John Nelson Darby and the Novelty Factor

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is no different than this verse -

John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

The word keep in the Greek does not mean remove. It means guard over. God can and will guard over his elect without having to remove them from the earth. Christ even states

Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

That's how massive this hour of temptation is. But God will guard over his elect, it's promised.


Wrath is not the same as tribulation.



John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This is in tune with verse 2-

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Christ is stating there are many resting places -in the Greek -mone -abode/ residence which is derived from the word mene- which means to stay in a given place, state, abide, continue, dwell, endure , be present, remain, etc. That's what mansions are. It all leads to Christ giving us the comforter. That's where we put our rest. That's how we are in him today.

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;"

Abide is the word that I just stated, it's Greek word 3306/mene This is what Christ is talking about. That's the dwelling place.

John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; Whom the world cannot receive, because It seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

Again, dwelleth is the same word in the Greek as abidith.

John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

This is what Christ is talking about in verse 3. He will not leave us comfortless, he will come to us. He will provide that comforter and dwelling place.

We have to take the entire chapter in context.




Again, we need to read above and even further so we can see that Christ will bring those that sleep with him and what Paul calls this very event. There were no chapters, these were letters and they should be read as such -


I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

This verse already makes nonsense of a pretrib rapture. Why would Christ bring anyone with him if he's not returning and we are leaving?

Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep."

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The word air does not mean air as in sky or elevation, that's a different Greek word altogether.

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

He just named the event he's just described -the day of the Lord. And it's the same day that he's talking about in 2nd Thes, it's one day, one coming. And he states watch so that day does not overtake anyone as a thief, the same warning Christ gives out. Meaning if it should happen in someone's lifetime, they are to watch, watch for the signs so that day does not overtake one. It doesn't state anyone will be removed, quite the opposite.




Why would anyone just read two verses and expect to have any context at all?

If we read the entire bible, chapter by chapter, we would have that context. Even going up a few verses as I posted shows you that he is not alone. And the original subject is about where their dead loves ones are.

The words "himself" just means that he's ascending from Heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel.

And again, this verse shows he is not alone -

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Unless you believe in soul sleep but Revelation knocks that down as well as many other verses.


That's because there is no pretrib rapture. If there were Christ would have included it in this chapter. They ask for signs of the end of this world age and his coming and he lays it all out.

The mystery that Paul talks about later on is that "all are changed", not that anyone is going anywhere.


I used to believe as you did as well. But it's not biblical. There's not one entire verse in the Bible that proves a pretrib rapture. If there were I would certainly believe it. I used to believe it. But we have to take the bible as a whole and when we do, we see that he comes back just one more time and there are multiple warnings to not be deceived on this very subject.

In the end these verses make it quite simple.

Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:"

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

Christ must remain in heaven unto the restitution of all things. He will not leave before that.


Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

That's it. He will appear a second time. There's not a third.

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

This is no different than this verse -

John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."


Rev 3:10's "kept" is altogether different from John 17:15's "keep." Rev 3:10 acknowledges having kept (adhered to) Jesus' command to endure patiently. John 17: 15's "keep" is "protect."

Rev 3:10 's "I will keep you from the hour of trial," is where "keep" means "snatch away." John 14:3 (NIV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. --- Both Rev 3:10 and John 14:3 are about the pre-Trib rapture.

 

[JulieB67]

Rev 3:10's "kept" is altogether different from John 17:15's "keep." Rev 3:10 acknowledges having kept (adhered to) Jesus' command to endure patiently. John 17: 15's "keep" is "protect."

Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation , which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I'm not talking about the word kept. I'm talking about the word keep. It is the same Greek word as the word utilized in John 17:15. And again, it doesn not mean removed/raptured from this earth. It's very easy to check out. The word keep in Rev 3:10 and the word keep in John 17:15 are both the Greek word -5083 tereo- to guard (from loss or injury) by keeping an eye upon, watch, etc.

John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

It's unbiblical to add "snatch away" to the meaning because it isn't there. Keep does not mean snatch away.

and John 14:3 are about the pre-Trib rapture.

I've already explained my thoughts on this verse. If we read the entire chapter we can see that he's talking about sending the Comforter, the Holy Spirit -a resting place.

In the end it's really simple. We have to know that Christ cannot leave Heaven until the times of the restitution of all things. Which basically means to restore. A pretrib rapture would make this verse void and null.

Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

Christ does not return two more times. It's written that he will come back a second time and that's what I believe.

Christ tells us of that time that in our patience we are to possess our souls. We have to endure to the end.

That's what patience is in the Greek -endurance.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation , which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I'm not talking about the word kept. I'm talking about the word keep. It is the same Greek word as the word utilized in John 17:15. And again, it doesn not mean removed/raptured from this earth. It's very easy to check out. The word keep in Rev 3:10 and the word keep in John 17:15 are both the Greek word -5083 tereo- to guard (from loss or injury) by keeping an eye upon, watch, etc.

John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

It's unbiblical to add "snatch away" to the meaning because it isn't there. Keep does not mean snatch away.


