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Michael stands up - Daniel 12:1, Revelation 12:7-9

Timtofly

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1 Thessalonians 4:17 says so shall we ever be with the Lord. Is the resurrection of the dead and those that remain in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 only the 144,000 and no one else?
Who is the Lord? Seems every time the word is used alone it is talking about a single God, not one of the individual persons of the God head.

That is why many confuse what Jesus or the Lord said to the thief. "This day you will be with me in Paradise". We can safely say that was the Lord, not that Paradise is the tomb they lay the body of Jesus in.

Paul does not say we shall ever be with the Lamb. Nor ever be with Jesus Christ. Paul clearly used the word Lord.

Now you can also quote Jesus. John 14:2-3

"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

If there were already places prepared, when did Jesus already prepare those places?

Does Jesus have to wait for a certain day to receive them into those mansions?

Did not Jesus leave and prepare the way by dying on the Cross? Jesus has already received all those redeemed into those mansions. That has been a done deal since the Cross.

At the Second Coming those in Paradise will be gathered first, and then those alive on the earth will meet them in the air. But all return to Paradise to wait until God is finished working on the earth.

That is the 5th Seal. They all were given white robes and told to wait. That is the rapture event and the entire church glorified. That is the event of 1 Thessalonians 4 in your post.

The 144k are with Jesus the Prince or King to come on the earth where His throne and temple are set up in Jerusalem. They were sealed on the earth after the church was glorified in the 5th Seal. The 6th Seal is Jesus coming to the Mount of Olives per Zechariah 14. Before the 7th Seal is opened the 144k are sealed by the angels. The redeemed firstfruits like the 12 disciples called and sealed at the beginning of Jesus' earthly ministry as the Messiah on earth.
 
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grafted branch

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That is not what it states.

"If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever."

The nation of Israel is about the Millennial Kingdom. And Israel will last a thousand years before current creation ceases to exist.

Your point is everything could disappear Tomorrow. Then Israel would be no more. Since everything won't disappear Tomorrow, then there will still be a future Israel.

Those verses say that until God is done with current creation, God will not be done with Israel.
No my point is that the ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars is given in Genesis 1:14. They are for signs, seasons, days, and years.

In Hebrews 12:22 we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem. Revelation 21:23 describes that Jerusalem as having no need of the sun, neither of the moon to shine in it.

The ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars is not currently before God, therefore according to Jeremiah 31 Israel has ceased from being a nation before God forever.
 
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CoreyD

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I agree on the word stand, it’s not necessarily actually standing on one’s feet but it means to take a stand or position. The accuser of the brethren is cast out of heaven in Revelation 12 so that would qualify as the same kind of standing in Daniel 12:1 in my opinion.
Michael did stand in his fight against Satan and the demon, at Revelation 12, for sure. That was a definite time for standing.

Yes, I do think Jesus siting at the right hand of God could be Michael in the seated position. I’m not basing my entire position on this, only that the same kind of terms are used for both Michael and Jesus, seated and standing.
The evidence for Michael being the son of God, is too strong to deny, from what I have read.

As for the four horsemen I see them as taking place when Jesus was on earth in the first century, the fifth seal being just after the cross and the sixth seal taking place in 70AD.
Like any person seeking to complete a 5,000 piece beautiful puzzle, to get everything right, we have to
  1. accept the pieces given to us,
  2. fit them in their proper place

That's the only way we will see the picture, exactly as it is presented.
We don't want our puzzle to look like this.

disassembled-puzzle-last-wrong-piece-impossible-to-fill-disassembled-puzzle-last-wrong-piece-impossible-to-fill-197180904.jpg


This piece - Revelation 1:1 - places the four horsemen after Jesus is no longer on the earth, and fits the time Jesus foretold at Matthew 24:3-8
If we don't fit that piece correctly, we have botched the entire puzzle, and our picture will look a mess. In fact, we won't complete the puzzle, since we will have too many badly fitted pieces.
 
