There is no Rapture

[dfw69]

Again, that's not scriptural. Paul says we are not in darkness that the day should overtake us as a thief. Meaning if one knows what to watch for, it won't overtake us as it does others that are asleep, not on watch. No where in Paul's teachings does it state we will not be there. We are not appointed to wrath because God can take care of his own. His wrath will not effect us but it will others.

How do you believe god is gonna save
you from wrath?

The problem is you are separating the events and subject of the end of 1st Thes chapter 4 and into chapter 5. It's the same subject and same event. Paul calls the event of chapter 4 the day of the Lord. The subject hasn't changed. He was continuing his train of thought. You have to realize this is a letter that Paul is writing, there were no chapters. Man inserted the chapters later.

I’m not separating Paul is teaching 2 appointments not me

The church are the saints and yes they will be here during the tribulation. Christ states his return is "immediately after the tribulation".

What will that tribulation look like?
Who is causing tribulation?
Describe this for me what is happening at this time?

Where does a pretrib rapture fit into his teachings? It doesn't. The disciples ask for signs of "his coming" and he lays it all out.

They ask Jesus 3 specific questions and he answers all 3 about the restoration.

do you not know why they didn’t ask about the rapture ?

Again, not what the scripture states. It states nothing about "every day life". It's much more serious than that.

Why?

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

What do you think is the evil day what is that about?

Notice it states "the evil day" not every day. That evil day is when Satan and co will be here defacto on earth.

Are you referring to the 3rd woe?

If one is not prepared for that you are in danger of being deceived.

How do you prepare? Prepare for what?
What is the deception you are referring to?

That's why one needs the full armour on if case it should happen in their generation and that's why the day would not overtake them as a thief. Because they know the signs that Christ, and later Paul as well as Christ's Revelation lay out.

There is a lot of signs throughout scripture any particular signs you are look for?

They know Christ does not return until the 7th trump and not a moment sooner.

So u believe the first 7 seals and 6 trumpets are the signs we should look for then Jesus appears at the 7th trumpet and then pours out 7 vails while on earth?

They will wait and stand and endure to the end until the true Christ returns and not fall away to the fake.

Who will be the fake Christ?
Why will anyone want to follow him if he’s fake?

We have to heed the warnings by Christ and Paul. Paul was not teaching to Jewish people at the time of his warnings that the falling away and son of perdtion would arrive before "our gathering back to him". You can't make this two different comings. Our means our, if it should happen in their lifetime or anyone elses. It's our gathering back to him period. One gathering.

Where is the gathering in rev? The 6 trumpet awake the dead and the graves are opened? The 7th trumpet transformed the living immortal?

The mystery is that "all will be changed" Not that anyone is going anywhere.

I though it might be we will not all die but we all will be changed into spiritual bodies

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

It states that Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many. It doesn't state just for the Jews, does it? Of course not. So why would the second part only refer to Jews? It states very specifically unto "them that look for Him" shall he appear the second time.

So all that look for him to return to earth will be saved?

As I've stated many times in numerous threads, I was taught to believe in a pretrib rapture almost half my life. Never even dreaming that what I was taught was not biblical. But it's not. One can try and separate the comings into two different events, take things out of context and so on. But if one reads chapter by chapter, verse by verse and book by book, it's very easy to see Christ will return only one more time. Some will have wrath opposed on them at that time and others will be glorified.

I would not totally deny the rapture as if it’s not possible i would put it on a shelf just in case your teachers are wrong in their interpretation

If it happens ,are you willing to go ? are you willing to let go of this world for heaven?

 

[dfw69]

I gave you a 'like', but must correct the order of fulfilment:
1/ The rebirth of national Jewish Israel.
2/ The removal of all the apostate, atheistic and Jesus rejecting peoples from all of the holy Land. The Sixth Seal world changer.
3/ The gathering and migration of all the Christian peoples to live in all of the holy Land.
4/ The Gog/Magog attack.
5/ the AoD in the new Temple.
6/ The GT and the faithful Christians kept in a place of safety.
7/ Jesus Returns and commences His Millennium reign.
8/ The GWT Judgment, then Eternity. Only then does anyone receive immortality.

There is plenty of scriptural proof for these things to happen and in that order.
There is no need for anybody to be removed, in fact the amazing Blessings that God promises, are much better to experience than going to harp practice. God needs His righteous people here, we have work to do.

