Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible?

[Diamond72]

There is no rapture, there is a second coming.

We all are raptured when we die. The rapture people about is when a larger number of people are raptured at the same time. For me the only way this can happen is if there were a world wide nuclear war. The only place in the Bible that we read about a nuclear explosion is at Armageddon.

Revelation 15:2
And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name. They held harps given them by God

Only sand turns into glass. I did a study and there is sand at Armageddon.

 

[keras]

The Bible has to be translated and interpreted.

My Revised English Bible is one of the best translations, in modern English.
I trust its truth and accuracy, if not then we are lost and God has deceived us.

when is Jesus going to return?

After the Seventh Trumpet. Rev 16:16-18, Rev 19:11-21
We Christians will see His glorious Return and will say: Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.

Paul is clear to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord, where He is at

You make a serious error. Paul merely says that is what he desires, not what will happen to him, or to us.

 

[oikonomia]

Usage [?]

1. the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
   1. sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the "Holy" Spirit)
   2. sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")
   3. never referred to as a depersonalised force
2. the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
   1. the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
   2. the soul

The human spirit is distinguished from the human soul especially clearly in the New Testament.
And it is important to learn more and more experiencially how to discern the difference.

The living and operative word of God helps to train us to learn "O, now I am just in my soul - my self" and
"Praise the Lord now I sense my spirit and the Lord within me."

This discerning the difference must become subjective and more than just doctrinal knowledge.

For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (Heb 4:12)

You see the spirit and the soul at first are two stuck together. Usually the soul dominates and the spirit is subjegated - even
imprisoned and nullified. Even after it is reborn in regeneration it is use to being underneath the power of the soul - the self.

The living word taken is able to divine the soul and spirit.
When we come to the word to touch God and with a willingness for it to change our life, it pierces to the division of soul and spirit.

And we, along with the all knowing God, can detect when we are soul is too strong and when our
spirit is coming forth to influence our soul. In other words when Christ in our spirit is coming up and out of our being.

Here we see Paul's prayer that Christians be strengthened into their regenerated spirit which he calls "the inner man."

For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father, . . .
That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory,
to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, (Eph. 4:14,16)

Our intouchness with our regenerated spirit is too weak in the beginning.
We are still use to mostly living in our self.
The Apostle's prayer is that we would not remain in this weaker soul centered living.

He petitions the Father that we would be energized and strengthened by His Spirit
into our spirit, the inner man. The self must turn to the Lord within and no longer be independent and so prevailing.
The empowering of the Lord in the inner man must bring the soul under the Lord in our spirit.

Here we see that the Lord has joined Himself in us to the inner man - the reborn spirit.
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. (1 Cor. 6:17)

 

[oikonomia]

Christ's full salvation reaches not only the environment to ultimately make a new heaven and a new earth.
Something must precede this. That is a salvation of the three parts of man - the spirit and soul and body.

And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23)

He starts this sanctification of our whole being from the innermost- the inner man of the spirit.
Then from center to circumference He spreads His life out into the soul.
The final stage is His life spreading out into the body.

Being made holy from the center to the circumference of man he is "sanctified wholly"
Life being dispensed into the center and moving out saturating all three parts we are "preserved complete".

This regeneration followed by transformation culminating in transfiguration
must occur in every saved saint before God will bring totally in a new universe as an outward environment.

 

[oikonomia]

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Of course this has to taken relatvely. For the Lord Jesus is with the believers always until the consummation of the age (Matt. 28:20).
We who have His Spirit are with Lord while living. When our body ceases to live we are more with the Lord as
going in our soul and spirit to paradise under the earth. Then we are more with the Lord in Abraham's bosom.

So Second Corinthian 5:6 is with the Lord relatively more yet not yet going to heaven.

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

This is absolutely true. We stand on His word and His precious promises. And He more and more makes His home in
our hearts through our faith. (Eph. 3:17)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Remember this has to be in a relative sense. For where two or three are gathered together in His name
He is in their midst. (Matt. 18:20) He is Emmanuel - God with us. (Matt. 1:23) And He is the Lord who is with our spirit.
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you. (2 Tim. 4:22)

The Lord Jesus stood with Paul and strengthend him in intense perscution.
But the Lord stood with me and empowered me . . . (2 Tim. 4:17)

I think we should not give anyone the impression that you must die to be with the Lord.
This makes God the God of death. Ie. "You have to die to be in the realm of God. There in death God is."