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Douggg

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If we don't fit that piece correctly, we have botched the entire puzzle, and our picture will look a mess. In fact, we won't complete the puzzle, since we will have too many badly fitted pieces.
Corey, when the piece fit together correctly - the picture is a timeline.

Gog/Magog - followed by the 7 years - ended by Jesus's return.
 
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Aaron112

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I think those verses say just the opposite.
Probably good.
I think Israel today is a nation before God. i.e. His Choice, in front of Him, while still disobedient in most or many ways. Terrible things will happen soon, such that men will curse and blame God,
or
fall on their knees and cry out to Him , repenting and crying to Him to save us!
 
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lanceleo

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Israel will never be a nation before God ever again according to Jeremiah 31:35-36.
36 “If gthose ordinances depart

From before Me, says the Lord,

Then the seed of Israel shall also cease

From being a nation before Me forever.”

Yes unless those ordinances change so will Israel cease to be a nation before God. The day Israel cease to exist the sun would no longer be the source of daylight and the moon and stars the night light. I don't think we will ever see that day.
 
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David Kent

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Here’s a problem or possible problem with the order you’re proposing, in Daniel 12:1 it says at the time shall Michael stand. This implies that Michael remains seated or at least inactive until the time Daniel 12:1 happens. If Revelation 12:7 happens prior to when Daniel 12:1 occurs then Michael fought the dragon in the seated/inactive position or Revelation 12:7 happened prior to the writing of Daniel.
Stand in Daniel seems to be when someone takes power or takes the stage, so to speak.there are several kings in Daniel 11 thar stand or stand up. That means that they take power.
 
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Aaron112

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So, the prime points are...
AMP
“Now at that [end] time Michael, the great [angelic] prince who stands guard over the children of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time;

but at that time

your people, everyone who is found written in the Book [of Life], will be rescued.
 
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grafted branch

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I think those verses say just the opposite.
36 “If gthose ordinances depart

From before Me, says the Lord,

Then the seed of Israel shall also cease

From being a nation before Me forever.”

Yes unless those ordinances change so will Israel cease to be a nation before God. The day Israel cease to exist the sun would no longer be the source of daylight and the moon and stars the night light. I don't think we will ever see that day.
Well, Jeremiah 31:35-36 is a conditional promise that will be met once the ordinances depart from before God. I think we all would agree on that.

Isaiah 60:20 thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself …

The ordinances of the sun and moon, as given in Genesis 1:14, are not being obeyed in Isaiah 60:20, would you agree with this?
 
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lanceleo

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Well, Jeremiah 31:35-36 is a conditional promise that will be met once the ordinances depart from before God. I think we all would agree on that.

Isaiah 60:20 thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself …

The ordinances of the sun and moon, as given in Genesis 1:14, are not being obeyed in Isaiah 60:20, would you agree with this?
The city of Zion in Isa 60 is not the physical city that was rebuilt after the exile but the kingdom of God that comes down to earth and God would be their light.
 
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CoreyD

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Corey, when the piece fit together correctly - the picture is a timeline.

Gog/Magog - followed by the 7 years - ended by Jesus's return.
Douggg Scripture is the pieces. Not our beliefs, or what we think. Would you agree?
Jesus is offering you this piece.
Rev1.png

It is Jesus who gives the Revelation to John, and it is John who says, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants - things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,"
Remember, I had nothing to do with this.

This is entirely God's doing. He - through Jesus - through an angel of Jesus, tells John these things.
We only need to accept them, and fit them where we are told they belong.
So, I am merely fitting it, where Jesus, through his angel says this piece belongs.
I know that to do otherwise, is no benefit to me. True, I might hold my pride, and my ego might be intact, but these are of no value in the sight of God, so I don't see a need for these.

