The latter Days: The type of the latter days

[Zao is life]

Part II of this article is here

Question: Why does Daniel Chapter 7 speak as though the latter days of the fourth kingdom is the latter-day kingdom that will be destroyed by Christ before the kingdom is handed over to the saints of the Most High?

This post shows why.

Firstly, notice that there are two separate times in the book of Daniel that the word "abomination" is associated with the temple of God, and there is a major difference between the two:

(i) Abominations were committed (Daniel 9:26-27) that the text tells us were going to end with the destruction of the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (the temple).

(ii) The abomination of desolation (singular) set up by Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes" (meaning "God manifest", the epithet Antiochus IV attached to his name) did not result in the destruction of the temple: After he was ousted by the Maccabees, the temple was cleansed, and reconsecrated to God.

The history of Antiochus IV is well documented: Who he was, the way he came to power, which nations he fought wars with, his oppression of the Jews and the way he banned their religious worship, the way he gave himself the epithet to his name of "God manifest" ("Epiphanes"), and placed an idol - a statue of Zeus, "the king of the gods", in the sanctuary of God's temple in Jerusalem, etc.

Although it challenges the eschatology of many Christians determined to assign all biblical prophecy to the "still to be fulfilled" category, the parallels of the history of Antiochus IV with the text in Daniel Chapters 7, 8, 11 & 12 are far too remarkable to be simply brushed aside with the label "coincidence".

In fact, as will be seen in this article, there is a very good reason why Daniel closes Chapter 7 with the statement,

"But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his rulership, to cut off and to destroy until the end.
And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him." (Daniel 7:26-27).

The beasts/kingdoms of Daniel

(I) Lion: Nebuchadnezzar's Babyloniian kingdom.
(II) Bear: Persian kingdom.
(III) Leopard: Greek kingdom

The leopard kingdom divided into four parts after the death of Alexander the Great.

Out of one of these four rose one Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes".

There was an apostasy from the true faith on the part of many Jews during Antiochus IV's reign.

The wording of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (see below) immediately brings to mind two historical characters:

1. Judas Iscariot ("the son of perdition").
2. Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes".

The Type: Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes": Daniel 11
36 And the king shall do according to his will. And he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper until the fury is fulfilled. For that which is decreed shall be done.
37 He will not regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god. For he shall magnify himself above all.

The anti-type: The man of sin: 2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.

The way 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is written takes our minds back to both Judas Iscariot * and to Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes" (Daniel's 4th beast).

The way Daniel's fourth king of the fourth kingdom ("beast") finds his end in both Daniel Chapter 7 and Daniel Chapter 12, takes our minds forward to the latter days kingdom and the return of Christ.

* The only two persons called "the son of perdition" in the New Testament are Judas Iscariot and the man of sin of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4.

So 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is pointing us to both Antiochus IV and Judas Iscariot as the types (forerunners) of the man of sin. (Obviously there are other types or forerunners also: Nebuchadnezzar, Nero in the 1st century, etc - but 2 Thessalonians 2:4 points towards only these two persons).

Daniel 7, 8, 11 & 12 do not speak of the destruction of the temple or the city, but merely of the defilement of the temple by sacrifices to idols and an idol placed in the sanctuary in the latter days of the Seleucid Hellenistic kingdom of Antiochus IV.

Daniel Chapter 7's fourth kingdom ("beast")​

Many Christians misapply Daniel's fourth beast in Daniel Chapter 7 to the Roman Empire, because:

(a) The first three kingdoms represented by an image seen in a prophetic dream by Babylon's king Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel Chapter 2) correspond with at least the first three kingdoms of Daniel's vision; and

(b) Nebuchadnezzar's image seems to move from the Greek Empire (belly and thighs of bronze) to the Roman Empire (legs of iron), and then onto the final Empire of the Revelation.

However, Nebuchadnezzar's prophetic image has 5 parts/kingdoms, whereas Daniel Chapter 7 speaks only of four kingdoms ("beasts"), and the history of Antiochus IV, and the fourth kingdom, despite the denials of many Christians, matches incredibly well.

