John Nelson Darby and the Novelty Factor

[JulieB67]

Folks mix up 2nd Advent verses with rapture verses.

Actually it's the other way around.

John specifically states he comes with clouds and every eye shall see him. That revelation is from Christ given to John. We have to be able to connect the dots.

And Hebrews 9:28 cannot be refuted. It tells us he will appear a second time. That's it. We can't fit another one in there, it won't work. Pretrib rapture believers have to the separate coming into two events. We don't. We let the scriptures speak for themselves.

That is never said nor even implied in 1 Th 4:16.

It's never stated either way regardless. Where does it state that only believers will see him? It doesn't. So then one must use the Bible as a whole. So when you read Matthew 24 and Revelation you see that when Christ returns every eye shall see him. I'm sure you've read all verses that state "coming of the Lord". We can't just read that and think, which coming is that? You need to take out any preconceived ideas, just as I did and just do a study on all the verses that state "coming" of the Lord. There's no way it could be more than one because they're all stated "coming" (singular) of the Lord. We shouldn't have to jigsaw around anything. Just because 1s Thes 4:16 doesn't specifically state that every eye shall see him doesn't mean that we can't take the rest of the bible and see that in fact, every eye shall see him.

We can't let a few verses out context produce a belief system. The bible has to be taken as a whole.

Again, I used to believe as you did, I was taught a pretrib rapture growing up in church, by family etc. At that point I never even dreamed that what they were teaching was false doctrine. I never read the bible in it's entirety to back up what they taught me, never studied it, etc. Which is a shame because why should I claim to be a Christian when I hadn't even read the bible in it's entirety?
But a couple of people told me over 20 years ago, that it wasn't true. So finally after a little bit of soul searching, I went into the Bible only wanting to find the truth no matter what. Because for some it's much harder to "unlearn" things than to learn something new. Only after reading the Bible for the first time in it's entirety did I see that a pretrib rapture was not biblical. It was easy to see, easy to read, the warnings about deception. Now I certainly don't claim to know everything and am still studying every day. And I praise God that I finally did get into his word. Thank God he is so long suffering for people like me. But this subject was not hard at all. Reading Matthew 24 and then both Thessalonians nailed it for me as well as well as other verses that talk about "the coming of the Lord. When it's read as a whole the context is that the Lord will only return one more time.

I know we probably still won't agree. Just wanted to state where I'm coming from. Because I wouldn't just up and change my beliefs. If I saw a pretrib rapture was there I would certainly believe it.

And I'm pretty confident if someone was reading the bible for the first time that had no idea about a pretrib rapture, I don't think they would see it all. They would have taken everything as a whole and and come away with know the Lord will return only one more time.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Actually it's the other way around.

John specifically states he comes with clouds and every eye shall see him. That revelation is from Christ given to John. We have to be able to connect the dots.

And Hebrews 9:28 cannot be refuted. It tells us he will appear a second time. That's it. We can't fit another one in there, it won't work. Pretrib rapture believers have the separate coming into two events. We don't. We let the scriptures speak for themselves.


It's never stated either way regardless. Where does it state that only believers will see him? It doesn't. So then one must use the Bible as a whole. So when you read Matthew 24 and Revelation you see that when Christ returns every eye shall see him. I'm sure you've read all verses that state "coming of the Lord". We can't just read that and think, which coming is that? You need to take out any preconceived ideas, just as I did and just do a study on all the verses that state "coming" of the Lord. There's no way it could be more than one because they're all stated "coming" (singular) of the Lord. We shouldn't have to jigsaw around anything. Just because 1s Thes 4:16 doesn't specifically state that every eye shall see him doesn't mean that we can't take the rest of the bible and see that in fact, every eye shall see him.

We can't let a few verses out context produce a belief system. The bible has to be taken as a whole.

Again, I used to believe as you did, I was taught a pretrib rapture growing up in church, by family etc. At that point I never even dreamed that what they were teaching was false doctrine. I never read the bible in it's entirety to back up what they taught me, never studied it, etc. Which is a shame because why should I claim to be a Christian when I hadn't even read the bible in it's entirety?
But a couple of people told me over 20 years ago, that it wasn't true. So finally after a little bit of soul searching, I went into the Bible only wanting to find the truth no matter what. Because for some it's much harder to "unlearn" things than to learn something new. Only after reading the Bible for the first time in it's entirety did I see that a pretrib rapture was not biblical. It was easy to see, easy to read, the warnings about deception. Now I certainly don't claim to know everything and am still studying every day. And I praise God that I finally did get into his word. Thank God he is so long suffering for people like me. But this subject was not hard at all. Reading Matthew 24 and then both Thessalonians nailed it for me as well as well as other verses that talk about "the coming of the Lord. When it's read as a whole the context is that the Lord will only return one more time.