This is not correct keras

The timeline goes like this according to Matthew 24
False brethren who say “Jesus is the messiah” yet they are deceivers seeking a false messianic age Matthew 24:4-5

Then wars , nation rise against nation (racial hate) kingdom against kingdom famine earthquake which are the beginning of sorrows but the end is not yet Matthew 24:6-7

This is for the purpose to create a false Messianic age for they are the beginning of Israel birth pangs Matthew 24:8

Israel has then created a false messianic age
A false king sits on the throne of david
Sanhedrin restored
Priesthood restored
Temple built

During the false messianic age
Persecution of saints takes place Matthew 24:9-14
Saints handed over to be persecuted
Saints hated by all nations
At this time many turn away from the faith in Jesus to betray each other and hate each other
False prophets appear at this time to deceive many against the testimony of Jesus that the saints who are being cut off testify by the Holy Spirit

Then after the false Messianic age tribulations the end comes Matthew 24:14

It comes with the rise of antichrist over the 10 tribes of Israel then after 31/2 years he and the false prophet set up the AOD Matthew 24:15-19

Then the great tribulation begins for Jews
Matthew 24:20-22

Matthew 24:23-26 is a real eye opener and warning to heed

Matthew 24:27 reveals his visible coming and mentions Armageddon slain eaten by vultures

Matthew 24:29 goes backwards to the point of after the tribulation of mystery Babylon or the false messianic age mentions the signs that Rev reveals with the opening of the 6th seal

Then the sign of the son of man seen in heaven returning Matthew 24:30


Keras what does this next verse mean?
What trumpet is this? Is this the last trump? Who are these angels? What are the 4 winds? And what did Jesus mean from one end of the heavens? Is their more than one heaven?
Where does this event fit in your timeline?

Matthew 24:31
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

[keras]

Where does this event fit in your timeline?

Matthew 24:31
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

At the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. Also described in 1 Thess 4:16

There is no reason to assume that trumpet blast is the last trump. At the end of the Millennium, a trumpet call will raise all the dead to stand before God on His Great White Throne of Judgment. THAT is when 1 Corinthians 15:5-56 will happen.

I stand by the list I gave. I can support each of the 8 points with ample scripture.

 

[dfw69]

At the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. Also described in 1 Thess 4:16

So let me see if I understand you

Matt 24:31 is the same event as 1 thes 4:16 which is the great white throne judgement after the millennium?

It says Jesus will send his angels to gather his elect (including the dead?)
From the 4 winds (what’s that about?)
From one end of the heavens to the other (what does that mean?) with only one trumpet blasting?

the text say “he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call”
Can you explain this?

Question I have for you is….
Is the trumpet call from the angels to gather the elect?
Or is the loud trumpet call to gather the angels to gather the elect?

In other words … who is being assembled by the loud trumpet call? The angels or the saints?

Paul mentions no angels in 1 thes 4:16 keras so I’m confused as to why you think that ?

The text to me say Jesus is sending out the angels with the loud call to gather up the exiles of Israel to gather them to Jerusalem I believe that’s the correct way to interpret that text

There is no reason to assume that trumpet blast is the last trump.

I didn’t say it was … but if it’s not the last trump then is it the first trumpet that wakes up the dead and call them out if their graves ?

If it’s not neither then what trumpet call is this?

At the end of the Millennium, a trumpet call will raise all the dead to stand before God on His Great White Throne of Judgment. THAT is when 1 Corinthians 15:5-56 will happen.

So you put these 3 scriptures together to make your gwt rapture a reality?

Matt 24:31 says angels gather elect with no mention of a resurrection

1 thes 4:16 says jesus “himself” descends from
heaven in the air with a trumpet call and the dead rise first then we who are alive are caught up to meet in the clouds with no mention of the gwt judgement nor angels keras

and also
1 cor 15:5-56 mentions a resurrection and transformation ….I’ll highlight my fav part
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
But again no mention of gwt judgement

And having said all that you don’t find something wrong with your interpretations?

 

[Trivalee]

I was adding that point to his post, so you could see the whole picture.

Keras claims no one is resurrected, not even the OT, until the GWT in Revelation 20.

He claims no one is currently in heaven.

All the Jews from all time are not coming back to flee into the wilderness. It is only those currently alive at this very moment of the post. We are in the time of the generation who will see all things:

The rebirth of national Israel.
The Second Coming.
The GT.
The AoD.

In that order. People will physically die. That is why the angels are on earth, and it is called the final harvest. Matthew 13.