Also, three kings were indeed uprooted in order for Antiochus IV to rise to power, and this again correlates with history, but there is no mention of three of the ten kings of the Revelation being uprooted, nor of any toes in Nebuchadnezzar's image being removed.

Daniel 8:11; Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11 are referring to the abomination of desolation that was set up in the holy place by Antiochus IV; but Daniel Chapter 12 is also the first part of the prophecy which is complemented by Jesus in Revelation 10:

Daniel 12:7
And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was on the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand to Heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever
that it shall be for a time, times, and a half. And when they have made an end of scattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Revelation 10:5-7
And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth lifted his hand to the heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it,
that there should no longer be time. But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he will begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets.

In Daniel Chapter 12, the final 3.5 years is mentioned. In Revelation Chapter 10 the final 3.5 years has now passed, and the 7th trumpet is about to sound. (Compare the whole of Daniel Chapter 12 with Revelation 10:1-7).

Antiochus IV reigned during the latter days of the Seleucid Hellenistic kingdom.

Notice that Revelation 13:2 is telling us about a coming kingdom ("beast") whose power (or perhaps character) will be a combination of the first three kingdoms mentioned in Daniel Chapter 7 (lion, bear, leopard).

It is prophesied of the "beast" of the Revelation that he will "open his mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those dwelling in Heaven. And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them." (Revelation 13:6-7).

This is exactly what Antiochus IV also did in his day in the latter days of Seleucid Hellenistic kingdom; and so his kingdom (kingdom IV-A of Daniel's Chapter 7's four beasts) is the type (forerunner) of both:

(A) The kingdom ("beast") written about in the Revelation (IV-B); and
(B) The man of sin of 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2.

Speaking as though the kingdom of Antiochus IV is the latter-day kingdom that will be destroyed by Christ before the kingdom is handed over to the saints of the Most High, Daniel thus combines both the kingdom of Antiochus IV and the above (final) kingdom into one prophecy in both Daniel Chapter 7 and Daniel Chapter 12 - showing that the former king/kingdom (IV-A) is the type (forerunner) of the latter (IV-B).

So we have Daniel's fourth beast, Antiochus IV, projecting forward in time to the final kingdom, and vice-versa:

* The way 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is written takes our minds back to both Judas Iscariot ("the son of perdition") and to Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes" (Daniel's 4th beast).
* The way Daniel's fourth beast finds his end in both Daniel Chapter 7 and Daniel Chapter 12, takes our minds forward to the return of Christ.

Notice that this identifies the man of sin of 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 with the beast of Revelation 13:1-10, and suggests that the miracles and lying wonders mentioned as accompanying the coming of the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 are not performed by the man of sin himself, but by the false prophet (the "beast from the earth") in Revelation Chapter 13, and that the man of sin is the same as the beast of Revelation 13:1-10.

The inspiration of God in the wording of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and Daniel chapters 7 & 12's fourth king/kingdom ("beast") is clear, and is amazing.

It's also important to bear this in mind:

(i) Abominations were committed (Daniel 9:26-27) that the text tells us were going to end with the destruction of the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (the temple).

(ii) The abomination of desolation (singular) set up by Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes" Daniel 8:11; Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11) did not result in the destruction of the temple: After he was ousted by the Maccabees, the temple was cleansed, and reconsecrated to God.

So the above passages are not all talking about the same abominations; and Daniel's fourth beast is not talking about the Roman Empire just because the fourth part of the image in Nebuchadnezzar's dream (the legs of iron in Daniel Chapter 2) seems to be speaking about the Roman Empire.

Daniel's fourth beast and its latter days is telling of the latter days of both the Seleucid Hellenistic kingdom of Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes", as well as the latter days kingdom of the beast, and the return of Christ in judgment.

Part II of this article is here

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Question: Why does Daniel Chapter 7 speak as though the latter days of the fourth kingdom is the latter-day kingdom that will be destroyed by Christ before the kingdom is handed over to the saints of the Most High?

