Michael stands up - Daniel 12:1, Revelation 12:7-9

[David Kent]

I don’t have any problems with that, I personally think Old Heaven/Old Earth = Old Covenant and New Heaven/New Earth = New Covenant. So when we see the sun, moon, and stars not giving light or falling from heaven I think it’s referring to the final demise of a covenant and in Matthew 24 I think it’s the final demise of the old covenant where it vanishes.

If the sun, moon, and stars does refer to those who rule then I would think it’s referring to those ruling the old covenant. In Matthew 23:2 it mentions the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. I would think this seat or ruling position completely vanished in 70AD.

I agree with that as far as the Olivet. but not in Revelation. In Genesis it refers to Joseph's family, but who was mother then? rachel died long before.

 

[grafted branch]

I agree with sat as far as the Olivet. but not in Revelation. In Genesis it refers to Joseph's family, but who was mother then? rachel died long before.

I don’t have an answer as to why Joseph’s father interrupted the dream with the moon meaning Rachel when she was already dead. Certainly this dream has more meaning than just the time in Egypt where Joseph’s father and brothers did make obeisance.

Perhaps Galatians 4:26 is in view, where it says Jerusalem which is above is free, the mother of us all. The fact that Rachel was dead and yet the dream shows her making obeisance could be referring to the time period where the earthly Jerusalem is no longer able to make obeisance yet the heavenly Jerusalem does.

I don’t know, just thinking maybe something like this could be a possibility. I’ll have to think about this some more.

 

[CoreyD]

In Daniel 12;1, Michael the angel will stand up, and what ensues is the worst time in Israel's history. And in Daniel12:7, it says that time will last a time/times/half time.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

So, the prime points are...

1. that Michael will stand up
2. the worst time of trouble in history will then take place
3, it will last a time/times/half time

Next, let;s look at Revelation 12
1. Revelation 12:7-9, Michael (will stand up) and together with his angels will cast Satan and his angels down to earth
2. Revelation 12:12 Satan has great wrath, knowing his time is short
3. Revelation 12:14 a time/times/half time

We can conclude then the worst time of trouble in history, will take place in the second half of the 7 years, in the great tribulation - that will start slightly before then when the abomination statue image will be made and set-up on the temple mount, 1335 days before Jesus returns.

When Satan gets cast down to earth, he will incarnate the statue image, making it appear to come alive and speak. And the false prophet will require that everyone worship the statue image. And anyone refusing to worship the image will be killed.

and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book sounds like Matthew 24:21, 22 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

So, it would go this way.

1. Michael wages war with Satan and his demons, and rids the heaven of them, casting them to earth Revelation 12:7-12
2. Satan is waging war against the remaining sons of the woman Revelation 12:17
3. the worst time of trouble in history takes place Matthew 24:21
4. Satan makes an all out attack on the sanctuary of God's people Ezekiel 38:14-16
5. This infuriates the great king Ezekiel 38:18-23 and sparks the great day of the Lord Zephaniah 1:14-18 - Armageddon Revelation 16:14-16

• It is at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people, and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

[CoreyD]

That's not true. In the book of Job he is described as still being able to come before God in the third heaven. He and his angels were kicked out of the third heaven after Jesus's resurrection. He could no longer accuse the brethren before God in the third heaven because their sins were forgiven. He can't accuse people of sins that have been forgiven by the blood of Christ. But, he was in the third heaven accusing the brethren up until that point.

Interesting. I never heard anyone express that they thought God was keeping meetings with the angels in the third heaven. Very interesting. It would be interesting to hear why you think that.

 

[CoreyD]

I agree that Satan and his angels were cast out of (the third) heaven a long, long time ago - when Satan first sinned.

Satan's realm after that has been the second heaven, i.e. the cosmos, and the first heaven, i.e. the atmosphere above the earth, and the earth.

I often wonder why people think that. Is there a scripture that actually says Satan was cast out of heaven when he first sinned, or do people just reach that conclusion because they think John is writing history?
Did John himself not begin the Revelation this way : The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants - things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John.
Was he not writing to the congregations existing in the first century?
How then could John be saying Michael's casting Satan out was back in Genesis?

 

[CoreyD]

"The key to interpreting Matthew 24:21 and Daniel 12:1 correctly, is simple. Both accounts have to be involving the same same era of time and that a resurrection event has to be at the end of this time of trouble."

This is what I said at the end of that other post. Your solution to this, according to what you said previously in another thread, that the war in heaven(Revelation 12) explains this. Yet, it obviously doesn't if Matthew 24:21 and Daniel 12:1 are involving the same events, thus the same era of time, but that you have Matthew 24:21 involving 70 AD.

