Michael stands up - Daniel 12:1, Revelation 12:7-9

[Bob_1000]

I grasp your point, it's a good point. Yet, still, what verse 21 is involving, it has to be fulfilled before what verse 22 is involving can be fulfilled. What do you propose fits what verse 21 is involving and was fulfilled before that passage you submitted is involving? Let me guess. Probably has something to do with 70 AD one way or another, right? Meaning what verse 21 in Daniel 7 is involving.

I think verse 21 was the leadership of the Jews persecuting the true believers, maybe it's talking about Herod, I don't know. I know that the horn prevailed against the saints until the Ancient of days came and gave the kingdom to the true believers. I think the Ancient of days is Jesus.

Off the top of my head I can't think of anything in prophecy that deals with 70 AD.

 

[Bob_1000]

I take back “Jesus is the Ancient of days”.

I think that verse is talking about when God literally came down from heaven and avenged the murder of his son.

2Sa 22:8 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth.


2Sa 22:9 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.


2Sa 22:10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet.


2Sa 22:11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.


2Sa 22:12 And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies.


2Sa 22:13 Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled.


2Sa 22:14 The LORD thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice.


2Sa 22:15 And he sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and discomfited them.


2Sa 22:16 And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.

 

[Douggg]

Where is the scripture that says "in the Spirit" means in that verse, that John was enthusiastically praising God in prayer and perhaps song", and where is the scripture that says the Lord's day is Sunday?

Jesus rose on the third day, which became known as Sunday. So that day is considered the Lord's day. The word "Sunday" is not found in the bible.

Regarding "in the Spirit".....

1Corinthians14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

[CoreyD]

Can you expand on this further so that I can see why you are concluding this? In the event you are correct, I at least need to know why and how.

Daniel tells us, I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. Daniel 7:11
Daniel is relating an account as he sees it happened. He sees the beast, in Daniel 7:7. He sees the thrones put in place, and the court seated Daniel 7:9, 10. He watches as the beast is killed and its body destroyed - Daniel 7:11.

 

[CoreyD]

I take back “Jesus is the Ancient of days”.

Whom do you say is the son of man? Daniel 7:13

 

[Bob_1000]

Whom do you say is the son of man? Daniel 7:13

I think it’s Jesus but I’m puzzled at why it says “one like the Son of man”. What’s your opinion?

 

[CoreyD]

Jesus rose on the third day, which became known as Sunday. So that day is considered the Lord's day. The word "Sunday" is not found in the bible.

The word "Sunday" is not found in the Bible, and the Bible doesn't say Sunday is the Lord's day. People do. Thanks.
So, you were just giving your opinion. I understand.

Regarding "in the Spirit".....

1Corinthians14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

These verses are not saying John being "in the Spirit" means in that verse, that John was enthusiastically praising God in prayer and perhaps song".
They are unrelated.

1 Peter 1:11, and 2 Peter 1:21 shows two ways persons were "in the spirit". Galatians 3:3 is another.

However, the context of Revelation, shows John is being carried along, or moved by the spirit - under inspiration of the spirit, as he is having visions. Revelation 9:17

 

[CoreyD]

I think it’s Jesus but I’m puzzled at why it says “one like the Son of man”.

Since the son of man is brought before the Ancient of Days, if the son of man is Jesus, the Ancient of Days couldn't be Jesus, but would be someone else. Who would be the Ancient of Days?

What’s your opinion?

My opinion isn't important, so I won't give an opinion, but I can give you references.
Matthew 24:30; John 3:13; Acts 7:56; Revelation 14:14

So, we have no need to guess whom the son of man is.

Why the title "son of man"?
I think you can get the answer. Why not give it a try.
The Bible uses this expression prophetically in Daniel 7:13. However, the expression was used with reference to the prophets Ezekiel and Daniel (Ezekiel 3:17; Daniel 8:17)

Jesus is the son of God, but he doesn't refer to himself that way very much. Certainly, hardly as much as he uses the reference 'son of man'.
If you had to make a guess, what would you say the reason might be, as to why scriptures refer to him this way,.

@Bob_1000 PS
Perhaps I should have given you more.
Son of man, in Hebrew is ben-ʼa·dham. Which means, basically “son of mankind”.
The Messiah was prophesied in scripture, to come to earth as a man. Daniel 7 is prophecy related to the role of the Messiah.
I hope that is of some help.

 

[Douggg]

These verses are not saying John being "in the Spirit" means in that verse, that John was enthusiastically praising God in prayer and perhaps song".
They are unrelated.