Da:2 introduces 4 kingdoms, Da:4 is the head of gold, Da:5-6 is the silver, Da:7 is a different vision that ends up focusing on the iron/clay one. Da:8-9 are about the brass. Rome is the 'little horn' verses, all 500 years of her rule. The iron/clay kingdom (Da:11) doesn't begin until the 5th trump sounds, it lasts as long as the Gospels cover, 3 1/2 years. The return begins with the resurrection of the two witnesses. The 7 vials kill all sinners and the Re:20:4 resurrections are all completed by 6PM of that same day.
Welcome to day1 of the 1,000-year reign

The two witnesses are the whole of the 'remnant' in the closing verses if Re:12. That is the only 'army' needed to make sure Satan does not control Jerusalem for any time but the time they are dead.

Da:8:23:
And in the latter time of their kingdom,
when the transgressors are come to the full,
a king of fierce countenance,
and understanding dark sentences,
shall stand up.

5th trump;
Da:11:3:
And a mighty king shall stand up,
that shall rule with great dominion,
and do according to his will.

42 months later, Satan is sitting on a false throne during that 4 day period:
Da:11:31:
And arms shall stand on his part,
and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength,
and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

 

[Zao is life]

Da:2 introduces 4 kingdoms, Da:4 is the head of gold, Da:5-6 is the silver, Da:7 is a different vision that ends up focusing on the iron/clay one. Da:8-9 are about the brass. Rome is the 'little horn' verses, all 500 years of her rule. The iron/clay kingdom (Da:11) doesn't begin until the 5th trump sounds, it lasts as long as the Gospels cover, 3 1/2 years. The return begins with the resurrection of the two witnesses. The 7 vials kill all sinners and the Re:20:4 resurrections are all completed by 6PM of that same day.
Welcome to day1 of the 1,000-year reign

The two witnesses are the whole of the 'remnant' in the closing verses if Re:12. That is the only 'army' needed to make sure Satan does not control Jerusalem for any time but the time they are dead.

Da:8:23:
And in the latter time of their kingdom,
when the transgressors are come to the full,
a king of fierce countenance,
and understanding dark sentences,
shall stand up.

5th trump;
Da:11:3:
And a mighty king shall stand up,
that shall rule with great dominion,
and do according to his will.

42 months later, Satan is sitting on a false throne during that 4 day period:
Da:11:31:
And arms shall stand on his part,
and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength,
and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 5 is talking to the head of gold, to Belshazzar, the son of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, telling him that his kingdom was going to be defeated by the kings of Persia - the chest and arms of silver of Daniel 2.
Daniel 6 is talking about the same Persian kingdom and Daniel's interaction with its king.
Daniel 7-8 is talking about what my first post spoke about.
Daniel 9 is talking about the release of the Jews from captivity and the coming of Jesus, 490 years after their release.
Daniel 11-12 are talking about the historic events that would lead up to the rise of Antiochus IV, about Antiochus IV and his wars and activities, and about the end of Antiochus IV's kingdom and the beast kingdom of the Revelation.

Daniel 11:3 is talking about the rise of Antiochus IV and the same history will be repeated at the time of the 5th trumpet.

Daniel 11 began in the 2nd century B.C.

History is history. You can't take the Declaration of Independence out of the United States constitution and you can't take Antiochus IV out of Daniel either.

The beast of the Revelation doesn't get to fulfill the prophecies in Daniel. Neither does Babylon the great. The beast of Daniel is Antiochus IV and he got to fulfill the prophecies of Daniel and become the type or forerunner of the beast in the Revelation. Babylon and Persia and Greece and the kingdom of Antiochus IV all got to fulfill the prophecies of Daniel, and Babylon got to become the type or forerunner of Babylon the Great of the Revelation.

 

[DavidPT]

The wording of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (see below) immediately brings to mind two historical characters:

1. Judas Iscariot ("the son of perdition").
2. Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes".

The Type: Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes": Daniel 11
36 And the king shall do according to his will. And he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper until the fury is fulfilled. For that which is decreed shall be done.
37 He will not regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god. For he shall magnify himself above all.

The anti-type: The man of sin: 2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.

The way 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is written takes our minds back to both Judas Iscariot * and to Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes" (Daniel's 4th beast).

The way Daniel's fourth king of the fourth kingdom ("beast") finds his end in both Daniel Chapter 7 and Daniel Chapter 12, takes our minds forward to the latter days kingdom and the return of Christ.

