Michael stands up - Daniel 12:1, Revelation 12:7-9

[CoreyD]

I wasn’t puzzled at the son of man part, what puzzles me is why it says “like” the son of man.

I edited my post a little too late. Does it help?

I believe the ancient of days is God.

None other.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, John does not tell us what he was doing, whether sleeping, eating, praying or what. That does not matter.
What John tells us, is that he came to be in the spirit, on the Lord's day - and as the context shows, John is being carried away, or moved by the spirit.

Corey, I don't what translation you are using, so you might be getting a different impression than me. In the kjv...

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

In verse 9, John said that he was in the isle of Patmos. In verse 10, it does not say that John was being carried away... such as saying suddenly or immediately in the Spirit.

In Revelation 4:2 it does say "And immediately I was in the Spirit", which would indicate being carried away in that case.

Corey, I am thinking the tone of John's voice in that verse as being different than in Revelation 1:10. Try reading the two verses out loud, as if it were you in John's place right there at the time.

If you want to go with your opinion, I have no quarrel with those beliefs. The scriptures are what I am concerned with.
The actions of John hearing a voice and turning, are while he is in visionary state - in the spirit.
It doesn't say that is praying. That is your belief. If you are okay with that, fine.

Yes, I can go that.

 

[David Kent]

I don’t know much about 70 AD. All we know about 70AD comes from outside the Bible and I’m not sure I believe the accounts.

70 AD seems like a smokescreen used to cover what really happened when they crucified Jesus.

The events between the crucifixtion and the resurrection are mind blowing. God came down and wreaked havoc on the earth. The sun went dark at mid day, God shot out devouring fire out of his mouth, there was a massive earthquake, dead people came out of the ground and walked the streets of Jerusalem.

Funny thing is, I’ve never heard a preacher preach on those event or even mention that those events took place.we

Fulfillment of prophecy will always come from outside the Bible. History unveils prophecy. Fantasy ideas about the future also come from outside the bible.

 

[CoreyD]

Corey, I don't what translation you are using, so you might be getting a different impression than me. In the kjv...

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

In verse 9, John said that he was in the isle of Patmos. In verse 10, it does not say that John was being carried away... such as saying suddenly or immediately in the Spirit.

In Revelation 4:2 it does say "And immediately I was in the Spirit", which would indicate being carried away in that case.

Corey, I am thinking the tone of John's voice in that verse as being different than in Revelation 1:10. Try reading the two verses out loud, as if it were you in John's place right there at the time.

The translation or verses are no different Doug.
The key is what I put in bold.
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet

The state John is in - a visionary state, is what allows him to hear the voice behind him. No one is actually standing behind John. Everything John sees, is visionary.
Yes, Revelation 4:2 shows that the spirit carries John (I hope you don't think John flew into heaven), which really verifies what I said, because it is under the inspiration of the spirit, that John is receiving his visions.

Consider Stephen.
Acts 7:55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed steadily into heaven and saw the glory of God, and he saw Jesus standing in the place of honor at God’s right hand.

How the spirit operates on the individual allows them to see visions, or as in the case of the Bible writers have God's thoughts transmitted to them - 2 Peter 1:21
In any cases, they are under inspiration of the spirit, and the point is, it does not mean praying.

Yes, I can go that.

I totally understand Doug.
Thanks for a respectful discussion.

 

[grafted branch]

It is an eternal unconditional promise.

It will happen to the Israel alive at the Second Coming.

Well is that Israel a nation or not?

An unconditional, eternal promise of peace made to a nation that will not be before God is essentially saying eternal peace can be had without God.

 

[grafted branch]

What am I missing?

The New Testament

Are you saying that you are reading Daniel with a preconceived idea?

If you’re calling the entire New Testament a preconceived idea then yea, we need to read Daniel with this preconceived idea.

Let me ask you this, was Jesus the promised Messiah or not?

 

[Douggg]

The translation or verses are no different Doug.
The key is what I put in bold.
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet

The state John is in - a visionary state, is what allows him to hear the voice behind him. No one is actually standing behind John. Everything John sees, is visionary.
Yes, Revelation 4:2 shows that the spirit carries John (I hope you don't think John flew into heaven), which really verifies what I said, because it is under the inspiration of the spirit, that John is receiving his visions.