Now He comforts us in His presence if we are believers who expire, who die in the Lord.
Certainly, the apostle considered that far better than being alive suffering imprisonment and sore trials.
But I am constrained between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for this is far better; (Phil. 1:23)

We know he chose to remain with the living saints for their encouragement. We are all glad he did.
My point is for him to die put him more in the presence of the Lord in a relative sense.

He had no desire to be in heaven though with an unclothed soul, found naked.
He desired to be clothed upon with a transfigured resurrected body to be properly prepared to be with Christ as God desired.

For we know that if our earthly tabernacle dwelling is taken down, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. For also in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our dwelling place from heaven,

If indeed, being clothed, we will not be found naked. For also, we who are in this tabernacle groan,
being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed,
but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. (2 Cor. 5:1-4)

I agree with you we are not going to spend eternity in heaven but I do believe that the believer who dies goes in soul, spirit to be with the Lord.

I also believe this.

From what I understand you are saying there is no pre-trib rapture to heaven.

No, that is not what I am saying. I believe in a selective rapture to the third heaven of those who He deems have
fulfilled the condition. That is to watch to live in His presence while on earth.

Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:41,42)

The TWO in each case is TWO Christians.
He says "you do not know on what day your Lord comes."
The Christians acknowledge Jesus as their Lord. And the rapture here is not based solely on justification by faith but that
plus "watching".

So the pre-great tribulation is to heaven (Rev. 12:5; 14:1-5) but the majority rapture at its end is "to the air" (1 Thess. 4:17).

Many are confused about this. Christ first raptures a remnant of overcomers - a stronger "man-child" to heaven among
the sleeping saints of the past. (Rev. 12:5)
And around the same time a remnant of those watching to live in Spirit are raptured to the same place as "firstfruits" (Rev. 14:1-5)

Now we can speak of these as "going to heaven". Among the living and sleeping saints there is a minority to be rapture or resurrected and raptured to the third heaven. But they do not remain there forever. The Lord after rapturing them comes down with them to
hover over the earth secretively in a cloud for a period of time. Earth and the cosmic forces will reel at His presence during these
3.5 years.

At the end He who is concealed with a cloud and clothed in this pavillion of unseen secrecy will then
sit upon the cloud and come in glorious manifestation over the Holy Land. At this time
the Christians who were left who pass through the great tribulation are raptured at the last trumpet.

Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will be always with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:16,17)

You can see that the early rapture is indeed a "going to heaven" but Christ comes down to the atmosphere of the planet.
And those who were not taken but passed through the great tribulation are then raptured to the clouds in the air.
We cannot speak so confidently of the latter majority group as "going to heaven."

The first rapture of a minority remnant is secretive and pre tribulation.
The second rapture of a majority who have ripened under the heat of passing through the great tribulation are
taken to the air where Jesus sits on the cloud with grand manifestation.

If that is your position I do agree with that.

I believe in a pre-great tribulation rapture to heaven of a minority remnant.
They will have heeded the warning to watch. This will not be the majority of the church.

We cannot boast of knowing that we will be of that group.
We can only take heed to the exhortation and live as if we are serious He may come upon us at any moment.
We must be about feeding and nourishing our fellow believers and sharing the gospel.
This is part pf watching to be in the Lord and in the things of the Lord.

For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming.
Who then is the faithful and prudent slave, whom the master has set over his household to give them food at the proper time?

Blessed is that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
Truly I say to you that he will set him over all his possessions.

I believe this is not a matter of sheer busy activity. It is a matter of a living which is Jesus Christ before men.
Even while working at day or sleeping on a bed we are in endevouring to watch to live in His presence.

I tell you, In that night there will be two on one bed; the one will be taken and the other will be left.
There will be two women grinding together; the one will be taken but the other will be left.
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left. (Luke 17:34-36)

A traditional mistake I think is to assume the TWO means a Christian and a none Christian.
The assumption is the Christian is taken and the unbeliever is left.
Everything about the teaching suggests though that the TWO are TWO Christian disciples.
One has built up a habit of living watching and one is weak and deficient in this.

Remember, the two means two eternally saved believers in Jesus.

At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:40-42)

For this thread's purpose, only the first early remnant group of living plus dead in Christ resurrected / raptured can be said
to be "going to heaven".

