Michael stands up - Daniel 12:1, Revelation 12:7-9

[grafted branch]

We undeniably already know from Daniel 12:1, assuming there are 6000 years of earth history preceding this time of trouble, that it will be worse than any time of trouble that ever occurred during this past 6000 years.

1 Peter 3:20 says eight souls were saved during the Noah flood event. Since Daniel 12:1 has to be greater tribulation than that, that would mean only seven or less people will be physically alive after the great tribulation, correct?

 

[DavidPT]

1 Peter 3:20 says eight souls were saved during the Noah flood event. Since Daniel 12:1 has to be greater tribulation than that, that would mean only seven or less people will be physically alive after the great tribulation, correct?

Let's not confuse that with a time of trouble involving nations. That was involving judgment which doesn't necessarily involve tribulation every single time, since there was no tribulation involving Noah's flood. There was no time of trouble leading up to the flood. Life was going on like usual, then the flood hits them. IOW, the flood didn't come upon them during a time of trouble on the earth. This is different when comparing to Daniel 12:1. There is a time of trouble followed by the wrath of God if we factor in passages recorded in the NT, such as Matthew 24, passages in Revelation 6 and Revelation 11, for instance. Mainly meaning the 5th and 6th seal, where the 5th seal is meaning this time of trouble and that the 6th seal is meaning the wrath of God that follows this time of trouble.

 

[grafted branch]

Let's not confuse that with a time of trouble involving nations. That was involving judgment which doesn't necessarily involve tribulation every single time, since there was no tribulation involving Noah's flood. There was no time of trouble leading up to the flood. Life was going on like usual, then the flood hits them. IOW, the flood didn't come upon them during a time of trouble on the earth. This is different when comparing to Daniel 12:1. There is a time of trouble followed by the wrath of God if we factor in passages recorded in the NT, such as Matthew 24, passages in Revelation 6 and Revelation 11, for instance. Mainly meaning the 5th and 6th seal, where the 5th seal is meaning this time of trouble and that the 6th seal is meaning the wrath of God that follows this time of trouble.

Matthew 24:38-39 describes the time prior to the coming of the Son of man as the days of Noah. If there wasn’t tribulation during the days of Noah then is the coming of the Son of man in Matthew 24:39 before the great tribulation?

 

[DavidPT]

1 Peter 3:20 says eight souls were saved during the Noah flood event. Since Daniel 12:1 has to be greater tribulation than that, that would mean only seven or less people will be physically alive after the great tribulation, correct?

"The key to interpreting Matthew 24:21 and Daniel 12:1 correctly, is simple. Both accounts have to be involving the same same era of time and that a resurrection event has to be at the end of this time of trouble."

This is what I said at the end of that other post. Your solution to this, according to what you said previously in another thread, that the war in heaven(Revelation 12) explains this. Yet, it obviously doesn't if Matthew 24:21 and Daniel 12:1 are involving the same events, thus the same era of time, but that you have Matthew 24:21 involving 70 AD.

If you have the war in heaven involving the time of the cross, or at least the time of the ascension in my case, where I myself can at least agree that it likely fits the time of the ascension, but then you have Matthew 24:21 involving 70 AD, but that in reality Matthew 24:21 and Daniel 12:1 are involving the same events, the same era of time, how is anyone supposed to make sense out of what you are proposing as a solution for this?

 

[grafted branch]

but that in reality Matthew 24:21 and Daniel 12:1 are involving the same events, the same era of time, how is anyone supposed to make sense out of what you are proposing as a solution for this?

Daniel 12:1 is the time of trouble in heaven and Matthew 24:21 is the time of trouble on earth.

If you think Daniel 12:1 is the same event as Matthew 24:21 then what is the Michael standing up event? Where else is it described that Michael stands up on earth? Is he one of the two witnesses?

 

[DavidPT]

Matthew 24:38-39 describes the time prior to the coming of the Son of man as the days of Noah. If there wasn’t tribulation during the days of Noah then is the coming of the Son of man in Matthew 24:39 before the great tribulation?

According to Matthew 24, great tribulation is already in the past when Matthew 24:38-39 is meaning. Which means there is no time of trouble still taking place when Matthew 24:38-39 takes place. In Daniel 12 there is a resurrection event during the time of trouble, which might be explained per the following in Revelation 11 which would be involving the 42 months recorded in Revelation 13.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them---this referring to Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 24:21. Keeping in mind, though many interpreters disagree, 2 literal witnesses are not meant by the 2 witnesses.


Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

This maybe referring to the resurrection event recorded in Daniel 12:2. Which then leads to the 7th trumpet, the wrath of God, which also involves the time of the dead, and giving rewards to those that did good in life, thus end up obtaining eternal life. Note, while that is taking place, God sets out to detstroy those that have been destroying the earth, thus His wrath. Also note how that chapter ends---and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail(Revelation 11:19) .

Obviously, the great white throne judgment can't be in view at this point, yet verse 18 involves the time of the dead. IMO, that is meaning the sheep and goats judgment. Except I don't take the sheep and goats judgment to be meaning the great white throne judgment. But thats me, I can't speak for others.

