There is no Rapture

[Douggg]

My end times scenario is a clear sequence of events, supported by many scriptures. Not you, or anyone has found errors in it.

That's not true and I don't care to rehash all of them.

The point at which you are willing to admit error apparently will be when the Gog/Magog event takes place - and it is against current Israel over there and not your scenario replacement rebuilt nation, which you attach the label of Beulah.

 

[Trivalee]

Yes: the 'harpazo' that Paul prophesies in 1 Thess 4:17, happens when Jesus Returns, after the Great Trib.
But that is the gathering, as per Matthew 24:31, of His faithful people, those who remain. They will go to Jerusalem, where He will be.

I don't promote theories. Opinions like this are worthless.

That the scriptures I quote seem to you to be unrelated to the subject, is because of your preconceived beliefs.
To me, they are relevant, they apply to us in these end times.

Believers in the 'rapture to heaven', have the bad habit of throwing most of the end time prophesies to the Jews. You say; they don't apply to we Christians. That is a serious mistake and it leaves you clueless about what God really intends for His faithful people.

I believe that the army accompanying the Lord on his return as seen in Rev 19:14 is made up of redeemed (resurrected/raptured) saints and the angels. I am of the opinion that the Lord welcoming the risen/raptured church in the air according to 1 Thess 4:17 will be a private affair. The wicked that are left behind on earth will not witness the meeting, which in turn, contradicts Rev 1:7 that "all eyes shall see him" return.

During the welcome experience in the air, the Lord will not descend to the earth, he will welcome the church in the air and take them back to heaven to fulfil Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Remember that the Lord said that in the resurrection, we shall be like the angels (Matt 22:30), those who ignore this truth are the ones who can't see the church as part of Christ's retinue in Rev 19.

The angels have no need to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white because they are already perfect. And it is these saints (in white clean clean linen) that make up the army returning with the Lord; vide: Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

I have always expressed concern that you often attribute someone else's assertion to others. I certainly have not argued that the end-time prophecies are exclusively for the Jews. It must be your discussion with someone else. But that hasn't stopped you from throwing it at me: Believers in the 'rapture to heaven', have the bad habit of throwing most of the end time prophesies to the Jews. You say; they don't apply to we Christians. That is a serious mistake and it leaves you clueless about what God really intends for His faithful people.

It is well...

 

[christiansoccerplayer]

If any Mods are monitoring this thread and see this post, it's probably time to temporarily close the thread for a review.

 

[Diamond72]

One fact from Scripture completely refutes the idea of a pre-rapture.

Everyone is raptured when they die. The body return to the earth and believers go to Heaven.

 

[Bob_1000]

Everyone is raptured when they die. The body return to the earth and believers go to Heaven.

Absolutely right.

 

[Diamond72]

we shall be like the angels (Matt 22:30)

Some angels look like us and some don't. Jesus is talking about the body we have in Heaven will be different from the body we have here on the earth. We do not have children there, but there will be plenty of children in Heaven for us to teach and raise in the admonition of the Lord

 

[Diamond72]

Well if you ask 5 different people a question on cf you get 5 different answers lol

Everyone has their own perspective. Even Science tells us that people are very subjective. Why worry about it. People take it far to seriously that people have different opinions than they have. We are all individuals. Leave them alone and let them have their own opinions.

 

[Timtofly]

Here is one reason I agree with you. Most Christians who believe in a rapture want to believe that God will take His people off the earth before Tribulation starts. That sounds good if you believe in a Tribulation to come. Here's the problem ... So God will remove Christians before the trouble starts. Can you imagine how stupid that sounds to Christians in parts of the world where persecution of Christianity is already a reality?

Before tribulation would have been in 30AD. Great Tribulation has been off and on for 1993 years.

The Great Tribulation happens after the Second Coming. It is called Jacob's trouble. Not Israel, not the church. Those of Jacob who are goats, will be in Great Tribulation with no escape, but death.

Has nothing to do with persecution, but meeting God face to face with no excuses why one rejected God their whole life. Tribulation is trouble, not persecution for one's beliefs. Persecution has been great trouble over the last 1993 years. Many being martyrs for the faith.

 

[BobRyan]

Everyone has their own perspective. Even Science tells us that people are very subjective. Why worry about it. People take it far to seriously that people have different opinions than they have. We are all individuals. Leave them alone and let them have their own opinions.

The argument that if we pay no attention to the warnings God gives - it will all be well... did not work in Noah's day, did not work for those who heard John the baptizer.... and according to Christ in Matt 24 - does not work in the last day.

In 2 Thess 2 - God says the humans get "strong delusions" sent because they "did not receive a love of the truth so as to be saved" -- paying no attention to the truth God gives about the end - is not a strategy for "success".

In Matt 24 Jesus said "I have told you in advance" so that you should not be deceived.

Here is an example of a "detail" that God gives in Matt 24 that is a problem to "ignore"

23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘He is over here,’ do not believe him. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and will provide great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

This means that if someone comes to you and says Jesus has returned to Earth and he is now... over there... Well then that is a false coming of Christ.

A lot of people are already setup to be tripped up on that one - as it is right now and this is not the second coming... yet people are ready to "get it wrong" as we speak.