Forgive me, Brother Tim. I've given up trying to help Keras understand what the scripture says about the eschaton. For over 8 years I tried unsuccessfully to have him open his eyes to the truth but couldn't. I discuss with him on general Bible topics these days, but I don't bother with end-time topics. His doctrines are outlandish and I'm yet to see anyone convince him that he's wrong.

Have you heard him assert that every believer will emigrate to the holy land while the Jews will be killed? He's a sweet guy but I don't know where his doctrines come from because they are certainly not in the Holy Bible.

 

[Trivalee]

Again, that's not scriptural. Paul says we are not in darkness that the day should overtake us as a thief. Meaning if one knows what to watch for, it won't overtake us as it does others that are asleep, not on watch. No where in Paul's teachings does it state we will not be there. We are not appointed to wrath because God can take care of his own. His wrath will not effect us but it will others.

The problem is you are separating the events and subject of the end of 1st Thes chapter 4 and into chapter 5. It's the same subject and same event. Paul calls the event of chapter 4 the day of the Lord. The subject hasn't changed. He was continuing his train of thought. You have to realize this is a letter that Paul is writing, there were no chapters. Man inserted the chapters later.

The church are the saints and yes they will be here during the tribulation. Christ states his return is "immediately after the tribulation". Where does a pretrib rapture fit into his teachings? It doesn't. The disciples ask for signs of "his coming" and he lays it all out.

Again, not what the scripture states. It states nothing about "every day life". It's much more serious than that.

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Notice it states "the evil day" not every day. That evil day is when Satan and co will be here defacto on earth. If one is not prepared for that you are in danger of being deceived. That's why one needs the full armour on if case it should happen in their generation and that's why the day would not overtake them as a thief. Because they know the signs that Christ, and later Paul as well as Christ's Revelation lay out. They know Christ does not return until the 7th trump and not a moment sooner. They will wait and stand and endure to the end until the true Christ returns and not fall away to the fake. We have to heed the warnings by Christ and Paul. Paul was not teaching to Jewish people at the time of his warnings that the falling away and son of perdtion would arrive before "our gathering back to him". You can't make this two different comings. Our means our, if it should happen in their lifetime or anyone elses. It's our gathering back to him period. One gathering.

The mystery is that "all will be changed" Not that anyone is going anywhere.

It does not state that.

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

It states that Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many. It doesn't state just for the Jews, does it? Of course not. So why would the second part only refer to Jews? It states very specifically unto "them that look for Him" shall he appear the second time.

As I've stated many times in numerous threads, I was taught to believe in a pretrib rapture almost half my life. Never even dreaming that what I was taught was not biblical. But it's not. One can try and separate the comings into two different events, take things out of context and so on. But if one reads chapter by chapter, verse by verse and book by book, it's very easy to see Christ will return only one more time. Some will have wrath opposed on them at that time and others will be glorified.

I totally agree. I have enjoyed reading your arguments and of course, share the same view that the saints will be on earth during the GT and rapture at the end of it. You covered it all, so it'll be superfluous to add more. I mean, scriptures pointing to the timeline of the rapture are all over the Bible. The problem is many people do not study the Bible with an open mind - they read with pre-conceived opinions and then try to force the scriptures to agree with their views - which is impossible.

 

[JulieB67]

I mean, scriptures pointing to the timeline of the rapture are all over the Bible. The problem is many people do not study the Bible with an open mind - they read with pre-conceived opinions and then try to force the scriptures to agree with their views - which is impossible.

Thanks! I can get a little wordy at times lol but I try and use scripture and less of my own thoughts if possible but we have to apply some critical thinking I think as well.
But I totally agree about the pre-conceived opinions. Those are usually hard to let go for many people but I let mine go very easily once I saw it could not be backed up in the Bible. It was a shocker for me at that time but it opened up my eyes how easily one can get led astray if we don't try and line up the doctrines that we are "taught" in the bible and see if they are true or not.

But someone on a forum years ago posted that it was not biblical. And so that's when I first went and read the bible in it's entirety for the first time in my life. Which is shame that I had only read it sporadically up until that point. But I only wanted the truth and would accept that no matter what. And now I'm in the Word every day still trying to learn let it grow for me.

And while some things you put on the shelf when you're first learning, the timing of the the Lord's coming was always very easy to see and read for me. And yes, I went into it with an open mind. And as soon as I read Christ teachings in the gospels and most definitely Paul's teachings in both Thessalonians, I knew. I will definitely take Christ and Paul's word over man's. And yes, there's no twisting or forcing of the scriptures if we let them speak for themselves.

