John Nelson Darby and the Novelty Factor

[keras]

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered: Truly I tell you today; you will be with Me in paradise. Correctly punctuated.

NOT the day they died, but on a future day. Proved by how Jesus went down to Sheol and preached to the spirits there. Also by Revelation 20:11-15, where we are told that it will only be after Judgment that anyone receives immortality and lives with God.

If you decided to break a small law, should the rest of humanity be placed under death?

The end result of God's 7000 year Plan for mankind, will be a group of people out of all the ages, who believed in God, kept His Commandments and unwaveringly trusted Him for their Eternal souls.
The rest of mankind will be annihilated and remembered no more. Simple, logical and what the Bible says will happen.

 

[Billy Evmur]

I have read a lot about the pre-trib rapture being false because "no one taught it or believed it" until John Nelson Darby started teaching it in the 1800's. This view is promoted a lot by people who denounce the pre-trib rapture view.

It reminds me a lot of the view that Protestantism has no basis in the historical church up until the 1500's. Protestants believe that the church failed for 1500 years and that only because of Martin Luther and his fellow reformers, the "true church" was restored to its first century purity. However, there is no record of anything approaching today's Protestantism in the early church. Even Martin Luther believed in venerating the Virgin Mary and the doctrine of Communion being the literal body and blood of Christ. Most of Protestantism's evangelical denominations are pretty divorced from historical Christianity and that includes Reformed Christianity as it existed 400 years ago.

So, my question to those who say the pre-trib rapture is false because no one taught it or believed it until the 1800's, why are you Protestant? According to your logic, Protestantism is false, because no believed it or taught it until the Reformation? Seems like shaky logic to use if you're Protestant and post-trib.

Martin Luther and co did not return us to the bible purity of the church but to the post apostolic church age of the [already backslidden] early Fathers. But it was a more pure gospel than the one which prevailed in the 16th century.

Concerning Darby the church has always and ever believed and warned that the last days would be a perilous age for the church. That the world would be in the final rebellion against God and that Antichrist would seat himself in the temple declaring himself to be God.

The returning Lord will slay him by the breath of His mouth and gather His church ... so shall they ever be with Him.

 

[Timtofly]

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered: Truly I tell you today; you will be with Me in paradise. Correctly punctuated.

NOT the day they died, but on a future day. Proved by how Jesus went down to Sheol and preached to the spirits there. Also by Revelation 20:11-15, where we are told that it will only be after Judgment that anyone receives immortality and lives with God.

The end result of God's 7000 year Plan for mankind, will be a group of people out of all the ages, who believed in God, kept His Commandments and unwaveringly trusted Him for their Eternal souls.
The rest of mankind will be annihilated and remembered no more. Simple, logical and what the Bible says will happen.

You left out the context of the verse.

"And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

So, your logic is that Jesus will not have a kingdom until the GWT judgment event, after heaven and earth are no more?

Jesus transferred those from Abraham's bosom into His kingdom immediately. They came out of their graves physically. They left their grave physically and permanently on Sunday morning when they ascended into Paradise. The thief did not physically hop off the Cross and hang out with those from Abraham's bosom until Sunday morning. He went directly to Paradise that day, hours later, when his soul left that body.

Jesus' kingdom is not still on hold until the GWT event found in Revelation 20.

You found an English version that seems to agree with your bias. Can you find the same support in a Greek text?

 

[keras]

So, your logic is that Jesus will not have a kingdom until the GWT judgment event, after heaven and earth are no more?

Not correct.
My logic is what the scriptures say: There won't be immortal, spiritual beings in the Millennium Kingdom. Isaiah 65:20
Excepting for Jesus, of course.

Jesus transferred those from Abraham's bosom into His kingdom immediately. They came out of their graves physically. They left their grave physically and permanently on Sunday morning when they ascended into Paradise. The thief did not physically hop off the Cross and hang out with those from Abraham's bosom until Sunday morning. He went directly to Paradise that day, hours later, when his soul left that body.

You make some wild and fanciful assertions. Your ideas of Abrahams Bosom and Paradise, are wakadoodle.
The use of the Parable of Abraham and Lazarus the beggar, as actually happening, is error. Jesus gave that story as a homily, as an example for us to take note of and realize that we have only the chance to do right, in our mortal lives.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The fact is the Bible itself is against the idea of Pre-Tribulation.

Paul, Jesus, and Daniel, and John all prophecy persecution of Christians and the arrival of the man of sin before his coming.

1. Persecution of Christians (Mat 24:9-13, Rev 13:7-10, Dan 11:33-35)
2. Man of Sin (Mat 24:15-21, Daniel 11:36-39, Rev 14:4-6, 2 Th 2:1-8)

2Th 2:1-8 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

As for protestant teaching, I agree much of it also is wrong. Specifically the Reformed idea of Predestination, which was not taught by the early church, or church fathers. But it still uses the Bible for support. The rapture can not do that honestly.