I've already explained my thoughts on this verse. If we read the entire chapter we can see that he's talking about sending the Comforter, the Holy Spirit -a resting place.

In the end it's really simple. We have to know that Christ cannot leave Heaven until the times of the restitution of all things. Which basically means to restore. A pretrib rapture would make this verse void and null.

Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

Christ does not return two more times. It's written that he will come back a second time and that's what I believe.

Christ tells us of that time that in our patience we are to possess our souls. We have to endure to the end.

That's what patience is in the Greek -endurance.

1 Th 4:16-17 (NIV): V16: For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, ... and the dead in Christ will rise first. ----- Jesus does not raise the dead in Christ as the first action in His return. In HIs return, He appears on clouds with great glory for all the world to see (Matt 24:30). He then descends and goes straight into the battle at Armageddon (Rev 19:11-21).

1 Th 4:16 is the beginning of the rapture. Jesus is never seen by the whole world. Even we who are raptured do not see Jesus until we pass through clouds to meet Him in the air (V17). At that point, we are in Heaven. That's the same event in John 14:3 (NIV): ... I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

 

[JulieB67]

is the beginning of the rapture. Jesus is never seen by the whole world. Even we who are raptured do not see Jesus until we pass through clouds to meet Him in the air (V17). At that point, we are in Heaven. That's the same event in John 14:3 (NIV): ... I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

I feel bad for Paul that this teaching has confused so many people. So much so that he had in address it in his 2nd letter to nail down the timing.

The original subject starting with 4:13 was he was trying to comfort those whose loved ones had passed away.

Context is so very important. He starts out with this discussion telling them that the Lord will bring those loved ones with him at his coming.

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

That's it. That's the subject. Not some pretrib rapture. Paul tells them that their loved ones will return with him.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep

Notice the words -coming of the Lord" that's what it is. He's coming. We will meet him but he is coming back and will bring those with him.

Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

We are meeting the Lord. No one is going anywhere. All are changed at that point and we will be caught up together with those that the Lord will bring with him. He goes-

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

That's it. No secret rapture. The subject is passed away loved ones and Paul tells them Christ will bring them at his return and "comfort one another with these words".

He continues-

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."
I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

He continues the subject of our gathering back together in 2nd Thes because of confusion-


II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


I Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

He states don't be confused by that first letter


I Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Falling away does not and has never meant departure from the earth. It has always mean falling away from the faith/departing from the faith, etc.

Greek word -apostasia -defection from the truth, falling away, forsake.

Other verses that state this will happen or falling away/departing from the faith in general-


I Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, hiving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame."

Hebrews 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

There are many different Greek words utilized the word depart/departing.

The ones above are Greek word aphistemi -to remove, i.e instigate to revolt;, to desist, depart, draw (fall) away, withdraw sefl.

Why not use this word for depart if it's supposed to mean removal from the earth-

Matthew 8:34 "And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw Him, they besought Him that He would depart out of their coasts

Greek word- metabaino -to change place, depart, go, pass, remove.

That's the word you would want, not aspostasia which is very specific in it's meaning. It does not mean removal from the earth.

That's the same event in John 14:3 (NIV): ... I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

I already addressed this. If we take the entire chapter in context, Christ is simply telling them he will return in the form of the Comforter. Mansion is abode/dwelling place and he will not leave us comfortless.

It's been written that he will remain in Heaven until the restitution of all things. And pretrib rapture would not be that.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I feel bad for Paul that this teaching has confused so many people. So much so that he had in address it in his 2nd letter to nail down the timing.

The original subject starting with 4:13 was he was trying to comfort those whose loved ones had passed away.

Context is so very important. He starts out with this discussion telling them that the Lord will bring those loved ones with him at his coming.

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

That's it. That's the subject. Not some pretrib rapture. Paul tells them that their loved ones will return with him.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep

Notice the words -coming of the Lord" that's what it is. He's coming. We will meet him but he is coming back and will bring those with him.

Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

We are meeting the Lord. No one is going anywhere. All are changed at that point and we will be caught up together with those that the Lord will bring with him. He goes-

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

That's it. No secret rapture. The subject is passed away loved ones and Paul tells them Christ will bring them at his return and "comfort one another with these words".

He continues-

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."
I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

He continues the subject of our gathering back together in 2nd Thes because of confusion-


II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


I Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

He states don't be confused by that first letter


I Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Falling away does not and has never meant departure from the earth. It has always mean falling away from the faith/departing from the faith, etc.

Greek word -apostasia -defection from the truth, falling away, forsake.

Other verses that state this will happen or falling away/departing from the faith in general-


I Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, hiving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame."

Hebrews 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

There are many different Greek words utilized the word depart/departing.

The ones above are Greek word aphistemi -to remove, i.e instigate to revolt;, to desist, depart, draw (fall) away, withdraw sefl.

Why not use this word for depart if it's supposed to mean removal from the earth-

Matthew 8:34 "And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw Him, they besought Him that He would depart out of their coasts

Greek word- metabaino -to change place, depart, go, pass, remove.