 

[keras]

Matt 24:31 is the same event as 1 thes 4:16 which is the great white throne judgement after the millennium?

Those 2 prophesies are about the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign, the GWT Judgment comes 1000 years later.

It says Jesus will send his angels to gather his elect (including the dead?)

They are; those who remain, who survived the Great Trib, The ONLY dead who will be resurrected when Jesus Returns, will be the GT martyrs.
As Revelation 20:4 makes clear.

In other words … who is being assembled by the loud trumpet call? The angels or the saints?

Neither, that trumpet blast by the Archangel, 1 Thess 4:16, heralds the glorious return of King Jesus.

1 cor 15:5-56 mentions a resurrection and transformation ….I’ll highlight my fav part
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
But again no mention of gwt judgement

And having said all that you don’t find something wrong with your interpretations?

I have proved that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, will happen after the GWT Judgment. Only then will Death be no more. Revelation 21:4
Using 1 Cor 15:49 is a proof of transformation, WITHOUT proof of when it will happen, is disingenuous and confusion.

The Biblical facts that I post, conflict with your beliefs. That is where the 'something wrong' is.

 

[keras]

share the same view that the saints will be on earth during the GT and rapture at the end of it.

So do I.
But when Jesus Returns, He will gather [rapture] His faithful people to Him; to where He is - in Jerusalem.

His doctrines are outlandish and I'm yet to see anyone convince him that he's wrong.

This makes me happy!
I write what the Prophets said, THEY are not wrong. It is people like preterists, AMill's and those with the fanciful notion that the Lord will fly them to heaven, before any trials and testing, that I oppose.
Its been over 10 years, that I have opposed those wrong beliefs and basically we are still at the same impasse. Only when the end time events commence will we all know the truths of God's Plans for our future.

There is ONLY one way that things will really take place; that will be the way God wants and has informed us thru His Prophets. Amos 3:4

Just counted: I have made 53 posts on this thread! Have I convinced anybody? No, Have made you think? Maybe.
At least I have presented the truth as it is Written and given viable, scriptural explanations.

 

[dfw69]

Those 2 prophesies are about the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign, the GWT Judgment comes 1000 years later.

ok but 1 thes 4:16-17 mentions a trumpet call to awake the dead and then those alive will be caught up to meet the lord in the air at his coming which teaches a rapture at his coming (according to your teachings)

They are; those who remain, who survived the Great Trib, The ONLY dead who will be resurrected when Jesus Returns, will be the GT martyrs.
As Revelation 20:4 makes clear.

So there is a resurrection before the great white throne judgement?

Neither, that trumpet blast by the Archangel, 1 Thess 4:16, heralds the glorious return of King Jesus.

So if this is the return then your teaching at his return the rapture takes place

I have proved that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, will happen after the GWT Judgment.

What?

 

[dfw69]

So do I.
But when Jesus Returns, He will gather [rapture] His faithful people to Him; to where He is - in Jerusalem.

So there is a rapture just not to heaven but to Jerusalem ?

This requires a resurrection before millennium… how are they resurrected? Mortal ?

But 1 cor 15:51-58 refers to the great white throne ?

This is your views correct?

 

[keras]

So there is a resurrection before the great white throne judgement?

Only of the martyrs killed during the Great Tribulation, during the final 3 1/2 years of this age.
They are brought back to life, NOT made immortal as yet.
Revelation 20:5 is perfectly clear: The rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over.

So if this is the return then your teaching at his return the rapture takes place

As Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thess 4:17 tell us, those who remain, will be gathered and will go to where Jesus will be; in Jerusalem. A horizontal transportation, as demonstrated by Philip; Acts 8:39 No body change needed.

What?

The proof that 1 Cor 15:50-56 is a Prophecy about the GWT Judgment, AFTER the Millennium, is in Revelation 21:4, that tells us Death will be finally done away with then, In Eternity, not before.

how are they resurrected? Mortal ?