As for my statement about Reformed theology: Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God, as taught by the early church fathers.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

Rev 3:10 (NIV): Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. That verse is the clearest statement by Jesus that believers will not be subjected to the seven years of wrath that will come upon the earth. That means only one thing: the timing of the rapture is pre-Trib. Jesus also said in John 14:3 (NIV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. The phrase "take you to be with me" is the rapture to Heaven. The rapture in 1 Th (Thess) 4:16-17 is Jesus coming for the Church. We are raptured into the clouds where we first see Jesus. We then go to Heaven, as Jesus said in John 14:3 "that you may also be where I am." This is not the 2A (2nd Advent) as this event, the rapture, goes instantly from Earth to Heaven. Also, a careful read of 1 Th 4:16-17 is that Jesus descends from Heaven by Himself (verse 16). We also don't see Him until verse 17 when we pass through clouds to see Jesus in the air. I can also show you that Matt 24 has nothing to do with the rapture. Matt 24:31's trumpet "will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." That is the sole purpose of that trumpet. The trumpet in 1 Th 4:16 is strictly about "the dead in Christ will rise first." The purposes of those trumpets do not match. They each sound only once, and so they can't be about the same event. The timeline of the Trib proves those two events are seven years apart. I have even more verses to prove the timing of the rapture is pre-Trib. This is not opinion. It's stated in the Bible. God bless!

 

[JulieB67]

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

This is no different than this verse -

John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

The word keep in the Greek does not mean remove. It means guard over. God can and will guard over his elect without having to remove them from the earth. Christ even states

Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

That's how massive this hour of temptation is. But God will guard over his elect, it's promised.

wrath

Wrath is not the same as tribulation.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This is in tune with verse 2-

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Christ is stating there are many resting places -in the Greek -mone -abode/ residence which is derived from the word mene- which means to stay in a given place, state, abide, continue, dwell, endure , be present, remain, etc. That's what mansions are. It all leads to Christ giving us the comforter. That's where we put our rest. That's how we are in him today.

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;"

Abide is the word that I just stated, it's Greek word 3306/mene This is what Christ is talking about. That's the dwelling place.

John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; Whom the world cannot receive, because It seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

Again, dwelleth is the same word in the Greek as abidith.

John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

This is what Christ is talking about in verse 3. He will not leave us comfortless, he will come to us. He will provide that comforter and dwelling place.

We have to take the entire chapter in context.

The phrase "take you to be with me" is the rapture to Heaven

No, it's not a pretrib rapture. We have to read further to see exactly what Christ is talking about.

The rapture in 1 Th (Thess) 4:16-17 is Jesus coming for the Church. We are raptured into the clouds where we first see Jesus.

Again, we need to read above and even further so we can see that Christ will bring those that sleep with him and what Paul calls this very event. There were no chapters, these were letters and they should be read as such -


I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

This verse already makes nonsense of a pretrib rapture. Why would Christ bring anyone with him if he's not returning and we are leaving?

Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep."

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The word air does not mean air as in sky or elevation, that's a different Greek word altogether.

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

He just named the event he's just described -the day of the Lord. And it's the same day that he's talking about in 2nd Thes, it's one day, one coming. And he states watch so that day does not overtake anyone as a thief, the same warning Christ gives out. Meaning if it should happen in someone's lifetime, they are to watch, watch for the signs so that day does not overtake one. It doesn't state anyone will be removed, quite the opposite.

Also, a careful read of 1 Th 4:16-17 is that Jesus descends from Heaven by Himself

Why would anyone just read two verses and expect to have any context at all?

If we read the entire bible, chapter by chapter, we would have that context. Even going up a few verses as I posted shows you that he is not alone. And the original subject is about where their dead loves ones are.

The words "himself" just means that he's ascending from Heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel.

And again, this verse shows he is not alone -

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Unless you believe in soul sleep but Revelation knocks that down as well as many other verses.

I can also show you that Matt 24 has nothing to do with the rapture.

That's because there is no pretrib rapture. If there were Christ would have included it in this chapter. They ask for signs of the end of this world age and his coming and he lays it all out.

The mystery that Paul talks about later on is that "all are changed", not that anyone is going anywhere.

. I have even more verses to prove the timing of the rapture is pre-Trib.

I used to believe as you did as well. But it's not biblical. There's not one entire verse in the Bible that proves a pretrib rapture. If there were I would certainly believe it. I used to believe it. But we have to take the bible as a whole and when we do, we see that he comes back just one more time and there are multiple warnings to not be deceived on this very subject.

In the end these verses make it quite simple.

Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:"

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

Christ must remain in heaven unto the restitution of all things. He will not leave before that.


Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

That's it. He will appear a second time. There's not a third.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is no different than this verse -

John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

The word keep in the Greek does not mean remove. It means guard over. God can and will guard over his elect without having to remove them from the earth. Christ even states

Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

That's how massive this hour of temptation is. But God will guard over his elect, it's promised.


Wrath is not the same as tribulation.



John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This is in tune with verse 2-

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Christ is stating there are many resting places -in the Greek -mone -abode/ residence which is derived from the word mene- which means to stay in a given place, state, abide, continue, dwell, endure , be present, remain, etc. That's what mansions are. It all leads to Christ giving us the comforter. That's where we put our rest. That's how we are in him today.

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;"

Abide is the word that I just stated, it's Greek word 3306/mene This is what Christ is talking about. That's the dwelling place.