That's the word you would want, not aspostasia which is very specific in it's meaning. It does not mean removal from the earth.

I already addressed this. If we take the entire chapter in context, Christ is simply telling them he will return in the form of the Comforter. Mansion is abode/dwelling place and he will not leave us comfortless.

It's been written that he will remain in Heaven until the restitution of all things. And pretrib rapture would not be that.

1 Th 4:14 is about all dead believers. Upon death, a believer goes to Paradise. Dead unbelievers go to Hades, Jesus said in Luke 23:43 (NIV): Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Luke 16:22-23: ... The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. ----- The rich man died and went to Hades. Lazarus died and went to Paradise. ----- 1 Th 4:14 is about those in Paradise are "the dead in Christ" cited in 1 Th 4:16. ----- 1 Th 4:14-17 are about what happens on the rapture.

The rapture is pre-Trib. Below is the Greak 2 Th 2:3.

μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,

The keyword is ἀποστασία. It translates to apostasia. It’s 2nd definition in Liddell & Scott Greek-English Dictionary is “departure / disappearance.”

2 Thess 2:1, 5 are about the rapture or rapture teachings. That context applies to verse 3’s apostasia (disappearance).

Source: Greek New Testament: 2 Thessalonians: 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2

 

[JulieB67]

is about all dead believers.

Yes, it is and as Paul teaches, these passed away loved ones Christ will "bring with him" It makes no sense for Christ to bring anyone with him if anyone was leaving.

2nd 2 1 states the "coming of the Lord and our gathering back to him. It's a coming, not going. We are meeting the Lord.

I've already posted that apostasia does not mean removal from the earth. It's an easy study. And it does not mean disappearance.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Yes, it is and as Paul teaches, these passed away loved ones Christ will "bring with him" It makes no sense for Christ to bring anyone with him if anyone was leaving.

2nd 2 1 states the "coming of the Lord and our gathering back to him. It's a coming, not going. We are meeting the Lord.

I've already posted that apostasia does not mean removal from the earth. It's an easy study. And it does not mean disappearance.

Look at the context. 2 Th 2:1 is very similar to John 14:3, and 2 Th 2:1 is a summary of 1 Th 4:16-17 (the rapture). 2 Th 2:2 brings to light serious deception suffered by Paul’s flock --- about the rapture. V3 corrects: his flock: the apostasia (physical departure) is first, before "that day" (in V2 -- the Day of the Lord -- 7-year Trib). V5 is about rapture teachings: 1 Th 1:10; 1 Th 4:16-17; and 1 Th 5:9. The context of 2 Th 2:1-5 is rapture, rapture, rapture.

You are challenging the highly praised Greek scholars, Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott They wrote the LIddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon. Other Greak scholars have praised their work. The second definition of apostasia was even demonstrated by Jesus in Luke 24:31 (NIV): Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. ----- Upon the rapture, billions of believers will suddenly disappear (aoostasia's 2nd definition means "physical departure").

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Yes, it is and as Paul teaches, these passed away loved ones Christ will "bring with him" It makes no sense for Christ to bring anyone with him if anyone was leaving.

2nd 2 1 states the "coming of the Lord and our gathering back to him. It's a coming, not going. We are meeting the Lord.

I've already posted that apostasia does not mean removal from the earth. It's an easy study. And it does not mean disappearance.

What Bible version carries the exact wording ("back to him") that you quote for 2 Th 2:1?

 

[JulieB67]

What Bible version carries the exact wording ("back to him") that you quote for 2 Th 2:1

It's our gathering together unto him. That's what happens when we meet him and we get caught together with those he's bringing with him as well.

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

That's the subject and we cannot separate the second coming into two parts. It's the same day, it's always described as the same day. And Paul states that day will not happen.....

You are challenging the highly praised Greek scholars, Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott They wrote the LIddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon.

I trust James Strong. He takes every english word in the KJV back to at least the original Greek meaning.

Falling away has never meant disappearance. If it did other Greek words would have been sufficient as I posted. And the word departure could have been used there specifically and it wasn't. On something so important as this if it meant removal from the earth apostasia would have not been used. And as I posted when someone falls away it means they are falling away from the faith/truth.

The context of 2 Th 2:1-5 is rapture, rapture, rapture.

Paul certainly didn't teach a pretrib rapture when he's teaching about the gospel armour so someone could stand in that "evil day" He doesn't state they won't be there, quite the opposite. He himself doesn't know the timing but he does know what must happen before Christ will return and he teaches that.

When both Christ and Paul give warnings about deception and not letting that day (same day) overtake one as a thief. Meaning Christians will be there during that day.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It's our gathering together unto him. That's what happens when we meet him and we get caught together with those he's bringing with him as well.

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

That's the subject and we cannot separate the second coming into two parts. It's the same day, it's always described as the same day. And Paul states that day will not happen.....


I trust James Strong. He takes every english word in the KJV back to at least the original Greek meaning.