The Great Trib martyrs, whose souls Jesus will bring back to earth with Him, will be resurrected back to mortal life. I assume that God will reassemble their atoms and cells, but without any physical disabilities and with their heads attached!
They may die again, as Lazarus did, but like Lazarus, their change into immortality is assured, John 11:23-24, Revelation 20:6

It is illogical and unscriptural to think that anybody will receive immortality, or 'glorified bodies', before Judgment and the commencement of Eternity. Note: that Job, David and Lazarus - ALL the dead saints, lie in their graves until they are raised along with everybody who has ever lived, to stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
A simple operation, as the Book of Life is opened and those whose names are found in it, will receive immortality, those not; go into the Lake of fire; which is annihilation, they will be remembered no more.

 

[dfw69]

Only of the martyrs killed during the Great Tribulation, during the final 3 1/2 years of this age.
They are brought back to life, NOT made immortal as yet.
Revelation 20:5 is perfectly clear: The rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over.

But that’s not what 1 thes 4:16 teaches keras nothing is said about martyrs nor the great tribulation… it does say in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 “we”as in Paul include and the Thessalonians dead
Are to be resurrected during this time thus the encouragement for those who lost their loved ones

And so if what you believe 1 thes 4:16 is the coming of the lord then that’s when all the dead in Christ are risen that is if 1 thes 4 refers to the second coming

As Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thess 4:17 tell us, those who remain, will be gathered and will go to where Jesus will be; in Jerusalem. A horizontal transportation, as demonstrated by Philip; Acts 8:39 No body change needed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-l7 says nothing about going to Jerusalem or being transport to Jerusalem another assumption on your part

The proof that 1 Cor 15:50-56 is a Prophecy about the GWT Judgment, AFTER the Millennium, is in Revelation 21:4, that tells us Death will be finally done away with then, In Eternity, not before.

I disagree here because this is your assumption . you do realize there is no mention of the great white throne judgement by Paul ? wouldn’t he insert that piece of information for the reason of the transformation to immortality to stand before the throne and be judged?

Plus if what you say is true that 1 cor 15:51-53 happens at the great white throne judgement the Paul teaches that we will all be changed the dead and the living so that all are raised immortal ….and if all are raised immortal at the great white throne judgement then those cast into the lake of fire will not be annihilated

But he does mention the kingdom of god which was and is in heaven when Paul wrote this 1 cor 15:50 and also mentions our transformation into the heavenly man 1 cor 15:49

Also Paul says we (Christians ) we will not all sleep be “we” (Christians including Paul and the Corinthians ) will all be changed

the scripture where there is rejoicing over death takes place when the dead in Christ are resurrected and living transformed rejoice over death not at the great white throne judgment as you say

There is no rejoicing mention at the description of the great white throne judgement

The Great Trib martyrs, whose souls Jesus will bring back to earth with Him, will be resurrected back to mortal life. I assume that God will reassemble their atoms and cells, but without any physical disabilities and with their heads attached!
They may die again, as Lazarus did, but like Lazarus, their change into immortality is assured, John 11:23-24, Revelation 20:6

Matthew 24:31 does not mention a resurrection keras …all it says is that there is a trumpet call angels are sent out to gather the elect
Another assumption on your part

It is illogical and unscriptural to think that anybody will receive immortality, or 'glorified bodies', before Judgment and the commencement of Eternity.

The gospel teaches there is no condemnation for those in Christ

Christ bore our judgement on the cross john 5:24 he is our Passover from death to life Roman’s 5:1 Roman’s 8:1

Note: that Job, David and Lazarus - ALL the dead saints, lie in their graves until they are raised along with everybody who has ever lived, to stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
A simple operation, as the Book of Life is opened and those whose names are found in it, will receive immortality, those not; go into the Lake of fire; which is annihilation, they will be remembered no more.

I see your views thanks for your replies
I have to disagree here too

The lost dead are resurrected and stand before the throne this is the second death

Which no Christian is a part of

As for the lake of fire is annihilation I’m not sure that is correct either

The beast and false prophet were still there nothing is said of their annihilation

 

[keras]

And so if what you believe 1 thes 4:16 is the coming of the lord then that’s when all the dead in Christ are risen

1 Thess 4:16 does NOT say 'all' the dead will rise when Jesus Returns. You have added the -all. bad you.
We know it isn't all the dead, from Revelation 20:4. Thinking Paul meant 'all', creates a Biblical anomaly. Not possible.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-l7 says nothing about going to Jerusalem or being transport to Jerusalem another assumption on your part

Again, we don't expect every Prophecy to give all the details. Jesus Returning to Jerusalem is told to us in Zechariah 14:4.