To further support the fact that the dead in Christ do go to heaven to be with the Lord until he returns I offer the passages below.


Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Thankyou. However "underneath the altar" should not mean in heaven but underneath the earth in paradise.
Jesus took the believing thief to paradise on the day He died which was in the heart of the earth.

All the verses required to demonstrate this I can provide is requested in another post.

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

These souls are in heaven.

These souls are underneath the altar which is the earth where they sacrificed their lives in martyrdom.
Their prayer of vindication is answered when they are resurrected and raptured to the throne of God as the "man-child" in chapter 12.

Of the whole body of God's people since Adam the majority have been the weaker vessel - the woman clothed in light.
But within the unversal woman of light, the weaker vessel, a minority have risen to the normal standard of overcoming
through God's strenthening. This minority of normal victors is called the "man-child". He is brought forth from within
the larger body of the weaker vessel, the bright woman of universal light.

And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; And she was with child, and she cried out, travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth. (Rev. 12:1,2)

She is constantly thoughout history opposed by Satan to make sure the stronger ones of normal overcoming do not come from her.

And another sign was seen in heaven; and behold, there was a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. And his tail drags away the third part of the stars of heaven, and he cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bring forth, so that when she brings forth he might devour her child. (vs. 3,4)

In spite of this fierce opposition that stronger ones would not be produced from the majority, they are and are resurrected and
raptured to heaven.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. (Rev. 12:5,6)

These stronger ones (who are simply normal rather than abnormal or subnormal weaker ones) will reign with Christ.
They may be said to have gone to heaven.

Compare what the do with Christ, co-reign with Him as strong shepherds of the nations.

And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; (Rev. 19:14,15a)

And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father; (Rev. 2:26,27)

You have other noteworthy comments which I may reply to latter.
Here I have tried to show that as far as "going to heaven " is concerned we see
a remnant minority of watching ones are taken there for a season before they descend with Christ to the air
and then to the earth.

 

[keras]

Here I have tried to show that as far as "going to heaven " is concerned we see
a remnant minority of watching ones are taken there for a season before they descend with Christ to the air
and then to the earth.

And you have failed.
The Bible never says the Lord will take anyone to live in heaven. Here is what really will happen:

Zechariah 8:2-23 Again, the word of the Lord came to me; I am very jealous for My holy Land, I am burning with jealousy for her. This is what the Lord says; I will return to Zion and dwell in Jerusalem, it will be called the City of Faithfulness and the Temple mount will be called the Holy Mountain.
This is what the Lord Almighty says; Once again old people and children will inhabit the streets of Jerusalem. Even if this may seem impossible to the remnant of this nation, will it be impossible for Me?

I am about to rescue My people from countries in the East and West and bring them back to live in Jerusalem. They will be My people and I shall be their God, in faithfulness and justice.

These are the words of the Lord of Hosts; Take heart, all you who now hear that the Temple is to be rebuilt as the prophets foretold. Before that time, there was no hiring of man or beast, because of your enemies, for I had set every man against his neighbour. But, I do not feel the same toward the remnant of this people as I did in former days, says the Lord of Hosts. For they will sow in safety, I will give them rain and the Land will yield it’s produce. This is the inheritance of My people. To the nations you, House of Judah and House of Israel, have become as a curse; now I shall save you – you will become proverbial as a blessing. Courage, do not lose heart!

These are the words of the Lord; Just as I determined to bring disaster on you when your forefathers made Me angry, so I have resolved to do good again to Jerusalem and Judah. Do not be afraid. This is what you must do; speak the truth to each other and administer true justice in your courts. Do not plot evil and do not love perjury, for all these I hate. This is the word of the Lord.

These are the words of the Lord; Keep the fasts of the 4th, 5th, 7th and 10th months. They will be festivals of joy for Judah. Love truth and peace. In future, nations and peoples will come to Jerusalem to entreat the favour of the Lord. In those days, 10 people from every nation will take hold of a Jew and say; Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you. Ref; REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.