Falling away has never meant disappearance. If it did other Greek words would have been sufficient as I posted. And the word departure could have been used there specifically and it wasn't. On something so important as this if it meant removal from the earth apostasia would have not been used. And as I posted when someone falls away it means they are falling away from the faith/truth.



Paul certainly didn't teach a pretrib rapture when he's teaching about the gospel armour so someone could stand in that "evil day" He doesn't state they won't be there, quite the opposite. He himself doesn't know the timing but he does know what must happen before Christ will return and he teaches that.

When both Christ and Paul give warnings about deception and not letting that day (same day) overtake one as a thief. Meaning Christians will be there during that day.

2 Th 2:1 is, as Paul says, our gathering unto Him. That means Jesus takes us up to be with Him (John 14:3). What does 1 Th 4:17 mean? We are taken up into Heavenly clouds where we will meet Jesus in the air. That has NOTHING to do with the 2nd Advent (Matt 24:29-30).

The 2A (2nd Advent) is a one-way trip down to Earth for the battle of Armageddon, then the gatherings (sheep and goats), then the Millennial Kingdom for 1,000 years. The rapture is straight up to Heaven, just as in John 14:3 and 1 Th 4:17 and it all occurs before the Trib per Rev 3:10 and 1 Th 2:3.

The falling away occurs well into the Trib (Matt 24:10). That is years after the rapture. It is definition #2 of apostasia that fits apostasia in 2 Th 2:3, not any other definition. The context in 2 Th 2:1-5 is rapture, rapture, rapture.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It's our gathering together unto him. That's what happens when we meet him and we get caught together with those he's bringing with him as well.

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

That's the subject and we cannot separate the second coming into two parts. It's the same day, it's always described as the same day. And Paul states that day will not happen.....


I trust James Strong. He takes every english word in the KJV back to at least the original Greek meaning.

Falling away has never meant disappearance. If it did other Greek words would have been sufficient as I posted. And the word departure could have been used there specifically and it wasn't. On something so important as this if it meant removal from the earth apostasia would have not been used. And as I posted when someone falls away it means they are falling away from the faith/truth.



Paul certainly didn't teach a pretrib rapture when he's teaching about the gospel armour so someone could stand in that "evil day" He doesn't state they won't be there, quite the opposite. He himself doesn't know the timing but he does know what must happen before Christ will return and he teaches that.

When both Christ and Paul give warnings about deception and not letting that day (same day) overtake one as a thief. Meaning Christians will be there during that day.

You're not connecting the dots on 1 Th 4:14 , 16 and 17. The dead in Christ are "raised" (1 Th 4:16). The dead are the folks from Paradise with whom we will now go to Heaven. Paradise ( Luke 23:43) is for believers what Hades is for unbelievers (Luke 16:19-26).

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You're not connecting the dots on 1 Th 4:14 , 16 and 17. The dead in Christ are "raised" (1 Th 4:16). The dead are the folks from Paradise with whom we will now go to Heaven. Paradise ( Luke 23:43) is for believers what Hades is for unbelievers (Luke 16:19-26).

If you would match the wording of 2 Th 2:1 with 1 Th 4:16-17, you will finally understand. Jesus first descends (alone) in 1 Th 4:16. His trumpet voice shouts (probably each of our names along with "Come up here!" -- Rev 4:1 and Rev 11;12). We, along with the dead in Christ (our fellow believers from Paradise) are taken up into the clouds of Heaven where we will meet Jesus in the air. We are in Heaven, After worshipping Jesus (for only God knows for how long), the next event is the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10) which Paul says happens on "that day" (rapture) in 2 Tim 4:8.

 

[JulieB67]

We are taken up into Heavenly clouds where we will meet Jesus in the air. That has NOTHING to do with the 2nd Advent (Matt 24:29-30).

We have to read past chapter 4 into chapter 5 of 1st Thes. We wouldn't read any other book or letter this way and the bible is no different. We see then that Paul names the event of chapter 4:17. He specifically calls it the day of the Lord so we can know without a doubt the event he is talking about. He doesn't stop at 4:18 he continues.

All of these verses still go together-

Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."
I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night

We can see he in fact names the event of 4:16/17 -the day of the Lord. So we know what day he is talking about. This is the second advent

Hebrews 9:28s"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

which Paul says happens on "that day" (rapture) in 2 Tim 4:8.

I Timothy 4:8 "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing.

That's it. He only comes back one more time as noted in Heb 9:28. To believe anything else would be to add to the word of God.

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

The rapture is straight up to Heaven, j

There is no verse that states that in the bible. We have to go with what the scriptures are telling us. We are meeting the Lord. We are caught together with those he will bring with him. Again, it makes no sense to bring anyone if we are going straight to Heaven.

Jesus takes us up

It does not say this. It says we will be caught up together with the ones and meet the Lord in the air. Air does not mean sky or elevation in this verse. That's a different Greek word altogether.

If you would match the wording of 2 Th 2:1 with 1 Th 4:16-17, you will finally understand.