I know we probably still won't agree. Just wanted to state where I'm coming from. Because I wouldn't just up and change my beliefs. If I saw a pretrib rapture was there I would certainly believe it.

And I'm pretty confident if someone was reading the bible for the first time that had no idea about a pretrib rapture, I don't think they would see it all. They would have taken everything as a whole and and come away with know the Lord will return only one more time.

Acts 1:11 (ESV): and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Jesus ascended only in the presence of believers. Only His disciples witnessed His ascension. Jesus ascended behind clouds out of sight of only believers. In 1 Th 4:16, Jesus will descend and be seen only by believers behind clouds (out of view of the unbelieving world below).

The rapture will be a private event, for believers only. It is not a secret event (1 Th 4:16-17 have been in the Bible for thousands of years for all to see). It is merely a private event able to be witnessed by believers, only.

 

[JulieB67]

and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

This just means he will return to earth exactly as he left. He's not going to stop midflight and go back up again. That would not be in the same manner. He left from the Mount of Olives and he will return exactly as he left. And you notice again the words "will come" that's singular.

Again, we're not going to agree....

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

I don't argue when the rapture is, as Jesus - Yeshua was very clear: Watch & pray, for you know not when the time is.
In Mark 13 he reiterates watch 4 times. He also says only the Father knows the day and hour, not the angels or even the Son.

The dispensationalism that separates old & new testaments is a problem. It's a continuity. There was grace under the law. There were covenants of the law, and then the covenant of grace, by the atoning sacrifice of Christ blood shed.

One things I see in scripture is the Apostles taught Jesus could return any time, however there is nothing ever specifically taught that the tribulation cannot start until after the rapture takes place. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is quoted out of context and in error. God hath not appointed us unto wrath but to obtain salvation.
That wrath is the same wrath that abideth on one who doesn't believe, as in John 3:36, orge in Greek. While that word is also used in Revelation in various places describing the wrath of God, another word, thymos, is also used, as in Rev. 14:10 & 19, 15:1 & 7, 16:1. In Rev. it's interchangeable with orge, which is passionate anger, indignation.

The wrath in context of 1 Thess. 5:9 deals with salvation versus damnation: salvation, soterea = mainly deals with eternal salvation, eternal life, the salvation of the soul.

Rather than debate endlessly of when Christ might return, rather, know that He will return, and 2 Peter 3:11-12,
"Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

Repentance, holiness, sanctification: being separate from the world and it's ways, because honestly the world has crept way way too much into the church and a lot of what goes on in the name of Jesus is abominable filthiness, wickedness of the most obscene sort, and people love to have it so. Realize Jesus shall return in power and in glory, in dread majesty as the Sovereign and warrior who in righteousness doth judge and make war as Rev. 19:11 says. We need to be humbling ourselves under the mighty hand of God that He may exalt us, and not we ourselves exalt us, which so many do. Look up for your redemption draweth nigh. You see many of these things coming to pass, therefore it's your Christian duty of obedience to look up and expect His return, while also occupying till He come. Amen.

 

[keras]

The rapture will be a private event, for believers only. It is not a secret event (1 Th 4:16-17 have been in the Bible for thousands of years for all to see). It is merely a private event able to be witnessed by believers, only.

1 Thess 4:16....when the Archangels voice is heard and the Trumpet of God sounds; then the Lord will descend from heaven .....
Everyone alive at that time will hear and see Jesus Return in glory.

The raising up of His faithful peoples to meet Him: is as described in Matthew 24:31 and is to the place where Jesus Ascended from; the Mount of Olives. Zechariah 14:4 The holy Land, in Jerusalem.

