Michael stands up - Daniel 12:1, Revelation 12:7-9

[Bob_1000]

I don’t want to get into a long debate over when to spiritualize or not, but it was Paul who replaced ethnic Israel not me.

As I said earlier, an unconditional, eternal promise of peace made to a nation that will not be before God is essentially saying eternal peace can be had without God.

According to the bible ethnic Israel was never God's chosen people. God's chosen people have always been those who obey his voice and keep his covenant. It's an IF THEN statement.... If you do this, then you will be the chosen people. Most of Israel don't fit this criteria.

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine

Paul also says the same when he said "For they are not all Israel which are of Israel".

 

[grafted branch]

According to the bible ethnic Israel was never God's chosen people. God's chosen people have always been those who obey his voice and keep his covenant. It's an IF THEN statement.... If you do this, then you will be the chosen people. Most of Israel don't fit this criteria.

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine

Paul also says the same when he said "For they are not all Israel which are of Israel".

I think Paul was saying not all ethnic Israel is the true Israel of God. So when looking at verses that contain the word Israel, Paul is establishing a principle of replacing the idea of “Israel” always means ethnic Israel and allowing it to mean true believers.

 

[Bob_1000]

I think Paul was saying not all ethnic Israel is the true Israel of God. So when looking at verses that contain the word Israel, Paul is establishing a principle of replacing the idea of “Israel” always means ethnic Israel and allowing it to mean true believers.

Absolutely and the same applies to Jerusalem. Jerusalem could mean earthly Jerusalem or heavenly Jerusalem and major doctrinal errors come from misidentifying the two.

 

[Timtofly]

I don’t want to get into a long debate over when to spiritualize or not, but it was Paul who replaced ethnic Israel not me.

As I said earlier, an unconditional, eternal promise of peace made to a nation that will not be before God is essentially saying eternal peace can be had without God.

No, Paul did not replaced ethnic Israel. Paul pointed out blindness in part until the fulness of the Gentiles is complete. Do you think the fulness of the Gentiles is complete? If you think the fulness of the Gentiles is not complete, then the blindness on Israel has not been lifted, either. Paul never said the blindness is permanent. Paul said it was in part, until a certain point in time.

Blindness will be removed when Israel is restored as an ethnic nation. Still in the future at the Second Coming.

 

[CoreyD]

I have already answered all your questions you just haven’t acknowledged it, so I will repeat it for you.

Because all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

We are looking for conclusions that harmonize with all scriptures, that is what we are looking for.

I have never met anyone who does not believe that we can get an answer to a question, or understand an account, from one Chapter, or book - until now.
There are many things we get from one book alone.
For example, we know how Satan has ministers, from one letter. We know Adam was not deceived, from one letter. We know there was a war in heaven between Michael, and his angels, and the Devil, and his angel, from one Chapter, and a lot more things we know, just from one Chapter.

Daniel does not tell us that the scribes and Pharisees were able to prevent people from entering the kingdom of heaven, and that they did this while they sat in Moses’ seat.

I don't understand why you would be looking for that in Daniel.

No need to answer any more of my questions, you have already given enough evidence as to why you’ve been avoiding the words of Jesus.

You know you are bearing false witness, which is a sin, right?
Of course, that's between you and Jesus, but are you sure you want to go down that line? Why the attack on my character? Did I attack you, or just say something you got offended at?

Thanks for the conversation.

Honestly, you don't sound very thankful. Are you angry?

 

[CoreyD]

John was not just seeing things. John was experiencing them and writing them down as he experienced them. He was not dreaming nor simply inspired.

"Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit."

"Come and see. And I saw."

It is personal interpretation that concludes this was a series of dreams. Daniel had a series of dreams, and it was recorded that way. John never once claimed he was dreaming nor in a trance, nor simply inspired.

I did not say John was dreaming. I said John saw visions.
John did not go anywhere.
So, you don't agree John was given visions?

Revelation 1:10 could also be stated: "in spirit in the Day of the Lord". From the perspective of the Day of the Lord, the rest of the book was past, present (the Day of the Lord), and the future.

I disagree. Under inspiration - in the spirit - I John, came to be in the Lord's day, is what I am seeing.
In spirit, in the day of the Lord, suggests that the day of the Lord, is there and then, when John receives the Revelation.
Both renderings are different.

The book was not written from the perspective of the first century being the present.

In this verse we see 5 kingdoms had already fallen. In the first century, only 3 had fallen and Rome was the 4th kingdom.

I disagree, but continue.
Before you do, though, are you saying that the present kingdom John refers to - "one is", is not Rome?

Revelation 17:9-10

"And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

So at this particular present reference, the entire statue of Daniel 2 is in the past. The 6th Kingdom is about to end, and the 7th kingdom is the Millennial Kingdom, the Day of the Lord. But we also see the insertion of an 8th kingdom that interrupts the 7th kingdom for a short period of time.

