Michael stands up - Daniel 12:1, Revelation 12:7-9

[CoreyD]

The people of the saints of the most High are given the kingdom in the iron legs (Roman Empire) area of the statue. There is a mixture of iron and clay until 70Ad when the stone cut without hands breaks the statue.

Can you please point out the exact verse where you read that.

This is my opinion but I do see other possibilities as to when the stone breaks the statue, so I’m not going to give a hard debate on that.

I think the key here is pin down when the people of the saints of the most High are given the kingdom.

If we pin down when the people of the saints of the most High are given the kingdom, to after Rome, would you accept that?

 

[grafted branch]

Can you please point out the exact verse where you read that.

In Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, and Luke 9:27 there were some standing there that which didn’t taste death until they saw the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

These verses show the kingdom came in the first century, it’s difficult to tell exactly when because there could’ve been a new born baby present when this statement was made.

In Matthew 21:33-45 is the parable of the wicked tenants. In verse 42 Jesus is the stone that the builders rejected. Verse 44 the stone will grind them to powder. Verse 45 the chief priest and Pharisees understood this was referring to them.

I think the stone cut without hands is Christ and the statue being destroyed is when the chief priest and Pharisees were ground to powder.

If we pin down when the people of the saints of the most High are given the kingdom, to after Rome, would you accept that?

Yea, I definitely willing to examine this, I tend to place more weight on what the Bible says vs historical records or even what the early church fathers said.

 

[CoreyD]

Our beliefs should be based on scripture.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

John was on the isle of Patmos that day.

"In the Spirit" means in that verse, that John was enthusiastically praising God in prayer and perhaps song, on a Sunday, the Lord's day... when suddenly he hears a voice sounding like a trumpet from behind. He turns and sees Jesus, behind him, as reality changes.

Where is the scripture that says "in the Spirit" means in that verse, that John was enthusiastically praising God in prayer and perhaps song", and where is the scripture that says the Lord's day is Sunday?

 

[CoreyD]

In Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, and Luke 9:27 there were some standing there that which didn’t taste death until they saw the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

These verses show the kingdom came in the first century, it’s difficult to tell exactly when because there could’ve been a new born baby present when this statement was made.

In Matthew 21:33-45 is the parable of the wicked tenants. In verse 42 Jesus is the stone that the builders rejected. Verse 44 the stone will grind them to powder. Verse 45 the chief priest and Pharisees understood this was referring to them.

I think the stone cut without hands is Christ and the statue being destroyed is when the chief priest and Pharisees were ground to powder.

We are in Daniel Chapter 7, grafted.
We are considering the stream of time, when the Saints receive the Kingdom.
Perhaps you can save your interpretations for later. Right now we are asking Daniel to tell us.

Yea, I definitely willing to examine this, I tend to place more weight on what the Bible says vs historical records or even what the early church fathers said.

Good.

 

[DavidPT]

Heaven above was measured in Revelation 21:15-16 it’s 12,000 furlongs and it’s four square. The foundation of the earth was searched out in Revelation 13:8 the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This all has to do with the new covenant which is what Jeremiah 31 is talking about.

Look what you are doing, though.

Jeremiah 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

Obviously, and I'm guessing even you don't dispute this, meaning this part---neither the sand of the sea measured--is literally meaning what it says, that the literal sand of the sea, it literally can't be measured.

But when it comes to this verse below, now you apparently decide that there is actually no literal heaven above that includes literal stars, literal planets, a literal sun, a literal moon, a literal heaven where God is dwelling, and who knows what all else that it might include that we don't even know about yet.

Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.


Per you interpretation, unlike Jeremiah 33:22 where it obviously literally means that the sand of the sea can't be measured, heaven above per Jeremiah 31:37 is not even meaning what it literally means, that it is literally talking about the literal heaven above, via that of the perspective of the literal earth below, but is meaning in a non literal sense. That way you feel justified to interpret verse 36 in the manner you do.

