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CoreyD

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Because when an angel brings a message, often the angel does a lot more than bring the message. But a messenger might not do anything else.

As for scriptural backing > the scriptures say that Jesus was not made manifest until He came in the flesh.
How does that make the angel Jesus?
Michael and Gabriel were in existence. Is that not so?
In the book of Daniel, Michael came to the aid of angels Daniel 10:18, and as chief angel, Michael has significant special roles in God's purpose Revelation 12:7.
Making assumptions is not scriptural backing. You know this.

So, calling Him the "Angel of the LORD" could be part of not fully manifesting Jesus until His time.
Could be... However, we don't want to just assume.

And the term is the metaphor > like how using "Lamb" is metaphorical while Jesus is not a metaphor. He could be called a messenger, too . . . though He is so more as God's own Son.
I have no problem people having an opinion.
However, I'm more interested in scriptural support, than opinion. Various people have various opinions. Like this one.
An angel just means messenger, it doesn’t always mean a created being. Jesus is not a created being but He is the greatest Messenger of all.
The Bible however, is more important to me, than people's opinions.
The Bible presents angels, as spirit beings - a product of God's creation.
They did not always exist, and they certainly aren't God. Psalm 103:20, 21; Psalm 104:4; Hebrews 1:7; 2 Peter 2:11

If persons are willing to say Jesus is the angel of the "OT", and then take a "band aid" and place over a gaping wound in their theology, that's entirely up to them, but if they cannot provide one single scripture to support it, it's nothing more than an idea, they are more than happy to promote, because it "comforts" them.

As I pointed out previously, a person does not have liberty to say something is the case, and the only basis they have for doing so, is that they said it. None of us should accept that.
Or would you accept persons doing that?

I believe what 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 says.
Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, having been fully equipped toward every good work.

If the scriptures cannot be used to reach a unanimous conclusion, there isn't any benefit to arguing on about it.
The use of angel isn't used metaphorically in any of those verses in the "OT", and comparing figurative usage of an eagle, a lion, lamb, sheep or goat, to the use of angel is not merited simply on the basis of opinion.

So, considering we are making no headway on this, let's move on.
@SabbathBlessings if you have references to support your statements, that would be appreciated.
I'll look out for those, in keeping with the Statement of Purpose Guidelines.
The Bible clearly shows though, that angels are lower beings, though above man. Hebrews 1:4, 6; Hebrews 2:7, 9
They are created beings.

Moving forward...
 
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CoreyD

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Vision of a City
Revelation 3:12
The one overcoming, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall not go out anymore. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.​

Revelation 21:2
And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having been prepared as a bride having been adorned for her husband.


Revelation 21:9, 10
And one of the seven angels... came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." And he carried me away in the Spirit... and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.
measuringCity.png


The Angel's Explanation
Revelation 19:6-9
6 And I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude, like the rushing of many waters, and like a mighty rumbling of thunder, crying out: “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.​
7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him the glory. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready.​
8 She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.” For the fine linen she wears is the righteous acts of the saints.​
9 Then the angel told me to write, “Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”​

Symbolic Reference
The lamb's wife is the city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. Revelation 21:9, 10
The marriage takes place as the kingdom reigns over the earth. Revelation 19:6, 7; Revelation 21:1-4
The beauty and adornment of the lamb's wife is the holy and righteous acts of the Saints. Revelation 19:8
So, this city is a spiritual building. Ephesians 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:5, 6

theMarriage.png


The angel explains that the city New Jerusalem is the Saints that will rule with him for the thousand years, and will serve as priests and judges.
Let us pay close attention to the angel as he describe the bride and it's role, as illustrated.

theBrideOnZion.png
 
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SabbathBlessings

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How does that make the angel Jesus?
Michael and Gabriel were in existence. Is that not so?
In the book of Daniel, Michael came to the aid of angels Daniel 10:18, and as chief angel, Michael has significant special roles in God's purpose Revelation 12:7.
Making assumptions is not scriptural backing. You know this.
I agree, making assumptions is not scriptural backing . Here is a a whole study on it, if you get a chance give it a read and look at the Scripture references.

 
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CoreyD

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I agree, making assumptions is not scriptural backing . Here is a a whole study on it, if you get a chance give it a read and look at the Scripture references.