John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; Whom the world cannot receive, because It seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

Again, dwelleth is the same word in the Greek as abidith.

John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

This is what Christ is talking about in verse 3. He will not leave us comfortless, he will come to us. He will provide that comforter and dwelling place.

We have to take the entire chapter in context.




Again, we need to read above and even further so we can see that Christ will bring those that sleep with him and what Paul calls this very event. There were no chapters, these were letters and they should be read as such -


I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

This verse already makes nonsense of a pretrib rapture. Why would Christ bring anyone with him if he's not returning and we are leaving?

Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep."

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The word air does not mean air as in sky or elevation, that's a different Greek word altogether.

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

He just named the event he's just described -the day of the Lord. And it's the same day that he's talking about in 2nd Thes, it's one day, one coming. And he states watch so that day does not overtake anyone as a thief, the same warning Christ gives out. Meaning if it should happen in someone's lifetime, they are to watch, watch for the signs so that day does not overtake one. It doesn't state anyone will be removed, quite the opposite.




Why would anyone just read two verses and expect to have any context at all?

If we read the entire bible, chapter by chapter, we would have that context. Even going up a few verses as I posted shows you that he is not alone. And the original subject is about where their dead loves ones are.

The words "himself" just means that he's ascending from Heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel.

And again, this verse shows he is not alone -

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Unless you believe in soul sleep but Revelation knocks that down as well as many other verses.


That's because there is no pretrib rapture. If there were Christ would have included it in this chapter. They ask for signs of the end of this world age and his coming and he lays it all out.

The mystery that Paul talks about later on is that "all are changed", not that anyone is going anywhere.


I used to believe as you did as well. But it's not biblical. There's not one entire verse in the Bible that proves a pretrib rapture. If there were I would certainly believe it. I used to believe it. But we have to take the bible as a whole and when we do, we see that he comes back just one more time and there are multiple warnings to not be deceived on this very subject.

In the end these verses make it quite simple.

Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:"

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

Christ must remain in heaven unto the restitution of all things. He will not leave before that.


Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

That's it. He will appear a second time. There's not a third.

First, no verses about the rapture say Jesus is seen by the whole world. He obviously can't be seen because that would violate the verses that say He will only next be seen by the whole world in His 2nd Advent. Matt 24:30 is a good example of Jesus to be seen by the whole world upon the 2nd Advent. You will not find any such wording in a rapture verse.



For example, 1 Th 4:16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, and with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: --- Nowhere does it say Jesus is seen by anyone, because He isn't.



Then, in verse 17 it says: Then shall we which live and remain, be caught up with them also in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. --- We who will be raptured, will not see Jesus until we pass through heavenly clouds. Jesus is never seen by anyone on Earth during the rapture. Again, even we won't even see Him until we pass through heavenly clouds.



Secondly, the actual pre-Trib timing of the rapture is in the Greek and early English bibles. Let's look at The Geneva Bible of 1599.



Here are the first three verses to 2 Th 2:



Verse 1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,



Verse 2: That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.



Verse 3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.



In verse1, Paul is merely raising the topic of the rapture. He had a pressing need to clear up a major misunderstanding by his flock in Thessalonica. The problem was about the rapture, so in verse 1, he immediately raised the topic of the rapture.



In verse 2, Paul cites the deception by which his flock was victimized. The wording, "nor by letter, as it were from us," is about a fraudulent letter his flock received that was made to look like it was from Paul. It made his flock think they had missed the rapture and were now in the Trib (7-year Trib / Day of the Lord / sometimes called Day of Christ).



In verse 3, Paul says don't be deceived because --- "that day shall not come" --- meaning the Trib / Day of the Lord / sometimes called Day of Christ --- will not come; except there come a departing first. --- Paul was saying the Trib will not come, because the RAPTURE of the Church comes, first.

How do we know he meant rapture? Most importantly, there are no prior writings by Paul concerning a falling away. The original Greek word written by Paul in verse 3 was ἀποστασία. That translates to "apostasia." Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon carries two definitions for apostasia: (1) defection/revolt; (2) departure/disappearance. In Bibles that preceded the first KJV Bible in 1611, those earlier Bibles used either "departynge" or "departing" in verse 3. Departure or departing in Greek, is related to disappearance, as in physical disappearance -- as in "rapture."



If you go by the context of 2 Th 2:1 (rapture), and you go by the context of 2 Th 2:2 (don't be deceived by a fraudulent letter), and you go by the context of 2 Th 2:3 (that day -- Day of the Lord -- will not come except there come a departing first), that all adds up to the Bible saying the timing of the rapture to be pre-Trib.



The ending words to verse 3 are: and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition. --- The very first act that starts the Trib is in Rev 6:1-2. --- That is the opening of the first seal. The rider on the white horse is the AC (antichrist), also known as "the son of perdition." The opening of the first seal starts the Trib, and Rev 6:1-2 is the first revelation of the AC. Of course, the AC later proves to be a double-crosser at the midpoint of the Trib, per Matt 24:15.



So, there you have it. Paul says the Day of the Lord will not come unless the rapture comes, first.



God bless!