 

[John Lamb]

“Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Luke 21: 36
This is one of many pre-Trib rapture teachings by the Lord Jesus. There’s no novelty, over the history of the church most just haven’t been able to ‘see’ this. Why would a Christian be escaping “all these things that will come to pass“ at the end of the Tribulation. There‘s also no conceivable reason to be commanded to be “watching” at the end. Today, most of the church has no reality of what the Tribulation is going to be like. There are verses in the OT about ‘surviving’ it but that’s not necessarily pointing to many still breathing at the end.

 

[keras]

“Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Luke 21: 36

'escape' in this verse is wrong, as it has been just stated that the disaster of the Day of the Lords wrath, will come upon everyone, the whole world over.
My Revised English Bible put it correctly as: pass safely through all that will happen.

This is one of many pre-Trib rapture teachings by the Lord Jesus.

Jesus does not contradict Himself; John 3:13 and many other Words of Jesus.

 

[John Lamb]

'escape' in this verse is wrong, as it has been just stated that the disaster of the Day of the Lords wrath, will come upon everyone, the whole world over.
My Revised English Bible put it correctly as: pass safely through all that will happen.

Jesus does not contradict Himself; John 3:13 and many other Words of Jesus.

to escape
ἐκφυγεῖν (ekphygein)
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Active
Strong's 1628: To flee out, away, escape; with an acc: I escape something. From ek and pheugo; to flee out.

You’re right, the Lord does not contradict Himself. The parable of the Ten Virgins is another pre-Trib rapture teaching and corresponds perfectly with the one is taken and one is left teaching, again pre-Trib rapture teaching.

 

[JulieB67]

Watch & pray, for you know not when the time is.

Yes, we are to watch and pray but he and Paul both state warnings to begin. Which should mean to us that the timing is important. We aren't to know the day or the hour but we are to know the signs and seasons that Christ lays out. That's what we are to watch for so that day does not overtake one as a thief.

however there is nothing ever specifically taught that the tribulation cannot start until after the rapture takes place.

Christ describes his coming after the tribulation of those days. We know it's a "coming" That's how it's described though out.

The disciples asks for signs of the end of the age and his coming (singular) and he lays out out perfectly. The ones that see those signs come to pass can know that is at the door if those signs should happen in their lifetime.

One things I see in scripture is the Apostles taught Jesus could return any time,

Paul does not. And Christ states things that must happen before.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

That tells us right there, it's the "coming of the day of God" (same day) and that it's not secret and it's something we need to look for.

Repentance, holiness, sanctification: being separate from the world and it's ways, because honestly the world has crept way way too much into the church and a lot of what goes on in the name of Jesus is abominable filthiness, wickedness of the most obscene sort, and people love to have it so.

I agree. But I still think it's important to watch for the signs that Christ lays out. And yes, endless debates might seem pointless but I really feel like both Christ and Paul's wouldn't have given out very strict warnings on this subject if it didn't matter.

Why would a Christian be escaping “all these things that will come to pass“ at the end of the Tribulation.

Because Christ stated that those that endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

Paul states that's what the gospel armour is for -to be able to stand in that "evil day". Satan and his angels will be playing savior to the world, you have to have the full gospel armour on for that if it should happen in one's lifetime. That's what that and the evil day is about. Christ states if one says "there is Christ or here is Christ don't believe it. That's also why Paul states Satan will be disguised (in the Greek) as an angel of light.

And why people will be thinking "peace and safety" when the day of the Lord arrives. They will see it's fake peace and safety. Shocker. Many will be praying for mountains to fall on them. That's what's written and that's what I believe. And it's also why Christ states he comes at an hour most do not expect. Because most of the world will believe the Savior has already arrived. They don't believe the worshipping Satan. Remember he's disguised as an angel of light" You don't don a disguise unless eyes are upon you. Revelation 12 describes how one is to overcome him.

perfectly with the one is taken

Only the word taken in those verses does not mean removed from the earth. There are many different Greek words that the word taken is utilized for. This one in the Greek means to associate ones self with. We want to be the ones left standing and waiting.

Matthew 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left."

Taken in this verse is Greek word paralambano -to receive near, associate oneself with in (any familiar or intimate act), to learn- to receive, take.

This verse should remind of us that first, when it comes to the flood, the first ones taken

Matthew 24:39 "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the son of man be."

And also this verse

Revelation 13:16 "And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:"

I think the first ones taken are the ones taken by Satan/antichrist We are to remain in the field working so to speak.