 

[Timtofly]

If the temple practices were stopped why did Paul take a vow that involved a sacrifice when James and all the elders told him to? See Acts 21:17-26.

The same reason you pay taxes to the government you live under. That was the only economy the Jews ever knew. God did not change their government. God left the building, literally.

Government changes because the people change. Not because God proclaims one has to live under a certain government, so deal with it.

You base 70AD on the rules set up in Deuteronomy, correct? The Covenant God made with Israel at mount Sinai, did establish that government relationship with God. But you also have to figure in, that they cast off that government for a kingdom with a king. The people changed and wanted a new government like the other kids on the block.

Yet the economy remained the same, and God still held up His yearly visit, as long as the Covenant was in good standing. God did not dismantle their economy. Had they not revolted against Rome, they could have kept that economy, as long as the people did not change and decide on something different. The people decided to revolt in a drastic fashion like when the US decided living under British authority was too much. It worked out great for the US, not so much for those in the first century under Rome.

Even during the 500 years between the Babylonian captivity and the Cross, they had their good days and bad days. What went on at the temple was centered around an economy. You may see that part of that economy was spiritual. However it was their way of life and their physical economy that defined their whole existence. Some of that economy even filtered into the church, but defined through the process given in the book of Hebrews. Obviously they still kept up the physical part, even knowing that the Cross changed the spiritual dynamic. But the Jewish revolt was as much as a violent civil conflict as much as it was a conflict against Rome. Obviously not every one wanted to revolt against Rome, especially those who made a living as a go between Rome and the Jews.

Paul pointed out he was an equal opportunist, for lack of a better term. Not sure why that is difficult to understand. 1 Corinthians 9:19-23


"For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you."

Paul made full use of his relationship with God, and even his Roman citizenship. That does not mean that God was still part of the OT economy after the Cross.

 

[grafted branch]

The same reason you pay taxes to the government you live under. That was the only economy the Jews ever knew. God did not change their government. God left the building, literally.

Government changes because the people change. Not because God proclaims one has to live under a certain government, so deal with it.

You base 70AD on the rules set up in Deuteronomy, correct? The Covenant God made with Israel at mount Sinai, did establish that government relationship with God. But you also have to figure in, that they cast off that government for a kingdom with a king. The people changed and wanted a new government like the other kids on the block.

Yet the economy remained the same, and God still held up His yearly visit, as long as the Covenant was in good standing. God did not dismantle their economy. Had they not revolted against Rome, they could have kept that economy, as long as the people did not change and decide on something different. The people decided to revolt in a drastic fashion like when the US decided living under British authority was too much. It worked out great for the US, not so much for those in the first century under Rome.

Even during the 500 years between the Babylonian captivity and the Cross, they had their good days and bad days. What went on at the temple was centered around an economy. You may see that part of that economy was spiritual. However it was their way of life and their physical economy that defined their whole existence. Some of that economy even filtered into the church, but defined through the process given in the book of Hebrews. Obviously they still kept up the physical part, even knowing that the Cross changed the spiritual dynamic. But the Jewish revolt was as much as a violent civil conflict as much as it was a conflict against Rome. Obviously not every one wanted to revolt against Rome, especially those who made a living as a go between Rome and the Jews.

Paul pointed out he was an equal opportunist, for lack of a better term. Not sure why that is difficult to understand. 1 Corinthians 9:19-23


"For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you."

Paul made full use of his relationship with God, and even his Roman citizenship. That does not mean that God was still part of the OT economy after the Cross.

I think I agree with most of what you said. The old covenant became obsolete at the cross and the new covenant was in force. The old covenant was ready to vanish according to Hebrews 8:13. I’m not sure if you agree or not but the old covenant vanished in 70AD.

When reading through the New Testament I think it’s important to keep this in mind that the old covenant was still being observed by some Jews who by all accounts appeared to be saved.

 

[DavidPT]

When reading through the New Testament I think it’s important to keep this in mind that the old covenant was still being observed by some Jews who by all accounts appeared to be saved.

One thing to maybe factor in as to some of the reasons behind that, might be the following, for example. In particular, verse 20, since it might be relevant to your point.

1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

 

[Timtofly]

1 Peter 3:20 says eight souls were saved during the Noah flood event. Since Daniel 12:1 has to be greater tribulation than that, that would mean only seven or less people will be physically alive after the great tribulation, correct?

Yes. All will be dead, by the time the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. But not all will be destroyed. Some will be redeemed throughout the entire process. Even those beheaded, are given the first resurrection, after the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. But yes, all will physically die. No one will come out the other side like Noah, and those 7 others, still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

And I guess it is subjective if drowning in the Flood is worse than enduring being engulfed in fire and still alive. I still think people are missing the point that Jesus will baptize in fire. John the Baptist declared that point.