 

[Diamond72]

The argument that if we pay no attention to the warnings God gives - it will all be well... did not work in Noah's day, did not work for those who heard John the baptizer.... and according to Christ in Matt 24 - does not work in the last day.

God gives them over to a reprobate mind. We can try to get the infidel to see that they need to have the mind of Christ and come to a saving knowledge of the truth. We will not know for sure how successful we were until we get to heaven. We just try to take as many people with us as we can.

 

[Diamond72]

in Great Tribulation with no escape, but death.

The only escape is if they are martyred. Revelation 9:6 "During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them."

 

[JulieB67]

This means that if someone comes to you and says Jesus has returned to Earth and he is now... over there... Well then that is a false coming of Christ.

A lot of people are already setup to be tripped up on that one - as it is right now and this is not the second coming... yet people are ready to "get it wrong" as we speak.

Exactly! Both Christ and Paul give out very strict warnings on not being deceived on this very subject.

If anyone is waiting on Christ to come first they set themselves up I believe to the danger of falling for the first one. We know apostasy will happen, etc, departing from the real truth. And as you said, we have to accept the love of the truth.

This is why I believe Christ will turn people away. And he states he comes at an hour most do not expect. And we see in 1st Thessalonians people will be stating peace and safety and then bam, the true Christ returns. What a shock for those believing their savior (aniti/instead of Christ) had already arrived and bought into the fake peace he will bring.

 

[BobRyan]

God gives them over to a reprobate mind. We can try to get the infidel to see that they need to have the mind of Christ and come to a saving knowledge of the truth. We will not know for sure how successful we were until we get to heaven. We just try to take as many people with us as we can.

Well the post I was responding to was of the form "why pay so much attention to what God warns as about regarding the sequence of events in the last days?".

So it was not a post saying "why should I accept the Gospel?".

 

[sparow]

Everyone is raptured when they die. The body return to the earth and believers go to Heaven.

Emun said there is no rapture. I presume he refers the false doctrine of The Rapture, and I insist that the false doctrine exists.


In Latin “rapture” means to lift up, such as picking up a stone, and it's use is broad. In English, the usage of rapture is restricted to emotion. Where the doctrine of the rapture comes from I am not sure, it could come from a Latin Bible, it could come from Ribera's Futurism Thesis. Jesus teaches, no one returns to heaven unless they first come from heaven, and these are not ordinary people; John the Baptiste did not return to heaven.

 

[Diamond72]

Emun said there is no rapture. I presume he refers the false doctrine of The Rapture, and I insist that the false doctrine exists.

I assume we are talking about 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and there is lots and lots of teaching on this. Better to let the Holy Spirit of God be your teacher and guide and not worry about what others think about it. This is clearly a passage about how we will be "caught up together". As we are to be of one mind and one accord now.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

If they think there is no rapture, then maybe for them there is no rapture.

 

[sparow]

I assume we are talking about 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and there is lots and lots of teaching on this. Better to let the Holy Spirit of God be your teacher and guide and not worry about what others think about it. This is clearly a passage about how we will be "caught up together". As we are to be of one mind and one accord now.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

If they think there is no rapture, then maybe for them there is no rapture.

<<Everyone is raptured when they die. The body return to the earth and believers go to Heaven.>>

You are talking about people going to heaven, even before Christ comes, and you call that rapture; I believe Paul said the dead would be raised first; I believe he meant "when Christ returns not when they die"; and Christ has already descended from heaven before anyone is raised up into the air.

 

[Diamond72]

I believe Paul said the dead would be raised first;

There are 12 different scriptures that use the word rapture. But there are variations in the spelling, so they do not all mean exactly the same thing. For example 2 corinthians 12:2 "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows".

I am pretty sure he was not dead at the time. Although some people do believe he was dead. He had been stoned and they considered him to be dead.

Acts 14 "19b They stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, presuming he was dead. 20 But after the disciples had gathered around him, he got up and went back into the city. And the next day he left with Barnabas for Derbe.

 

[oikonomia]

Everyone is raptured when they die. The body return to the earth and believers go to Heaven.

If this is true then how come the New Testament says that David has not ascended into the heavens? (Acts 2:34)
David was an Old Testament believer. He did die but it says he did not ascend into the heavens.

"For David did not ascend into the heavens, but himself says, The Lord says to my Lord, Sit at My right hand," (Acts 2:34)

God has a purpose to save not only the immaterial portion of man, but the entire "spirit and soul and body" be preserved complete. (1 Thess. 5:23)

A saved soul without a redeemed body is not a complete salvation.
And such a one is conesided unclothed who still needs to be clothed with the glorified body to appear in God's
full presence in the normal way.

God is not pleased that disembodied spirits whom He created to have bodies "go to heaven" to be with Him forever.
This also makes God more a God of death than a God of life.
The traditional thought that you must DIE in order to go to be with God makes God too much a God of death rather than a God of resurrection and life eternal.

God more places than heaven and the surface of the earth.
And those whose full salvation is still wanting, He can preserve in peace and in a good place UNTIL they are full clothed so
as not to appear before Him "naked" or "unclothed."

 

[Diamond72]

David was an Old Testament believer. He did die but it says he did not ascend into the heavens.

That just means David was talking about Jesus, not himself.

 

[Diamond72]

You are talking about people going to heaven,

To be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8