There is no Rapture

[keras]

Hi keras how’s your day going?

Today is hot and very humid; quite tiring. I help at an op shop one day a week and shifted a lot of winter clothes into storage. Good exercise!

So the reason Paul mentions the resurrection and rapture to the Thessalonians is to give them hope that the dead in Christ are going to be resurrected at his coming so “all the dead who are in Christ” will be resurrected at his coming including Paul you and me if we died tomorrow

I repeat: Paul does NOT say 'all' the Christian dead. Revelation 20:4 tells us who will be resurrected.

There is a resurrection and rapture for all the saints not just the great tribulation saints

Pure wishful thinking. No one can be made immortal until the Book of Life is opened. AFTER the Millennium.

 

[dfw69]

Today is hot and very humid; quite tiring. I help at an op shop one day a week and shifted a lot of winter clothes into storage. Good exercise!

Nice …I’m a tile man by trade

I repeat: Paul does NOT say 'all' the Christian dead. Revelation 20:4 tells us who will be resurrected.

Keras you amaze me bro it says so that all Christians are resurrected and go up to meet Jesus at his coming 1 thes 4

And for me that coming is our blessed hope

Not the second coming

Pure wishful thinking. No one can be made immortal until the Book of Life is opened. AFTER the Millennium.

It’s not though ..we don’t need to be judge to recieve the gift of salvation

 

[dfw69]

I really can't believe you would even have to ask this. Remember Daniel in the lions dens and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the fiery furnace? God can take care of his own.

Well if you ask 5 different people a question on cf you get 5 different answers lol

I was just wondering what you believe specifically…. Is he gonna shelter you in a mountain or maybe u have a specific scripture you hold that says how god is gonna save you during the wrath ?

The original subject was about where the dead/asleep are. It was not even about a pretrib rapture. Paul was trying to comfort them and then went on to explain what happens at the Lord's return. And then, yes the subject turns to the Lord's return and the verses never change subject to two appointments. It's all about one day -day of the Lord/day of Christ

That’s what you believe and I appreciate you sharing but I read that differently

Yes it was about the dead and having no hope seeing them again but Paul comforts them with the revelation


But we both know where u and I disagree
When it takes place
For me it’s definitely pretrib

One coming or two ?
One in the air one to earth?

I for one definitely see one for his children one for to rule

They should all be read like this,
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;" "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord "Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Comfort

"But of the times and the seasons,

Yea here’s what you don’t see … time and season? No he said times and seasons plural

brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you." "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.""For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

There’s one time and season for those in the night

"But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.""Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

We are not them

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Told us not to become like them instead we Watch and be sober

Watch for what, the day of the lord ? No because we are not them that that day should overtake us

You should have posted the rest to see the end result about not appointed that day ..there is another appointment for those of the day , another time and season

Thus the plural times and seasons Paul was referring to

He doesn't change the subject, it's all about the day of the Lord which is when Christ returns.

I disagree and if you read carefully you’ll see that’s not correct

For Paul clearly revealed 2 different appointments one for those of the night
One for those who belong to the day

With 2 different outcomes
The night know not when he comes
We will know when he comes
We receive salvation
They receive unexpected wrath

And again, we are to watch so that very day doesn't overtake us as a thief. It's not that we will not be there. What to we watch for? The signs that Christ lay out. The signs that Paul lays out in his very next letter.

Assumption… no mention of watching for signs sis

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

The subject is the coming of the Lord and our gathering back to him.

Yes the rapture… agree

The same subject at the end of 1st chapter 4 and into 5. He includes himself and them in this gathering meaning that if it were to happen then, this gathering would include them.

Yes amen

He goes on to tell them not to be shaken or confused even by letter from them.

Let me finish the sentence…”Saying that the day of the lord is at hand”

Putting fear into the Thessalonian church
Which was a lie , the day of the lord was not at hand

Which of course is 1st Thessalonians. He's stating don't be confused by that letter that the day was at hand. It's not. It's not immenent. And why not? Because 2 things would have to happen before then.

Yes Amen sis

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."


II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day

Now he goes to explain the day of the lord does not come until…

shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Paul can't make it any clearer than that.

Yes I’m with you here

He states our gathering back to Christ will not happen until those things unfold. We can either heed that warning or not. I choose to heed that warning.

Aaaaah nope you missed it right here sis…. he did not say that …he is talking about the other subject that you and I agree on, about the day of the lord and how it does not take place until 2 things happen…so they would know that they are not at the day of the lord

They ask for signs of his coming.

Maybe it doesn’t say that but I can see them wondering

Exactly what I already stated. Satan and co will be here deceiving the world into believing he's the true savior. That's why Paul preaches about this,

II Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

Satan is cast down at a specific time yes

Transformed in the Greek is disguised. And you don't don a disguise unless eyes will be on you. This is what the armour is for.

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

You do know part of the armor is the helmet the hope of salvation right?

Expecting salvation …

We aren't talking about living through every day life.