Thank you very kindly for the reference.
Since the thread is on angels, we can discuss this here.

#1
The article says...
Sometimes, men are called angels in the Bible 1 Samuel 29:9 Galatians 4:14. And sometimes angels are called men Genesis 32:24.

Tell me if you do not agree with me, that these statements are false.
"You are as blameless in my sight as an angel of God", is like saying, you are as refreshing as a stream.
Am I calling you a stream? Of course not.
Using similes such as like, or as, are figures of speech that compare two different things in order to highlight similarities between them.

So, the author is mistaken there.
At Genesis 32:24, the angel... as is their custom, manifest as men... not women, so as to be visible to humans.
That's not to say angels are men. Angels are spirit... like the wind. Unless they "clothe" themselves, they cannot be seen.
Jesus said God prepared him a body. Hebrews 10:5
This is how he was manifest as a man.

#2
The article says...
In the Greek New Testament, the word "angel" means "messenger," and "arch" means "chief, principle, greatest, or highest." So "archangel" simply means "highest or greatest messenger."

I have no problem if you are using the word messenger, instead of angel, but if you are going to be inconsistent, I have a problem with that?
Either stick with chief messenger, or stick with angel, because, "when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit upon His throne of glory" refers to the angelic sons of God, and one cannot be consistent, in highlighting the angelic army of God, as mere messengers.
2 Chronicles 18:18
Then Micaiah continued, “Listen to what the LORD says! I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the armies [tsaba: Host, army, service, warfare] of heaven around him, on his right and on his left.​

If you believe I am wrong, I'd be happy if you point out where.
Thank you.

#3
The author continues...
Gabriel is called "an" angel of the Lord (Luke 1:11). He is not referred to as "the" angel of the Lord. Neither is he ever called the archangel. ...In fact, there are several references in Scripture to a mysterious being identified as "the angel of the Lord" before Christ's earthly incarnation.

Perhaps you can answer in behalf of the author of the article.
How do you respond to the fact that the scriptures at Exodus 23:20; Exodus 33:2; Numbers 20:16, do not use the definite article "the", as in the angel?
In fact, I am sure it would surprise the author to know that not one verse uses the definite article, in reference to the angel of the "OT".
So, in Hebrew, you would not read "the angel of the LORD".

What would be your response, in his behalf?

What I see then, is another opinion, and arguments to support that opinion... many of them false.
However, if you are sticking to messenger, that's fine. That would be the "safe zone".
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Thank you very kindly for the reference.
Since the thread is on angels, we can discuss this here.
Since this is not a salvation issue and either of us do not believe Jesus is a created being, but He is the Lord of lords and King of kings and is from everlasting to everlasting, but He is called other names in Scripture.
#1
The article says...
Sometimes, men are called angels in the Bible 1 Samuel 29:9 Galatians 4:14. And sometimes angels are called men Genesis 32:24.

Tell me if you do not agree with me, that these statements are false.
"You are as blameless in my sight as an angel of God", is like saying, you are as refreshing as a stream.
Am I calling you a stream? Of course not.
Using similes such as like, or as, are figures of speech that compare two different things in order to highlight similarities between them.

So, the author is mistaken there.
At Genesis 32:24, the angel... as is their custom, manifest as men... not women, so as to be visible to humans.
That's not to say angels are men. Angels are spirit... like the wind. Unless they "clothe" themselves, they cannot be seen.
Jesus said God prepared him a body. Hebrews 10:5
This is how he was manifest as a man.
I think you are confusing what they are called, verses what they are. The author is not saying angles are men or that men are angels he said they are called that in the Scriptures and gave examples of it.
#2
The article says...
In the Greek New Testament, the word "angel" means "messenger," and "arch" means "chief, principle, greatest, or highest." So "archangel" simply means "highest or greatest messenger."

I have no problem if you are using the word messenger, instead of angel, but if you are going to be inconsistent, I have a problem with that?
Either stick with chief messenger, or stick with angel, because, "when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit upon His throne of glory" refers to the angelic sons of God, and one cannot be consistent, in highlighting the angelic army of God, as mere messengers.
2 Chronicles 18:18
Then Micaiah continued, “Listen to what the LORD says! I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the armies [tsaba: Host, army, service, warfare] of heaven around him, on his right and on his left.​

If you believe I am wrong, I'd be happy if you point out where.
Thank you.