Paul says we (Christians ) we will not all sleep

This refers to the Christian people still alive at the end of the Millennium.

the scripture where there is rejoicing over death takes place when the dead in Christ are resurrected and living transformed rejoice over death not at the great white throne judgment as you say

Where did I say that? The GWT Judgment will be a very solemn occasion.
The rejoicing is when Jesus Returns.

Matthew 24:31 does not mention a resurrection keras …all it says is that there is a trumpet call angels are sent out to gather the elect

The angels will gather those who remain, most of them will be the faithful people who were kept safe for the 1260 days.
The only dead gathered and resurrected, will be the GT martyrs, whose souls Jesus will bring with Him.

As for the lake of fire is annihilation I’m not sure that is correct either

If it is your desire that the ungodly will cook forever, you can keep it. I, and I trust: God is more humane than that.

 

[JulieB67]

How do you believe god is gonna save
you from wrath?

I really can't believe you would even have to ask this. Remember Daniel in the lions dens and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the fiery furnace? God can take care of his own.

iI’m not separating Paul is teaching 2 appointments not me

The original subject was about where the dead/asleep are. It was not even about a pretrib rapture. Paul was trying to comfort them and then went on to explain what happens at the Lord's return. And then, yes the subject turns to the Lord's return and the verses never change subject to two appointments. It's all about one day -day of the Lord/day of Christ

They should all be read like this,
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;" "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord "Wherefore comfort one another with these words. "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you." "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.""For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.""Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

He doesn't change the subject, it's all about the day of the Lord which is when Christ returns. And again, we are to watch so that very day doesn't overtake us as a thief. It's not that we will not be there. What to we watch for? The signs that Christ lay out. The signs that Paul lays out in his very next letter.

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

The subject is the coming of the Lord and our gathering back to him. The same subject at the end of 1st chapter 4 and into 5. He includes himself and them in this gathering meaning that if it were to happen then, this gathering would include them. He goes on to tell them not to be shaken or confused even by letter from them. Which of course is 1st Thessalonians. He's stating don't be confused by that letter that the day was at hand. It's not. It's not immenent. And why not? Because 2 things would have to happen before then.

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."


II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Paul can't make it any clearer than that.

He states our gathering back to Christ will not happen until those things unfold. We can either heed that warning or not. I choose to heed that warning.

do you not know why they didn’t ask about the rapture ?

They ask for signs of his coming.

What do you think is the evil day what is that about?

Exactly what I already stated. Satan and co will be here deceiving the world into believing he's the true savior. That's why Paul preaches about this,

II Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

Transformed in the Greek is disguised. And you don't don a disguise unless eyes will be on you. This is what the armour is for.

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

We aren't talking about living through every day life. We are talking about the actual devil when he will be here at that time. One has to have the full armour on including the word of God so you will be able to stand in "that evil day". Wiles in the Greek means traveling over. i.e. travesty (trickery)

How do you prepare? Prepare for what?

You prepare spiritually by knowing Christ does not return first. Many are expecting him first which is exactly why he states he comes at an hour you would not expect.
You prepare by heeding the warnings by Christ who states "if they say Christ is here or there believe it not" You prepare by knowing what Paul taught and to have the full gospel armour on. It's states very clearly in Revelation how you overcome the devil when he's here. Remember it's our souls that we want to remain intact. Christ states the saints in their patience have to possess their souls.

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death

What is the deception you are referring to?

The deception that will snare the entire world. What I just talked about.

There is a lot of signs throughout scripture any particular signs you are look for?

The ones Christ and Paul lay out.

Who will be the fake Christ?

There's a lot of different opinions on that. I think it's one of Satan's roles. Remember he will be disguised as an angel of light. It's his trickery that we have to watch for. It was prophesized long ago he would sit on the sides of the north proclaiming to be God back in Isaiah. Many think this was a babylon king but it points to Satan. Many types back then point to Satan. And babylon kings had their own gods they worshipped. They never sat on the sides of the north in Jerusalem proclaiming to be God. It only points to Satan. He's the one that is disguised, looks like a lamb but spoke as a dragon and so on.

Look how these verses and Paul's teachings exactly mirror one another,

Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: That is the temple mount in Jerusalem. This hasn't happened yet.

Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the MOST HIGH."


II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Exact teaching of Paul all those years later which identifies the entity. It matches up with his teachings about Satan being disguised as an angel of light.

Isaiah 14:15 "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."