The angel related these things to John, and John obediently wrote them.
The enlarged font is to emphasize the main points.
Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3​
Revelation 1:​
9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”​

When John was exiled on the Island of Patmos, he received a Revelation, and he was instructed to write it, to the congregations.
John came to be in the spirit, on the Lord's day. He was to write the things that would shortly take place, and which time was near.

John was also instructed to write the things he sees.
He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. 19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this Revelation 1:17-19​

All the things John writes down to the congregations.
After Jesus' counsel is given to the congregations, what did John see?
  • Then as I looked, I saw a door standing open in heaven, and the same voice I had heard before spoke to me like a trumpet blast. The voice said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after this.” Revelation 4:1
  • Then I saw a scroll in the right hand of the one who was sitting on the throne. There was writing on the inside and the outside of the scroll, and it was sealed with seven seals. Revelation 5:1
  • As I watched, the Lamb broke the first of the seven seals on the scroll. Then I heard one of the four living beings say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” Revelation 6:1
  • Then I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds so they did not blow on the earth or the sea, or even on any tree. Revelation 7:1
  • Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven, surrounded by a cloud, with a rainbow over his head. His face shone like the sun, and his feet were like pillars of fire. Revelation 10:1
  • Then I saw a beast rising up out of the sea. It had seven heads and ten horns, with ten crowns on its horns. And written on each head were names that blasphemed God. Revelation 13:1
  • Then I saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him were 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. Revelation 14:1
  • Then I saw in heaven another marvelous event of great significance. Seven angels were holding the seven last plagues, which would bring God’s wrath to completion. Revelation 15:1
  • After all this I saw another angel come down from heaven with great authority, and the earth grew bright with his splendor. Revelation 18:1
  • Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. Revelation 20:1
  • Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4
I missed one, sorry.
  • Then I witnessed in heaven an event of great significance. I saw a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon beneath her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head. revelation 12:1
That's important, because this event is followed by Satan being evicted from heaven.
John sees all of this, and writes it down. Thus, we are able to read all about it, today, in this thrilling book - Revelation.

John, does not only see Satan being cast out of heaven, but he sees the binding of Satan, before the thousand year rule of Christ begins.
  • Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. Revelation 20:1
John sees quite a lot, in that Chapter.

John also sees a very thrilling promise.
  • Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone. Revelation 21:1
John is told to write this, too. Revelation 21:5, because it is trustworthy.

The angel concludes with these words :
6 ...These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.
7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

John chimes in :
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”​


This piece of the puzzle fits the Lord's day. “By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day.” Revelation 1:10
I don't know when you think the Lord's day is, but if you think it is when Jesus walked the earth, then everything John saw has already happened.
In other words, the entire book of Revelation, is messed up, and becomes meaningless, since it's no longer prophetic. However, we know this is not the case. It's the belief of men who try to understand things in light of their ideas, that's messed up.

We have Jesus' approval, when we accept his direction. It's our choice, as we know.
 
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DavidPT

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What you say here is of interest.
If you are linking the war in heaven to the time of the ascension, I'm really curious as to why you make that connection.

The following posts from another thread explains some of my reasoning behind why I tend to think the war in heaven took place 2000 years ago rather than in the future like some interpreters seem to think.



 
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DavidPT

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Well, Jeremiah 31:35-36 is a conditional promise that will be met once the ordinances depart from before God. I think we all would agree on that.

Isaiah 60:20 thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself …

The ordinances of the sun and moon, as given in Genesis 1:14, are not being obeyed in Isaiah 60:20, would you agree with this?

Though, we have been over this before, there are no ordinances recorded in those verses that are going to depart at some point. That is totally preposterous. If they depart it means Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Him for ever. If God does not desire for Israel to be a nation before Him forever to begin with, this sure is a silly way for Him to make that point. That He has to resort to something silly like this rather than just coming out and plainly saying so, that He does not desire Israel to be a nation before Him forever.
 
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grafted branch

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The city of Zion in Isa 60 is not the physical city that was rebuilt after the exile but the kingdom of God that comes down to earth and God would be their light.
I agree.