#3
The author continues...
Gabriel is called "an" angel of the Lord (Luke 1:11). He is not referred to as "the" angel of the Lord. Neither is he ever called the archangel. ...In fact, there are several references in Scripture to a mysterious being identified as "the angel of the Lord" before Christ's earthly incarnation.

Perhaps you can answer in behalf of the author of the article.
How do you respond to the fact that the scriptures at Exodus 23:20; Exodus 33:2; Numbers 20:16, do not use the definite article "the", as in the angel?
In fact, I am sure it would surprise the author to know that not one verse uses the definite article, in reference to the angel of the "OT".
So, in Hebrew, you would not read "the angel of the LORD".

What would be your response, in his behalf?

What I see then, is another opinion, and arguments to support that opinion... many of them false.
However, if you are sticking to messenger, that's fine. That would be the "safe zone".
Perhaps take another read…
If you look at Daniel 10:13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me."

It appears at first glance that Michael is only "one of" the chief princes. This is an unfortunate translation in the King James. The word "one" comes from the Hebrew word "echad," which is also frequently translated as "first," as in the president's wife being called "first lady." (See Genesis 1:5; 8:13.) This changes the whole meaning of the verse to Michael being first of, greatest or highest of, to the chief of princes

Daniel 10:21 says, "But I will show thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince." Notice here that the angel refers to Michael as your Prince.

Who was Daniel’s prince? In the previous chapter, we see the answer in Daniel 9:25

“Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

Daniel’s Messiah is called the prince, which is another clear indication of Michael’s identity! So Gabriel is saying that Michael the archangel is Jesus, who knows all the truth of Scripture. Michael Stands Up

“At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

Who has authority over heaven and earth? Jesus Mat 28:18-20

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first." It is the voice of the archangel that raises the dead in Christ, and the Lord Himself who shouts it. This indicates that they are one and the same. Jesus is the one who shouts with the voice of the archangel, or "greatest messenger," to raise the dead!


This is not a new concept, it’s what the Reformers believed too. I am ok agreeing to disagree though.
 
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CoreyD

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Since this is not a salvation issue and either of us do not believe Jesus is a created being, but He is the Lord of lords and King of kings and is from everlasting to everlasting, but He is called other names in Scripture.

I think you are confusing what they are called, verses what they are. The author is not saying angles are men or that men are angels he said they are called that in the Scriptures and gave examples of it.
The author said... Sometimes, men are called angels in the Bible.
That is not true.
You are not called a stream, if I say, 'you are as refreshing as a stream'.
You are not being called a lark, because someone says, 'you are as happy as a lark'.

Perhaps take another read…
Perhaps your reviewing my question, and the answer to it, would show that I do not need to do that.
"You are as blameless in my sight as an angel of God", is like saying, you are as refreshing as a stream.
Am I calling you a stream? Of course not.

If you look at Daniel 10:13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me."

It appears at first glance that Michael is only "one of" the chief princes. This is an unfortunate translation in the King James. The word "one" comes from the Hebrew word "echad," which is also frequently translated as "first," as in the president's wife being called "first lady." (See Genesis 1:5; 8:13.) This changes the whole meaning of the verse to Michael being first of, greatest or highest of, to the chief of princes

Daniel 10:21 says, "But I will show thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince." Notice here that the angel refers to Michael as your Prince.

Who was Daniel’s prince? In the previous chapter, we see the answer in Daniel 9:25

“Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

Daniel’s Messiah is called the prince, which is another clear indication of Michael’s identity! So Gabriel is saying that Michael the archangel is Jesus, who knows all the truth of Scripture. Michael Stands Up

“At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

Who has authority over heaven and earth? Jesus Mat 28:18-20

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first." It is the voice of the archangel that raises the dead in Christ, and the Lord Himself who shouts it. This indicates that they are one and the same. Jesus is the one who shouts with the voice of the archangel, or "greatest messenger," to raise the dead!