You are saying that Rome is in the past, then?

"And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

The 7th kingdom is not part of this beast at all. The 7th head is the temporary 8th kingdom.

Revelation 12 is the historical relationship between Satan and the statue of Daniel 2. Revelation 13 is the historical relationship of this statue with humanity. Revelation 17 is the historical relationship of this statue with religion. The ten kings never have a kingdom, but are ten humans arising during the Trumpets and Thunders who bring their nations and armies to side with Satan in some coalition that literally wipes out all religion on earth, and attempts to reconcile humanity with Satan against Jesus Christ without religion.

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

So it would seem that the stone started out during the 4th kingdom at the Cross, and grew to finally obliterate the 5 kingdom statue, around the time of the Reformation. It thus grew into a mountain filling the whole earth, the effect of the Gospel taken to the whole earth, and every nation. The 6th Kingdom was defunct as no single nation ruled the earth.

At the Second Coming, the 6th Seal, the 6th Kingdom is brought to life by Satan. That kingdom ends at the 7th Trumpet, when Jesus is declared King of the 7th kingdom.

In the midst of the week of days of the 7th Trumpet, God will either allow Satan 42 months as the 8th kingdom, or not.

So John left the first century, because what he was a witness to was not about the first century. Even the 19th century was in the past, according the present John was witnessing.

Thanks for sharing what you believe.

 

[CoreyD]

@grafted branch I realize what sparked your anger. It was my image.
I should just have asked if you think it's fair, and left it there. I apologize.

 

[David Kent]

Or it is still unfulfilled.

You do have a problem in replacing the church with ethnic Israel.

One is a spiritual Kingdom of God.

The other is physical Jesus on a physical throne on earth.

John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

ONE FLOCK

 

[Bob_1000]

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Zech 1;20 Then said I, What come these to do? And he spake, saying, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, so that no man did lift up his head: but these are come to fray them, to cast out the horns of the Gentiles, which lifted up their horn over the land of Judah to scatter it.

All of those verses are talking about the same time. It is the time when the Gentiles utterly destroyed Israel. There will never come a time when a Gentile can't "call on the name of the Lord" and be saved.

 

[Timtofly]

John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

ONE FLOCK

There has always been a group on earth, and a group not on earth. I am not sure why that is hard to grasp.

There were sons of God always in heaven even before the Flood. They never came back. So until the next creation happens in over one thousand years from now, there will remain one group on earth and the other group in Paradise.

 

[grafted branch]

@grafted branch I realize what sparked your anger. It was my image.
I should just have asked if you think it's fair, and left it there. I apologize.

Apology accepted, although I don’t think you needed to apologize in the first place, I’m not offended.

Sometimes it’s hard to know what someone’s attitude really is on a forum like this. I’m not angry or upset, I have a thick skin, as they say. I just don’t want to keep trying to show you that verses in Matthew, that talk about the same kingdom that’s in Daniel 7, should be included in a discussion about Daniel 7.

Daniel 7 talks about the saints possessing the kingdom. If I do a search for “kingdom of God” I get 182 verses, “kingdom of heaven” I get 67 verses. That’s 249 verses total and they are spread out across many chapters. For me, they all have a potential to impact how and when the saints possessing the kingdom should be interpreted in Daniel 7.

I believe the stone that breaks the statue in Daniel 2 is Jesus Christ. Our conversation kept taking steps back to the point I felt I needed to ask you if you think Jesus is the Messiah.

If you are interested in resuming our conversation I really need to know where you stand on this question because it is fundamental to how we will ultimately interpret the Bible. If you would rather just agree that we disagree I’m good with that too, sometimes that’s the best way to go.

 

[grafted branch]

Do you think the fulness of the Gentiles is complete?

Yes, I’m in agreement with @Bob_1000, the fullness of the Gentiles happened when the times of the Gentiles was fulfilled in the first century.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, I’m in agreement with @Bob_1000, the fullness of the Gentiles happened when the times of the Gentiles was fulfilled in the first century.

So no one has been redeemed since the first century? We are in no territory covered by Scripture at all, since 100AD? We are at the mercy of human theology, and God stopped redeeming mankind, but may some day after thousands of years start working again in both Gentiles and Israel?

Israel was given about 1400 years. But you have concluded that the Gentiles were only given about 70 years and that was it?

 

[grafted branch]

So no one has been redeemed since the first century? We are in no territory covered by Scripture at all, since 100AD? We are at the mercy of human theology, and God stopped redeeming mankind, but may some day after thousands of years start working again in both Gentiles and Israel?

Israel was given about 1400 years. But you have concluded that the Gentiles were only given about 70 years and that was it?

Just because the fullness of the Gentiles has already come doesn’t mean Gentiles can’t be saved. If this was the case then you would have to have a millennium where no new born Gentiles have any hope of being saved.