Very insightful.

If you have the war in heaven involving the time of the cross, or at least the time of the ascension in my case, where I myself can at least agree that it likely fits the time of the ascension, but then you have Matthew 24:21 involving 70 AD, but that in reality Matthew 24:21 and Daniel 12:1 are involving the same events, the same era of time, how is anyone supposed to make sense out of what you are proposing as a solution for this?

What you say here is of interest.
If you are linking the war in heaven to the time of the ascension, I'm really curious as to why you make that connection.

 

[David Kent]

I don’t have an answer as to why Joseph’s father interrupted the dream with the moon meaning Rachel when she was already dead. Certainly this dream has more meaning than just the time in Egypt where Joseph’s father and brothers did make obeisance.

Perhaps Galatians 4:26 is in view, where it says Jerusalem which is above is free, the mother of us all. The fact that Rachel was dead and yet the dream shows her making obeisance could be referring to the time period where the earthly Jerusalem is no longer able to make obeisance yet the heavenly Jerusalem does.

I don’t know, just thinking maybe something like this could be a possibility. I’ll have to think about this some more.

Presumably Leah would be his step mother.

 

[CoreyD]

I do agree with you on this, I also think it’s very possible that Michael is referring to Christ.

Do you mind if I ask why you entertain the possibility of Michael being Christ?

 

[grafted branch]

Presumably Leah would be his step mother.

I do see that, the argument against that idea would be that Leah never bowed before Joseph, she died in Hebron (Genesis 49:31). There is also the possibility that Rachel’s handmaid may have bowed. I also have seen where an argument can be made for Rachel being alive when the dream occurred but died before the bowing in Egypt.

I think Joseph’s dream is related to the Revelation 12 woman who is clothed with the sun, has the moon under her feet and has a crown of twelve stars.

 

[grafted branch]

Do you mind if I ask why you entertain the possibility of Michael being Christ?

Sure, in Daniel 10:13 Michael is one of the chief princes, Daniel 10:24 Michael is your prince, and Daniel 12:1 he is the great prince.

I think the people of the prince that shall come in Daniel 9:26 could be referring to the Revelation 19:14 armies which were in heaven.

I do think it’s definitely debatable but I think there is enough evidence that it remains a good possibility that Michael is Christ or preincarnate Christ.

 

[Timtofly]

I’m going by what Hebrews 8:13 says, the covenant was obsolete and growing old, ready to vanish when Hebrews was written. If you want to call it a one sided covenant then fine, whatever, the fact is it hadn’t vanished yet.

There is no point in that chapter about what was happening when the book was actually written. If you are going by Hebrews 8, that fading away has not happened. Jesus has not yet come to restore Israel.

I don't agree with your interpretation of that chapter. We still have to teach each other. You are claiming the Millennium Kingdom is the here and now.

 

[grafted branch]

Jesus has not yet come to restore Israel.

Israel will never be a nation before God ever again according to Jeremiah 31:35-36.

 

[grafted branch]

So, it would go this way.

1. Michael wages war with Satan and his demons, and rids the heaven of them, casting them to earth Revelation 12:7-12
2. Satan is waging war against the remaining sons of the woman Revelation 12:17
3. the worst time of trouble in history takes place Matthew 24:21
4. Satan makes an all out attack on the sanctuary of God's people Ezekiel 38:14-16
5. This infuriates the great king Ezekiel 38:18-23 and sparks the great day of the Lord Zephaniah 1:14-18 - Armageddon Revelation 16:14-16

• It is at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people, and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Here’s a problem or possible problem with the order you’re proposing, in Daniel 12:1 it says at the time shall Michael stand. This implies that Michael remains seated or at least inactive until the time Daniel 12:1 happens. If Revelation 12:7 happens prior to when Daniel 12:1 occurs then Michael fought the dragon in the seated/inactive position or Revelation 12:7 happened prior to the writing of Daniel.

 

[CoreyD]

Sure, in Daniel 10:13 Michael is one of the chief princes, Daniel 10:24 Michael is your prince, and Daniel 12:1 he is the great prince.

I think the people of the prince that shall come in Daniel 9:26 could be referring to the Revelation 19:14 armies which were in heaven.

I do think it’s definitely debatable but I think there is enough evidence that it remains a good possibility that Michael is Christ or preincarnate Christ.

Thanks.
Yeah, it looks like I might be able to knock it down.
I'll be back later to take a knock at it.