This is not a new concept, it’s what the Reformers believed too. I am ok agreeing to disagree though.
Just to confirm... So, you believe Michael the archangel is the Lord Jesus Christ?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The author said... Sometimes, men are called angels in the Bible.
That is not true.
You are not called a stream, if I say, 'you are as refreshing as a stream'.
You are not being called a lark, because someone says, 'you are as happy as a lark'.


Perhaps your reviewing my question, and the answer to it, would show that I do not need to do that.
"You are as blameless in my sight as an angel of God", is like saying, you are as refreshing as a stream.
Am I calling you a stream? Of course not.
As I said previously, it’s not something I am going to continue to debate. We don’t have to agree and thats ok
Just to confirm... So, you believe Michael the archangel is the Lord Jesus Christ?
I believe Michael is another name for Jesus as shown from the Scriptures provided. It’s not just me who thinks this so did many of the Reformers

 
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CoreyD

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CoreyD

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No. As I stated clearly before Jesus is not a created being, Michael is another name for Jesus as shown through the Scriptures.
So you do not believe Michael the archangel is an angel.
Does that mean you believe that Michael is only an arch-Messenger, and not an archangel?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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So you do not believe Michael the archangel is an angel.
Angel means messenger. I already answered this question that Jesus is not a created-being but the Greatest Messenger of all.
Does that mean you believe that Michael is only an arch-Messenger, and not an archangel?
Watch the 6 minute video I posted of quotes and commentary by many of the Reformers who also believed Michael is another name for Jesus and why by Scripture.
 
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CoreyD

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Angel means messenger. I already answered this question that Jesus is not a created-being but the Greatest Messenger of all.
So where I read angel in the Bible, I should say it's a messenger and not an angel.
You don't appear to be be paying attention to what you are saying.

It's an angel, yes? Regardless of what it means.
You can't say God's angels are not angels, simply because you want Jesus to be an angel and not created.

God says they are his angels, and the son of man comes with all his angels. Matthew 25:31.
Either they are angels, or there are not.
The Bible says they are, and you say they are not.

Michael is an angel - the chief angel... the archangel. Jude 1:9
 
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SabbathBlessings

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So where I read angel in the Bible, I should say it's a messenger and not an angel.
You don't appear to be be paying attention to what you are saying.
You keep making arguments I am not making, where did I say that anywhere? An Angel means messenger, no where does it say it has to be a created-being. Of course there are angles who are created beings, probably billions of them, some good, some not. Jesus is not a created being, He is however the Chief Prince and Greatest Messenger.

I don’t think it’s me who is not paying attention. I made my point, I provided the Scriptures, I provided quotes from the Reformers who also believed the same. If you don’t want to beleive it, thats your choice.

Be well.
 
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CoreyD

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You keep making arguments I am not making, where did I say that anywhere? An Angel means messenger, no where does it say it has to be a created-being. Of course there are angles who are created beings, probably billions of them, some good, some not. Jesus is not a created being, He is however the Chief Prince and Greatest Messenger.
The Bible says angels are created beings.
I showed you those scriptures. Psalm 103:20, 21; Psalm 104:4; Hebrews 1:7; 2 Peter 2:11
On the other hand, you haven't shown any scripture that says some angels are not created beings.
Simply asserting something, isn't scripture.

I don’t think it’s me who is not paying attention. I made my point, I provided the Scriptures, I provided quotes from the Reformers who also believed the same. If you don’t want to beleive it, thats your choice.
None of these said that angels are not angels.
You directly said Michael is not an angel. These are your exact words to my question...
Do you believe Michael is an angel?​
No.​

So, I am paying attention.
You did deny what the scripture says about Michael being an angel.
You aren't aware of that?

I am, thanks. Go in peace.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The Bible says angels are created beings.
I showed you those scriptures. Psalm 103:20, 21; Psalm 104:4; Hebrews 1:7; 2 Peter 2:11
On the other hand, you haven't shown any scripture that says some angels are not created beings.
Simply asserting something, isn't scripture.


None of these said that angels are not angels.
You directly said Michael is not an angel. These are your exact words to my question...
Do you believe Michael is an angel?​
No.​

So, I am paying attention.
You did deny what the scripture says about Michael being an angel.
You aren't aware of that?