But we need the armor in every day life too sis

We are talking about the actual devil when he will be here at that time. One has to have the full armour on including the word of God so you will be able to stand in "that evil day". Wiles in the Greek means traveling over. i.e. travesty (trickery)

Well sure we do ..I agree

You prepare spiritually by knowing Christ does not return first.

I know satan is cast down first and antichrist and false prophet comes before jesus returns to earth

I don’t know how you would prepare spiritually for that ? You can elaborate if you want

Many are expecting him first which is exactly why he states he comes at an hour you would not expect.

For those in the night not those who belong to him , who are of the day

Are you preaching fear? Cause it sure
sounded like it to me ,no offense sis

You prepare by heeding the warnings by Christ who states "if they say Christ is here or there believe it not"

Amen do not go after the false
Messiahs and false prophets

You prepare by knowing what Paul taught and to have the full gospel armour on.

Ok I have my helmet on the hope of salvation

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death

Tribulation saints yes

The deception that will snare the entire world. What I just talked about.

The ones Christ and Paul lay out.

There's a lot of different opinions on that. I think it's one of Satan's roles. Remember he will be disguised as an angel of light. It's his trickery that we have to watch for. It was prophesized long ago he would sit on the sides of the north proclaiming to be God back in Isaiah. Many think this was a babylon king but it points to Satan. Many types back then point to Satan. And babylon kings had their own gods they worshipped. They never sat on the sides of the north in Jerusalem proclaiming to be God. It only points to Satan. He's the one that is disguised, looks like a lamb but spoke as a dragon and so on.

Look how these verses and Paul's teachings exactly mirror one another,

Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Lucifer is a poor translation of the Hebrew word Heylel it is Heylel who Isaiah is talking about he is a man not an angel but I see what you’re saying

Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: That is the temple mount in Jerusalem. This hasn't happened yet.

Yes agree only it’s Heylel Who is a man not satan

Heylel (behold god) he will claimed to be

Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the MOST HIGH."


II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Exact teaching of Paul all those years later which identifies the entity. It matches up with his teachings about Satan being disguised as an angel of light.

Again not satan but yet Paul is referring to him the man of sin

Isaiah 14:15 "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

Yes Heylel the Antichrist the beast the man of sin he has many names is cast in the lake of fire

"Revelation 20:3 "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

Yes satan will be cast into lake of fire too

My teachers are Christ and Paul. It's man that taught me the pretrib rapture doctrine.

Well I see the rapture in scripture,but ok

You do realize that air in this verse does not mean elevation as in sky?

Air in this verse is basically the air we breath in.

Air in the Greek from this verse is 109 aer -To breath unconsciously i.e. respire.

He did not use the word for air that for example is utilized in this verse,

If your referring to the scripture where it says Jesus comes in the air then it also says we meet him in the clouds
So we definitely go upward to the clouds to meet Jesus

Matthew 6:26 "Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

Air in this verse is the sky. It's Greek word 3772 ouranos which means (though the idea of elevation), the sky by extension the heaven.

If Paul wanted to show anyone rising up in the air to meet Christ he certainly would have used ouranos, not aer.

It says we meet him in the clouds so there’s no confusion 1 thes 4:17

Thanks for the replies sis peace

 

[keras]

Keras you amaze me bro it says so that all Christians are resurrected and go up to meet Jesus at his coming 1 thes 4

All the LIVING Christians. Plus the dead martyrs, including the 2 Witnesses.
AND it isn't to heaven. but to Jerusalem: His destination, where He will reign from for the next 1000 years, As Zechariah 14:16-21 says.

It’s not though ..we don’t need to be judge to recieve the gift of salvation

You amaze me. No Judgment? try reading Hebrews 9:27
Take a good look at 1 Corinthians 3:12-15
These and plenty of other scriptures, totally destroy any notions of a surprise 'rapture to heaven'.

EVERYBODY will be Judged and it will happen when the Prophesies say it will; AFTER the Millennium.

 

[dfw69]

All the LIVING Christians. Plus the dead martyrs, including the 2 Witnesses.
AND it isn't to heaven. but to Jerusalem: His destination, where He will reign from for the next 1000 years, As Zechariah 14:16-21 says.

I see you don’t have the dead in Christ included in his appearing so let’s go back to the scripture that you said is the return of Christ

1 thes 4:13-18

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. ….( these are the dead in Christ)

14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him….. (“in him” keras , The dead in Christ)

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. ….(We the living will not go up before who keras? the dead in Christ and the dead are risen first keras ….when? At the coming of the lord not the gwt )

16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first…. (Jesus coming ,trumpet call ,the dead in Christ rise first
Who rises first keras? ..the dead in Christ)

17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (After the resurrection of the dead we meet up with them in the clouds to meet the lord in the air)

To Jerusalem? It does not say the destination so anyone claiming it’s Jerusalem is making an assumption

Here is our destination keras

Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven.And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

Is our citizenship Jerusalem keras? No heaven

18Therefore encourage each other with these words….. (Good news)

You amaze me. No Judgment? try reading Hebrews 9:27
Take a good look at 1 Corinthians 3:12-15
These and plenty of other scriptures, totally destroy any notions of a surprise 'rapture to heaven'.