* The only two persons called "the son of perdition" in the New Testament are Judas Iscariot and the man of sin of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4.

So 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is pointing us to both Antiochus IV and Judas Iscariot as the types (forerunners) of the man of sin. (Obviously there are other types or forerunners also: Nebuchadnezzar, Nero in the 1st century, etc - but 2 Thessalonians 2:4 points towards only these two persons).

Daniel 7, 8, 11 & 12 do not speak of the destruction of the temple or the city, but merely of the defilement of the temple by sacrifices to idols and an idol placed in the sanctuary in the latter days of the Seleucid Hellenistic kingdom of Antiochus IV.

Daniel Chapter 7's fourth kingdom ("beast")​

Many Christians misapply Daniel's fourth beast in Daniel Chapter 7 to the Roman Empire, because:

(a) The first three kingdoms represented by an image seen in a prophetic dream by Babylon's king Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel Chapter 2) correspond with at least the first three kingdoms of Daniel's vision; and

(b) Nebuchadnezzar's image seems to move from the Greek Empire (belly and thighs of bronze) to the Roman Empire (legs of iron), and then onto the final Empire of the Revelation.

However, Nebuchadnezzar's prophetic image has 5 parts/kingdoms, whereas Daniel Chapter 7 speaks only of four kingdoms ("beasts"), and the history of Antiochus IV, and the fourth kingdom, despite the denials of many Christians, matches incredibly well.

Also, three kings were indeed uprooted in order for Antiochus IV to rise to power, and this again correlates with history, but there is no mention of three of the ten kings of the Revelation being uprooted, nor of any toes in Nebuchadnezzar's image being removed.

Daniel 8:11; Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11 are referring to the abomination of desolation that was set up in the holy place by Antiochus IV; but Daniel Chapter 12 is also the first part of the prophecy which is complemented by Jesus in Revelation 10:

Daniel 12:7
And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was on the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand to Heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever
that it shall be for a time, times, and a half. And when they have made an end of scattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Revelation 10:5-7
And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth lifted his hand to the heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it,
that there should no longer be time. But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he will begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets.

In Daniel Chapter 12, the final 3.5 years is mentioned. In Revelation Chapter 10 the final 3.5 years has now passed, and the 7th trumpet is about to sound. (Compare the whole of Daniel Chapter 12 with Revelation 10:1-7).

Antiochus IV reigned during the latter days of the Seleucid Hellenistic kingdom.

Notice that Revelation 13:2 is telling us about a coming kingdom ("beast") whose power (or perhaps character) will be a combination of the first three kingdoms mentioned in Daniel Chapter 7 (lion, bear, leopard).

It is prophesied of the "beast" of the Revelation that he will "open his mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those dwelling in Heaven. And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them." (Revelation 13:6-7).

This is exactly what Antiochus IV also did in his day in the latter days of Seleucid Hellenistic kingdom; and so his kingdom (kingdom IV-A of Daniel's Chapter 7's four beasts) is the type (forerunner) of both:

(A) The kingdom ("beast") written about in the Revelation (IV-B); and
(B) The man of sin of 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2.

Speaking as though the kingdom of Antiochus IV is the latter-day kingdom that will be destroyed by Christ before the kingdom is handed over to the saints of the Most High, Daniel thus combines both the kingdom of Antiochus IV and the above (final) kingdom into one prophecy in both Daniel Chapter 7 and Daniel Chapter 12 - showing that the former king/kingdom (IV-A) is the type (forerunner) of the latter (IV-B).

So we have Daniel's fourth beast, Antiochus IV, projecting forward in time to the final kingdom, and vice-versa:

* The way 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is written takes our minds back to both Judas Iscariot ("the son of perdition") and to Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes" (Daniel's 4th beast).
* The way Daniel's fourth beast finds his end in both Daniel Chapter 7 and Daniel Chapter 12, takes our minds forward to the return of Christ.

Notice that this identifies the man of sin of 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 with the beast of Revelation 13:1-10, and suggests that the miracles and lying wonders mentioned as accompanying the coming of the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 are not performed by the man of sin himself, but by the false prophet (the "beast from the earth") in Revelation Chapter 13, and that the man of sin is the same as the beast of Revelation 13:1-10.