We need to take in all of these verses-

Luke 17:29 "But the same day that Lord went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all."

Luke 17:30 "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed."

Luke 17:31 "In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back

Luke 17:32 "Remember Lot's wife."

Luke 17:33 "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it."

Luke 17:33 "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it."

Luke 17:34 "I tell you, in that night there shall be two men [souls-husband and wife] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left."

Luke 17:35 "Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luke 17:36 "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

Luke 17:37 "And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Whosoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

So we can see that these verses are not talking about a pretrib rapture to Heaven, just the opposite.


The word for taken that does mean removed is utilized in this verse -

Matthew 9:15 "And Jesus said unto them, "Can the children of the bride chamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast."

Taken in this verse is Greek word apairo -to lift off i.e. remove take (away)

Why would not apairo have been utilized if it in fact had this meant taken away/removed.? Why was paralambano used?

Or even in these instances for the word taken which fit even better

Acts 1:2 "Until the day in which He was taken up, after that He throught the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom He had chosen:"'

Taken in this verse is Greek word analambano- -to take up-receive up

Acts 1:9 "And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

Taken in this verse is epairo -to raise up.


I see the parable of the 10 virgins as the exact opposite.



Matthew 25:10 "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."


Both are waiting for the Bridegroom. But the foolish ones slept, were not on watch and then it was too late. Obviously since both are Christians -non Christians are not waiting on Christ something happens and the door is shut. I think these foolish virgins are part of the "falling away". Because non Christians have nothing to fall away from.

 

[keras]

to escape

Your idea of escaping away from the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, is wrong, as He will protect His own through it all.
Protection for His people:
Psalms 23:4 Even if I walk through a valley of darkness, I will fear no harm, for You are with me.

Isaiah 41:3 For I the Lord, will hold your right hand, saying: fear not, I will help you.

Isaiah 43:2b…walk thru fire and you will not be scorched, thru flames and not be burned.

Zephaniah 2:3 Seek the Lord, all you who obey Him, it may be that you will be sheltered on the Day of the Lord’s anger.

Proverbs 3:25 Do not be afraid when fools are frightened or when destruction overtakes the wicked, for the Lord will be at your side on that Day.

Daniel 3:25 An angel protects the 3 men in the furnace. THEY weren’t taken out of it!

Jeremiah 30:7 How terrible is that Day….yet Jacob [Israel: My people] will come thru it safely.

1 Corinthians 10:13.... God will not test you beyond your powers and when the test comes, He will provide a way out to enable you to endure.

Psalms 9:10 The Lord does not abandon those who seek Him and trust in Him.

2 Peter 2:9 God knows how to rescue the godly from their trials.

Psalms 18:3 I shall call upon the Lord, then I will be made safe.

Psalms 31:23-24 The Lord protects the faithful. Be strong, all you whose hope is in the Lord.

Psalms 64:10 The righteous rejoice, their refuge in the Lord.

Zechariah 9:15-16 The Lord of hosts will protect His people...On that Day, He will save them, like a flock, for they are precious to Him. Isaiah 61:10

Psalms 37:18-19 The Lord watches over the righteous, when times are bad, they will not be distressed.

Job 22:30 He will deliver the innocent, because their hands are pure.

Psalms 91:1-16 ...He will rescue you, you will not fear the terrors abroad.

Psalms 121:1-8 Our help comes from the Lord, He will guard your life.

Psalms 109:31 The Lord stands at the right hand of the poor and saves them from trials.

Isaiah 51:16 I keep you covered under the shelter of My hand.

Psalms 97:10-12 He keeps His loyal servants safe and rescues them from the wicked.

Jeremiah 17:7-8 Blessed is anyone who trusts in the Lord, they will be like trees by a stream, when the heat comes it has nothing to fear.

Nahum 1:7 The Lord is a sure protection in times of trouble and cares for all those who make Him their refuge.

Psalms 60:4-5 To those who fear the Lord, He will show the way to escape from trouble.

Psalms 37:9 For evildoers will be destroyed, those who trust in the Lord will prosper in the Land.

Isaiah 26:20 On that Day, I will come to your aid.

Daniel 12:1 There will be a time of anguish, but at that time, Your people will be delivered, all those whose names are written in the Book of Life.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 ...to give you relief when the Lord Jesus comes in blazing fire.