From past discussions with you about verse 37 and your interpretation of it in light of Revelation 21:15-16, it was preposterous back then and still is and never will be anything but preposterous unless you want to argue that there is literally no literal heaven above consisting of space, a sun, a moon, planets, stars, so on and so on, that when we look up into the sky we are just hallucinating since none of the things we can see with the naked eye or even with telescopes, such as stars, the sun, the moon, even literally exist.

Unfortunately, sometimes you come across as one of the most clueless interpreters I have ever encountered in my life when you can't even properly discern that heaven above per Jeremiah 31:36, this is meaning in a literal sense since there is literally such a thing as the literal heaven above. Obviously then, the literal heaven above can't be measured, which then means the opposite of what you have decided about Israel is the real truth, not what you have made up in your head instead.

 

[grafted branch]

We are in Daniel Chapter 7, grafted.
We are considering the stream of time, when the Saints receive the Kingdom.
Perhaps you can save your interpretations for later. Right now we are asking Daniel to tell us.

Well I think it’s going to be more debatable if we just look at Daniel 7. For example …

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The time came that the saints possessed the kingdom but in Daniel 7:27 the kingdom is given to the people of the saints of the most High.

We could debate if the kingdom was taken from the saints and given to the people of the saints or whether these two verses are both just referring to the same thing and same time. Daniel 7 isn’t really clear on this, so I don’t think we can create a timeline based solely on Daniel 7 and expect it to be without some doubt.

 

[grafted branch]

Look what you are doing, though.

Jeremiah 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

Obviously, and I'm guessing even you don't dispute this, meaning this part---neither the sand of the sea measured--is literally meaning what it says, that the literal sand of the sea, it literally can't be measured.

But when it comes to this verse below, now you apparently decide that there is actually no literal heaven above that includes literal stars, literal planets, a literal sun, a literal moon, a literal heaven where God is dwelling, and who knows what all else that it might include that we don't even know about yet.

Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.


Per you interpretation, unlike Jeremiah 33:22 where it obviously literally means that the sand of the sea can't be measured, heaven above per Jeremiah 31:37 is not even meaning what it literally means, that it is literally talking about the literal heaven above, via that of the perspective of the literal earth below, but is meaning in a non literal sense. That way you feel justified to interpret verse 36 in the manner you do.

From past discussions with you about verse 37 and your interpretation of it in light of Revelation 21:15-16, it was preposterous back then and still is and never will be anything but preposterous unless you want to argue that there is literally no literal heaven above consisting of space, a sun, a moon, planets, stars, so on and so on, that when we look up into the sky we are just hallucinating since none of the things we can see with the naked eye or even with telescopes, such as stars, the sun, the moon, even literally exist.

Unfortunately, sometimes you come across as one of the most clueless interpreters I have ever encountered in my life when you can't even properly discern that heaven above per Jeremiah 31:36, this is meaning in a literal sense since there is literally such a thing as the literal heaven above. Obviously then, the literal heaven above can't be measured, which then means the opposite of what you have decided about Israel is the real truth, not what you have made up in your head instead.

The Gentiles are never measured or counted in the scriptures, the Jews are counted.

Look at Revelation 11:1-2 those that worship in the temple are measured but the Gentiles are not. Revelation 7, the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel are counted or numbered, but in Revelation 7:9 the multitude that no man can number contains Gentiles.

Jeremiah 33:22 is referring to Gentiles, or at least the time when there is no difference between Jew and Gentile.

If you want to take Jeremiah 31:37 in the literal sense and claim that Israel remains a nation that’s fine with me, I see that we are in the new covenant and I’m just pointing out that at some point in time Israel will cease to be a nation no matter how you look at it.

 

[CoreyD]

Well I think it’s going to be more debatable if we just look at Daniel 7. For example …

I think people's interpretations are more debatable than scriptures speaking.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The time came that the saints possessed the kingdom but in Daniel 7:27 the kingdom is given to the people of the saints of the most High.

We could debate if the kingdom was taken from the saints and given to the people of the saints or whether these two verses are both just referring to the same thing and same time. Daniel 7 isn’t really clear on this, so I don’t think we can create a timeline based solely on Daniel 7 and expect it to be without some doubt.