The wording is that both are talking about the day of the Lord/Day of Christ which is when our gathering back unto him happens. Same event. That's why addressed the confusion his first letter had caused so he had to nail down the timing. It will not happen until a falling away (apostasy) and the man of sin is revealed. Paul states one must have the gospel armour on to be able to "stand" in that "evil day" Christ states the same thing, those that endure until the end, the same will be saved. They are on the same page.
Paul would not have told them they need to stand in that evil day if Christians weren't going to be there. He would have said, don't worry, etc.

John 14 in context as well has nothing to do with a pretrib rapture to heaven

He's telling us don't worry

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Mansion in the Greek means resting/dwelling place mone.

John 14:4 "And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

John 14:5 "Thomas saith unto Him, "Lord, we know not whither Thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Thomas asks him how they can know the way?

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."

John 14:7 "If ye had know Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him."

John 14:8 "Philip saith unto Him, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us."


John 41:9 "Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father'

John 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father That dwelleth in Me, He doeth the Works."


John 14:11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for the very works' sake."

john 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto My Father."

John 14:13 "And whatsoever ye shall ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

John 14:14 "If ye shall ask any thing in My name, I will do it."

John 14:15 "If ye love Me, keep My commandments."

And now Jesus is coming around to what he was first talking about at the beginning of the chapter. It needs to be read in full to get the complete context

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;

Abide has the same prime word meaning as the word mone/mansion

John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; Whom the world cannot receive, because It seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."


John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

This is what Christ means at the beginning of the chapter -dwelling/resting places/coming again in the way of the comforter.


John 14:19 "Yet a little while, and the world seeth Me no more; but ye see Me: because I live, ye shall live also."

John 14:20 "At that day ye shall know that I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you."

This chapter has nothing to do with a pretrib rapture. It's his promise of the Holy Spirt/Comforter.

God is not the author of confusion and Christ teaches with such simplicity on this very subject in the gospels.

Why does Paul not specifically state people will be raptured to heaven?? In those words? It's because it's not going to happen. There's not one verse that states anyone will be raptured to heaven. We are going to be gathered together to meet the Lord. We shouldn't read anything or add anything to that.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

We have to read past chapter 4 into chapter 5 of 1st Thes. We wouldn't read any other book or letter this way and the bible is no different. We see then that Paul names the event of chapter 4:17. He specifically calls it the day of the Lord so we can know without a doubt the event he is talking about. He doesn't stop at 4:18 he continues.

All of these verses still go together-

Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."
I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night

We can see he in fact names the event of 4:16/17 -the day of the Lord. So we know what day he is talking about. This is the second advent

Hebrews 9:28s"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."



I Timothy 4:8 "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing.

That's it. He only comes back one more time as noted in Heb 9:28. To believe anything else would be to add to the word of God.

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.






There is no verse that states that in the bible. We have to go with what the scriptures are telling us. We are meeting the Lord. We are caught together with those he will bring with him. Again, it makes no sense to bring anyone if we are going straight to Heaven.


It does not say this. It says we will be caught up together with the ones and meet the Lord in the air. Air does not mean sky or elevation in this verse. That's a different Greek word altogether.



The wording is that both are talking about the day of the Lord/Day of Christ which is when our gathering back unto him happens. Same event. That's why addressed the confusion his first letter had caused so he had to nail down the timing. It will not happen until a falling away (apostasy) and the man of sin is revealed. Paul states one must have the gospel armour on to be able to "stand" in that "evil day" Christ states the same thing, those that endure until the end, the same will be saved. They are on the same page.
Paul would not have told them they need to stand in that evil day if Christians weren't going to be there. He would have said, don't worry, etc.

John 14 in context as well has nothing to do with a pretrib rapture to heaven

He's telling us don't worry

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Mansion in the Greek means resting/dwelling place mone.

John 14:4 "And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

John 14:5 "Thomas saith unto Him, "Lord, we know not whither Thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Thomas asks him how they can know the way?

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."

John 14:7 "If ye had know Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him."

John 14:8 "Philip saith unto Him, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us."


John 41:9 "Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father'

John 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father That dwelleth in Me, He doeth the Works."


John 14:11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for the very works' sake."

john 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto My Father."

John 14:13 "And whatsoever ye shall ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

John 14:14 "If ye shall ask any thing in My name, I will do it."

John 14:15 "If ye love Me, keep My commandments."

And now Jesus is coming around to what he was first talking about at the beginning of the chapter. It needs to be read in full to get the complete context

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;

Abide has the same prime word meaning as the word mone/mansion

John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; Whom the world cannot receive, because It seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."


John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

This is what Christ means at the beginning of the chapter -dwelling/resting places/coming again in the way of the comforter.


John 14:19 "Yet a little while, and the world seeth Me no more; but ye see Me: because I live, ye shall live also."

John 14:20 "At that day ye shall know that I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you."

This chapter has nothing to do with a pretrib rapture. It's his promise of the Holy Spirt/Comforter.

God is not the author of confusion and Christ teaches with such simplicity on this very subject in the gospels.