Corey, the difference between Revelation 1:10 and Revelation 4:2 is that in 1:10, John said he was in the Spirit - before hearing the great voice, as of a trumpet.

Differently ,in 4:2, John heard the voice, like a trumpet, and John then afterward was in the Spirit.

I totally understand Doug.
Thanks for a respectful discussion.

okay, we disagree, no big deal.

 

[Bob_1000]

Fulfillment of prophecy will always come from outside the Bible. History unveils prophecy. Fantasy ideas about the future also come from outside the bible.

It will only come from outside the Bible in belief systems that hold to a third coming of Jesus.

 

[CoreyD]

The New Testament

No. I use that.
You can't say what I am missing from Daniel?
Perhaps that is because I missed what grafted believes?

If you’re calling the entire New Testament a preconceived idea then yea, we need to read Daniel with this preconceived idea.

Since I am not saying that, I guess you are saying your answer to my question "Are you saying that you are reading Daniel with a preconceived idea?" is "No".
Then please - this is the third time I am asking.

Why can't we come to a final conclusion on what Daniel explained in Chapter 7? What Conclusions are we looking for?​

Please explain what Daniel does not tell us, that you are looking for. Or what doubts you have on what Daniel tells us.​

Let me ask you this, was Jesus the promised Messiah or not?

It's not fair to ignore someone's question, then formulate questions to ask the person - especially questions that are foreign to what the discussion is on.

I'll answer any questions you have, after you answer the ones I asked, which you did not answer.
That's fair, isn't it?

 

[CoreyD]

Corey, the difference between Revelation 1:10 and Revelation 4:2 is that in 1:10, John said he was in the Spirit - before hearing the great voice, as of a trumpet.

Differently ,in 4:2, John heard the voice, like a trumpet, and John then afterward was in the Spirit.

No Doug. You are creating a difference that need not be considered.
The point is, John is in the spirit, and how that spirit operates on him, is his description.
He is reporting his experience to people who understand what in the spirit means. He could not well say, I came to be in the spirit. I saw an open door to heaven and a voice said "Come on up here", and suddenly I found myself staring at..."

He let his readers who understood that under inspiration of the spirit, the scene changed.
Anyway, there is no need to make this am argument. You already said you want to go with your opinion.
So, no worries.

 

[grafted branch]

Since I am not saying that, I guess you are saying your answer to my question "Are you saying that you are reading Daniel with a preconceived idea?" is "No".
Then please - this is the third time I am asking.

I have already answered all your questions you just haven’t acknowledged it, so I will repeat it for you.

Why can't we come to a final conclusion on what Daniel explained in Chapter 7?

Because all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

What Conclusions are we looking for?

We are looking for conclusions that harmonize with all scriptures, that is what we are looking for.

Please explain what Daniel does not tell us, that you are looking for.

Daniel does not tell us that the scribes and Pharisees were able to prevent people from entering the kingdom of heaven, and that they did this while they sat in Moses’ seat.

I'll answer any questions you have, after you answer the ones I asked, which you did not answer.
That's fair, isn't it?

No need to answer any more of my questions, you have already given enough evidence as to why you’ve been avoiding the words of Jesus.

Thanks for the conversation.

 

[David Kent]

It will only come from outside the Bible in belief systems that hold to a third coming of Jesus.

That doesn't make sense, I believe there is only coming of Jesus in the future. He will return in the same manner that he went. ACTS 1

 

[David Kent]

I don’t know much about 70 AD. All we know about 70AD comes from outside the Bible and I’m not sure I believe the accounts.

70 AD seems like a smokescreen used to cover what really happened when they crucified Jesus.

The events between the crucifixtion and the resurrection are mind blowing. God came down and wreaked havoc on the earth. The sun went dark at mid day, God shot out devouring fire out of his mouth, there was a massive earthquake, dead people came out of the ground and walked the streets of Jerusalem.

Funny thing is, I’ve never heard a preacher preach on those event or even mention that those events took place.

Strange. You must have been in dispensationalist churches.

 

[Timtofly]

How the spirit operates on the individual allows them to see visions, or as in the case of the Bible writers have God's thoughts transmitted to them - 2 Peter 1:21
In any cases, they are under inspiration of the spirit, and the point is, it does not mean praying.

John was not just seeing things. John was experiencing them and writing them down as he experienced them. He was not dreaming nor simply inspired.

"Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit."

"Come and see. And I saw."