 

[CoreyD]

Here’s a problem or possible problem with the order you’re proposing, in Daniel 12:1 it says at the time shall Michael stand. This implies that Michael remains seated or at least inactive until the time Daniel 12:1 happens. If Revelation 12:7 happens prior to when Daniel 12:1 occurs then Michael fought the dragon in the seated/inactive position or Revelation 12:7 happened prior to the writing of Daniel.

That seeming problem isn't a problem when you consider the use of the word "stand" - In this case, Greek amad (עָמַד), which can also be rendered take one's stand against.
Here, standing up refers to rising to take specific action.
See, for example, Psalm 3:7; Psalm 12:5.

You will notice this in Daniel 12:1. The same word is used, saying that Michael already stands, or is standing. So, Michael is going to stand up in a new sense - to take action. His seating days have long passed apparently.
So while he has been standing for God's people, Michael stands up to take action against God's enemies.

Interesting that you should say "Michael remains seated or at least inactive until the time Daniel 12:1 happens."
Why is Michael seated at all? I'm reminded of Psalm 110:1. Are the two related?
If so, Michael wasn't seated since the four horsemen started riding. Revelation 6:1-8

 

[grafted branch]

That seeming problem isn't a problem when you consider the use of the word "stand" - In this case, Greek amad (עָמַד), which can also be rendered take one's stand against.
Here, standing up refers to rising to take specific action.
See, for example, Psalm 3:7; Psalm 12:5.

You will notice this in Daniel 12:1. The same word is used, saying that Michael already stands, or is standing. So, Michael is going to stand up in a new sense - to take action. His seating days have long passed apparently.
So while he has been standing for God's people, Michael stands up to take action against God's enemies.

I agree on the word stand, it’s not necessarily actually standing on one’s feet but it means to take a stand or position. The accuser of the brethren is cast out of heaven in Revelation 12 so that would qualify as the same kind of standing in Daniel 12:1 in my opinion.

Interesting that you should say "Michael remains seated or at least inactive until the time Daniel 12:1 happens."
Why is Michael seated at all? I'm reminded of Psalm 110:1. Are the two related?
If so, Michael wasn't seated since the four horsemen started riding. Revelation 6:1-8

Yes, I do think Jesus siting at the right hand of God could be Michael in the seated position. I’m not basing my entire position on this, only that the same kind of terms are used for both Michael and Jesus, seated and standing. As for the four horsemen I see them as taking place when Jesus was on earth in the first century, the fifth seal being just after the cross and the sixth seal taking place in 70AD.

 

[DavidPT]

NM

 

[Timtofly]

1 Thessalonians 4 says the dead rise first then we which are alive shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

Is it your opinion then that once everyone meets up in the clouds they all come back to earth for the final harvest?

No. Only the 144K, Jesus, and the angels are on the earth for the final harvest. The OT already had their time of harvest, during the OT. They did not stay on the earth nor did all return for the NT harvest.

The church already has had their time of harvest. It is currently ongoing. They nor the OT redeemed come back for a second go.

The final harvest is all about who is alive on the earth at the Second Coming. This harvest is the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom.

God does not just instantly destroy 6 to 8 billion souls without explanation. Nor will the church, those alive and remain, have an opportunity to make up for not bringing in the harvest they should have. We are to serve and harvest souls now in the present. So, no, the church does not get a second chance to make up for failing the lost around them.

Matthew 13:36-41 states Jesus Himself is sowing the gospel and the angels gather the harvest.

"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;"

I am not saying that many are not serving God and being obedient. Paul said there would be a great falling away. People will get burned out, that is why no one really knows who will have to endure to the end. Although all should endure until the day they leave this earth. There is really not any excuse not to endure.

The Millennium is not for the church, neither OT nor NT. The church comes down in the New Jerusalem. There really is a Paradise where the church is waiting until God is finished with this current creation. They may already be sitting in judgment. We have not been told the full revelation of God's plan. Only glimpses in Scripture.

 

[grafted branch]

No. Only the 144K, Jesus, and the angels are on the earth for the final harvest. The OT already had their time of harvest, during the OT. They did not stay on the earth nor did all return for the NT harvest.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 says so shall we ever be with the Lord. Is the resurrection of the dead and those that remain in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 only the 144,000 and no one else?

 

[Timtofly]

Israel will never be a nation before God ever again according to Jeremiah 31:35-36.

That is not what it states.

"If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever."

The nation of Israel is about the Millennial Kingdom. And Israel will last a thousand years before current creation ceases to exist.

Your point is everything could disappear Tomorrow. Then Israel would be no more. Since everything won't disappear Tomorrow, then there will still be a future Israel.

Those verses say that until God is done with current creation, God will not be done with Israel.