I believe the fullness of the Gentiles in Romans 11:25 has to do with the covenants, look at Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. That’s the new covenant and we know the old covenant vanished in 70AD. Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The blindness in part is the veil of the old covenant, 2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

 

[David Kent]

Yes, I’m in agreement with @Bob_1000, the fullness of the Gentiles happened when the times of the Gentiles was fulfilled in the first century.

That can't be correct as Jesus said that Jews would be

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles........ until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

That was partially fulfilled when Allenby marched through the gates of Jerusalem, thus ending Turkish rule. As my avatar shows.

 

[Bob_1000]

There was a period of time that God used gentile rulers and armies to occupy, dominate and destroy Israel. That time period is called “the times of the gentiles”.

How that got twisted into meaning that there would come a time when gentiles couldn’t be saved, I have no idea. That goes against pretty much everything in the Bible.

 

[grafted branch]

That can't be correct as Jesus said that Jews would be

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles........ until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

That was partially fulfilled when Allenby marched through the gates of Jerusalem, thus ending Turkish rule. As my avatar shows.

I can see where a person might think that if they think the Daniel 2 statue is still standing. I personally think the last thing the Gentiles did during their times was to sack Jerusalem in 70AD.
I think this is tied to the old covenant vanishing and Romans 11:26-27 saying all Israel shall be saved and it is my covenant unto them. The blindness of Israel got lifted when the Son of man was revealed in Luke 17:30, this is also the same time when they were to flee according to Luke 17:31.

 

[David Kent]

The Gentiles ruled and trod down Jerusalem from the time that Jerusalem fell. They did not return till recent years. Various gentile nations ruled throughout history. The Turks only allowed 500 Jews to live in Jerusalem till the British forced them to allow more in 1848.

 

[David Kent]

I can see where a person might think that if they think the Daniel 2 statue is still standing. I personally think the last thing the Gentiles did during their times was to sack Jerusalem in 70AD.
I think this is tied to the old covenant vanishing and Romans 11:26-27 saying all Israel shall be saved and it is my covenant unto them. The blindness of Israel got lifted when the Son of man was revealed in Luke 17:30, this is also the same time when they were to flee according to Luke 17 31.

The statue is still standing. We are in the feet and toes period now. Since Rome was divided amongst 10 tribes in the 5th century and since then the nations or the Roman empire have never reunited into one, being strong at one time and week at others.

How that got twisted into meaning that there would come a time when gentiles couldn’t be saved, I have no idea. That goes against pretty much everything in the Bible.

Who said that, I didn't. Daniel 7 covers the same period, and lasts till the saints take the kingdom. revelation covers the same period as the fourth kingdom.

 

[grafted branch]

The Gentiles ruled and trod down Jerusalem from the time that Jerusalem fell. They did not return till recent years. Various gentile nations ruled throughout history. The Turks only allowed 500 Jews to live in Jerusalem till the British forced them to allow more in 1848.

The statue is still standing. We are in the feet and toes period now. Since Rome was divided amongst 10 tribes in the 5th century and since then the nations or the Roman empire have never reunited into one, being strong at one time and week at others.

The physical Jerusalem ceased before God, we are in the new Jerusalem now. The nation of Israel (and physical Jerusalem) ceasing to be before God in the Jeremiah 31:36 promise is tied to the new covenant in Jeremiah 31. We can know the Jeremiah 31:35-36 promise will come to pass when the ordinances of the sun and moon depart from before God. The sun and moon are used to tell time and this is also related to the covenants.

Let me start with the bigger picture as I see it. In the tabernacle and also in Solomon’s temple, God dwelt in the ark and that’s where God was or at least the glory, shekhinah was. During this time, time itself was marked by which Jewish king or kings were ruling. This ended when they were taken to Babylon.

Babylon is the start of the times of the Gentiles. These times are marked by the different beast kingdoms and also seen in the statue in Daniel 2. The times of the Gentiles ends or fullness happens when the Daniel 2 statue gets destroyed.

Currently, today we are in the New Testament or New Covenant, in the invisible kingdom of God where the temple is the body of believers, individually and collectively. This kingdom is everlasting and is ruled by Christ who will never die again and this everlasting kingdom has no time demarcations other than when it starts. That is why there is no need for the sun or moon in new Jerusalem which we have come to.

Ok, there was a period of time where the new covenant started and the old covenant had not yet vanished. This time period I believe was the clay mixed with iron in the Daniel 2 statue. We know from Hebrews 8:13 that the old covenant at that time was ready to vanish away, the old covenant is the partial blindness that happened to Israel while the new covenant was in force. This condition remained until the fullness of the Gentiles came in. The last act of the Gentiles in Daniel was to make the old covenant vanish through the sacking of Jerusalem.

There is no going back to the old covenant or old Jerusalem. The new covenant, new Jerusalem, and His kingdom are everlasting.