Why does Paul not specifically state people will be raptured to heaven?? In those words? It's because it's not going to happen. There's not one verse that states anyone will be raptured to heaven. We are going to be gathered together to meet the Lord. We shouldn't read anything or add anything to tha

We have to read past chapter 4 into chapter 5 of 1st Thes. We wouldn't read any other book or letter this way and the bible is no different. We see then that Paul names the event of chapter 4:17. He specifically calls it the day of the Lord so we can know without a doubt the event he is talking about. He doesn't stop at 4:18 he continues.

All of these verses still go together-

Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."
I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night

We can see he in fact names the event of 4:16/17 -the day of the Lord. So we know what day he is talking about. This is the second advent

Hebrews 9:28s"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."



I Timothy 4:8 "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing.

That's it. He only comes back one more time as noted in Heb 9:28. To believe anything else would be to add to the word of God.

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.






There is no verse that states that in the bible. We have to go with what the scriptures are telling us. We are meeting the Lord. We are caught together with those he will bring with him. Again, it makes no sense to bring anyone if we are going straight to Heaven.


It does not say this. It says we will be caught up together with the ones and meet the Lord in the air. Air does not mean sky or elevation in this verse. That's a different Greek word altogether.



The wording is that both are talking about the day of the Lord/Day of Christ which is when our gathering back unto him happens. Same event. That's why addressed the confusion his first letter had caused so he had to nail down the timing. It will not happen until a falling away (apostasy) and the man of sin is revealed. Paul states one must have the gospel armour on to be able to "stand" in that "evil day" Christ states the same thing, those that endure until the end, the same will be saved. They are on the same page.
Paul would not have told them they need to stand in that evil day if Christians weren't going to be there. He would have said, don't worry, etc.

John 14 in context as well has nothing to do with a pretrib rapture to heaven

He's telling us don't worry

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Mansion in the Greek means resting/dwelling place mone.

John 14:4 "And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

John 14:5 "Thomas saith unto Him, "Lord, we know not whither Thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Thomas asks him how they can know the way?

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."

John 14:7 "If ye had know Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him."

John 14:8 "Philip saith unto Him, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us."


John 41:9 "Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father'

John 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father That dwelleth in Me, He doeth the Works."


John 14:11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for the very works' sake."

john 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto My Father."

John 14:13 "And whatsoever ye shall ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

John 14:14 "If ye shall ask any thing in My name, I will do it."

John 14:15 "If ye love Me, keep My commandments."

And now Jesus is coming around to what he was first talking about at the beginning of the chapter. It needs to be read in full to get the complete context

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;

Abide has the same prime word meaning as the word mone/mansion

John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; Whom the world cannot receive, because It seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."


John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

This is what Christ means at the beginning of the chapter -dwelling/resting places/coming again in the way of the comforter.


John 14:19 "Yet a little while, and the world seeth Me no more; but ye see Me: because I live, ye shall live also."

John 14:20 "At that day ye shall know that I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you."

This chapter has nothing to do with a pretrib rapture. It's his promise of the Holy Spirt/Comforter.

God is not the author of confusion and Christ teaches with such simplicity on this very subject in the gospels.

Why does Paul not specifically state people will be raptured to heaven?? In those words? It's because it's not going to happen. There's not one verse that states anyone will be raptured to heaven. We are going to be gathered together to meet the Lord. We shouldn't read anything or add anything to that.

Jesus does not come back in the rapture. He is behind Heavenly clouds the whole time. Give 1 Th 4:16-17 a close read, and you will see that is true. We are taken up to Him (John 14:3; 2 Th 2:1). We don't even see Him until we pass through Heavenly clouds (1 Th 4:17).

But, here's the definitive data that the pre-Trib rapture is fact: 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

The early seals are chock-full of God's wrath. They include famines, plagues and wild beasts that kill humans. God sends such judgments only in anger and in wrath: Please see that is true in the following verses that are about the identical wrath. A lot of people don't know this about the seal judgments. Now, you do. 1 Th 1:10 guarantees that the pre-Trib rapture is true.

Ezekiel 5: 15-17 (NIV): 15 You will be a reproach and a taunt, a warning and an object of horror to the nations around you when I inflict punishment on you in anger and in wrath and with stinging rebuke. I the Lord have spoken. 16 When I shoot at you with my deadly and destructive arrows of famine, I will shoot to destroy you. I will bring more and more famine upon you and cut off your supply of food. 17 I will send famine and wild beasts against you, and they will leave you childless. Plague and bloodshed will sweep through you, and I will bring the sword against you. I the Lord have spoken.”

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

We have to read past chapter 4 into chapter 5 of 1st Thes. We wouldn't read any other book or letter this way and the bible is no different. We see then that Paul names the event of chapter 4:17. He specifically calls it the day of the Lord so we can know without a doubt the event he is talking about. He doesn't stop at 4:18 he continues.

All of these verses still go together-

Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."
I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night

We can see he in fact names the event of 4:16/17 -the day of the Lord. So we know what day he is talking about. This is the second advent

Hebrews 9:28s"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."



I Timothy 4:8 "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing.

That's it. He only comes back one more time as noted in Heb 9:28. To believe anything else would be to add to the word of God.