 

[JulieB67]

First, no verses about the rapture say Jesus is seen by the whole world

There are no verses about a pretrib rapture and the original subject of 1st Thes 4 is about where their loved ones are that have passed on and then Paul goes on to explain. These were never verses about a pretrib rapture.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

Definitely not in secret. And it's very clear that all eyes see him when he comes with clouds.

And again,

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

There would be absolutely no reason for Christ to bring anyone with him if we are leaving immediately.

That verse coincides with this verse-

Jude 14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,"
Which notes the word "cometh"

Also, note the wording in this verse -

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep."

All of these verses are describing the "coming of the Lord which is the second coming. We can't just insert a pretrib rapture" when it's very apparent that what's being described is a second "coming".

Another one -

Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen."

Again and again, we are told "he cometh..." That is the second coming. And we are told specifically he will remain in Heaven until the restitution of "all things" He will not descend out of Heaven before that.

He obviously can't be seen because that would violate the verses that say He will only

It violates nothing. It's clear his return will be seen by everyone. And there are no verse that states that he will only come in secret this time and the next time he will be seen by everyone. When we take the entire bible in whole to retain the context all of these verses point to Christ returning one more time.

The Thessalonians were confused themselves because they thought the return of Christ was imminent and Paul nails down the timing -the subject being our gathering back to him which happens
during this verse-

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We who will be raptured, will not see Jesus until we pass through heavenly clouds. Jesus is never seen by anyone on Earth during the rapture. Again, even we won't even see Him until we pass through heavenly clouds.

Not biblical.

If you read further because as I've stated in other threads there were no chapters, Paul continues this subject into chapter 5. We wouldn't just stop and not continue. We wouldn't read any other book that way and the Bible is no different. We have to continue Paul's letter -


I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But (he continues) of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

The original subject is where their loved ones are and Paul states what will happen and states comfort yourselves. The comfort was not about a pretrib rapture. It was the fact that those that have passed on will be there as well.

He then goes on to describe his return and in says but of the times and seasons you have no need that I write to you. Because he knows they know. He knows what Christ laid out about coming like a thief in the night. And what is going on? They will be thinking peace and safety (false peace) and then bam, destruction. So no, this coming is not in secret quite the opposite. He also calls the event of 1st Thes 4:16/17 -the day of the Lord.

If it happens on one's lifetime they will in fact be here because both Christ and Paul state warnings to not let "that day" overtake you as a thief. The only way that could is if they were in fact here. If they were gone, that day would not overtake them as a thief and the warning would be pointless. But Christians will be here. That's why the strict warnings. Paul states one has to have the gospel armour on to be able to stand in that "evil" day. Meaning again, Christians will be here.

Verse 3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition

You can't fall for this meaning of departing as in meaning a pretrib rapture from the earth. Falling away/fall away/depart has always meant apostasy as in departing from the faith/truth

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame."

I Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, hiving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

Hebrews 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Apostasy in the Strongs Greek 646- apostasia -defection from truth -falling away, forsake. It does not mean departed or removed from the earth.

We can even go further

It even states in the definition, fem of the same as 647 which is apostasion - something separative -a divorce.

Departing in the Greek is 868 and it's usually the same thing as we see in Hebrews 3:12 -aphistemi- to remove, ie instigage revolt,
usually to desist, desert, depart, draw (fall) away.

You are departing from the faith which in fact means you are divorcing yourself/separating yourself from the truth and the faith. That's going to happen to many people. Many who will be claiming "peace and safety" and then the true Christ returns. We don't want to be part of the "falling away" we want to be standing remaining true until the end in case it should happen in our lifetime.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is no different than this verse -

John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

The word keep in the Greek does not mean remove. It means guard over. God can and will guard over his elect without having to remove them from the earth. Christ even states

Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

That's how massive this hour of temptation is. But God will guard over his elect, it's promised.


Wrath is not the same as tribulation.



John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This is in tune with verse 2-

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Christ is stating there are many resting places -in the Greek -mone -abode/ residence which is derived from the word mene- which means to stay in a given place, state, abide, continue, dwell, endure , be present, remain, etc. That's what mansions are. It all leads to Christ giving us the comforter. That's where we put our rest. That's how we are in him today.

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;"

Abide is the word that I just stated, it's Greek word 3306/mene This is what Christ is talking about. That's the dwelling place.

John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; Whom the world cannot receive, because It seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

Again, dwelleth is the same word in the Greek as abidith.

John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

This is what Christ is talking about in verse 3. He will not leave us comfortless, he will come to us. He will provide that comforter and dwelling place.

We have to take the entire chapter in context.




Again, we need to read above and even further so we can see that Christ will bring those that sleep with him and what Paul calls this very event. There were no chapters, these were letters and they should be read as such -


I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

This verse already makes nonsense of a pretrib rapture. Why would Christ bring anyone with him if he's not returning and we are leaving?

Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep."

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The word air does not mean air as in sky or elevation, that's a different Greek word altogether.

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

He just named the event he's just described -the day of the Lord. And it's the same day that he's talking about in 2nd Thes, it's one day, one coming. And he states watch so that day does not overtake anyone as a thief, the same warning Christ gives out. Meaning if it should happen in someone's lifetime, they are to watch, watch for the signs so that day does not overtake one. It doesn't state anyone will be removed, quite the opposite.