We want to go back to here:

The people of the saints of the most High are given the kingdom in the iron legs (Roman Empire) area of the statue. There is a mixture of iron and clay until 70Ad when the stone cut without hands breaks the statue.

Can you please point out the exact verse where you read that.

This is my opinion but I do see other possibilities as to when the stone breaks the statue, so I’m not going to give a hard debate on that.

I think the key here is pin down when the people of the saints of the most High are given the kingdom.

So, according to Daniel, where in the stream of time, did the people of the saints of the most High receive the kingdom?
Was it not after here?
Daniel 7:8-10, 21, 22

 

[grafted branch]

Can you please point out the exact verse where you read that.

I can’t point to a verse that says exactly that, that is an interpretation of several verses, and some of the verses are not in Daniel.

So, according to Daniel, where in the stream of time, did the people of the saints of the most High receive the kingdom?
Was it not after here?
Daniel 7:8-10, 21, 22

Daniel 7:27 is the only place where it uses the phrase people of the saints of the most High. So according to the stream of time in Daniel, verse 27 would be the time.

 

[DavidPT]

I think the key here is pin down when the people of the saints of the most High are given the kingdom.

That seems easy enough to pin down. It is meaning during/after when the beast is given to the burning flame which is also meaning Revelation 19:20. Which then leads to the beginning of the thousand years.

I have pointed out the following before, but might only be relevant to the KJV and not other translations as well.

If one does an exact phrase search for the following in the KJV---and judgment was given---that exact phrase shows up 2 times in the Bible, one time in the OT and one time in the NT.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is what they look like side by side, so to speak.

and judgment was given to the saints of the most High
and judgment was given unto them

In the event we didn't know who the 'them' is referring to in Revelation 20:4, we do now. It is meaning the saints of the most High according to Daniel 7:22. We then also know from Revelation 20:4 that the time frame involving Daniel 7:22 when the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom, that it is at the beginning of the thousand years being when this is initially fulfilled.

But before Daniel 7:22 can even be fulfilled, Daniel 7:21 obviously has to be fulfilled first.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them

Obviously, when Daniel 7:21 is still in progress, meaning before verse 22 is fulfilled, Daniel 7:11 hasn't been fulfilled yet. That cannot get fulfilled until Christ's bodily coming recorded in verse 22 is fulfilled first. Once that happens we are in the time involving verses 9-12, which is also the same time some of Revelation 19 is involving, in particular, verse 20.

Let's sum this up. When Daniel 7:22 is meaning, it is meaning after what Daniel 7:21 is involving, and that verse 21 is involving a period of time prior to what Revelation 19:20 is involving. And that Daniel 9:10-12 is involving what Revelation 19:20 is involving, and that Daniel 7:22 is involving what Revelation 20:4 is involving.

The chronology would basically look like this. First the era of time involving Daniel 7:21. Then following that the coming recorded in verse 22. Followed by what is recorded in Daniel 7:9-12 and Revelation 19:20, followed by the beginning of the thousand years when judgment is given to the saints of the most High, the time that comes that the saints possess the kingdom.

That is the chronology, regardless. Which obviously means, in regards to where the thousand years actually fit, only Premil has that correctly identified. It fits after Christ returns in the end of this age. To try and make it fit somewhere else makes nonsense out of the chronology of events leading up to the beginning of the thousand years.

Because, according to Daniel 7 the thousand years can't begin until Daniel 7:21 is fulfilled first. And that this same little horn has to be given to the burning flame which can't occur until the coming recorded in verse 22 is fulfilled first. During verse 22 is when the time comes that the saints possess the kingdom and that it is meaning at the beginning of the thousand years, Revelation 20:4.

 

[Bob_1000]

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

How can Daniel 7:22 not be this.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[CoreyD]

I can’t point to a verse that says exactly that, that is an interpretation of several verses, and some of the verses are not in Daniel.