EVERYBODY will be Judged and it will happen when the Prophesies say it will; AFTER the Millennium.

I don’t want to start another debate about judgement I’ll let this go lol

 

[keras]

I see you don’t have the dead in Christ included in his appearing

Revelation 20:4-5, is the proof text for what happens to the dead.
The martyrs killed during the 42 month period of world Satanic control, will be resurrected ay the Return of Jesus.
The rest of the dead Christian or secular must wait until the thousand years is over; for the GWT Judgemnt. Rev 20:11-15

To Jerusalem? It does not say the destination

But Jerusalem is the destination of Jesus. Zechariah 14:4 The living Christians will go there with Him.

Is our citizenship Jerusalem keras? No heaven

Yes. That is our destiny, earth is our home and we never leave it.
Paul never says we will take up that citizenship, he means that we Christians are enrolled in the Book of Life and after the Millennium, our names will be found in it. Rev 20:11-15

 

[dfw69]

Revelation 20:4-5, is the proof text for what happens to the dead.

It says the rest of the dead (that was killed at that time) not from all time since the beginning of the world it doesn’t say that all dead since the beginning of the world

All saints will be a part of the first resurrection

The martyrs killed during the 42 month period of world Satanic control, will be resurrected ay the Return of Jesus.

Yes

The rest of the dead Christian or secular must wait until the thousand years is over; for the GWT Judgemnt. Rev 20:11-15

No lol… 1 thes 4:13-18



13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.
You say this is great trib saints Paul says dead in Christ… “

Paul said “brothers don’t be ignorant” (paraphrasing) lol

You said you are Christian so you expect to be resurrected and face god and his great white throne judgement?

You do realize this is not the judgement seat of Christ right?

But Jerusalem is the destination of Jesus. Zechariah 14:4 The living Christians will go there with Him.

He will gather his elect at his coming yes to Jerusalem yes

The rapture is a different story

Yes. That is our destiny, earth is our home and we never leave it.
Paul never says we will take up that citizenship, he means that we Christians are enrolled in the Book of Life and after the Millennium, our names will be found in it. Rev 20:11-15

Phil 3:20-21 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even ti subject all things to himself.

Paul says our citizenship is in heaven not Jerusalem and we await a savior form heaven to transform our bodies to be like his glorified body

Keras can you not see having a glorified body like Jesus is not to live in Jerusalem but to live in heaven ?

If Jesus can enter heaven with his glorified body and we will have a glorified body like his , what can we conclude? if u put two and two together it doesn’t add up to Jerusalem it adds to heaven

 

[keras]

It says the rest of the dead (that was killed at that time) not from all time since the beginning of the world it doesn’t say that all dead since the beginning of the world

ALL the dead are referred to in Revelation 20:12-13, everyone was Judged by the record of their deeds.
Obviously and logically, verse 5, means all the dead since Adam. That event is the final wrap up of Gods plan for mankind.

All saints will be a part of the first resurrection

Not scriptural and a contradiction of Rev 20:4
Please explain who exactly you think are 'all the dead saints'? Do they include Adam, Abraham, the Apostles, Billy Graham and your grandmother?

You say this is great trib saints Paul says dead in Christ… “

Yes. Only the GT martyrs will be brought back to life; not immortality yet.

You said you are Christian so you expect to be resurrected and face god and his great white throne judgement?

Yes. Maybe, I hope to live into part of the Millennium. After my death, the next conscious moment I will have, will be as I stand alongside every other person who has ever lived, before God on His Great White Throne.

You do realize this is not the judgement seat of Christ right?

Actually it is, because Christ will intercede for us to the Father. God does not judge, per se, as our fate is determined by whether or not, our name is Written in the Book of Life.

The rapture is a different story

A 'rapture to heaven', is a fable and a Satanic lie. There is no valid reason for the Lord to remove anyone from the earth. We have the Great Commission, Matthew 28:20, and it isn't rescinded until Jesus Returns.

Keras can you not see having a glorified body like Jesus is not to live in Jerusalem but to live in heaven ?

Where do you get the idea of 'glorified bodies"?
Verses like ....we will be like He is.... do not say when that would happen. We know when; from Revelation 20 - AFTER the Millennium, to all those found worthy to receive immortality.
People who hope to be given a nice new body, are in dreamland, it just isn't going to happen. Just another fable. 2 Timthy 4:3-4
But those who go into the Millennium with Jesus, will live much longer and be disease free. Isaiah 65:19-22

 

[dfw69]

ALL the dead are referred to in Revelation 20:12-13, everyone was Judged by the record of their deeds.
Obviously and logically, verse 5, means all the dead since Adam. That event is the final wrap up of Gods plan for mankind.

No it for those that didn’t take part in the first resurrection …Those that take part in the first resurrection don’t have to worry about the gwt judgment

Not scriptural and a contradiction of Rev 20:4
Please explain who exactly you think are 'all the dead saints'? Do they include Adam, Abraham, the Apostles, Billy Graham and your grandmother?