‘I am about to rescue My people…they will be My people and I will be their God’. We know from New Testament teaching, that the Lord’s people are every true Christian person, Jew or Gentile. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Rev 5:9-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16 Now I shall take thought for My sheep…I will rescue them from wherever they are scattered in the Day of cloud and darkness. I shall bring them home, to their own Land and make them prosper. Isaiah 60:4, Jeremiah 31:1-6, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Amos 9:14

‘the Day of cloud and darkness’, is the Day of the Lord’s wrath, a CME sunstrike that will depopulate the entire holy Land area, also causing worldwide devastation. Isaiah 30:25-30, Joel 2:30-32

‘I have set every man against his neighbour’. This is the current situation in the Middle East.

‘Courage, do not lose heart’. This proves that we must pass through the terrible testing and trials of the forthcoming Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. A literal Day of fire from the sky, of earthquakes, storm winds and tsunamis. It will be a period of ‘cloud and darkness’, from the smoke and ash clouds that will envelope the earth. Zeph. 1:15, Matt.24:29,Joel 2:1-2

‘Peoples will come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord, in the new Temple’. From the context of this quote and from other prophesies, it is clear that this will happen before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial, worldwide reign. Ezekiel 43:4…the Shekinah Glory of God will come into the Temple by the East gate. And even though verse 23 mentions a Jew, as one who enjoys the Lord’s favour, we know from verse 13 and many other prophesies that Christians from every nation and language, Isaiah 56:1-8, will become citizens of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, the new nation formed after the judgement/punishment of fire has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Amos 1:2-15

 

[oikonomia]

And you have failed.
The Bible never says the Lord will take anyone to live in heaven. Here is what really will happen:

Since you seemed to have missed the words "for a season" above and argue that I said "live in heaven"
you not arguing against what I wrote.

Maybe it would be better to go find someone who actually wrote the point you wish to dispute.
"For a season" means not live permenantly. So what I eplained doesn't negate many of the things you wrote about Israel / Jerusalem.

 

[keras]

Since you seemed to have missed the words "for a season" above and argue that I said "live in heaven"
you not arguing against what I wrote.

Maybe it would be better to go find someone who actually wrote the point you wish to dispute.
"For a season" means not live permenantly. So what I eplained doesn't negate many of the things you wrote about Israel / Jerusalem.

This idea is just a diversion and an excuse for a wrong belief.
Going anywhere and staying overnight, is living there. Short time or for years. Many rapture to heaven believers say that 'short term' will be 3 1/2 years. That certainly fits with living in heaven.

But until you or anyone who thinks they will be taken to live in heaven, can provide a scripture which proves that incredible theory, then the whole doctrine should go into the waste bin.
Believe what Zechariah 8 says. Now THAT will be amazing as we fulfil our destiny of being Gods people in His holy Land.

 

[oikonomia]

This idea is just a diversion and an excuse for a wrong belief.
Going anywhere and staying overnight, is living there. Short time or for years. Many rapture to heaven believers say that 'short term' will be 3 1/2 years. That certainly fits with living in heaven.

It is living in heaven certainly until the marriage feast of the Lamb.
Then the bridal army comes down to the earth with the Bridegroom to fight at Armageddon.
That is all in Revelation 19. We've been through this before. [Capitals are mine]


Rv. 19:1 After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of A GREAT MULTITUDE IN HEAVEN, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God.

Rv 19:2 For true and righteous are His judgments; for He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and He avenged the blood of His slaves at her hand.

Rv 19:3 And a second time they said, Hallelujah! And her smoke goes up forever and ever.

Rv 19:4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshipped God, who sits upon the throne, saying, Amen, Hallelujah!

Rv 19:5 And a voice came out from the throne, saying, Praise our God, all His slaves and those who fear Him, the small and the great.

Rv 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunders, saying, Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.

Rv 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, FOR THE MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB HAS COME, AND HIS WIFE HAS MADE HERSELF READY.

Rv 19:8 And it was given to her that she should be CLOTHED IN FINE LINEN, BRIGHT AND CLEAN; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints.

Rv 19:9 And he said to me, Write, BLESSED ARE THEY WHO ARE CALLED TO THE MIRRAGE DINNER OF THE LAMB. And he said to me, These are the true words of God.

Rv 19:10 And I fell before his feet to worship him. And he said to me, Do not do this. I am your fellow slave and a fellow slave of your brothers who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy.

Rv 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sits on it called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

Rv 19:12 And His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems, and He has a name written which no one knows but Himself.

Rv 19:13 And He is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and His name is called the Word of God.