I am, thanks. Go in peace.
You keep making arguments I am not making, I never said angels are not created beings,I actually said the opposite. Angels means messengers, not necessarily that they have to be created beings as with the case of Michael. Another name for Jesus who is the chief Prince and Greatest Messenger who is not a created being, but is the God of the Universe.

Commentary by some of the Reformers

Insights from Protestant Theologian and Scholars​

John Gill on Michael in Daniel 12​

  1. Michael as Jesus Christ
The Archangel, who has all the angels of heaven under him, and at his command, the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ; who is as God, as the name signifies, truly and really God, and equal in nature, power, and glory, to his divine Father.
Gill identifies Michael as Jesus, emphasising His divine nature and supreme authority over all the angels of heaven. He ties this interpretation to the meaning of Michael’s name, “Who is like God?”

  1. Michael’s Role in the End Times
He shall stand up… of his spiritual presence among his people, and protection of them, and continuance with them.
This “standing up” represents Christ’s active role in defending His people and reigning spiritually during critical times, particularly during the end-time events.

  1. Michael as the Great Prince
The great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people; the King of kings, and Lord of lords, the Prince of the kings of the earth.
Gill identifies Michael as Jesus in His role as protector and defender of God’s people (both spiritual Israel and, ultimately, the Jewish nation during their restoration).

  1. Time of Trouble and Deliverance
It is that time of trial, and hour of temptation, that shall come upon all the world, as it may concern the church and people of God… the last persecution of the saints, which will be short and sharp.
Gill connects the “time of trouble” to events described in Revelation, particularly the final struggle between Christ and the forces of antichrist. He also emphasises that Christ will ultimately deliver His people through these trials.

Matthew Henry on Michael as Jesus Christ​

  1. Michael as Christ, the Church’s Patron and Protector
Jesus Christ shall appear his church’s patron and protector: At that time, when the persecution is at the hottest, Michael shall stand up.
Matthew Henry directly identifies Michael with Jesus Christ, portraying Him as the defender of the church, stepping in when persecution reaches its peak.

  1. Michael as the Great Prince
Christ is that great prince, for he is the prince of the kings of the earth, Rev 1:5. And, if he stand up for his church, who can be against it?
Henry emphasises Christ’s supreme authority as the “Prince of the kings of the earth” and relates it to Michael’s role as the protector of God’s people.

  1. Michael’s Role in Salvation
Michael shall stand up for the working out of our eternal salvation; the Son of God shall be incarnate, shall be manifested to destroy the works of the devil.
He connects Michael’s standing to Christ’s incarnation and His mission to destroy Satan’s works (1 John 3:8), securing eternal salvation for believers.

  1. Michael as Advocate and Friend:
He stands for them in the intercession he ever lives to make within the veil, stands up for them, and stands their friend.
Henry highlights Christ’s role as intercessor and advocate, suggesting that Michael’s actions in Daniel 12 reflect Christ’s ongoing work of defending His people.

  1. Michael’s Final Victory:
After the destruction of antichrist, of whom Antiochus was a type, Christ shall stand at the latter day upon the earth, shall appear for the complete redemption of all his.
Henry associates Michael’s actions with Christ’s ultimate victory over evil and His role in redeeming His people, both in historical deliverances and at the end of time.

Summary

Matthew Henry clearly identifies Michael as Jesus Christ, interpreting Michael’s standing up for God’s people in Daniel 12:1 as symbolic of Christ’s roles as:

• Protector of His church during persecution.

• Prince and ruler over all creation.

• Saviour and Advocate, securing salvation and interceding for His people.

• Victor, defeating Satan and antichrist in the end times.

Henry’s Christ-centred interpretation sees Michael as another title for Jesus, highlighting His care, defence, and ultimate deliverance of His people.

Adam Clarke on Michael the Archangel​

Adam Clarke (1762-1832) was a Wesleyan and influential biblical scholar, who published a Bible commentary among other works. Here are some key quotes and insights from Adam Clarke on Jude 1:9:

  1. Michael’s Identity and Title:
Clarke connects Michael’s name and role with the divine:

The word Michael מיכאל, seems to be compounded of מי mi, who, כ ke, like, and אל El, God; he who is like God; hence by this personage, in the Apocalypse, many understand the Lord Jesus.
This ties Michael’s name to a Christological understanding, as Jesus is uniquely described in Scripture as the image of God (Hebrews 1:3) and equal with God (Philippians 2:6).