Well there was a resurrection when Jesus arose so the first fruits that arose could mean the past saints arose when Jesus arose

But we now await a savior to resurrect our past loved ones since Jesus went to heaven

Yes. Only the GT martyrs will be brought back to life; not immortality yet.

That’s because our rapture and resurrection will have already taken place many years ago before this

Yes. Maybe, I hope to live into part of the Millennium. After my death, the next conscious moment I will have, will be as I stand alongside every other person who has ever lived, before God on His Great White Throne.

Not me I don’t expect that at all

Actually it is, because Christ will intercede for us to the Father. God does not judge, per se, as our fate is determined by whether or not, our name is Written in the Book of Life.

No mention of that in the description of the great white throne

A 'rapture to heaven', is a fable and a Satanic lie. There is no valid reason for the Lord to remove anyone from the earth. We have the Great Commission, Matthew 28:20, and it isn't rescinded until Jesus Returns.

No it’s not a satanic lie , I believe Paul is telling the truth

Where do you get the idea of 'glorified bodies"?
Verses like ....we will be like He is.... do not say when that would happen.

Scripture here’s one for you to eat …
1 John 3:2

We know when; from Revelation 20 - AFTER the Millennium, to all those found worthy to receive immortality.
People who hope to be given a nice new body, are in dreamland, it just isn't going to happen. Just another fable. 2 Timthy 4:3-4
But those who go into the Millennium with Jesus, will live much longer and be disease free. Isaiah 65:19-22

Nope the denial of the rapture to heaven is a fable bro

 

[keras]

Play ping pong do you? I ping and you.......

No it for those that didn’t take part in the first resurrection …Those that take part in the first resurrection don’t have to worry about the gwt judgment

Many scriptures say how everybody will be tested and Judged. There is no first resurrection, except for the GT martyrs.

Well there was a resurrection when Jesus arose so the first fruits that arose could mean the past saints arose when Jesus arose

This is somewhat garbled, but the few ancient saints who came out of their graves, when Jesus was resurrected, must have gone to 'sleep' again.
Jesus Himself was the first fruit of the resurrection to immortality.

But we now await a savior to resurrect our past loved ones since Jesus went to heaven

More opiniated wishful thinking. This cannot happen until the GWT Judgment.

That’s because our rapture and resurrection will have already taken place many years ago before this

What sheer rubbish, nothing in the Bible supports this fanciful belief.

Not me I don’t expect that at all

You seem unable to comprehend teachings like; 1 Peter 4:12, Hebrews 9:27

No mention of that in the description of the great white throne

There is in Daniel 7:9-10. Jesus sits at the right hand of God. Psalms 110:1

No it’s not a satanic lie , I believe Paul is telling the truth

But Paul never says there will be a rapture to heaven for the Church.
Satan is laughing at how Christians have fallen for the rapture false teaching. It makes them complacent and unaware of the real future events.

Scripture here’s one for you to eat …

I said that scriptures that say: ...we will be like Him, do NOT say when that will happen.
You fail to understand me as well as scripture.

Nope the denial of the rapture to heaven is a fable bro

I am aware that it is virtually impossible for people like you to renounce the rapture. You family and friends would think you have gone mad.
The best I can do, is to show there is an alternative and what will happen when the Lord strikes the earth with His fiery wrath.

The Lord DOES have a good future for His faithful peoples, for our wellbeing and not misfortune..... Jeremiah 29:11-14

 

[dfw69]

Play ping pong do you? I ping and you.......

Are you trying to be the grinch who stole the rapture? It cannot be done … the door to heaven will open Jesus comes in the air to gather his children

Many scriptures say how everybody will be testes and Judged. There is no first resurrection, except for the GT martyrs.

It doesn’t say that keras

This is somewhat garbled, but the few ancient saints who came out of their graves, when Jesus was resurrected, must have gone to 'sleep' again.
Jesus Himself was the first fruit of the resurrection to immortality.

“First fruits”( plural) look at it again

But Paul never says there will be a rapture to heaven for the Church.

Yes he does

Satan is laughing at how Christians have fallen for the rapture false teaching. It makes them complacent and unaware of the real future events.

Let him laugh his day is coming

I said that scriptures that sat ...we will be like Him, do NOT say when that will happen.
You fail to understand me as well as scripture.

Scripture says we will be like him when he appears

I am aware that it is virtually impossible for people like you to renounce the rapture. You family and friends would think you have gone mad.

Lol no they won’t

I cannot renounce the truth

 

[keras]

Are you trying to be the grinch who stole the rapture? It cannot be done … the door to heaven will open Jesus comes in the air to gather his children

Not me, but the Lord will do what He has told us thru His Prophets. There will be no rapture to heaven.
The gathering, as per 1 Thess 4:17 and Matthew 24:31, is to Jerusalem. It is untrue to say the destination is heaven.