Joel 3:16 The Lord roars from Zion, the heavens and the earth shudder, but He is a refuge for His people and a defence for Israel.

Isaiah 65:9b My chosen ones will take possession of the land, those who serve Me will live there.

Ecclesiasticus 34:13-17 Those who fear the Lord will live, for their trust in Him can keep them safe. The Lord keeps watch over those who love Him, He is their shield and support, a shelter from the scorching wind and the heat of the sun. He raises their spirits and gives healing, life and blessings. Apoc.
Reference: Revised English Bible.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This just means he will return to earth exactly as he left. He's not going to stop midflight and go back up again. That would not be in the same manner. He left from the Mount of Olives and he will return exactly as he left. And you notice again the words "will come" that's singular.

Again, we're not going to agree....

These are the key words from Acts 1:11: " ... will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” It doesn't say "to where," it says "way."

This is the "way" Jesus ascended: In Acts 1:11, Jesus ascended alone, from the view of believers, only, to Heaven. Acts 1:11 says, "he will return exactly as he left." In 1 Th 4:16, Jesus will descend alone from Heaven, into the view of believers, only (1 Th 4:17). That is the way he ascended and that is the way he will come in the rapture.

Please distinguish Jesus' descent from Heaven in Matt 24:30. Jesus does not descend alone (v31 mentions "angels") and He is in view of the whole world. In the next verse, verse 31, that trumpet blast gathers the elect, only.

In 1 Th 4:16, Jesus descends alone, and the trumpet sound raises the dead in Christ, only. 1 Th 4:16 has nothing to do with the 2nd Advent. It has no details in common whatsoever with Matt 24:30-31. They are separate events.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

I do know the Luke 21 verse is used to say we'll "escape", but the thing is you can build a doctrine either way by using select scriptures.

Can just as easily go to 2 Thessalonians 2:1 - 4 that seems to indicate the gathering together unto Jesus (What Paul referred to in 1 Thess. 4) would NOT happen until there came a falling away and the man of sin (who is the antichrist) be revealed first. This would go contrary to those who say "We won't be here to see the antichrist."

Some teach 2 Thess. 2:6-7 about he who letteth, or restrains, is the church or the Holy Spirit in the church, but it can as well be Gods restraining hand, or even a nation, particularly Rome, which morphed into western Europe/Vatican in middle ages/dark ages, then into Europe and N. America and eventually NATO.

Scripture also says Let BOTH grow together until harvest: Matt. 13:27-30
"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

Now, where is the "harvest" in Revelation?
It's in 14:14-20

Also, that many teach Rev. 4:1 is the rapture are so out of context: it refers only to John being personally called to come up hither to receive the visions of the Revelation, at which point he begins to see things from a more eternal perspective, not necessarily a chronological order.

Again though, we should be concerned with repentance from sin, prayer continually, being separated unto God for use, telling others and warning to flee from the wrath to come, and rejoicing in the LORD Yahweh, Amen

 

[John Lamb]

I do know the Luke 21 verse is used to say we'll "escape", but the thing is you can build a doctrine either way by using select scriptures.

Can just as easily go to 2 Thessalonians 2:1 - 4 that seems to indicate the gathering together unto Jesus (What Paul referred to in 1 Thess. 4) would NOT happen until there came a falling away and the man of sin (who is the antichrist) be revealed first. This would go contrary to those who say "We won't be here to see the antichrist."

That‘s right, people can build any doctrine if they wish, even twist the scriptures out of all proportion. But the NT scriptures describing the rapture and Second Coming are not as veiled as the OT scriptures describing the first advent of Christ. Figuring out the scriptures do teach a pre-Trib rapture is straightforward though. The verses describing “a gathering together” refer to the Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation, not the rapture. The “falling away” translates as “the departure” in the original Greek and is the pre-Trib rapture.

 

[John Lamb]

The “falling away” translates as “the departure” in the original Greek and is the pre-Trib rapture.

Just to correct myself, the falling away is described as a rebellion or apostasy. The only realistic reason that happens is because the pre-Trib rapture of genuine Christians has already taken place. This aligns with the Ten Virgins parable. The five wise virgins are taken in the rapture and the five foolish left behind then reject the truth.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Just to correct myself, the falling away is described as a rebellion or apostasy. The only realistic reason that happens is because the pre-Trib rapture of genuine Christians has already taken place. This aligns with the Ten Virgins parable. The five wise virgins are taken in the rapture and the five foolish left behind then reject the truth.