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

Pretty sure the baptism of the Holy Spirit has been realized, but John the Baptist placed people under the water in baptism. The fire will be literal at the Second Coming just like the water of the Jordan River was literal. Those with the Holy Ghost are the redeemed. But all will be baptized with fire who are on the earth at the Second Coming per 2 Peter 3, when all the works on earth will be burned up. Many reject a rapture happens prior to that event. Most all deny the final harvest is after Jesus comes to earth with His angels, yet those are the very words of Jesus.

People spiritualize away all literal aspects of the Second Coming. Is the earth all burned up spiritually or physically? It does not even say the earth is gone. It states the works on earth are all gone. That would mean a literal fire, not that spiritual works are all spiritually gone. I don't think John just stood at the Jordan, and just spiritually declared they had all been spiritually placed into spiritual water.

"And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:"

Jesus was in the water literally. Jesus will baptize with literal fire. So is drowning worse than enduring literal fire?

 

[grafted branch]

According to Matthew 24, great tribulation is already in the past when Matthew 24:38-39 is meaning. Which means there is no time of trouble still taking place when Matthew 24:38-39 takes place.

Matthew 24:29-30 says immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun is darkened and the moon doesn’t give its light and the stars fall from heaven, then appears the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

How can the great tribulation time of trouble be greater than the universe collapsing? And are people getting married and going on as if everything is ok while the universe collapses?

shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them---this referring to Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 24:21. Keeping in mind, though many interpreters disagree, 2 literal witnesses are not meant by the 2 witnesses.

The one problem I see with Michael being one of the two witnesses is that they are killed, which means angels can be killed and then resurrected. You would need to come up with other examples of this in the scriptures to be convincing.

 

[DavidPT]

Daniel 12:1 is the time of trouble in heaven and Matthew 24:21 is the time of trouble on earth.

If you think Daniel 12:1 is the same event as Matthew 24:21 then what is the Michael standing up event? Where else is it described that Michael stands up on earth? Is he one of the two witnesses?

There is always the possibility that Michael is simply meaning Christ. But not the way JWs take that to mean. I'm not saying Michael is meaning Christ nor am I saying he isn't. I simply don't know one way or the other. I just don't disregard the possibility is all.

 

[grafted branch]

Yes. All will be dead, by the time the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. But not all will be destroyed. Some will be redeemed throughout the entire process.

So who are those that remain and are alive and will be caught up?

 

[grafted branch]

There is always the possibility that Michael is simply meaning Christ. But not the way JWs take that to mean. I'm not saying Michael is meaning Christ nor am I saying he isn't. I simply don't know one way or the other. I just don't disregard the possibility is all.

I do agree with you on this, I also think it’s very possible that Michael is referring to Christ.

 

[David Kent]

How can the great tribulation time of trouble be greater than the universe collapsing? And are people getting married and going on as if everything is ok while the universe collapses?

Sun moon and Stars in prophecy always refers to ruling people. Sun and moon the main rulers and stars less important.

 

[Timtofly]

I think I agree with most of what you said. The old covenant became obsolete at the cross and the new covenant was in force. The old covenant was ready to vanish according to Hebrews 8:13. I’m not sure if you agree or not but the old covenant vanished in 70AD.

When reading through the New Testament I think it’s important to keep this in mind that the old covenant was still being observed by some Jews who by all accounts appeared to be saved.

The economy kept going, not the Covenant. How can you have a one sided Covenant? It was already fading away about the time Jesus was born.

 

[grafted branch]

Sun moon and Stars in prophecy always refers to ruling people. Sun and moon the main rulers and stars less important.

I don’t have any problems with that, I personally think Old Heaven/Old Earth = Old Covenant and New Heaven/New Earth = New Covenant. So when we see the sun, moon, and stars not giving light or falling from heaven I think it’s referring to the final demise of a covenant and in Matthew 24 I think it’s the final demise of the old covenant where it vanishes.

If the sun, moon, and stars does refer to those who rule then I would think it’s referring to those ruling the old covenant. In Matthew 23:2 it mentions the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. I would think this seat or ruling position completely vanished in 70AD.

 

[Timtofly]

So who are those that remain and are alive and will be caught up?

That happens as Jesus is coming to the earth. The Second Coming for the final harvest is the 6th Seal. Jesus and the angels are on earth for the final harvest.

No one can figure that out for some reason, and they change the book of Revelation around to fit their eschatology.

The Second Coming is not the end of the final harvest. The Second Coming is the start of Jacob's trouble. The Second Coming will take all by surprise like a thief in the night.

 

[grafted branch]

The economy kept going, not the Covenant. How can you have a one sided Covenant? It was already fading away about the time Jesus was born.

I’m going by what Hebrews 8:13 says, the covenant was obsolete and growing old, ready to vanish when Hebrews was written. If you want to call it a one sided covenant then fine, whatever, the fact is it hadn’t vanished yet.

 

[grafted branch]

That happens as Jesus is coming to the earth. The Second Coming for the final harvest is the 6th Seal. Jesus and the angels are on earth for the final harvest.

1 Thessalonians 4 says the dead rise first then we which are alive shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

Is it your opinion then that once everyone meets up in the clouds they all come back to earth for the final harvest?