Why would anyone just read two verses and expect to have any context at all?

If we read the entire bible, chapter by chapter, we would have that context. Even going up a few verses as I posted shows you that he is not alone. And the original subject is about where their dead loves ones are.

The words "himself" just means that he's ascending from Heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel.

And again, this verse shows he is not alone -

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Unless you believe in soul sleep but Revelation knocks that down as well as many other verses.


That's because there is no pretrib rapture. If there were Christ would have included it in this chapter. They ask for signs of the end of this world age and his coming and he lays it all out.

The mystery that Paul talks about later on is that "all are changed", not that anyone is going anywhere.


I used to believe as you did as well. But it's not biblical. There's not one entire verse in the Bible that proves a pretrib rapture. If there were I would certainly believe it. I used to believe it. But we have to take the bible as a whole and when we do, we see that he comes back just one more time and there are multiple warnings to not be deceived on this very subject.

In the end these verses make it quite simple.

Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:"

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

Christ must remain in heaven unto the restitution of all things. He will not leave before that.


Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

That's it. He will appear a second time. There's not a third.

These are the bottom-line facts to the biblical proof of the pre-Trib rapture:

1 Th 1:10 (NIV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

The seal judgments (Rev 6:1-8) are many of the same judgments sent by God in Ezekiel 5:15-17 (NIV).

Ezekiel 5: 15-17 (NIV): 15 You will be a reproach and a taunt, a warning and an object of horror to the nations around you when I inflict punishment on you in anger and in wrath and with stinging rebuke. I the Lord have spoken. 16 When I shoot at you with my deadly and destructive arrows of famine, I will shoot to destroy you. I will bring more and more famine upon you and cut off your supply of food. 17 I will send famine and wild beasts against you, and they will leave you childless. Plague and bloodshed will sweep through you, and I will bring the sword against you. I the Lord have spoken.”
In Ezekiel 5:15, God said: "I inflict punishment on you in anger and in wrath and with stinging rebuke." He is therefore wrathful when sending famine, wild beasts and plagues. Therefore, the famine, wild beasts plagues in Rev 6:7 are certifiably God's wrath in the early seals.

1 Th 1:10 therefore wholly validates we believers will not enter the Trib.

1 Th 5:9 (NIV): For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[JulieB67]

These are the bottom-line facts to the biblical proof of the pre-Trib rapture:

1 Th 1:10 (NIV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

I Thessalonians 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

Wrath is not the same thing as tribulation. And we have to remember that the famine we need to worry about is this one-

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:"

For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is a true statment but again, God's wrath is only for those not waiting for him. They will be the ones praying for the mountains to hide them.

I know many have disagreements on the seals but they are a signet/a stamp that is impressed. They are not actions. They are stating what will happen during the tribulation. They pretty much cover the entire tribulation as does Christ in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. We can see that God's wrath is at the end of the seals.

The very first one is the most important, it's about Satan/Antichrist. We have to know he comes first.

Revelation 6:2 "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

And these are the same events-


Revelation 6:13 "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Revelation 16:20 "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

This next verse tells us we are towards the end of tribulation when everyone is looking to hide from the wrath of God

Revelation 6:15 "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"


Revelation 6:16 "And said to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

Revelation 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

This is the end of the tribulation as you can see with everyone trying to hide themselves which harkens back to these verses

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Luke 23:29 "For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.' "

Luke 23:30 "Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, `Fall on us; and to the hills, `Cover us.' "

Which is a duplicate to this verse

Revelation 6:16 "And said to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

It's impossible for this to happen before the end of the tribulation. Because people will be thinking peace and safety and then, bam, destruction.


We want to be the ones left standing. Paul states-


Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

Paul is talking to Christians and he's talking about that evil day. What day would that be? When Satan and his are on earth playing savior. He's a second witness to Christ who states those that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. Paul is not talking about a pretrib/escape rapture. He's telling everyone to take on the armour so you can be able to stand. Part of that is the word of God which also goes back to God stating that's what the true famine will be, hearing the word of God. Everyone will be so wrapped but in believing that Satan is in fact God they will be claiming peace and safety and then bam, the true Christ returns. And God's wrath will be upon them.

We can't just take a few verses out of context and form a belief system. We have to take the entire bible as a whole. And a pretrib rapture is just not biblical.

As I stated I used to believe it as well because I was indoctrinated with that belief among others but it is not in the bible. We are given warnings on deceptions about this very subject. That's how important it is. We don't want to let that day overtake us. We want to remain standing.

 

[keras]

We can't just take a few verses out of context and form a belief system. We have to take the entire bible as a whole. And a pretrib rapture is just not biblical.

Right.
We who refute and speak against the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine, do so out of concern for our fellow Christians, who have been lied to and deceived by their teachers.

There is no definitive scripture that says God intends to take His people up to heaven in these end times. There are, in fact quite a few that say He won't: John 3:13, John 17:15, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, 1 Cor 1:7-9, 1 Cor 10:13, 1 Peter 4:12-19, Jeremiah 25:29, Proverbs 10:30 Psalms 10:30, Psalms 37:29, Revelation 2:25-26

I am aware of the problem of many Christians, in that the 'rapture' is the only teaching for the Church, before Jesus Returns. One American I spoke to said: The rapture is all I have ever been taught.
This is a very sad state of affairs, as this false theory has set up many to fall from their faith, when they expect to be raptured, doesn't happen.