1 Peter 1:11, and 2 Peter 1:21 shows two ways persons were "in the spirit". Galatians 3:3 is another.

However, the context of Revelation, shows John is being carried along, or moved by the spirit - under inspiration of the spirit, as he is having visions. Revelation 9:17

Corey, John was giving a backdrop of where he was (isle of Patmos) and what he was doing, when suddenly he heard a voice from behind him. What he was doing was praying. That John said he was"In the Spirit", implies that he was praying.

I don't disagree with you that being moved by the Holy Spirit is a state a person could be put into. But because of the posture that John was in that he had to turn around, that to me indicates that he was in the act of prayer - which he described as "in the Spirit:.

 

[Timtofly]

@Timtofly One other problem you have with this one day of creation equals a thousand years is that in John 14:2 Jesus says I go to prepare a place for you.

If it took 6,000 years to create our current heaven and earth then we are only 2,000 years into the creation of new heaven and new earth. If Jesus stops creating the new heaven new earth and rests during the millennium then you’re going to have to wait another 4,000 years. Do you put a 4,000 year gap between the millennium and new heaven new earth?

I never said one day of creation was 6,000 years. You keep changing the subject, and we are not in the 21st chapter of Revelation.

The Day of the Lord is the symbolic reference to time on earth being a thousand years. It has been less than 7,000 years since there was a beginning to current creation.

The Word spoke into existence every thing in 6 × 24 hours. I think that is 144 hours. Sounds like a popular number. So no, God could change everything in less than a second. The Sabbath does not mean 7. It literally means rest.

 

[Timtofly]

I’m just pointing out that at some point in time Israel will cease to be a nation no matter how you look at it.

We all can state that, at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. Israel is the primary nation ruled by Jesus as King. Jesus is from the tribe of Judah. An Israelite ruling over Israel. That is the declaration of the 7th Trumpet.

But the NHNE is after the Day of the Lord. Then in the NHNE, we see the New Jerusalem. The church descends from heaven, and Paradise has been upgraded to the New Jerusalem. So we still have the tree of life in Paradise up until the NHNE.

Paradise is not just a body of believers. It is a literal physical place where humans experience life. The New Jerusalem is not just a body of believers. It is a literal physical city with literal measurements. It will replace the geographical land of Israel and occupy much more space than the current makeup of the ME.

There are billions living in Paradise over the next 1,000 years, and the same billions will live in the new version, New Jerusalem, in the NHNE.

The OT redeemed looked forward to the Cross and entering Paradise. Now, since the Cross, the NT redeemed have looked forward to the NHNE, and the New Jerusalem.

You cannot put what is yet to be realized, in the past. We are still in the NT, and the fulness of the Gentiles. Israel has not been restored yet. That happens during the Day of the Lord.

 

[grafted branch]

We all can state that, at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. Israel is the primary nation ruled by Jesus as King. Jesus is from the tribe of Judah. An Israelite ruling over Israel. That is the declaration of the 7th Trumpet.

But the NHNE is after the Day of the Lord. Then in the NHNE, we see the New Jerusalem. The church descends from heaven, and Paradise has been upgraded to the New Jerusalem. So we still have the tree of life in Paradise up until the NHNE.

Paradise is not just a body of believers. It is a literal physical place where humans experience life. The New Jerusalem is not just a body of believers. It is a literal physical city with literal measurements. It will replace the geographical land of Israel and occupy much more space than the current makeup of the ME.

There are billions living in Paradise over the next 1,000 years, and the same billions will live in the new version, New Jerusalem, in the NHNE.

The OT redeemed looked forward to the Cross and entering Paradise. Now, since the Cross, the NT redeemed have looked forward to the NHNE, and the New Jerusalem.

You cannot put what is yet to be realized, in the past. We are still in the NT, and the fulness of the Gentiles. Israel has not been restored yet. That happens during the Day of the Lord.

Alright, would you agree that no eternal, unconditional promises are made to the nation of Israel?

For example the promises made in Ezekiel 37:26-28


26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

 

[grafted branch]

Just from considering Daniel 7 alone, we have everything explained to us, even with little or no background knowledge, and it does not leave us in doubt.
What exactly are you in doubt about?

Here’s the thing Corey, I’m in agreement with most everything you’re saying, I see the four beast kingdoms just as you do Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome.

All scriptures must agree, so only looking at Daniel 7 and coming to a final conclusion just doesn’t cut it. Whatever conclusion we arrive at from Daniel 7 still must agree with the rest of the Bible.