I'm not saying that don't happen. Where I can honestly say "I don't know" is the actual timing, as there is nothing at all saying when this catching away happens: before, or during the tribulation, and there are some teachings (SDA and others) that teach Daniels 70th week is no longer future but took place between baptism of Jesus by John, and the Church scattering abroad after the stoning of Stephen which is 7 years.

This is why I watch and pray and wait, as well as live accordingly, as all signs point to being ripe for Jesus return.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

1 Thess 4:16....when the Archangels voice is heard and the Trumpet of God sounds; then the Lord will descend from heaven .....
Everyone alive at that time will hear and see Jesus Return in glory.

The raising up of His faithful peoples to meet Him: is as described in Matthew 24:31 and is to the place where Jesus Ascended from; the Mount of Olives. Zechariah 14:4 The holy Land, in Jerusalem.

Actually it's the other way around.

John specifically states he comes with clouds and every eye shall see him. That revelation is from Christ given to John. We have to be able to connect the dots.

And Hebrews 9:28 cannot be refuted. It tells us he will appear a second time. That's it. We can't fit another one in there, it won't work. Pretrib rapture believers have to the separate coming into two events. We don't. We let the scriptures speak for themselves.


It's never stated either way regardless. Where does it state that only believers will see him? It doesn't. So then one must use the Bible as a whole. So when you read Matthew 24 and Revelation you see that when Christ returns every eye shall see him. I'm sure you've read all verses that state "coming of the Lord". We can't just read that and think, which coming is that? You need to take out any preconceived ideas, just as I did and just do a study on all the verses that state "coming" of the Lord. There's no way it could be more than one because they're all stated "coming" (singular) of the Lord. We shouldn't have to jigsaw around anything. Just because 1s Thes 4:16 doesn't specifically state that every eye shall see him doesn't mean that we can't take the rest of the bible and see that in fact, every eye shall see him.

We can't let a few verses out context produce a belief system. The bible has to be taken as a whole.

Again, I used to believe as you did, I was taught a pretrib rapture growing up in church, by family etc. At that point I never even dreamed that what they were teaching was false doctrine. I never read the bible in it's entirety to back up what they taught me, never studied it, etc. Which is a shame because why should I claim to be a Christian when I hadn't even read the bible in it's entirety?
But a couple of people told me over 20 years ago, that it wasn't true. So finally after a little bit of soul searching, I went into the Bible only wanting to find the truth no matter what. Because for some it's much harder to "unlearn" things than to learn something new. Only after reading the Bible for the first time in it's entirety did I see that a pretrib rapture was not biblical. It was easy to see, easy to read, the warnings about deception. Now I certainly don't claim to know everything and am still studying every day. And I praise God that I finally did get into his word. Thank God he is so long suffering for people like me. But this subject was not hard at all. Reading Matthew 24 and then both Thessalonians nailed it for me as well as well as other verses that talk about "the coming of the Lord. When it's read as a whole the context is that the Lord will only return one more time.

I know we probably still won't agree. Just wanted to state where I'm coming from. Because I wouldn't just up and change my beliefs. If I saw a pretrib rapture was there I would certainly believe it.

And I'm pretty confident if someone was reading the bible for the first time that had no idea about a pretrib rapture, I don't think they would see it all. They would have taken everything as a whole and and come away with know the Lord will return only one

1 Thess 4:16....when the Archangels voice is heard and the Trumpet of God sounds; then the Lord will descend from heaven .....
Everyone alive at that time will hear and see Jesus Return in glory.

The raising up of His faithful peoples to meet Him: is as described in Matthew 24:31 and is to the place where Jesus Ascended from; the Mount of Olives. Zechariah 14:4 The holy Land, in Jerusalem.

Keras, you are rewording 1 Th 4:16. You are mixing it with Matt 24:30-31. Here is one reason they are separate events: The trumpet in 1 Th 4:16 raises the dead in Christ, only. The trumpet in Matt 24:31 gathers "the elect" from all over the world. Those events are not the same. They do not happen together. Therefore, they are separate events that happen at different times.