It doesn’t say that keras

I could post dozens of verses that say we will be tried, tested and Judged. There will be no escape for anyone.

“First fruits”( plural) look at it again

Jesus is the first and only one so far to be resurrected into immortality.

Yes he does

Its a great idea, like Monopoly: go past GO and get out of jail free.
Provide scripture where Paul says the Church will go to live in heaven.

Let him laugh his day is coming

Satan will be vanquished, but before then; he will deceive many. Take care!

Scripture says we will be like him when he appears

1 John 3:2-3 is the quote you use, Verse 3 - As He is pure, everyone who has this hope, makes himself pure too.
So it doesn't mean we will become immortal at that time at all. Thinking it does makes a Biblical contradiction.

I cannot renounce the truth

‘Rapture to heaven’ believers say that people who dispute their theory; just cannot see or understand that belief.

It’s what we don't see in the Bible, where the difference lies. Nowhere does scripture say God intends to take His people to heaven. In fact Jesus Himself says such a thing is impossible. John 3:13, John 7:34, Revelation 2:25-26, etc.

People who read the whole Bible can establish the truth for themselves - that God's purpose is to have a people who will be His faithful believers, doing His will on earth. THAT is our purpose and our destiny!
But a lot of people don't bother to find out this truth. They listen to teachers and read fictional books that say we can just be good people, churchgoers and tithers and God will remove them to heaven. They are told this fantastic event will happen before any judgement or testing of their faith. They are told it is the Jewish people who must face tribulation, not them.
This scenario is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is made up from assumptions and making scriptures mean something they do not. For instance, John 14:1-3 which is a prophecy about the new heavens and earth that comes down after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

So the 'rapture to heaven' believers will never convince anyone who seriously reads their Bible. The lazy people who accept doctrines from anywhere, except the Bible, are deceived and because they choose to believe lies, the Lord has locked them into their delusions. Isaiah 29:9-12, and stopped their ears to the truth; 2 Timothy 4:4

 

[dfw69]

Not me, but the Lord will do what He has told us thru His Prophets. There will be no rapture to heaven.
The gathering, as per 1 Thess 4:17 and Matthew 24:31, is to Jerusalem. It is untrue to say the destination is heaven.

Are you saying my father told you that he’s not rapturing me to heaven though he promised me he would?

What kind of gospel are you preaching ?

I could post dozens of verses that say we will be tried, tested and Judged. There will be no escape for anyone.

That’s not what my father told me

Jesus is the first and only one so far to be resurrected into immortality.

And my father said we shall be like him to receive glorious bodies like his as an inheritance for faith in him

Its a great idea, like Monopoly: go past GO and get out of jail free.
Provide scripture where Paul says the Church will go to live in heaven.

Done so already ..but you ignored it or said it means something else

Satan will be vanquished, but before then; he will deceive many. Take care!

My father in heaven has got my back he defeated satan on the cross so we have a hope

1 John 3:2-3 is the quote you use, Verse 3 - As He is pure, everyone who has this hope, makes himself pure too.
So it doesn't mean we will become immortal at that time at all. Thinking it does makes a Biblical contradiction.

you say it’s a contradiction
It’s not it’s clear as day when he comes we shall be transformed like his glorious body

‘Rapture to heaven’ believers say that people who dispute their theory; just cannot see or understand that belief.

Question? Pick one for the correct answer Is Jesus your ?
A king
B father
C god
D savior

Then explain why you chose your answer

It’s what we don't see in the Bible, where the difference lies. Nowhere does scripture say God intends to take His people to heaven. In fact Jesus Himself says such a thing is impossible. John 3:13, John 7:34, Revelation 2:25-26, etc.

I have faith in what I see in the scriptures about the rapture and you know what they say about faith?

People who read the whole Bible can establish the truth for themselves - that God's purpose is to have a people who will be His faithful believers, doing His will on earth. THAT is our purpose and our destiny!

You sound like a servant

But a lot of people don't bother to find out this truth.

I’m not one of them …I’ve listen to your proof of a non existing rapture to heaven
And it’s more like poof …gone… it doesn’t exists …your reasoning is not there to discredit Paul’s teachings about a rapture to heaven

Your proof is poof

They listen to teachers and read fictional books that say we can just be good people, churchgoers and tithers and God will remove them to heaven. They are told this fantastic event will happen before any judgement or testing of their faith. They are told it is the Jewish people who must face tribulation, not them.
This scenario is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is made up from assumptions and making scriptures mean something they do not. For instance, John 14:1-3 which is a prophecy about the new heavens and earth that comes down after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

I’ve listen to your teachings and so far you have not shown any proof that a rapture to heaven doesn’t exist in scripture nor even come close to convincing me that what you believe is truth

So the 'rapture to heaven' believers will never convince anyone who seriously reads their Bible. The lazy people who accept doctrines from anywhere, except the Bible, are deceived and because they choose to believe lies, the Lord has locked them into their delusions. Isaiah 29:9-12, and stopped their ears to the truth; 2 Timothy 4:4

Actually this refers to the good news about Jesus and having faith in him that his enemies reject … it’s the spirit of antichrist

 

[Trivalee]

So do I.
But when Jesus Returns, He will gather [rapture] His faithful people to Him; to where He is - in Jerusalem.