Here is a quote from Art Katz, a messianic Jew: “Nothing has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship and maturity that can stand strong in faith, in these end times; than the mistaken idea of a rapture to heaven, so they won’t have to face the Lord’s wrath”.

What we are told to do when things get bad, is to 'Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved.' Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

Also, with the 'rapture' belief, you miss out on knowing the amazing promises of God, of how He will protect and bless His faithful people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land.
There are many prophesies telling us about God's plans, do not make the mistake of attributing His Blessings to the Jews. They have lost the Kingdom, Matthew 21:43, and we Christians, Jew and Gentile, are the inheritors of God's promises. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:26-29, as followers of Jesus, the One true Israel, thru whom all the promises of God will be fulfilled. 2 Corinthians 1:20

 

[JulieB67]

I am aware of the problem of many Christians, in that the 'rapture' is the only teaching for the Church, before Jesus Returns. One American I spoke to said: The rapture is all I have ever been taught.

It was all I knew growing up. It was not until my 30's that I found out the truth for myself (Thank God!) and I accepted the love of that truth.

This is a very sad state of affairs, as this false theory has set up many to fall from their faith, when they expect to be raptured, doesn't happen.

Exactly.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There are no verses about a pretrib rapture and the original subject of 1st Thes 4 is about where their loved ones are that have passed on and then Paul goes on to explain. These were never verses about a pretrib rapture.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

Definitely not in secret. And it's very clear that all eyes see him when he comes with clouds.

And again,

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

There would be absolutely no reason for Christ to bring anyone with him if we are leaving immediately.

That verse coincides with this verse-

Jude 14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,"
Which notes the word "cometh"

Also, note the wording in this verse -

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep."

All of these verses are describing the "coming of the Lord which is the second coming. We can't just insert a pretrib rapture" when it's very apparent that what's being described is a second "coming".

Another one -

Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen."

Again and again, we are told "he cometh..." That is the second coming. And we are told specifically he will remain in Heaven until the restitution of "all things" He will not descend out of Heaven before that.


It violates nothing. It's clear his return will be seen by everyone. And there are no verse that states that he will only come in secret this time and the next time he will be seen by everyone. When we take the entire bible in whole to retain the context all of these verses point to Christ returning one more time.

The Thessalonians were confused themselves because they thought the return of Christ was imminent and Paul nails down the timing -the subject being our gathering back to him which happens
during this verse-

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Not biblical.

If you read further because as I've stated in other threads there were no chapters, Paul continues this subject into chapter 5. We wouldn't just stop and not continue. We wouldn't read any other book that way and the Bible is no different. We have to continue Paul's letter -


I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But (he continues) of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

The original subject is where their loved ones are and Paul states what will happen and states comfort yourselves. The comfort was not about a pretrib rapture. It was the fact that those that have passed on will be there as well.

He then goes on to describe his return and in says but of the times and seasons you have no need that I write to you. Because he knows they know. He knows what Christ laid out about coming like a thief in the night. And what is going on? They will be thinking peace and safety (false peace) and then bam, destruction. So no, this coming is not in secret quite the opposite. He also calls the event of 1st Thes 4:16/17 -the day of the Lord.

If it happens on one's lifetime they will in fact be here because both Christ and Paul state warnings to not let "that day" overtake you as a thief. The only way that could is if they were in fact here. If they were gone, that day would not overtake them as a thief and the warning would be pointless. But Christians will be here. That's why the strict warnings. Paul states one has to have the gospel armour on to be able to stand in that "evil" day. Meaning again, Christians will be here.


You can't fall for this meaning of departing as in meaning a pretrib rapture from the earth. Falling away/fall away/depart has always meant apostasy as in departing from the faith/truth

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame."

I Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, hiving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

Hebrews 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Apostasy in the Strongs Greek 646- apostasia -defection from truth -falling away, forsake. It does not mean departed or removed from the earth.

We can even go further

It even states in the definition, fem of the same as 647 which is apostasion - something separative -a divorce.

Departing in the Greek is 868 and it's usually the same thing as we see in Hebrews 3:12 -aphistemi- to remove, ie instigage revolt,
usually to desist, desert, depart, draw (fall) away.

You are departing from the faith which in fact means you are divorcing yourself/separating yourself from the truth and the faith. That's going to happen to many people. Many who will be claiming "peace and safety" and then the true Christ returns. We don't want to be part of the "falling away" we want to be standing remaining true until the end in case it should happen in our lifetime.

Please note in Rev 6:7 (NIV) these words: famine, plague, and wild beasts. Please note in Ezekiel 5:15 (NIV): ... I inflict punishment on you in anger and in wrath and with stinging rebuke. I the Lord have spoken. --- Then, in verse 17: I will send famine and wild beasts against you, and they will leave you childless. Plague and bloodshed will sweep through you, and I will bring the sword against you. I the Lord have spoken.”