The inspiration of God in the wording of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and Daniel chapters 7 & 12's fourth king/kingdom ("beast") is clear, and is amazing.

It's also important to bear this in mind:

(i) Abominations were committed (Daniel 9:26-27) that the text tells us were going to end with the destruction of the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (the temple).

(ii) The abomination of desolation (singular) set up by Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes" Daniel 8:11; Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11) did not result in the destruction of the temple: After he was ousted by the Maccabees, the temple was cleansed, and reconsecrated to God.

So the above passages are not all talking about the same abominations; and Daniel's fourth beast is not talking about the Roman Empire just because the fourth part of the image in Nebuchadnezzar's dream (the legs of iron in Daniel Chapter 2) seems to be speaking about the Roman Empire.

Daniel's fourth beast and its latter days is telling of the latter days of both the Seleucid Hellenistic kingdom of Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes", as well as the latter days kingdom of the beast, and the return of Christ in judgment.

I don't really have an issue with A4E being a type, based on what we know about him according to Maccabees, but not based on what we allegedly know about him per the book of Daniel, though. And the following are some reasons why.

Take Daniel 12, for instance. 13 verses total. What do we not see a single mention of in the first 10 verses? What is recorded in verse 11. Therefore, it is only logical that verse 11 is in regards to something already mentioned in a previous chapter or chapters. The fact verse 11 involves the era of time verse 1 in Daniel 12 is, and that the era of time verse 1 is involving, this is a followed by a resurrection of the dead, this then tells us that verse 11 is connected with the end of days in this present age. The reason we know verse 11 is involving the same era of time verse 1 is, is by comparing with Matthew 24:15-21, for one. Both accounts involve an AOD, and during this AOD, both accounts involve a time of unequaled trouble. And since there can't be two different unequaled time of trouble, both accounts are involving the same events.

Where else do we see anything resembling what verse 11 is pertaining to? In Daniel 11 of course. Not only do we see in that chapter what verse 11 is pertaining to, we also see in that chapter what verse 10 is pertaining to.

Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

A key phrase in verse 35 is "time of the end". That same phrase is found in the following passages.

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end : because it is yet for a time appointed.

Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end : many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till time of the end.

This tells us a number of things. According to Daniel 12:9---for the words are closed up and sealed till time of the end.
Which then logically has to include the vision involving Daniel 8:17 the fact that verse indicates the time of the end is when that vision is, and that Daniel 12:9 indicates that the words are closed up and sealed till time of the end. Therefore, based on this alone it is not remotely reasonable that the little horn is meaning A4E in Daniel 8. The only way it could be, the time of the end was meaning during the days of A4E, which then means the words were no longer closed up and sealed during A4E's days. I don't find that reasonable at all. Someone else might but I certainly don't.

And if a vile person in Daniel 11 is meaning this same little horn in Daniel 8, but that the little horn can't be meaning A4E though, since that would contradict Daniel 12:9, then neither can a vile person in Daniel 11 be A4E since that would contradict that Daniel 8 along with Daniel 12:9 proves A4E can't be the little horn in Daniel 8, so how can he then be a vile person in Daniel 11 if a vile person and the little horn are one and the same?

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Daniel 5 is talking to the head of gold, to Belshazzar, the son of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, telling him that his kingdom was going to be defeated by the kings of Persia - the chest and arms of silver of Daniel 2.
Daniel 6 is talking about the same Persian kingdom and Daniel's interaction with its king.
Daniel 7-8 is talking about what my first post spoke about.
Daniel 9 is talking about the release of the Jews from captivity and the coming of Jesus, 490 years after their release.
Daniel 11-12 are talking about the historic events that would lead up to the rise of Antiochus IV, about Antiochus IV and his wars and activities, and about the end of Antiochus IV's kingdom and the beast kingdom of the Revelation.

Daniel 11:3 is talking about the rise of Antiochus IV and the same history will be repeated at the time of the 5th trumpet.

Daniel 11 began in the 2nd century B.C.

History is history. You can't take the Declaration of Independence out of the United States constitution and you can't take Antiochus IV out of Daniel either.