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.






There is no verse that states that in the bible. We have to go with what the scriptures are telling us. We are meeting the Lord. We are caught together with those he will bring with him. Again, it makes no sense to bring anyone if we are going straight to Heaven.


It does not say this. It says we will be caught up together with the ones and meet the Lord in the air. Air does not mean sky or elevation in this verse. That's a different Greek word altogether.



The wording is that both are talking about the day of the Lord/Day of Christ which is when our gathering back unto him happens. Same event. That's why addressed the confusion his first letter had caused so he had to nail down the timing. It will not happen until a falling away (apostasy) and the man of sin is revealed. Paul states one must have the gospel armour on to be able to "stand" in that "evil day" Christ states the same thing, those that endure until the end, the same will be saved. They are on the same page.
Paul would not have told them they need to stand in that evil day if Christians weren't going to be there. He would have said, don't worry, etc.

John 14 in context as well has nothing to do with a pretrib rapture to heaven

He's telling us don't worry

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

Mansion in the Greek means resting/dwelling place mone.

John 14:4 "And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

John 14:5 "Thomas saith unto Him, "Lord, we know not whither Thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Thomas asks him how they can know the way?

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."

John 14:7 "If ye had know Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him."

John 14:8 "Philip saith unto Him, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us."


John 41:9 "Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father'

John 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself: but the Father That dwelleth in Me, He doeth the Works."


John 14:11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for the very works' sake."

john 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto My Father."

John 14:13 "And whatsoever ye shall ask in My name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

John 14:14 "If ye shall ask any thing in My name, I will do it."

John 14:15 "If ye love Me, keep My commandments."

And now Jesus is coming around to what he was first talking about at the beginning of the chapter. It needs to be read in full to get the complete context

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;

Abide has the same prime word meaning as the word mone/mansion

John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; Whom the world cannot receive, because It seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."


John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

This is what Christ means at the beginning of the chapter -dwelling/resting places/coming again in the way of the comforter.


John 14:19 "Yet a little while, and the world seeth Me no more; but ye see Me: because I live, ye shall live also."

John 14:20 "At that day ye shall know that I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you."

This chapter has nothing to do with a pretrib rapture. It's his promise of the Holy Spirt/Comforter.

God is not the author of confusion and Christ teaches with such simplicity on this very subject in the gospels.

Why does Paul not specifically state people will be raptured to heaven?? In those words? It's because it's not going to happen. There's not one verse that states anyone will be raptured to heaven. We are going to be gathered together to meet the Lord. We shouldn't read anything or add anything to that.

This is the fourth seal judgment: Rev 6:8 (ESV): And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

There you have proof the identical wrath is poured out in the seal judgments. That wrath is poured out in anger, with stinging rebuke. There is no way believers are subjected to this wrath, anger and stinging rebuke.

 

[JulieB67]

He is behind Heavenly clouds the whole time

Not biblical . He comes with clouds and every eye will see him.

We are taken up to Him

Not biblical. We are caught together with the others in the clouds and will meet him. It's no secret, it's with a shout and the sound of a trumpet.

We don't even see Him until we pass through Heavenly clouds

Not biblical. There is no verse that states this.

Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Wrath is not the same thing as tribulation

I think we should agree to disagree at this point.

I only deal in scripture. There has to be clear scripture. We shouldn't have to "read anything into it". We need to let them speak for themselves and to me it's pretty clear he only returns/comes one more time. You see it diffferently. I used to believe as you did years ago but it's just not biblical. Hebrews 9:28 can't be anymore clear and it fits with everything that Christ, Paul and John teaches about his return -one. But again, you see that differently.

 

[keras]

We who refute and speak against the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine, do so out of concern for our fellow Christians, who have been lied to and deceived by their teachers.

There is no definitive scripture that says God intends to take His people up to heaven in these end times. There are, in fact quite a few that say He won't: John 3:13, John 17:15, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, 1 Cor 1:7-9, 1 Cor 10:13, 1 Peter 4:12-19, Jeremiah 25:29, Proverbs 10:30 Psalms 10:30, Psalms 37:29, Revelation 2:25-26

I am aware of the problem of many Christians, in that the 'rapture' is the only teaching for the Church, before Jesus Returns. One American I spoke to said: The rapture is all I have ever been taught.
This is a very sad state of affairs, as this false theory has set up many to fall from their faith, when they expect to be raptured, doesn't happen.

Here is a quote from Art Katz, a messianic Jew: “Nothing has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship and maturity that can stand strong in faith, in these end times; than the mistaken idea of a rapture to heaven, so they won’t have to face the Lord’s wrath”.

What we are told to do when things get bad, is to 'Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved.' Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

Also, with the 'rapture' belief, you miss out on knowing the amazing promises of God, of how He will protect and bless His faithful people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land.
There are many prophesies telling us about God's plans, do not make the mistake of attributing His Blessings to the Jews. They have lost the Kingdom, Matthew 21:43, and we Christians, Jew and Gentile, are the inheritors of God's promises. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:26-29, as followers of Jesus, the One true Israel, thru whom all the promises of God will be fulfilled. 2 Corinthians 1:20

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Not a biblical . He comes with clouds and every eye will see him.