In Matthew 23:13 the scribes and Pharisees were able to prevent people from entering the kingdom of heaven, they did this while they sat in Moses’ seat(Matthew 23:2). This could very easily line up with Daniel 7:25 where the saints are worn out and given into his hand while he thinks to change times and laws. This happens prior to when the Ancient of days sets judgement.

We also need to harmonize with the parable of the wicked tenants. Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Who had the kingdom of God taken from them? Answer, the chief priest and Pharisees (Matthew 21:45). Who was given the kingdom? Answer, a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (Matthew 21:43).

I think you’re missing something if you don’t look at all the scriptures on this.

 

[grafted branch]

That seems easy enough to pin down. It is meaning during/after when the beast is given to the burning flame which is also meaning Revelation 19:20. Which then leads to the beginning of the thousand years.

I have pointed out the following before, but might only be relevant to the KJV and not other translations as well.

If one does an exact phrase search for the following in the KJV---and judgment was given---that exact phrase shows up 2 times in the Bible, one time in the OT and one time in the NT.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I will agree with you on some of this, I do think that the Daniel 7:22 and Revelation 20:4 line up and are almost certainly talking about the same judgment being given. I also agree with the idea that the beast/little horn was overcoming the saints prior to this.

In Revelation 19:20 the beast and false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire but in Daniel 7:11 the beast is slain, destroyed, and given to the burning flame. I don’t think these are the same event.

I don’t think the burning flame can be the lake of fire. I think the most likely explanation for what the burning flame in Daniel 7:11 would be is the fiery stream in Daniel 7:9, although it could also be the fiery description of his throne or wheels as burning fire in Daniel 7:10.

 

[Timtofly]

Alright, would you agree that no eternal, unconditional promises are made to the nation of Israel?

For example the promises made in Ezekiel 37:26-28


26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

It is an eternal unconditional promise.

It will happen to the Israel alive at the Second Coming.

It will last for over 1,000 years in this creation and continue in another form in the next creation. We don't have details of the next creation outside of Revelation 21. That is the only glimpse of that reality. The OT only gets us to the end of this creation. All the NT outside of Revelation gets us to the Second Coming. There are some OT passages that cover the Day of the Lord. Isaiah 65 is one of them. Isaiah 65 has not happened yet. Ezekiel 37:26-28 has not happened yet. Some of these promises like Daniel 9:24 involve the removal of sin and the death and decay that comes from sin. Adam's dead corruptible flesh is removed and there is everlasting righteousness on the earth. This will happen in this creation.

It is the NHNE where the church and Israel are once more combined like now, except in the here and now, we are still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and the gospel is free to spread throughout the entire world by any individual living anywhere, who responds to the gospel. But it is a personal choice, not that God changes people from the inside out, by God's choice. We have to crucify the flesh anew daily. During the Day of the Lord it will be written on every heart of every human, because no one will be in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. It will be abnormal to disobey. And death and removal from life is instant at the moment of disobedience. Sin will not be allowed to enter into the world, like it did with Adam and Eve putting on dead flesh to live under the bondage of sin.

I don't think God ever wanted a perfect Israel. Just an obedient Israel in the face of difficulty. He then kept promising them He would one day make it easy, and effortless. But then God opened up the redemption to all humanity, and took away the natural branches. So it is still not easy to be obedient. But God seems to offer rewards to those who attempt to serve God.

The whole Day of the Lord is supposed to be a day of rest for the entire creation under the burden of sin. But not for the church, and not for the dead. It is for a select firstfruits from the final harvest carried out by Jesus Himself. Those who are chosen to help are the 144k, and the angels. A third of current Israel will be redeemed and changed in "a day". Not the nation there currently. Israel from every nation upon the earth that are still scattered. Along with remnants of all nations to populate the new heaven and earth, regenerated after the baptism of fire at the Second Coming. But this is still not Revelation 21. This is the last Day of this creation.

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

That word subdue was used in Genesis 1, when humanity was told to multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. That is what the Day of the Lord was for in Genesis 2, and the last Day of the Lord will be the same. The earth will be subdued and populated for a thousand years.

 

[David Kent]

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

How can Daniel 7:22 not be this.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

I believe Matthew 21:43 happened in AD70.

 

[CoreyD]

Corey, John was giving a backdrop of where he was (isle of Patmos) and what he was doing, when suddenly he heard a voice from behind him. What he was doing was praying. That John said he was"In the Spirit", implies that he was praying.

Doug, John does not tell us what he was doing, whether sleeping, eating, praying or what. That does not matter.
What John tells us, is that he came to be in the spirit, on the Lord's day - and as the context shows, John is being carried away, or moved by the spirit. It is in this state that John sees the vision, including hearing the voice behind him, and turning and seeing seven golden lampstands.
That's the scriptures.