It is personal interpretation that concludes this was a series of dreams. Daniel had a series of dreams, and it was recorded that way. John never once claimed he was dreaming nor in a trance, nor simply inspired.

Revelation 1:10 could also be stated: "in spirit in the Day of the Lord". From the perspective of the Day of the Lord, the rest of the book was past, present (the Day of the Lord), and the future.

The book was not written from the perspective of the first century being the present.

In this verse we see 5 kingdoms had already fallen. In the first century, only 3 had fallen and Rome was the 4th kingdom.

Revelation 17:9-10

"And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

So at this particular present reference, the entire statue of Daniel 2 is in the past. The 6th Kingdom is about to end, and the 7th kingdom is the Millennial Kingdom, the Day of the Lord. But we also see the insertion of an 8th kingdom that interrupts the 7th kingdom for a short period of time.

"And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

The 7th kingdom is not part of this beast at all. The 7th head is the temporary 8th kingdom.

Revelation 12 is the historical relationship between Satan and the statue of Daniel 2. Revelation 13 is the historical relationship of this statue with humanity. Revelation 17 is the historical relationship of this statue with religion. The ten kings never have a kingdom, but are ten humans arising during the Trumpets and Thunders who bring their nations and armies to side with Satan in some coalition that literally wipes out all religion on earth, and attempts to reconcile humanity with Satan against Jesus Christ without religion.

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

So it would seem that the stone started out during the 4th kingdom at the Cross, and grew to finally obliterate the 5 kingdom statue, around the time of the Reformation. It thus grew into a mountain filling the whole earth, the effect of the Gospel taken to the whole earth, and every nation. The 6th Kingdom was defunct as no single nation ruled the earth.

At the Second Coming, the 6th Seal, the 6th Kingdom is brought to life by Satan. That kingdom ends at the 7th Trumpet, when Jesus is declared King of the 7th kingdom.

In the midst of the week of days of the 7th Trumpet, God will either allow Satan 42 months as the 8th kingdom, or not.

So John left the first century, because what he was a witness to was not about the first century. Even the 19th century was in the past, according the present John was witnessing.

 

[Timtofly]

Well is that Israel a nation or not?

An unconditional, eternal promise of peace made to a nation that will not be before God is essentially saying eternal peace can be had without God.

Well Jesus is not King of a nation that has no people existing in that nation.

That promise has not been realized. What you claim is that the promise will never be realized by physical ethnicity. Yet the promise was written to a physical ethnicity, not a symbolic nor spiritual phenomenon.

Jeremiah was not writing to an NT church that was hundreds of years in the future.

 

[grafted branch]

That promise has not been realized. What you claim is that the promise will never be realized by physical ethnicity. Yet the promise was written to a physical ethnicity, not a symbolic nor spiritual phenomenon.

That problem is solved by Romans 9:6 For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

No doubt Paul was looking at the Old Testament scriptures and understood that there are some cases where the word Israel is referring to saved people and not a nation.

 

[Timtofly]

Strange. You must have been in dispensationalist churches.

Some churches still teach the Bible. You must have been in churches that only teach man's writings?

 

[Timtofly]

That problem is solved by Romans 9:6 For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

No doubt Paul was looking at the Old Testament scriptures and understood that there are some cases where the word Israel is referring to saved people and not a nation.

Or it is still unfulfilled.

You do have a problem in replacing the church with ethnic Israel.

One is a spiritual Kingdom of God.

The other is physical Jesus on a physical throne on earth.

 

[Bob_1000]

Strange. You must have been in dispensationalist churches.

I started out as a dispensationalist but when I started reading the bible for myself too many things didn't line up so I went with what I saw in the bible.

I said third coming in my earlier post because the first time Jesus came was at his birth, the second time he came was when he was raised from the dead.

Futurist believe Jesus is coming back to earth a third time in the future while Preterist believe the presence of Jesus (whatever that means) returned in 70 AD.

 

[grafted branch]

Or it is still unfulfilled.

You do have a problem in replacing the church with ethnic Israel.

One is a spiritual Kingdom of God.

The other is physical Jesus on a physical throne on earth.

I don’t want to get into a long debate over when to spiritualize or not, but it was Paul who replaced ethnic Israel not me.

As I said earlier, an unconditional, eternal promise of peace made to a nation that will not be before God is essentially saying eternal peace can be had without God.