Not biblical. We are caught together with the others in the clouds and will meet him. It's no secret, it's with a shout and the sound of a trumpet.

Not biblical. There is no verse that states this.

Wrath is not the same thing as tribulation

I think we should agree to disagree at this point.

I only deal in scripture. There has to be clear scripture. We shouldn't have to "read anything into it". We need to let them speak for themselves and to me it's pretty clear he only returns/comes one more time. You see it diffferently. I used to believe as you did years ago but it's just not biblical. Hebrews 9:28 can't be anymore clear and it fits with everything that Christ, Paul and John teaches about his return -one. But again, you see that differently.

If you read 1 Th 4:16-17, you will see that Jesus descends "by himself." It never says anyone sees Hm. He is only seen for the first time in verse 17, behind clouds and in the air. Here is Matt 24:30, the start of the 2nd Advent: “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. ---- There you have proof that Jesus is seen in the 2nd Advent, but He is not seen in the rapture. The wrath of God is in the first four seal judgments. 1 Th 1:10 fully applies: and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

I am quoting Scripture. I am quoting it accurately. Why don't you see this?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

We who refute and speak against the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine, do so out of concern for our fellow Christians, who have been lied to and deceived by their teachers.

There is no definitive scripture that says God intends to take His people up to heaven in these end times. There are, in fact quite a few that say He won't: John 3:13, John 17:15, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, 1 Cor 1:7-9, 1 Cor 10:13, 1 Peter 4:12-19, Jeremiah 25:29, Proverbs 10:30 Psalms 10:30, Psalms 37:29, Revelation 2:25-26

I am aware of the problem of many Christians, in that the 'rapture' is the only teaching for the Church, before Jesus Returns. One American I spoke to said: The rapture is all I have ever been taught.
This is a very sad state of affairs, as this false theory has set up many to fall from their faith, when they expect to be raptured, doesn't happen.

Here is a quote from Art Katz, a messianic Jew: “Nothing has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship and maturity that can stand strong in faith, in these end times; than the mistaken idea of a rapture to heaven, so they won’t have to face the Lord’s wrath”.

What we are told to do when things get bad, is to 'Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved.' Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

Also, with the 'rapture' belief, you miss out on knowing the amazing promises of God, of how He will protect and bless His faithful people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land.
There are many prophesies telling us about God's plans, do not make the mistake of attributing His Blessings to the Jews. They have lost the Kingdom, Matthew 21:43, and we Christians, Jew and Gentile, are the inheritors of God's promises. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:26-29, as followers of Jesus, the One true Israel, thru whom all the promises of God will be fulfilled. 2 Corinthians 1:20

The 7-year Trib is full wrath. Here's Rev 6:16-17 (ESV): calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

There you have proof there is wrath in the Trib.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

We who refute and speak against the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine, do so out of concern for our fellow Christians, who have been lied to and deceived by their teachers.

There is no definitive scripture that says God intends to take His people up to heaven in these end times. There are, in fact quite a few that say He won't: John 3:13, John 17:15, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, 1 Cor 1:7-9, 1 Cor 10:13, 1 Peter 4:12-19, Jeremiah 25:29, Proverbs 10:30 Psalms 10:30, Psalms 37:29, Revelation 2:25-26

I am aware of the problem of many Christians, in that the 'rapture' is the only teaching for the Church, before Jesus Returns. One American I spoke to said: The rapture is all I have ever been taught.
This is a very sad state of affairs, as this false theory has set up many to fall from their faith, when they expect to be raptured, doesn't happen.

Here is a quote from Art Katz, a messianic Jew: “Nothing has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship and maturity that can stand strong in faith, in these end times; than the mistaken idea of a rapture to heaven, so they won’t have to face the Lord’s wrath”.

What we are told to do when things get bad, is to 'Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved.' Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

Also, with the 'rapture' belief, you miss out on knowing the amazing promises of God, of how He will protect and bless His faithful people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land.
There are many prophesies telling us about God's plans, do not make the mistake of attributing His Blessings to the Jews. They have lost the Kingdom, Matthew 21:43, and we Christians, Jew and Gentile, are the inheritors of God's promises. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:26-29, as followers of Jesus, the One true Israel, thru whom all the promises of God will be fulfilled. 2 Corinthians 1:20

Keras, I've seen this on Twitter. Folks mix up 2nd Advent verses with rapture verses. These events are completely separate and distinct. How can you folks say Jesus is seen by the whole world in 1 Th 4:16-17 , when it doesn't even imply that? How can you deny we won't see Him until we pass through clouds (1 Th 4:17)? These actions are not in the 2nd Advent.

Matt 24:30 makes it perfectly clear Jesus is on clouds and is seen by the whole world. That is never said nor even implied in 1 Th 4:16. Yet, you folks say 1 Th 4:16-17 are the 2nd Advent. I hope you reply, I will not contribute anymore to this forum,