Rv 19:14 AND THE ARMIES WHICH ARE IN HEAVEN FOLLOWED HIM on white horses, DRESSED IN FINE LINEN, WHITE AND CLEAN.

Rv 19:15 And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

Rv 19:16 And He has on His garment and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

[contratodo]

Rv 19:14 AND THE ARMIES WHICH ARE IN HEAVEN FOLLOWED HIM on white horses, DRESSED IN FINE LINEN, WHITE AND CLEAN.

I believe that verse is not translated correctly in most Bibles.
You will see that "which were" is in italics, in a good kjv Bible, denoting that it is an added in phrase.
(on biblehub for the king James translation you will see 'which were' in italics)
And in Genesis 1:8 the word "heaven" is defined for us as "the firmament", "the sky".

Therefore the correct translation of Rv 19:14 is,
"And the armies in the sky followed Him on white horses...."


Both 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 are about the same event, denoted by the trumpet sounding.
We will be caught up in the air in the clouds, in the sky, in the twinkling of an eye.
In a moment we will just be up in the sky with Jesus, immortal and on horses.

Joel chapter 2 describes the Lords army as well.
"For the Lord shall utter His voice before His army" Joel 2:11

"the rest were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded from His mouth" Revelation 19:21

 

[oikonomia]

I believe that verse is not translated correctly in most Bibles.
You will see that "which were" is in italics, in a good kjv Bible, denoting that it is an added in phrase.

Do you have a basic problem other than translation issues with an army of victorious saints accompanying
Christ from heaven? Please be honest if you don't like the idea besides your questionable translation issues.

The voices heard as "a great multitude" are heard in heaven not in the sky.
And it is the same victorious multitude with Christ as He comes down to war.

After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God. (Rev. 19:1)

First then I would ask - Is there something about a great multitude in heaven (other than angels) which bothers you?

(on biblehub for the king James translation you will see 'which were' in italics)
And in Genesis 1:8 the word "heaven" is defined for us as "the firmament", "the sky".

The Recovery Version which I usually quote uses italics also when words are supplied which are strictly not in the original.
I do not see italics used in this Revelation 19:14 - (except for the conjunction and between white, clean)
And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

I see no need yet to jump over to Genesis 1:8.

What John is seeing there is a great multitude in heaven whose wedding garment also qualifies
as their fighting armor.

Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.
And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints. (Rev. 19:7,8)
Compare:
And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (v.14)

Do you have some problem with the qualification to meet the Lord's satisfaction is ALSO
the qualification for victorious spiritual warfare?

These garments stand for the righteousnesses of the saints. That is righteous living, righteous deeds, righteous behaviors pleasing to
the Bridegroom who longs to be joined with them in marriage. That righteousness-ES of the saints is both their
garment for Christ's satisfaction and their equiping for battle with Him over His enemies

You should fine this perfectly consistent with the whole rest of the Bible from Genesis onward.
Where God's loving standard of righteousness was met there also was the victory of the saints over His and their enemies.

Therefore the correct translation of Rv 19:14 is,
"And the armies in the sky followed Him on white horses...."

I don't think that is right. I think that is an rendering with an agenda behind it for some perculiar reason.
I checked Bible Hub. And I am willing to look more into this.

The great mutitude celebrating above this are not in the sky but in heaven.
So Christ being with them has not yet left the third heaven to descend to the sky of the earth.
They were raptured up there to the third heaven.

Both 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 are about the same event,

I believe that they are about the same event.
1 Thess. 4:16-17 emphasises catching up to the clouds in rapture.
1 Cor. 15:51-58 emphasis transfiguration of the body.

I wrote nothing which calls for not seeing these two passages as referring to the same event.

What you might miss is that a portion of the universal church will be resurrected/ transfigured/ and raptured to the third heavens
roughly 3.5 years before the event of 1 Thess. 4:16-17 and 1 Cor. 15:51-58.

That is why you have the total crop of God's people in two groups - firstfruits (Rev. 14:1-5) and harvest (Rev. 14:14-16).
And in between the taking of Firstfruits early and Harvest late you find the basic events of the great tribulation (Rev. 14:6-13)

And that is also why you have a remnant man-child rapture out from a larger body to the throne of God in heaven (Rev. 12:5,10-12)
and the larger body from whom he came left on earth to pass through the great tribulation (Rev. 12:6,12-17).