Daniel 7:27 is the only place where it uses the phrase people of the saints of the most High. So according to the stream of time in Daniel, verse 27 would be the time.

I hope that does not mean you are saying we cannot pin down when the people of the saints of the most High are given the kingdom, except we accept someone's interpretation of other scripture, because while Daniel 7 isn’t really clear, the persons' interpretation is.

I think Daniel is clear about quite a lot.
Daniel 7
four 4 great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other

2 Daniel spoke, saying, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other.

We know that in the Bible, beasts represent kingdoms.
Babylon
The first 1

4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.

Media Persia
The second 2

5 “And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’

Greece
The third 3

6 “After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.

Rome
The fourth 4

7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.

We know that in the Bible horns represent kings and kingdoms Daniel 8:3

Rulerships after Rome - 1 horn comes up among the 10, humiliating - removing 3 of the 10

8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

The little horn itself, is a kingdom - a king with a dominion. Daniel 7:26
I am not sure if you disagree with that.
However, what we establish so far, from Daniel 7, without any doubt at all, is :

1. The succession of Kingdoms are sequential, and so are the events.
2. This vision corresponds to the image in Nebuchadnezzar's dream.

Daniel continues his vision
After the dominion of the little horn, these events follow :
A judgment on these kingdoms

9 “I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated...
10 ...The court was seated, And the books were opened.
11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.
12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

A crowning of the Messianic king

13 “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.

The Saints receive the kingdom

21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,
22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

What we establish here, from Daniel 7, without any doubt at all, is :

1. The kingdom becomes Christ's.
2. The kingdom becomes the Saints'.

Thus, the kingdom begins to rule at this point - when the horn is speaking pompously in opposition to God..
This corresponds to Daniel 2:44 In the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed...

So, it is at this timeline, that we have reached this point.
God's kingdom now rules
a stone was cut out without hands Daniel 2:34; Daniel 7:13, 14, 22

After Daniel relates the sequence of events, he then relates the angel's explanation.

23 “Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be A fourth kingdom on earth, Which shall be different from all other kingdoms, And shall devour the whole earth, Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.
26 ‘But the court shall be seated, And they shall take away his [the little horn's] dominion, To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

28 “This is the end of the account. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly troubled me, and my countenance changed; but I kept the matter in my heart.”

The angel is explaining the vision - what will happen.
Thus, verse 27 does not remove or replace the timeline of verse 22. It explains the final outcome all in one. The kingdom in the hands of Jesus and the Saints, will rule the whole earth, as stated in Daniel 7:14, and Daniel 2:35

Just from considering Daniel 7 alone, we have everything explained to us, even with little or no background knowledge, and it does not leave us in doubt.
What exactly are you in doubt about?

 

[DavidPT]

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

How can Daniel 7:22 not be this.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The only way it can be, the fact Daniel 7:21 has to precede verse 22 chronologically, one has to then show how verse 21 preceded that passage and then show how the little horn was already given to the burning flame before that passage you submitted is meaning. Obviously, verse 22 is involving the same era of time Daniel 7:9-12 is involving.

 

[CoreyD]

That seems easy enough to pin down. It is meaning during/after when the beast is given to the burning flame which is also meaning Revelation 19:20. Which then leads to the beginning of the thousand years.

I have pointed out the following before, but might only be relevant to the KJV and not other translations as well.

If one does an exact phrase search for the following in the KJV---and judgment was given---that exact phrase shows up 2 times in the Bible, one time in the OT and one time in the NT.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is what they look like side by side, so to speak.

and judgment was given to the saints of the most High
and judgment was given unto them

In the event we didn't know who the 'them' is referring to in Revelation 20:4, we do now. It is meaning the saints of the most High according to Daniel 7:22. We then also know from Revelation 20:4 that the time frame involving Daniel 7:22 when the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom, that it is at the beginning of the thousand years being when this is initially fulfilled.

