 4:17) and thereby take us straight up to Heaven

This is a blatant addition to scripture.
Jesus has departed from heaven, He does not go back there, He reigns on earth for the next thousand years, then hands the Kingdom back to the Father 1 Corinthians 15:24, and God will then dwell with mankind on the new earth. Rev 21:1`-7

Our Hope and our Destiny:
The Prophetic Word tells us how the Lord will save and protect His people during His terrible Day of wrath, the soon to happen Sixth Seal punishment of the ungodly peoples and the reset of our civilization.
Then those who kept strong in their faith will be gathered and will migrate into all of the holy Land. Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16 and Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, are some of the best prophesies about this.

We Christians are the Lord's people, His chosen; John 15:18, 1 Peter 2:8-10, and we are the people; nation, who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43.

We will, in the holy Land be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Acts 13:47, Ezekiel 39:27
Basically there is no need for anyone, other than the 2 Witnesses to go to heaven, Revelation 11:12, and they do not stay there, as Jesus Returns just then and they are resurrected along with all the rest of the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4

The whole idea of a rapture removal of Christians to heaven, is not part of God's plan for His people. We are made to live on earth, God has angels in heaven.
Therefore, a body change is not necessary or logical, before the final wrap up after the Millennium and only then will all those whose names are written in the Book of Life, receive immortality and be with God for Eternity, when God and therefore heaven; will be on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is a blatant addition to scripture.
Jesus has departed from heaven, He does not go back there, He reigns on earth for the next thousand years, then hands the Kingdom back to the Father 1 Corinthians 15:24, and God will then dwell with mankind on the new earth. Rev 21:1`-7

Our Hope and our Destiny:
The Prophetic Word tells us how the Lord will save and protect His people during His terrible Day of wrath, the soon to happen Sixth Seal punishment of the ungodly peoples and the reset of our civilization.
Then those who kept strong in their faith will be gathered and will migrate into all of the holy Land. Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16 and Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, are some of the best prophesies about this.

We Christians are the Lord's people, His chosen; John 15:18, 1 Peter 2:8-10, and we are the people; nation, who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43.

We will, in the holy Land be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Acts 13:47, Ezekiel 39:27
Basically there is no need for anyone, other than the 2 Witnesses to go to heaven, Revelation 11:12, and they do not stay there, as Jesus Returns just then and they are resurrected along with all the rest of the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4

The whole idea of a rapture removal of Christians to heaven, is not part of God's plan for His people. We are made to live on earth, God has angels in heaven.
Therefore, a body change is not necessary or logical, before the final wrap up after the Millennium and only then will all those whose names are written in the Book of Life, receive immortality and be with God for Eternity, when God and therefore heaven; will be on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

This is a blatant addition to scripture.
Jesus has departed from heaven, He does not go back there, He reigns on earth for the next thousand years, then hands the Kingdom back to the Father 1 Corinthians 15:24, and God will then dwell with mankind on the new earth. Rev 21:1`-7

Our Hope and our Destiny:
The Prophetic Word tells us how the Lord will save and protect His people during His terrible Day of wrath, the soon to happen Sixth Seal punishment of the ungodly peoples and the reset of our civilization.
Then those who kept strong in their faith will be gathered and will migrate into all of the holy Land. Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16 and Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, are some of the best prophesies about this.

We Christians are the Lord's people, His chosen; John 15:18, 1 Peter 2:8-10, and we are the people; nation, who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43.

We will, in the holy Land be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Acts 13:47, Ezekiel 39:27
Basically there is no need for anyone, other than the 2 Witnesses to go to heaven, Revelation 11:12, and they do not stay there, as Jesus Returns just then and they are resurrected along with all the rest of the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4

The whole idea of a rapture removal of Christians to heaven, is not part of God's plan for His people. We are made to live on earth, God has angels in heaven.
Therefore, a body change is not necessary or logical, before the final wrap up after the Millennium and only then will all those whose names are written in the Book of Life, receive immortality and be with God for Eternity, when God and therefore heaven; will be on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

Jesus has departed from Heaven? That's past tense. The last we know about Jesus is he ascended to Heaven (Acts 1:9). When has He since departed from Heaven?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is a blatant addition to scripture.
Jesus has departed from heaven, He does not go back there, He reigns on earth for the next thousand years, then hands the Kingdom back to the Father 1 Corinthians 15:24, and God will then dwell with mankind on the new earth. Rev 21:1`-7

Our Hope and our Destiny:
The Prophetic Word tells us how the Lord will save and protect His people during His terrible Day of wrath, the soon to happen Sixth Seal punishment of the ungodly peoples and the reset of our civilization.
Then those who kept strong in their faith will be gathered and will migrate into all of the holy Land. Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16 and Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, are some of the best prophesies about this.

We Christians are the Lord's people, His chosen; John 15:18, 1 Peter 2:8-10, and we are the people; nation, who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43.

We will, in the holy Land be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Acts 13:47, Ezekiel 39:27
Basically there is no need for anyone, other than the 2 Witnesses to go to heaven, Revelation 11:12, and they do not stay there, as Jesus Returns just then and they are resurrected along with all the rest of the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4

The whole idea of a rapture removal of Christians to heaven, is not part of God's plan for His people. We are made to live on earth, God has angels in heaven.
Therefore, a body change is not necessary or logical, before the final wrap up after the Millennium and only then will all those whose names are written in the Book of Life, receive immortality and be with God for Eternity, when God and therefore heaven; will be on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

2 Th 2:1 (NIV): Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

It says we are "gathered to him." There is no other gathering in the Bible, to him. This is the rapture, to Heaven.

This is a blatant addition to scripture.
Jesus has departed from heaven, He does not go back there, He reigns on earth for the next thousand years, then hands the Kingdom back to the Father 1 Corinthians 15:24, and God will then dwell with mankind on the new earth. Rev 21:1`-7

Our Hope and our Destiny:
The Prophetic Word tells us how the Lord will save and protect His people during His terrible Day of wrath, the soon to happen Sixth Seal punishment of the ungodly peoples and the reset of our civilization.
Then those who kept strong in their faith will be gathered and will migrate into all of the holy Land. Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16 and Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26, are some of the best prophesies about this.

We Christians are the Lord's people, His chosen; John 15:18, 1 Peter 2:8-10, and we are the people; nation, who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43.

We will, in the holy Land be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Acts 13:47, Ezekiel 39:27
Basically there is no need for anyone, other than the 2 Witnesses to go to heaven, Revelation 11:12, and they do not stay there, as Jesus Returns just then and they are resurrected along with all the rest of the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4

The whole idea of a rapture removal of Christians to heaven, is not part of God's plan for His people. We are made to live on earth, God has angels in heaven.
Therefore, a body change is not necessary or logical, before the final wrap up after the Millennium and only then will all those whose names are written in the Book of Life, receive immortality and be with God for Eternity, when God and therefore heaven; will be on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

2 Th 2:1 (NIV): Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

It says we are "gathered to him." There is no other gathering in the Bible, to him. This is the rapture, to Heaven.

1 Th 4:17 (NLT): Then, together with them, we ... will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.

That is the same rapture. We are "caught up" to Jesus. In other words, just as in 2 Th 2:1, we are gathered to Him. 1 Th 4:17 continues with: Then we will be with the Lord forever. We therefore go straight to Heaven.

Prove it means otherwise. The proof would be another Bible verse that says that after we are gathered up into the air to meet Jesus, we come back down, instead.

 

[lismore]

Yes! And soon.