The beast of the Revelation doesn't get to fulfill the prophecies in Daniel. Neither does Babylon the great. The beast of Daniel is Antiochus IV and he got to fulfill the prophecies of Daniel and become the type or forerunner of the beast in the Revelation. Babylon and Persia and Greece and the kingdom of Antiochus IV all got to fulfill the prophecies of Daniel, and Babylon got to become the type or forerunner of Babylon the Great of the Revelation.

Neb's son is the 3rd rib in Da:7.
Here is the longer version:
The Iron-Clay Kingdom.docx, The Brass Kingdom with Rome included.docx

 

[Zao is life]

I don't really have an issue with A4E being a type, based on what we know about him according to Maccabees, but not based on what we allegedly know about him per the book of Daniel, though. And the following are some reasons why.

Take Daniel 12, for instance. 13 verses total. What do we not see a single mention of in the first 10 verses?

The prophecy in Genesis 37:9 was a prophecy about Joseph, but actually it was a prophecy about Jesus.

What you read about in Genesis 37:9 happened - to Joseph. But it happened to Jesus after He was given a name above all names so that at the name of Jesus ever knee should bow ..

Joseph's life and suffering an exaltation was a prophecy.

What you read about in Daniel 12:7 happened in Antiochus' day. Antiochus IV scattered the power of the holy people. Not sure when the temple was defiled and if it lasted 3.5 years after the temple was defiled, but it will happen again. Two blokes are getting knocked down with one stroke in one apocalypse which is prophetic. Which is why we see the same thing that's written in Daniel 12:7, written almost word-for-word again in Revelation 10:5-7.

Daniel wrote before the time of Antiochus IV. When Daniel wrote, both the kingdom of Antiochus and the end of this age were in the future.

Daniel 12:1-10 is talking about the antitype, not the type. But parts are also talking about the type. Genesis 37:9 was talking about Jesus. But actually it was talking about Joseph.

Read further down because I'm going to explain to you what a "Markan Sandwich" is and give you examples of how prevalent they are in scripture. But first also note that this isn't the only type/antitype in Daniel. Nebuchadnezzar's image (Daniel 3) is a type of the image of the beast. The burning, fiery furnace is a type of the great tribulation.

Nebuchadnezzar calling the faithful remnant to come out of the furnace: "Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, servants of the most high God, come forth and come here." (Daniel 3:26 is a type of this:

"And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them." (Revelation 11:12)

- except that in the type, it was the king who had thrown them into the furnace who was calling them out of the furnace, because he saw the Son of man was walking amidst them in the furnace, and they were unharmed.

The exact details of how things unfold when the time for the antitype comes is NEVER exactly the same as in the type. Jesus was not sold to an Egyptian ruler, nor falsely accused and locked in a dungeon in Egypt, nor brought out by Pharaoh and exalted above all by Pharaoh so that it was declared of Him wherever He went in Egypt: "Bow the knee".

Yet Joseph is a key type of Jesus (there are others).

What is recorded in verse 11. Therefore, it is only logical that verse 11 is in regards to something already mentioned in a previous chapter or chapters.

Daniel 8:11; Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11 are referring to the abomination of desolation that was set up in the holy place by Antiochus IV; but Daniel Chapter 12 is also the first part of the prophecy which is complemented by Jesus in Revelation 10.

Daniel 12:11 is what scholars recognized in the gospel of Mark and called it a "Markan Sandwich", where the author begins talking about one thing, then talks about another, and then suddenly reverts to talking about the first thing in the middle of talking about the 2nd thing - and the prophets and Psalms and Proverbs are SATURATED with Markan Sandwiches - but I'll shorten it by giving you just two examples:

1. Compare the mention of the Valley of Jezreel in Hosea 1:4 & 5 with the sudden return to the same mention of the Valley of Jezreel in the last sentence of Hosea 1:11.

It makes no sense in Hosea 1:11 in the light of the rest of the verse UNLESS your eye is trained to pick up the hundreds of examples of "Markan Sanwiches" in biblical scripture.

2. Compare the restoration of Israel & Judah to God and the land of their fathers in Ezekiel 36:16-38 and then see how the prophet returns to this very same topic and repeats it in Ezekiel 39:23-29, where the context of what he had just been speaking about, is the judgment of Gog & Magog who had come against Israel and Judah SUBSEQUENT to the mentioned restoration.