But before Daniel 7:22 can even be fulfilled, Daniel 7:21 obviously has to be fulfilled first.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them

Obviously, when Daniel 7:21 is still in progress, meaning before verse 22 is fulfilled, Daniel 7:11 hasn't been fulfilled yet. That cannot get fulfilled until Christ's bodily coming recorded in verse 22 is fulfilled first. Once that happens we are in the time involving verses 9-12, which is also the same time some of Revelation 19 is involving, in particular, verse 20.

Let's sum this up. When Daniel 7:22 is meaning, it is meaning after what Daniel 7:21 is involving, and that verse 21 is involving a period of time prior to what Revelation 19:20 is involving. And that Daniel 9:10-12 is involving what Revelation 19:20 is involving, and that Daniel 7:22 is involving what Revelation 20:4 is involving.

The chronology would basically look like this. First the era of time involving Daniel 7:21. Then following that the coming recorded in verse 22. Followed by what is recorded in Daniel 7:9-12 and Revelation 19:20, followed by the beginning of the thousand years when judgment is given to the saints of the most High, the time that comes that the saints possess the kingdom.

That is the chronology, regardless. Which obviously means, in regards to where the thousand years actually fit, only Premil has that correctly identified. It fits after Christ returns in the end of this age. To try and make it fit somewhere else makes nonsense out of the chronology of events leading up to the beginning of the thousand years.

Because, according to Daniel 7 the thousand years can't begin until Daniel 7:21 is fulfilled first. And that this same little horn has to be given to the burning flame which can't occur until the coming recorded in verse 22 is fulfilled first. During verse 22 is when the time comes that the saints possess the kingdom and that it is meaning at the beginning of the thousand years, Revelation 20:4.

The thousand year reign of Christ cannot begin before the stone pulverizes the image, which means all the kingdoms of the earth are destroyed. See Revelation 16:14-16; Revelation 19:19

 

[CoreyD]

The only way it can be, the fact Daniel 7:21 has to precede verse 22 chronologically, one has to then show how verse 21 preceded that passage and then show how the little horn was already given to the burning flame before that passage you submitted is meaning. Obviously, verse 22 is involving the same era of time Daniel 7:9-12 is involving.

The little horn is not given to the burning flame. The beast is.

 

[Bob_1000]

The only way it can be, the fact Daniel 7:21 has to precede verse 22 chronologically, one has to then show how verse 21 preceded that passage and then show how the little horn was already given to the burning flame before that passage you submitted is meaning. Obviously, verse 22 is involving the same era of time Daniel 7:9-12 is involving.

Agreed, that will not work in a futurist view. In your view, if the saints already possess the kingdom now as Jesus said, then how does that work? Did we lose the kingdom at some point? I'm not sure how that would play out in the futurist view.

 

[DavidPT]

The thousand year reign of Christ cannot begin before the stone pulverizes the image, which means all the kingdoms of the earth are destroyed. See Revelation 16:14-16; Revelation 19:19

Apparently, I never raised that particular point, yet, I see no reason to disagree with it. It just means I never brought that up. So yes, unless I'm misunderstanding you somewhere here, I tend to agree with this.

 

[CoreyD]

Apparently, I never raised that particular point, yet, I see no reason to disagree with it. It just means I never brought that up. So yes, unless I'm misunderstanding you somewhere here, I tend to agree with this.

Just clarifying. Thanks

 

[DavidPT]

The little horn is not given to the burning flame. The beast is.

Can you expand on this further so that I can see why you are concluding this? In the event you are correct, I at least need to know why and how.

 

[DavidPT]

Agreed, that will not work in a futurist view. In your view, if the saints already possess the kingdom now as Jesus said, then how does that work? Did we lose the kingdom at some point? I'm not sure how that would play out in the futurist view.

I grasp your point, it's a good point. Yet, still, what verse 21 is involving, it has to be fulfilled before what verse 22 is involving can be fulfilled. What do you propose fits what verse 21 is involving and was fulfilled before that passage you submitted is involving? Let me guess. Probably has something to do with 70 AD one way or another, right? Meaning what verse 21 in Daniel 7 is involving.