In both cases the early overcomers among the living (firstfruits) and overcomers to be resurrected 3.5 years before the GT (man-child)
TOGETHER form the great multitude celebrating in Revelation 19 and coming down with Christ to battle at Armegeddoon

denoted by the trumpet sounding.
We will be caught up in the air in the clouds, in the sky, in the twinkling of an eye.
In a moment we will just be up in the sky with Jesus, immortal and on horses.

This isn't right. The great multitude has thier rejoicing heard in heaven.
After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God. (Rev. 19:1)

The remnant firstfruits multitude redeemed from the earth also are heard from heaven.
And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harp-singers playing on their harps. (Rev. 14:2)

The remnant man-child also are the "THEY" whose celebration is happening in heaven. [my caps]

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

And THEY overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and THEY loved not their soul-life even unto death. Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (Rev. 12:10-12)

All three visions take place before the last trumpet.
And it is at the last trumpet are the resurrection and rapture of those who are alive and left remaining (1 Thess. 4:16,17; 1 Cor. 15:51-58)

Joel chapter 2 describes the Lords army as well.
"For the Lord shall utter His voice before His army" Joel 2:11

"the rest were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded from His mouth" Revelation 19:21

The two verses are very good. But they don't prove or indicate that some will be raptured
from the living and the dead to the third heaven and descend with Christ to the earth.

As for the Lord alone slaying His enemies, remember that the victorious saints fight by praising too.
The armies of Jehovah won a great victory on earth at the time of Jehosaphat.
And the praising priests went before. Their praising was their astrounding victory behind Jehovah.

See Second Chronicles chapter 20.

 

[Jimmy It]

Where in the Bible do people get the concept of God wanting the saved to "go to heaven" forever?

I say the degree that people do not see what the church is is indiicated by how strong is
their belief that God wants them to "go to heaven" to be in heaven forever.

Demonstrate that "going to heaven" forever as God's desire for the saved is biblical teaching.

Heaven is the stars, the sky, the visible arch of the sky, the air. I've flown in the heavens.

 

[keras]

It is living in heaven certainly until the marriage feast of the Lamb.
Then the bridal army comes down to the earth with the Bridegroom to fight at Armageddon.

This is purely assumed and guessed at. Nowhere does Bible Prophecy say any humans, dead or alive; stay for any time longer than to be given a vision.
Can people not realize how incredible and unbelievable is the idea that humans could go to live with God in heaven and accompany Jesus at His glorious Return? Fairy tales gone mad!

Also; the vast multitude that John sees in Revelation 7:9, are not in heaven, or are they dead people. They are the faithful peoples, gathered from around the world, as many Prophesies tell will happen, soon after the holy Land is cleared and cleansed. Ezekiel 34:31-34, +

 

[oikonomia]

Heaven is the stars, the sky, the visible arch of the sky, the air. I've flown in the heavens.

What is "far above all the heavens" then?

He who descended, He is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens that He might fill all things.) (Eph. 4:10)

What is it for Christ to pass through the heavens then?

Having therefore a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens,
Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast the confession. (Heb. 4:14)

 

[oikonomia]

This is purely assumed and guessed at. Nowhere does Bible Prophecy say any humans, dead or alive; stay for any time longer than to be given a vision.

I have explained this to you before. You just don't take it.

The man-child, a corporate "they" (Rev. 12:10,11) are caught up to the throne of God for at leat 3.5 years while
the larger body who brought him forth is persecuted on the earth for that long.

And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bring forth, so that when she brings forth he might devour her child.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. (Rev. 12:4b-6)

Nothing about this stops you from going to Israel to help build the new physical temple there.
If that is where you heart is the man-child being raptured to heaven doesn't stop you.
I don't know why you wish to oppose the revelation.

Can people not realize how incredible and unbelievable is the idea that humans could go to live with God in heaven and accompany Jesus at His glorious Return? Fairy tales gone mad!

Some of us take seriously God's word when John heard a great multitude in heaven. I'm sorry your faith is weak here.

After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God. (Rev. 19:1)

Also; the vast multitude that John sees in Revelation 7:9, are not in heaven, or are they dead people. They are the faithful peoples, gathered from around the world, as many Prophesies tell will happen, soon after the holy Land is cleared and cleansed. Ezekiel 34:31-34, +

After these things I saw, and behold, there was a great multitude which no one could number, out of every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes and palm branches in their hands. (Rev. 7:9)

I take this as a great multitude resurrected or otherwise alive and preserved not a great multitude of the dead.
Their salvation would not be so complete and full if they are dead. Look at their praises.