If you want to go with your opinion, I have no quarrel with those beliefs. The scriptures are what I am concerned with.
The actions of John hearing a voice and turning, are while he is in visionary state - in the spirit.
It doesn't say that is praying. That is your belief. If you are okay with that, fine.

I want to go with the scriptures.

I don't disagree with you that being moved by the Holy Spirit is a state a person could be put into. But because of the posture that John was in that he had to turn around, that to me indicates that he was in the act of prayer - which he described as "in the Spirit:.

So you missed that John is is under the inspiration of the spirit, when he turned around?

Remember the transfiguration?
Matthew 17:4
Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

Notice what Luke tells us of Peter's reaction.
Luke 9:33
As Moses and Elijah were leaving, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters - one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)

Peter did not realize what he said. Why?
Matthew 17:9
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, “Do not tell anyone about this vision until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

It was a vision, but Peter not realizing the visionary state they were in, spoke as if in his normal state.
I usually think of a vision as being in another dimension. Just my understanding of it.

When the Devil took Jesus, to the holy city and set Him upon the pinnacle of the temple, I see that in the same sense - in a visionary state - a dimension we humans do not understand.

Daniel had such visions also. Ezekiel, as well.
Ezekiel's vividly mirrors John's.
1 And He said to me, “Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.” 2 Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me.
9 Now when I looked, there was a hand stretched out to me; and behold, a scroll of a book was in it.

John was in such a state, when he heard the voice behind him. He was in that state - in the spirit - when he turned around..
The scriptures do not describe that state as praying.

 

[CoreyD]

Here’s the thing Corey, I’m in agreement with most everything you’re saying, I see the four beast kingdoms just as you do Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome.

All scriptures must agree, so only looking at Daniel 7 and coming to a final conclusion just doesn’t cut it.

Why can't we come to a final conclusion on what Daniel explained in Chapter 7?
Please explain what Daniel does not tell us, that you are looking for. Or what doubts you have on what Daniel tells us.

Whatever conclusion we arrive at from Daniel 7 still must agree with the rest of the Bible.

Conclusions about what?

In Matthew 23:13 the scribes and Pharisees were able to prevent people from entering the kingdom of heaven, they did this while they sat in Moses’ seat(Matthew 23:2). This could very easily line up with Daniel 7:25 where the saints are worn out and given into his hand while he thinks to change times and laws. This happens prior to when the Ancient of days sets judgement.

We also need to harmonize with the parable of the wicked tenants. Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Who had the kingdom of God taken from them? Answer, the chief priest and Pharisees (Matthew 21:45). Who was given the kingdom? Answer, a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (Matthew 21:43).

I think you’re missing something if you don’t look at all the scriptures on this.

What am I missing? What do you want me to see that Daniel missed, and why should I see that, when I read Daniel 7?
Are you saying that you are reading Daniel with a preconceived idea?

 

[Bob_1000]

Since the son of man is brought before the Ancient of Days, if the son of man is Jesus, the Ancient of Days couldn't be Jesus, but would be someone else. Who would be the Ancient of Days?


My opinion isn't important, so I won't give an opinion, but I can give you references.
Matthew 24:30; John 3:13; Acts 7:56; Revelation 14:14

So, we have no need to guess whom the son of man is.

Why the title "son of man"?
I think you can get the answer. Why not give it a try.
The Bible uses this expression prophetically in Daniel 7:13. However, the expression was used with reference to the prophets Ezekiel and Daniel (Ezekiel 3:17; Daniel 8:17)

Jesus is the son of God, but he doesn't refer to himself that way very much. Certainly, hardly as much as he uses the reference 'son of man'.
If you had to make a guess, what would you say the reason might be, as to why scriptures refer to him this way,.

I wasn’t puzzled at the son of man part, what puzzles me is why it says “like” the son of man.

I believe the ancient of days is God.

 

[Bob_1000]

I believe Matthew 21:43 happened in AD70.

I don’t know much about 70 AD. All we know about 70AD comes from outside the Bible and I’m not sure I believe the accounts.

70 AD seems like a smokescreen used to cover what really happened when they crucified Jesus.

The events between the crucifixtion and the resurrection are mind blowing. God came down and wreaked havoc on the earth. The sun went dark at mid day, God shot out devouring fire out of his mouth, there was a massive earthquake, dead people came out of the ground and walked the streets of Jerusalem.

Funny thing is, I’ve never heard a preacher preach on those event or even mention that those events took place.