  1. Michael’s Unique Position as Archangel:
Clarke observes the singularity of the title “archangel” in Scripture, suggesting it could be uniquely tied to Christ:

Let it be observed that the word archangel is never found in the plural number in the sacred writings. There can be properly only one archangel, one chief or head of all the angelic host.
By linking this singular role to Michael and then to Christ, Clarke implies a special status that aligns with Jesus’ supreme authority over the angels (Hebrews 1:6).

  1. Michael as Advocate Against Satan:
Drawing from Jewish tradition, Clarke notes the parallels between Michael’s role and Christ’s intercession for believers:

Michael and Samael stand before the Lord; Satan accuses, but Michael shows the merits of Israel. Satan endeavors to speak, but Michael silences him.
This mirrors the biblical description of Jesus as our advocate who defends against Satan’s accusations (1 John 2:1; Revelation 12:10).

  1. Michael’s Contention Over Moses’ Body:
Clarke connects Michael’s dispute with Satan to the broader role of Christ in preserving God’s purposes for His people:

Michael is spoken of as one of the chief angels who took care of the Israelites as a nation; he may therefore have been the angel of the Lord before whom Joshua the high priest is said, Zechariah 3:1, to have stood, Satan being at his right hand to resist him.
In this view, Michael’s defence of Moses aligns with Christ’s protective and redemptive work for His people.

  1. Michael as the Leader of the Heavenly Hosts
Clarke highlights Revelation 12:7, where Michael leads the armies of heaven:

Michael is this archangel, and head of all the angelic orders… Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon and his angels.
This leadership role fits the portrayal of Christ in Revelation 19:11-16, where He leads the heavenly armies in triumph over evil.

Robert Hawker on the Archangel

The very name archangel signifies the first, or prince of the order of angels, consequently, there cannot be many firsts… Scripture speaks but of one archangel, and that officially, that archangel is Christ.
Hawker’s argument hinges on several key points:

  1. Michael as a Name of Office
Hawker notes that the title “archangel” is not a description of Christ’s nature but His office as the leader of the heavenly host. He argues that the role of Michael aligns with Christ’s divine authority and mission.

  1. Michael as Christ in Jude 1:9 and Zechariah 3:1-4
Addressing objections that Michael in Jude 1:9 cannot be Christ because He does not rebuke Satan directly, Hawker states:

The Lord Jesus durst not do it; not because he dared not, or had not the power, but because it belonged not to the Redeemer’s character, ‘who, when reviled, reviled not again, but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously.
Hawker compares this to Zechariah 3:1-4, where Christ rebukes Satan on behalf of Joshua (a symbol of God’s people), further linking Michael’s role to Christ’s intercessory work.

  1. The Angel of the Covenant and the Archangel
Hawker also connects Michael to the “Angel of the Covenant” (Malachi 3:1), asserting that both titles point to Christ:

Both the angel of the covenant and the archangel are one and the same… Christ, who is elsewhere called the angel of the covenant, for Christ took not on him the nature of angels, but the seed of Abraham.
By identifying Michael as Christ, Hawker strengthens the argument that the archangel is not a created being but a title reflecting Christ’s divine authority and role in leading the heavenly hosts.

There was more commentary as noted on the video previously posted.

Anyway, need to run. God bless! :wave:
 
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CoreyD

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You keep making arguments I am not making, I never said angels are not created beings,I actually said the opposite. Angels means messengers, not necessarily that they have to be created beings as with the case of Michael. Another name for Jesus who is the chief Prince and Greatest Messenger who is not a created being, but is the God of the Universe.
You know that many persons do not agree with you.
You know that Michael is the archangel, according to the scriptures.
So, because you say that Michael is not an angel, according to what you and others believe, that does not make it scripture.

I won't repeat what I said, because going in circles does not change anything.
Neither the quick copy paste of what you believe.

The Bible is the authority.
Michael is the archangel.
I have said more than once, if that is simply chief messenger to you, and you use angel otherwise, the inconsistency is evident.

I left it there.
When do we end it?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You know that many persons do not agree with you.
You know that Michael is the archangel, according to the scriptures.
So, because you say otherwise, according to what you and others believe, that does not make it scripture.