And they cry with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb. (v.10)

It is a sign. And the other indications of who is with them, ie. the elders of creation (ancient angels) and four living creatures are
seen without a problem in heaven. So them being all together must be in heaven.

After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, Come up here, . . . (Rev. 4:1a)

Immediately I was in spirit; and behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and upon the throne there was One sitting;
And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance, and there was a rainbow around the throne like an emerald in appearance.

And around the throne there were twenty-four thrones, and upon the thrones twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and upon their heads golden crowns. (vs. 2-4)

And before the throne there was as it were a glassy sea like crystal; and in the midst of the throne and around the throne, there were four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind. (v.6)

So them being all together in chapter 7 is quite believable.

There is nothing about this which stands in the way of you wanting to go to Israel
sometime and help rebuild another temple.

Answer me this. When God dissolves the elements of the earth just before He brings in new heaven and a new earth,
where do you think the vast multitude of the saved will be awaiting "new heavens and a new earth" ?

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the elements, burning with intense heat, will be dissolved, and the earth and the works in it will be burned up.
Since all these things are to be thus dissolved, what kind of persons ought you to be in holy manner of life and godliness,

Expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements, burning with intense heat, are to be melted away?
But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. (2 Pet. 3:10-13)

I believe it is possible that the vision of Revelation 7:9 is of the numberless multitude preserved in the third heavens while
God is totally renovating the old universe.

Anyway, I still don't see how any of this interferes with your heart's desire to one day go to Israel
to help rebuild another temple in Jerusalem. I see no basic problem with that aspiration and these visions
of multitudes in heaven either awaiting to come down with Christ to Armageddon or waiting for the dissolving of the
old creation to make way for the new heavens and new earth.

 

[Joseph G]

Interesting thread. I tend to agree that the ultimate destination is the new earth, but wonder if the first stopover isn't heaven because of verses like the following:

Revelation 6:9 NIV

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained."

This occurs in heaven, right? Sequentially before the new heaven and earth appear?

 

[oikonomia]

Interesting thread. I tend to agree that the ultimate destination is the new earth, but wonder if the first stopover isn't heaven because of verses like the following:

Revelation 6:9 NIV

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained."

This occurs in heaven, right? Sequentially before the new heaven and earth appear?

If you ask me, I will teach you that these souls underneath the altar are crying out from paradise under the earth.
They are resurrected and raptured to heaven in chapter 12 as the "man-child".

The earth in Revelation 6 is the altar. And underneath the altar is underneath the earth.
Before I write more I'd like to see how these things sit with you so far.

This vision of deceased souls underneath the altar is inserted before the opening
of the sixth seal. The opening of the sixth seal is:

1.) A partial answer to their prayer.
2.) A warning to the earth that the great tribulation is soon to begin.

The other part of God's answer to the prayer of the martyrs undeneath the altar is in chapter 12.
Here these who loved not their soul life even unto death (indicating that they had died) are resurrected
and raptured as a remnant to heaven for a time.

And she [the universal bright woman] brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5)

Their rejoicing in heaven indicates their prayer for vindication in chapter 6 has taken a great leap forward.

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. (v.10)

This is concerning not angels but resurrected and raptured overcomers who have put Satan to shame through their victory.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (v.11)

This indicates the Lord salvation has been fully taken advantage of to enable them to prevail against the accuser.
The accuser is always slandering God's saints before God that they are so weak and defeated.
God obtains an exception. The man-child is the stronger part of the universal bright woman.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (v.12)

This indicates that they dwell in heaven and are victorious and safe there even commanding the angels to drive Satan
down to the earth. They have reason to rejoice that the kingdom has come. But those left on earth have WOE
because for a short time Satan will do his last ditch worst to damage man and oppose God.

And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who brought forth the man-child. (v.13)

This shows that the weaker part of the whole body of God's people is left on earth to have to pass through
this short time of great tribulation. But they will both be protected and also produce overcoming martyrs also.

 

[Jimmy It]

What is "far above all the heavens" then?