Ezekiel 5:15 & 17 prove that when God sends famine, plague and wild beasts, they are sent "in anger and in wrath with stinging rebuke." Therefore, the famine, plague and wild beasts in Rev 6:7 prove that right at the beginning of the Trib, God's wrath is poured out.

1 Th 1:10 (NIV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

The "rescue from the coming wrath" is the pre-Trib rapture.

1 Th 4:16 was not stated to be secret. It just means Jesus is not seen. His shout will be heard, if only by the folks who will be raptured. The rapture is proven above to occur pre-Trib. 1 Th 4:17 (NIV): After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Even we who are raptured, will not see Jesus until we pass through heavenly clouds. So, if we only see Jesus after passing through heavenly clouds, certainly no one on Earth can see Him, at all. It has to be that way because the rapture is not the 2nd Advent. The rapture certainly isn't and won't be a secret. Billions of believers will disappear at once. That is certainly not an event carried out in secret. That Jesus is not seen until those raptured pass through heavenly clouds, is the perfect plan to not violate any verse concerning the 2nd Advent, which, itself will happen about seven years after the pre-Trib rapture.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I Thessalonians 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

Wrath is not the same thing as tribulation. And we have to remember that the famine we need to worry about is this one-

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:"



This is a true statment but again, God's wrath is only for those not waiting for him. They will be the ones praying for the mountains to hide them.

I know many have disagreements on the seals but they are a signet/a stamp that is impressed. They are not actions. They are stating what will happen during the tribulation. They pretty much cover the entire tribulation as does Christ in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. We can see that God's wrath is at the end of the seals.

The very first one is the most important, it's about Satan/Antichrist. We have to know he comes first.

Revelation 6:2 "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

And these are the same events-


Revelation 6:13 "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Revelation 16:20 "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

This next verse tells us we are towards the end of tribulation when everyone is looking to hide from the wrath of God

Revelation 6:15 "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"


Revelation 6:16 "And said to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

Revelation 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

This is the end of the tribulation as you can see with everyone trying to hide themselves which harkens back to these verses

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Luke 23:29 "For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.' "

Luke 23:30 "Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, `Fall on us; and to the hills, `Cover us.' "

Which is a duplicate to this verse

Revelation 6:16 "And said to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

It's impossible for this to happen before the end of the tribulation. Because people will be thinking peace and safety and then, bam, destruction.


We want to be the ones left standing. Paul states-


Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

Paul is talking to Christians and he's talking about that evil day. What day would that be? When Satan and his are on earth playing savior. He's a second witness to Christ who states those that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. Paul is not talking about a pretrib/escape rapture. He's telling everyone to take on the armour so you can be able to stand. Part of that is the word of God which also goes back to God stating that's what the true famine will be, hearing the word of God. Everyone will be so wrapped but in believing that Satan is in fact God they will be claiming peace and safety and then bam, the true Christ returns. And God's wrath will be upon them.

We can't just take a few verses out of context and form a belief system. We have to take the entire bible as a whole. And a pretrib rapture is just not biblical.

As I stated I used to believe it as well because I was indoctrinated with that belief among others but it is not in the bible. We are given warnings on deceptions about this very subject. That's how important it is. We don't want to let that day overtake us. We want to remain standing.

Julie,

Please note in Rev 6:7 (NIV) these words: famine, plague, and wild beasts. Please note in Ezekiel 5:15 (NIV): ... I inflict punishment on you in anger and in wrath and with stinging rebuke. I the Lord have spoken. --- Then, in verse 17: I will send famine and wild beasts against you, and they will leave you childless. Plague and bloodshed will sweep through you, and I will bring the sword against you. I the Lord have spoken.”

Ezekiel 5:15 & 17 prove that when God sends famine, plague and wild beasts, they are sent "in anger and in wrath with stinging rebuke." Therefore, the famine, plague and wild beasts in Rev 6:7 prove that right at the beginning of the Trib, God's wrath is poured out.

1 Th 1:10 (NIV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

The "rescue from the coming wrath" is the pre-Trib rapture.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Julie,

Please note in Rev 6:7 (NIV) these words: famine, plague, and wild beasts. Please note in Ezekiel 5:15 (NIV): ... I inflict punishment on you in anger and in wrath and with stinging rebuke. I the Lord have spoken. --- Then, in verse 17: I will send famine and wild beasts against you, and they will leave you childless. Plague and bloodshed will sweep through you, and I will bring the sword against you. I the Lord have spoken.”

Ezekiel 5:15 & 17 prove that when God sends famine, plague and wild beasts, they are sent "in anger and in wrath with stinging rebuke." Therefore, the famine, plague and wild beasts in Rev 6:7 prove that right at the beginning of the Trib, God's wrath is poured out.

1 Th 1:10 (NIV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

The "rescue from the coming wrath" is the pre-Trib rapture.

Julie, tribulation is a very general term. We face trials and tribulation in our private lives. The difference in the 7-year Trib is God's wrath is poured out in 21 judgments (seven each of seals, trumpets and bowls). Therefore, God's wrath is the order of the day in the 7-year Trib, which features 21 judgments of stinging rebukes (Ezekiel 5:15).

 

[JulieB67]

Julie, tribulation is a very general term. We face trials and tribulation in our private lives.