No matter where in time we place Isaiah 60:20, it means that at some point Israel will no longer be a nation before God forever.

This then means no unconditional eternal promises can be made to the nation of Israel, those promises were made to those who are Jews inwardly (Romans 2:28-29).
 
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grafted branch

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Though, we have been over this before, there are no ordinances recorded in those verses that are going to depart at some point. That is totally preposterous. If they depart it means Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Him for ever. If God does not desire for Israel to be a nation before Him forever to begin with, this sure is a silly way for Him to make that point. That He has to resort to something silly like this rather than just coming out and plainly saying so, that He does not desire Israel to be a nation before Him forever.
I don’t think it’s silly, I think it’s meant to cause people to think about what is written.
Instead of making a conditional promise couldn’t God have just said Israel will never cease being a nation before me? God didn’t say plainly one way or the other, so jumping to the conclusion that the ordinances will always and forever be before God is incorrect according to Isaiah 60:20.
 
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CoreyD

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The following posts from another thread explains some of my reasoning behind why I tend to think the war in heaven took place 2000 years ago rather than in the future like some interpreters seem to think.



I'm trying to get the connection, but not following, since these are in pieces, and don't seem to follow a line of thought.
So, perhaps you can walk me through it.
Jesus' ascension to heaven, you figure, is the same time the war in heaven broke out?
What scriptures led you to that conclusion?
 
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grafted branch

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I'm trying to get the connection, but not following, since these are in pieces, and don't seem to follow a line of thought.
So, perhaps you can walk me through it.
Jesus' ascension to heaven, you figure, is the same time the war in heaven broke out?
What scriptures led you to that conclusion?
I don’t agree with David on many things but I do also think it’s a possibility that Daniel 12:1 and the Revelation 12 war happens just after the cross.

In Daniel 7:10 the books were opened, and just as in Revelation 20:12, people are judged out of the things written in the books. In Daniel 7:13 one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven to the Ancient of days. This scene could be Christ’s ascension which becomes the war in heaven, that is a court room battle. Satan accuses the brethren by the open books, Jesus presents his blood to pay for those sins which results in Satan and his angels having no place found for them anymore in heaven .

In Daniel 12:2 there is a resurrection of many who are judged, in Matthew 27:52-53 there is a resurrection of many saints. Some problems here are that the word saints is almost always believers not unbelievers. In Deuteronomy 33:1-3 Moses blessed the children of Israel collectively and called them saints. Those resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53 were saints (not Gentiles).
 
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Douggg

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Douggg Scripture is the pieces. Not our beliefs, or what we think. Would you agree?
Jesus is offering you this piece.
Our beliefs should be based on scripture. When the pieces of the puzzle are put together properly, the resulting picture is a correct timeline.

Work on making a timeline. It will take many, because there are many puzzles in scripture dealing with the end times. First begin on a overall timeline showing the beginning of the 7 years and the end of the 7 years.

This piece of the puzzle fits the Lord's day. “By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day.” Revelation 1:10
I don't know when you think the Lord's day is, but if you think it is when Jesus walked the earth, then everything John saw has already happened.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

John was on the isle of Patmos that day.

"In the Spirit" means in that verse, that John was enthusiastically praising God in prayer and perhaps song, on a Sunday, the Lord's day... when suddenly he hears a voice sounding like a trumpet from behind. He turns and sees Jesus, behind him, as reality changes.

John's reality suddenly becomes that John was before the Lord, and Jesus delivers His messages to the seven church's.

After hearing Jesus's messages to the seven church's, John then in Chapter 4, saw before him a door in heaven open (we might call the door a portal)... then, the first voice he hears was a voice like a trumpet, saying "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hearafter."

The voice was that of Jesus. And immediately, John was in the spirit, a transformation like that of the rapture, and taken to heaven, to the throne room of God.


1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
 
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