This makes me happy!
I write what the Prophets said, THEY are not wrong. It is people like preterists, AMill's and those with the fanciful notion that the Lord will fly them to heaven, before any trials and testing, that I oppose.
Its been over 10 years, that I have opposed those wrong beliefs and basically we are still at the same impasse. Only when the end time events commence will we all know the truths of God's Plans for our future.

There is ONLY one way that things will really take place; that will be the way God wants and has informed us thru His Prophets. Amos 3:4

Just counted: I have made 53 posts on this thread! Have I convinced anybody? No, Have made you think? Maybe.
At least I have presented the truth as it is Written and given viable, scriptural explanations.

I believe in the rapture, but I don't promote the doctrine of one before the GT. The number of posts you've made is not proof that your theories are right. But wrong as they are, I enjoy reading them and marvel at how you concoct these doctrines that have no bearing on the scriptures you quote.

 

[keras]

Are you saying my father told you that he’s not rapturing me to heaven though he promised me he would?

What kind of gospel are you preaching ?

There is no scripture that says Christians will be raptured to heaven. The Promises of God to His people are for their protection and our eventual transformation to immortality, after the Millennium. Revelation 21 - 22
I preach the Salvation of Jesus and I present the Words of the Bible Prophets, about what God has planned for our future.

That’s not what my father told me

We must be tested, 1 Peter 4:12 and then Judged; 2 Corinthians 5:10
There can be no instant going up to heaven.

And my father said we shall be like him to receive glorious bodies like his as an inheritance for faith in him

Eventually; yes. Those who have proved themselves worthy will receive this. AFTER the Millennium.

Done so already ..but you ignored it or said it means something else

Your replies are all bereft of scriptural support. Instead of typing out a sentence as you have, just put a verse that says: God will take His people to heaven. But I know you can't do it, as there is no such verse.
So your bluff and bluster, and your opinions are worthless.

My father in heaven has got my back he defeated satan on the cross so we have a hope

Know any good Christians who have fallen from grace, do you? Satan is like a roaring line seeking who he can devour... 1 Peter 5:8=9
Believing in the false rapture to heaven theory, shows how susceptible you and all Christians can be.

Question? Pick one for the correct answer Is Jesus your ?
A king
B father
C god
D savior

Then explain why you chose your answer

All of them, is some way.
Are you questioning my faith? If so you violate forum rules and that also shows the desperation of your position.

I have faith in what I see in the scriptures about the rapture and you know what they say about faith?

Then your faith is misplaced. My faith is for the Lord to do what He has Promised to do for His people. For them to live in all of the holy land, in peace and prosperity. Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 51:1-8 Jeremaih 33:1-13, Ezekiel 34:11-16, +

You sound like a servant

Thank you. I trust that I can serve you. by presenting the truth about what will happen in the end times.

I’m not one of them …I’ve listen to your proof of a non existing rapture to heaven
And it’s more like poof …gone… it doesn’t exists …your reasoning is not there to discredit Paul’s teachings about a rapture to heaven

Your proof is poof

I feel sorry for you. The Lord has made you incapable of understanding the truths of Bible Prophecy. He does that to those who choose to believe false teachings. Isaiah 29:9-12

I’ve listen to your teachings and so far you have not shown any proof that a rapture to heaven doesn’t exist in scripture nor even come close to convincing me that what you believe is truth

The onus is on you. You convince me there is a rapture.
I believe that we must be tested by fire and then we go to live in the holy Land. Psalms 107, Isaiah 66:18b-21
Gods holy peoples are seen there before Jesus Returns, Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 7:9

Actually this refers to the good news about Jesus and having faith in him that his enemies reject … it’s the spirit of antichrist

Wanting to escape from the earth when disasters strike, shows a lack of faith, rather than trusting in the Lord to get safely thru all that must happen, rapture believers, just want to get outta here. Not scriptural, not sensible and never going to happen.

 

[keras]

I believe in the rapture, but I don't promote the doctrine of one before the GT.

Yes: the 'harpazo' that Paul prophesies in 1 Thess 4:17, happens when Jesus Returns, after the Great Trib.
But that is the gathering, as per Matthew 24:31, of His faithful people, those who remain. They will go to Jerusalem, where He will be.

The number of posts you've made is not proof that your theories are right

I don't promote theories. Opinions like this are worthless.

I enjoy reading them and marvel at how you concoct these doctrines that have no bearing on the scriptures you quote.

That the scriptures I quote seem to you to be unrelated to the subject, is because of your preconceived beliefs.
To me, they are relevant, they apply to us in these end times.

Believers in the 'rapture to heaven', have the bad habit of throwing most of the end time prophesies to the Jews. You say; they don't apply to we Christians. That is a serious mistake and it leaves you clueless about what God really intends for His faithful people.