"Revelation 20:3 "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

I would not totally deny the rapture as if it’s not possible i would put it on a shelf just in case your teachers are wrong in their interpretation

My teachers are Christ and Paul. It's man that taught me the pretrib rapture doctrine.

ok but 1 thes 4:16-17 mentions a trumpet call to awake the dead and then those alive will be caught up to meet the lord in the air

You do realize that air in this verse does not mean elevation as in sky?

Air in this verse is basically the air we breath in.

Air in the Greek from this verse is 109 aer -To breath unconsciously i.e. respire.

He did not use the word for air that for example is utilized in this verse,

Matthew 6:26 "Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

Air in this verse is the sky. It's Greek word 3772 ouranos which means (though the idea of elevation), the sky by extension the heaven.

If Paul wanted to show anyone rising up in the air to meet Christ he certainly would have used ouranos, not aer.

 

[Timtofly]

As Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thess 4:17 tell us, those who remain, will be gathered and will go to where Jesus will be; in Jerusalem.

How are people gathered from heaven, if you claim no people are in heaven?

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

How are people way up in the clouds, ie heaven if people are not allowed to be in heaven?

These verses clearly teach that many are already up in heaven, or no one could be gathered from there period. Obviously these humans have already arrived in heaven to already be there even in the first century. For the last 1900+ years more people have arrived in heaven to be gathered at the Second Coming. Those on earth have been unable to stop the process.

No one has figured out how to stay alive on earth for hundreds or thousands of years to stop this gathering in heaven. Paul clearly points out some will be alive on the earth, but not all of them. Now you say Jesus and Paul are not talking about the Second Coming, but 1,000 years after the Second Coming? Yet these people are all still in heaven, no? They still have to be gathered from heaven, no?

 

[Timtofly]

I really can't believe you would even have to ask this. Remember Daniel in the lions dens and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the fiery furnace? God can take care of his own.

Would you say that only two out of billions are still alive and killed in Jerusalem at the very end? Then those 2 are resurrected and raptured, as they are the only ones who ascend?


Or will there be hundreds or thousands of bodies in Jerusalem or all over creation, that will lay dead for 3.5 days, then resurrected, and then ascend?

The only others mentioned for this time are those who have their heads physically removed from their bodies. Certainly not protected, but literally died. They are not resurrected like the 2 witnesses. They have to wait until after Armageddon to be resurrected after Satan is bound in the pit.

 

[keras]

These verses clearly teach that many are already up in heaven

That's your interpretation, But Matthew 24:31 cannot mean people will be gathered from the Spiritual heaven. Basically, that verse is a Hebraic parallelism, repeating the same thing in another way.
The faithful peoples will be gathered by the angels from every corner of the earth, they will be transported thru the air, [the heavens] to be with King Jesus in Jerusalem. As His Priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:10

There is no scripture that says people will go to heaven - ever. Eventually God and heaven come to the earth. Revelation 21 -22

 

[JulieB67]

The only others mentioned for this time are those who have their heads physically removed from their bodies. Certainly not protected, but literally died.

The subject we or at least I was talking about is God's wrath that's ushered in when it's all said and done. Not what Satan, his angels and followers do before then. And I'm not sure how many will lose their lives for their beliefs. Revelation claims the devil will throw some in prison. How many that is, I do not know. But some will remain alive. How many that is, I also don't know. I'm just going by the scriptures.

 

[dfw69]

1 Thess 4:16 does NOT say 'all' the dead will rise when Jesus Returns. You have added the -all. bad you.
We know it isn't all the dead, from Revelation 20:4. Thinking Paul meant 'all', creates a Biblical anomaly. Not possible.

Hi keras how’s your day going?

So the reason Paul mentions the resurrection and rapture to the Thessalonians is to give them hope that the dead in Christ are going to be resurrected at his coming so “all the dead who are in Christ” will be resurrected at his coming including Paul you and me if we died tomorrow

Again, we don't expect every Prophecy to give all the details. Jesus Returning to Jerusalem is told to us in Zechariah 14:4.

Yes

This refers to the Christian people still alive at the end of the Millennium.

Brother you said this takes place at his return…. 1 thes :4:16

1 thes 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that (God will bring with Jesus) those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

There is a resurrection and rapture for all the saints not just the great tribulation saints

And you said when Jesus returns he only resurrects the tribulation saints at his coming

The only dead gathered and resurrected, will be the GT martyrs, whose souls Jesus will bring with Him.

That’s not what Paul teaches in 1 thes 4