He who descended, He is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens that He might fill all things.) (Eph. 4:10)

What is it for Christ to pass through the heavens then?

Having therefore a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens,
Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast the confession. (Heb. 4:14)

I would imagine "through the heavens" is outside of what man can find or see. And, since eternity requires a spiritual body it must reside beyond the limits of this physical one.

 

[keras]

People going to live in heaven, is wrong and unbiblical, let alone contradictory to the Words of Jesus. John 3:13
The multitude that John hears in Rev 19:1, are the same dead martyrs whose souls are kept under the Atar in heaven. God allows them to cry out at times.

All Israelites living in the holy Land: NOT the Jewish Israelis!
Why do people see the Bible as not absolutely clear on the premise of the Lord's people being in the holy Land before the Return?
Consider Daniel 7:23-25, paralleled by Revelation 13:7, where God's people are defeated by the armies of the Anti-Christ. Where does this happen? We are told in Revelation 11:1-8...in the Holy City, where the Lord was crucified. Zechariah 14:1-2 and Daniel 11:29-35, also describe this 3 1/2 year period of traumatic testing for the people of the Lord, WHO ARE IN THE HOLY LAND AT THAT TIME.
Revelation 12:1-17 is very informative and gives more details of this 3 1/2, 42 month or 1260 day period: that chapter tell us that Satan will be thrown out of the spiritual realm and will come to earth, his angels with him. He pursues the 'woman', that we know must refer to all righteous Christian Israel. Israelites as per Galatians 3:26-29. They are at that time; living in peace and prosperity in the holy Land, as many prophesies describe. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26, + The new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

The 'many' who had agreed to a peace treaty with the Anti-Christ, the leader of the One World Government, Daniel 9:27, are those who remain in the Land, Revelation 12:17, Zechariah 14:2b. But those who refuse to accede to that treaty, will leave the holy Land, will be taken to a place of safety, where they will be looked after for 1260 days, in a place prepared by God. Revelation 12:6
These are Biblical truths, proving the many prophesies about the great Second Exodus of all the Lords people, from every tribe, nation, race and language, Revelation 5:9-10, that will happen before the Return of Jesus. Then, He will destroy those conquerors of the holy Land, along with the rest of those gathered by Satan, Revelation 16:14, and bring all His people back to Jerusalem, Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

That this teaching is not known to most other Christians, is how God wanted it to be. Matthew 11:25
But now as we are so close to the time of fulfilment, God is 'opening the eyes and unstopping the ears' of a few who are willing to put aside false teachings and really understand His Plans for our future. Jeremiah 30:24

 

[contratodo]

First then I would ask - Is there something about a great multitude in heaven (other than angels) which bothers you?

Heaven means the sky, as defined in Genesis, it does not mean another dimension or some outer-space place.
John wrote what he saw, Revelation 1:19, John saw a great multitude in the sky.

What you might miss is that a portion of the universal church will be resurrected/ transfigured/ and raptured to the third heavens
roughly 3.5 years before the event of 1 Thess. 4:16-17 and 1 Cor. 15:51-58.

Where in scripture are you getting the idea of a rapture from,
if you agree that 1 Thess 4:16-17 and 1 Cor. 15:51-58 are about the same thing?

[ Edit:
Ok I see you want to insist that Revelation 12 is therefore about a 'rapture'?

Revelation 12 is describing time from the birth of Christ to the end.
When the woman brought forth the man child, who we agree is Christ,
then there was war in (the city of) heaven and the devil was cast out.
The woman actually going to her place does not happen until verse 14.
Her place is Jerusalem, for a time it is at peace, then not, then peace again,
this has happened repeatedly over time, their 70 captivities as prophesied in Daniel 9:24-27.
And Christ said "I beheld Satan fall like lightning".
I believe that happened when He was a baby.
The woman in Revelation 12 represents the nation of Israel, Jesus, the man child, is a Jew. ]


Paul says we will be in the air, in the clouds with Christ, and Revelation 19:14 is describing such, an army in the sky with Christ.
Indeed in Bible hub for the king james 'which were' in Rev 19:14 is in italics, a good physical Bible will show it in italics also.

The idea that heaven is some distant place, is not in the Bible.
Clearly Revelation 21:1-2 states that the heavenly city comes down.
"Heaven" our ultimate and eternal paradise is that city that comes down.