I don't think we're going to agree on this. I'd rather heed the warnings by both Christ and Paul so that day does not overtake me as a thief if it should happen in my lifetime. That's what a watchman does. Watches for the signs that Christ lays out and endures to the end. He makes it really simple.

We will not suffer God's wrath if one is on watch but that's not the same as going through the tribulation.

Also, we have to remember the mindset of people right before God's wrath hits-


I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."


God's wrath is so sudden upon them. One minute they're thinking peace and safety and then bam destruction. The only way they would be thinking peace and safety is because they've bought into the fake peace and safety that Satan and his bring. That's how he destroys.

And we can know for certain that God's wrath is not the tribulation.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I don't think we're going to agree on this. I'd rather heed the warnings by both Christ and Paul so that day does not overtake me as a thief if it should happen in my lifetime. That's what a watchman does. Watches for the signs that Christ lays out and endures to the end. He makes it really simple.

We will not suffer God's wrath if one is on watch but that's not the same as going through the tribulation.

Also, we have to remember the mindset of people right before God's wrath hits-


I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."


God's wrath is so sudden upon them. One minute they're thinking peace and safety and then bam destruction. The only way they would be thinking peace and safety is because they've bought into the fake peace and safety that Satan and his bring. That's how he destroys.

And we can know for certain that God's wrath is not the tribulation.

1 Th 5:2 is about believers, who will be raptured pre-Trib.

1 Th 5:3 is about unbelievers who will go through the Trib.

 

[JulieB67]

is about believers, who will be raptured pre-Trib.

1 Th 5:3 is about unbelievers who will go through the Trib.

They are not separate events. The analogy of a "thief in the night" is because of the sudden destruction. Both verses are absolutely tied together.

Verse 3 doesn't even make sense without verse 2. That's the analogy. Peace and safety and then bam destruction when the Lord's Day arrives and God's wrath is upon them. That's how fast and suprising it is and why it's a thief in the night. No one is prepared for a thief in the night. And unless someone is prepared and on watch, they won't be prepared for the day of the Lord either.

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

All three of these verses go together.

ETA. I edited some out because it's too much for this thread and again, don't think we're going to agree...

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

They are not separate events. The analogy of a "thief in the night" is because of the sudden destruction. Both verses are absolutely tied together.

Verse 3 doesn't even make sense without verse 2. That's the analogy. Peace and safety and then bam destruction when the Lord's Day arrives and God's wrath is upon them. That's how fast and suprising it is and why it's a thief in the night. No one is prepared for a thief in the night. And unless someone is prepared and on watch, they won't be prepared for the day of the Lord either.

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

All three of these verses go together.

ETA. I edited some out because it's too much for this thread and again, don't think we're going to agree...

You're right. I boo-booed. It's verses 4-6 that are about believers that will not go through the Trib.

Notice the distinction between those "of the light" and "of the day", versus those who are "of the darkness" and "of the night." Verse 7 is about those who will go through the Trib. Verses 8 - 11 are about believers.

Please note verse 9 (NIV): For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. -- That means we believers will not go through the Trib, wherein God's wrath begins on day 1 (verse 3 above says so).

 

[keras]

While they are saying: Peace and Safety.......

This prophecy in 1 Thessalonians 5:3, goes on to tell us: then, sudden destruction will come upon them.
So we need to establish who are those who will say; ‘At last we have peace and safety’, and who the sudden destruction will fall upon.

We can be sure this is about the latter days, as it refers to the prophecy in Matthew 24:8 All these things are the birth pangs of the new age.
We also know that it will happen before Jesus Returns, as Paul tells us in 1Thessalonians 4:16 The Lord will come from heaven with a shout; the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God.

Whereas at this sudden destruction, before the Return: He will come unexpectedly.
This event is obviously the multi prophesied Day of the Lord’s fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. The Lord will not be seen on that Day, He will SEND His fiery wrath. Amos 1, Psalms 11:4-6

The focal point of God’s Plan on earth, is the holy Land, the place His eyes are fixed upon. Deuteronomy 11:11-12

The situation there has been extremely volatile for many years, but just recently there has been a change, with the United Arab Emirates normalizing relations with the Jewish State of Israel. Also many other Middle East nations are overtly [instead of covertly] in diplomatic and trade discussions with Israel.

This considerable improvement toward stability and peace in the region, has resulted in many comments of optimism and hope for peace and safety at last for Israel and the Islamic peoples. Those diplomats and commentators are the first ‘they’.

EXCEPT for Iran and their proxies. Their Shi-ite version of Islam remains committed to the destruction of the Jewish people and the removal of Israel from the Middle East and now, Hamas has stirred the pot and Israel will neutralize them.

We see many prophecies which say how the Lord will destroy His enemies, Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12 and Revelation 6:12-17, are the most specific. They all say that the Lord will take action when an attack upon Israel is commenced. He will not allow nukes to explode in His holy Land.

Therefore, ‘them’, are the peoples who hate Israel and attempt to wipe them off the map.

It WILL happen, God’s Word prophesies it and Satan is the force behind Islam, plus the leaders of Iran are facing revolution for their mismanagement and incompetence. They must act to retain power by diverting attention from themselves.