I won't repeat what I said, because going in circles does not change anything.
Neither the quick copy paste of what you believe.

The Bible is the authority.
Michael is the archangel.
I have said more than once, if that is simply chief messenger to you, and you use angel otherwise, the inconsistency is evident.

I left it there.
When do we end it?
The Bible is my Authority as well, why I quoted Scripture, I also provided quotes not just from some random people, but from the Reformers, scholars and church leaders who are well-respected. Why would Jesus not be the chief Messenger is really the question.

I am okay not being in the majority, typically thats the wrong place to be anyway. Mat 7:13-14
 
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CoreyD

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The Bible is my Authority as well, why I quoted Scripture, I also provided quotes not just from some random people, but from the Reformers, church leaders who are well-respected. Why would Jesus not be the chief Messenger is really the question.

I am okay not being in the majority, typically thats the wrong place to be anyway. Mat 7:13-14
I believe Jesus is the chief in everything related to God - chief spokesman; chief messenger...
We can end on that note then. Agreed?
 
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CoreyD

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The Bride
the_bride.png

The angel's message on the Bride
Revelation 14:1-5
1 And I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing upon Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred forty-four thousand having His name and the name of His Father having been written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of many waters and the loud rumbling of thunder. And the sound I heard was like harpists strumming their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They have been redeemed from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And no lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

heavenlyMountZion.png

Revelation 7:2-4
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, with the seal of the living God. And he called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea:
3 “Do not harm the land or sea or trees until we have placed a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:

The 144,000
  • are on Mount Zion with Christ
  • have Christ's name and the name of His Father written on their forehead
  • are taken from the earth from mankind as firstfruits
  • are completely faithful to God and his Christ

The Saints
  • are on Mount Zion with Christ
  • have the name of God written on their forehead
  • are taken from the earth
  • rule as Priests and Kings with Christ
  • are completely faithful to God and his Christ
Daniel 7:18, 27; Revelation 1:6; Revelation 3:12, 13; Revelation 5:9, 10; Revelation 19:8; Revelation 20:4, 6; Revelation 22:3-5; Romans 8:23; Ephesians 5:27; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Hebrews 12:22

The angel's message on the Marriage
Revelation 19:6-8
6 And I heard something like the voice of a great multitude, and like the sound of many waters, and like a sound of mighty thunders, saying: "Hallelujah! For the Lord God our Almighty has reigned.
7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him the glory. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready.
8 She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.” For the fine linen she wears is the righteous acts of the saints.

The bride is being given in marriage to the bridegroom - the Lamb.

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theSaints.png

The angel says, the marriage of the Lamb has come.
Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him the glory. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.” For the fine linen she wears is the righteous acts of the saints.
When does this happen?
"Hallelujah! For the Lord God our Almighty has reigned.


Revelation 11:15-17
15 Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.

Revelation 12:10-12
10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down - he who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. And they did not love their lives so as to shy away from death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time.”

Revelation 5:6-14
8 And when he had received the scroll, The Four [zóon: Living creature, animal, beast] and 24 Elders fell down before the Lamb, while each one of them had a stringed instrument and a vessel of gold full of sweet spices, which are the prayers of The Holy Ones,
9 Singing a new hymn of praise, and they were saying, “You are worthy to take the scroll and to loosen its seals, because you were slain and you have redeemed by your blood to God from every tribe, nation and people,”
10 “And you have made them a Kingdom, Priests and Kings to our God, and they shall reign over The Earth.”
12 And they were saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the slain Lamb to receive power, [ploutos: Riches, wealth, abundance], wisdom, strength, honor, glory and blessing.”
13 And every creature which is in Heaven and in Earth, under The Earth, in the Sea and all that is in them, I also heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and dominion to him sitting upon the throne and to the Lamb for the eternity of eternities.”
14 And when The Four [zóon: Living creature, animal, beast] said, “Amen”, The Elders fell down and worshiped.

Revelation 21:1-5
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice from heaven saying, Behold the tent of God with men, and he will dwell with them and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, their God.

The marriage takes place when the kingdom of God begins ruling over mankind on the earth - illustrated as New Jerusalem descending from heaven.
The angel tells us more about the kingdom of God - the lamb, and his bride.
 

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