"The elect" means different things in different contexts. The first meaning is Jews, per 1 Peter 2:9. The second meaning is persecuted Jews who have fled Israel, as in James 1:1 (NKJV): To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: ---- That is what is being referred to in Matt 24:31. In the context of the Trib/Armageddon, as to the gatherings that begin in Matt 24:31, "the elect" are the dispersed Jews. If you get that right, you will see that is only who is gathered in Matt 24:31.

Now, please don't cite some verse that says that all believers are "the elect." Those verses exist, but their context is outside the Trib/Armageddon/gatherings sequence of events. To further prove this, Matt 24:31 does not leave Earth. It's the first of many gatherings that are completed in Matt 25 (please note the interlude at the beginning of Matt 25). These are all critical gatherings before the Millenium, that begin at Matt 24:31, and which end in Matt 25.

 

[keras]

Keras, you are rewording 1 Th 4:16. You are mixing it with Matt 24:30-31.

! Thess 4:16, Matthew 24:30-3` and Revelation 19:11-17 ALL describe the one event; The glorious Return of Jesus to reign on earth for the next thousand years. Each Prophecy clearly states this fact.

It is a mistake to shoehorn a rapture to heaven into the end times events and thinking the Jews, that is the Jewish State of Israel, has any part to play after the Sixth Seal event, is wrong. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Keras, you are rewording 1 Th 4:16. You are mixing it with Matt 24:30-31. Here is one reason they are separate events: The trumpet in 1 Th 4:16 raises the dead in Christ, only. The trumpet in Matt 24:31 gathers "the elect" from all over the world. Those events are not the same. They do not happen together. Therefore, they are separate events that happen at different times.

"The elect" means different things in different contexts. The first meaning is Jews, per 1 Peter 2:9. The second meaning is persecuted Jews who have fled Israel, as in James 1:1 (NKJV): To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: ---- That is what is being referred to in Matt 24:31. In the context of the Trib/Armageddon, as to the gatherings that begin in Matt 24:31, "the elect" are the dispersed Jews. If you get that right, you will see that is only who is gathered in Matt 24:31.

Now, please don't cite some verse that says that all believers are "the elect." Those verses exist, but their context is outside the Trib/Armageddon/gatherings sequence of events. To further prove this, Matt 24:31 does not leave Earth. It's the first of many gatherings that are completed in Matt 25 (please note the interlude at the beginning of Matt 25). These are all critical gatherings before the Millenium, that begin at Matt 24:31, and which end in Matt 25.

You are also stressing the "where from" which is not cited in Acts 1:11. Only "the same way" is cited. The same way means Jesus ascended from Earth, in the view of believers, only, into clouds. Jesus will descend from Heaven, into clouds, into the view of believers, only (1 Th 4:17). There is no location other than behind clouds. We do not see Jesus until we pass through the clouds and meet Him in the air (1 Th 4:17). Jesus, only in this way, will fulfil Acts 1:11.

 

[enoob57]

I have read a lot about the pre-trib rapture being false because "no one taught it or believed it" until John Nelson Darby

this is altogether wrong ... the Bible itself teaches it:
The catching up of the church is spoken to many times in the New Testament... But there are three passages that most fully address the Rapture of the church: John 14:1-3; 1 Cor 15:50-57; and 1 Thess 4:13-18.
It is specific in the Revelation:
Rev 4:1
4 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."
NKJV
John was the first to experience the rapture that will be...

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

this is altogether wrong ... the Bible itself teaches it:
The catching up of the church is spoken to many times in the New Testament... But there are three passages that most fully address the Rapture of the church: John 14:1-3; 1 Cor 15:50-57; and 1 Thess 4:13-18.
It is specific in the Revelation:
Rev 4:1
4 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."
NKJV
John was the first to experience the rapture that will be...

You are exactly correct!

In 1 Th 4:16, the trumpet sound raises the dead in Christ, only. Yet, many folks want to claim that is the same trumpet sound in Matt 24:31. In v31, that trumpet sound is only for gathering "the elect" from around the world (persecuted Jews who, over the centuries, have fled from Israel). There is no way 1 Th 4:16 matches Matt 24:31.

Rev 3:10 is the one futuristic verse in early Rev that's before the futuristic section of Revelation (Rev 4-22). Rev 3:10 (NIV): Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

The term "inhabitants" is not endearing. Those are the unbelievers who, by necessity, must go through the Trib, unless they convert therein.