 

[dfw69]

There is no scripture that says Christians will be raptured to heaven. The Promises of God to His people are for their protection and our eventual transformation to immortality, after the Millennium. Revelation 21 - 22
I preach the Salvation of Jesus and I present the Words of the Bible Prophets, about what God has planned for our future.

Phil 3:20-21
Clearly says our rapture is to heaven

We must be tested, 1 Peter 4:12 and then Judged; 2 Corinthians 5:10
There can be no instant going up to heaven.

We are not instantly going to heaven

Eventually; yes. Those who have proved themselves worthy will receive this. AFTER the Millennium.

This is your belief not mine I don’t have to prove anything

Your replies are all bereft of scriptural support. Instead of typing out a sentence as you have, just put a verse that says: God will take His people to heaven. But I know you can't do it, as there is no such verse.
So your bluff and bluster, and your opinions are worthless.

Phil 3:20-21 is clear our destination keras

Know any good Christians who have fallen from grace, do you?

No

Satan is like a roaring line seeking who he can devour... 1 Peter 5:8=9
Believing in the false rapture to heaven theory, shows how susceptible you and all Christians can be.

Whatever

Are you questioning my faith? If so you violate forum rules and that also shows the desperation of your position.

If that’s what you think I’m doing perhaps you should not be talking to me …

I thought we were debating…

You question my faith in the rapture… I don’t accuse you of breaking any rules

Then your faith is misplaced.

I stand in my faith in the rapture to heaven that my father has shown me even through your persecutions

Joseph had a dream his brothers persecuted him they didn’t believe him either

You make me feel like Joseph

Thank you. I trust that I can serve you. by presenting the truth about what will happen in the end times.

Serve me? No I don’t want a servant lol

I feel sorry for you. The Lord has made you incapable of understanding the truths of Bible Prophecy. He does that to those who choose to believe false teachings. Isaiah 29:9-12

Feel sorry for me ? Lol don’t I have Jesus

The onus is on you. You convince me there is a rapture.
I believe that we must be tested by fire and then we go to live in the holy Land. Psalms 107, Isaiah 66:18b-21
Gods holy peoples are seen there before Jesus Returns, Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 7:9

I’m defending my faith in the rapture I don’t need to convince you of the rapture you already made up your mind on the subject

Wanting to escape from the earth when disasters strike, shows a lack of faith, rather than trusting in the Lord to get safely thru all that must happen, rapture believers, just want to get outta here. Not scriptural, not sensible and never going to happen.

Saying I lack faith is questioning my faith breaking the rules again …

Yes: the 'harpazo' that Paul prophesies in 1 Thess 4:17, happens when Jesus Returns, after the Great Trib.
But that is the gathering, as per Matthew 24:31, of His faithful people, those who remain. They will go to Jerusalem, where He will be.

Assumption

There is no scripture that says Christians will be raptured to heaven. The Promises of God to His people are for their protection and our eventual transformation to immortality, after the Millennium. Revelation 21 - 22
I preach the Salvation of Jesus and I present the Words of the Bible Prophets, about what God has planned for our future.

We must be tested, 1 Peter 4:12 and then Judged; 2 Corinthians 5:10
There can be no instant going up to heaven.

Eventually; yes. Those who have proved themselves worthy will receive this. AFTER the Millennium.

Your replies are all bereft of scriptural support. Instead of typing out a sentence as you have, just put a verse that says: God will take His people to heaven. But I know you can't do it, as there is no such verse.
So your bluff and bluster, and your opinions are worthless.

Know any good Christians who have fallen from grace, do you? Satan is like a roaring line seeking who he can devour... 1 Peter 5:8=9
Believing in the false rapture to heaven theory, shows how susceptible you and all Christians can be.

All of them, is some way.
Are you questioning my faith? If so you violate forum rules and that also shows the desperation of your position.

Then your faith is misplaced. My faith is for the Lord to do what He has Promised to do for His people. For them to live in all of the holy land, in peace and prosperity. Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 51:1-8 Jeremaih 33:1-13, Ezekiel 34:11-16, +

Thank you. I trust that I can serve you. by presenting the truth about what will happen in the end times.

I feel sorry for you. The Lord has made you incapable of understanding the truths of Bible Prophecy. He does that to those who choose to believe false teachings. Isaiah 29:9-12

The onus is on you. You convince me there is a rapture.
I believe that we must be tested by fire and then we go to live in the holy Land. Psalms 107, Isaiah 66:18b-21
Gods holy peoples are seen there before Jesus Returns, Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 7:9

Wanting to escape from the earth when disasters strike, shows a lack of faith, rather than trusting in the Lord to get safely thru all that must happen, rapture believers, just want to get outta here. Not scriptural, not sensible and never going to happen.

Your getting out of hand keras …let’s agree to disagree and see for ourselves if these things are true in time

Peace to you take care

 

[keras]

Your getting out of hand keras …let’s agree to disagree and see for ourselves if these things are true in time

Peace to you take care

Yes, obviously neither of us is going to change our beliefs.
But one of us is wrong, and we will soon know the Truth about what God has planned for His faithful Christian people.
Here is just one of the many Prophesies about what will happen:

Psalms 46:1-11 God is our refuge and strength, a timely help in trouble, so we are not afraid, though the earth quakes and the mountains be moved, when the seas roar and foam in tumult, when the Lord arises to strike all the world with terror. Isaiah 2:21, Isaiah 28:21, Psalms 7:6, Zephaniah 3:8

There is a river that brings joy to the city of God, the holy dwelling of the Most High. The Lord is there and will not let it be destroyed, at the break of day, He will help her.

When the Lord thunders from on high, the heat of His anger will burn the earth and people will panic. Nations will be in disarray and their ruling powers will be overturned.

But the God of Jacob is with His people, their strength is in trusting Him. Isa. 25:9

Look at what God has done: all the holy Land is burned and desolate. He has destroyed all the military powers around the Land by His fiery wrath.

Let it be known in all the world that I am the Creator God, I will be exalted in My holy Land. I am with My people, I give them strength and protection. REB.


Psalm 46 is an exhortation to those who trust in the Lord’s promises of protection during His forthcoming judgement/punishment of the nations, as described in Psalm 83, Revelation 6:12-17, 2 Peter 3:7 and in many other Bible prophesies. NOT removal!

‘The Lord will thunder from on high’ :This event is not the Return, it will happen before that. Jer. 25:30-31, 2 Peter 3:7, Zech. 9:14, Psalms 11:4-6, Rev. 6:12-17

‘The heat of His anger, His fiery wrath will burn the earth’ : All the world will be affected, but the Middle East will be completely devastated. Isaiah 66:15-16, Obadiah 1:16, Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, Amos 1

‘at the break of day’ : This fire from the heavens, as Isaiah 30:26 tells us, will be a CME sunstrike, that will affect every part of the earth, as it rotates to face the sun
Malachi 4:1, Isaiah 29:6, Joel 2:2, Psalms 18:7-15, The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster; Revelation 6:12-17

‘people will panic’ : This unexpected disaster will shock an terrify all who are not aware or prepared for it. Ezekiel 7:17, Jer. 6:24-26, Isaiah 2:21

‘There will be earthquakes, storms and tsunamis’ : Cities will become uninhabitable and many will die from these effects and the famines afterward. Hosea 4:3, Micah 5:11, Isaiah 29:6, Jer.23:19, Zeph. 1:14-18, Jeremiah 12:4 & 10-17,

‘military strength will be destroyed’ : The weapons of the attackers of Israel will recoil upon themselves. Hosea 2:18, Amos 2:14-16, Psalms 7:12-15, Jeremiah 49:35

‘the worlds ruling powers will be overturned’ : Our present Governments will no longer be able to govern and the nations will give up their sovereignty. This will enable a One World Govt. to be established. Daniel 7:23, Revelation 17:10-13

‘All the holy Land will be burned and virtually depopulated’ : The area from the Nile to the Euphrates will be cleared and cleansed. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 12 :14

‘I am with My people’ : The Lord promises protection to all who ‘call upon His Name’, and after the holy Land has been regenerated, they will go and live there. Psalms 46:7 & 11, Psalms 50:5, Ezekiel 20:34-38, Isaiah 49:8-23, Psalms 107:1-3

 

[Douggg]

‘The heat of His anger, His fiery wrath will burn the earth’ : All the world will be affected, but the Middle East will be completely devastated. Isaiah 66:15-16, Obadiah 1:16, Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, Amos 1

keras, none of those verses indicate a solar flare event. I agree with dfw69 that you cite a bunch of verses - but they don't mean what you say they do. If you would take time to learn how to make some timeline charts, it would make your scenario more understandable.

On the other issue of the rapture, it's your decision about what you believe, but guys like me and dfw69 are not being fazed in our beliefs at all by what you believe.

 

[keras]

keras, none of those verses indicate a solar flare event. I agree with dfw69 that you cite a bunch of verses - but they don't mean what you say they do. If you would take time to learn how to make some timeline charts, it would make your scenario more understandable.

On the other issue of the rapture, it's your decision about what you believe, but guys like me and dfw69 are not being phased in our beliefs at all by what you believe.

There is no other natural occurrence that could literally fulfil all the clearly stated Prophesied about the Day the Lord will change the world.
The Bible Prophesies mean what they say; usually straight out literally, if that is possible, or figuratively; by allegories. Which are explained elsewhere or by careful discernment.
If you think the Prophesies I quote do not mean or fit with the results I propose, then make a valid correction. If you can't, then reconsider your beliefs.

Of course no 'rapture to heaven' believer is going to change their beliefs, you have invested too much into that fable and promoting it gets much agreement and support from others.
There are a few notable examples of people who have renounced the rapture. They will receive great rewards when Jesus Returns.

My end times scenario is a clear sequence of events, supported by many scriptures. Not you, or anyone has found errors in it.

Fazed - not phased!