This is exact same thing that you see in Revelation 12. It suddenly returns to the previous topic in a place which is just as completely "out of place" from most of Daniel 12 as the two examples I gave you in Hosea and Ezekiel.

The fact verse 11 involves the era of time verse 1 in Daniel 12 is, ..

No it doesn't involve the era of verse 1 just because it appears in Daniel 12. It's a "Markan Sandwich". It's also oscillating, the way Isaiah oscillates between one subject and another and keeps doing back-to-the-past and then back-to-the-future, all the way through his book: talking about the house of Israel the one minute, the house of Judah the next, back to Israel, then to Babylon, then going to the way distant future after Babylon has destroyed Jerusalem, and suddenly back to before Babylon even came to power. He even speaks about "the time of the end" of our age in-between in places.

There's this Markan Sandwich stype oscillating going on in the prophetic books - some to a greater extent than others (Isaiah does this all the time).

And besides this, whenever there is a type and an antitype in scripture, the details surrounding the events associated with the antitype has never, ever been the exact same details as in the type. Jesus did not go into slavery in Egypt.

Daniel 12:11 is talking about what Daniel 8:11 and Daniel 11:31 are talking about. Different time-period: Antiochus' time-period - but that doesn't mean the rest of the chapter is also talking about that same time-period.

An apocalypse (Daniel is also an apocalypse) is to do with the unveiling of the realities that are being spoken about and that will come to pass - it's never, never merely a chronological series of predictions about the future.

.. and that the era of time verse 1 is involving, this is a followed by a resurrection of the dead, ..

Right.

.. this then tells us that verse 11 is connected with the end of days in this present age.

No - back-to-the-past, then back-to-the-future, Markan Sandwich style, oscillating between the one and the other, the way only the prophets do (actually the Proverbs and the Psalmists often do it too).

The details of the antitype (the AOD to come) are not going to be exactly the same as the details of the type (AOD of Antiochus IV). But God is is inspiring Daniel to write, and using Antiochus IV and his coming kingdom (which was still coming when Daniel was writing) to tell us also about the coming antichrist and his kingdom. It's an apcoalypse.

Neither are the details of the image of the beast to come the same as the type in Daniel 3. Same thing, but with different blokes, and different strokes - no one is going to be thrown into a burning, fiery furnace when the antitype of the Nebuchadnezzar's image of the beast happens

- from what Revelation 20:4-6 says, it appears they will be beheaded for refusing to worship the beast,

and no one will come out of a burning fiery furnace (great tribulation being the antitype) - they will be resurrected from the dead.

The reason we know verse 11 is involving the same era of time verse 1 is, is by comparing with Matthew 24:15-21, for one.

Again, different eons, different blokes, different strokes, and a different temple.

The abomination of Daniel 12:11 (the type) is the same abomination spoken of in Daniel 8:11 and Daniel 11:31, and it was sacrifices to the gods in the temple (instead of to God), culminating in a statue of Zeus placed in the sanctuary by Antiochus IV.

The antitype is the New Testament temple, and the idol is the man of sin himself.

Both accounts involve an AOD, and during this AOD, both accounts involve a time of unequaled trouble.

When the first time came, the trouble that came upon the faithful remnant was unequaled.

When the time for the antitype arrives, the trouble that will come upon (us?) will be unequaled - so even worse than the first time, just as Matthew 24:15-22 says.

Where else do we see anything resembling what verse 11 is pertaining to? In Daniel 11 of course. Not only do we see in that chapter what verse 11 is pertaining to, we also see in that chapter what verse 10 is pertaining to.

Exactly.

There's going to be this type of confusion until such time as the saints start understanding the nature of an apocalypse, and understanding the "Markan Sandwich" style of writing that all the apocalyptic books and Psalms and Proverbs and even epistles like Mark are saturated with,

and also understanding the difference between the house of Israel/Ephraim and the house of Judah (compare what is said about Judah in Hosea 1:7 to what is said about Israel in Hosea 1:6, for example

- and there are many, many examples like Hosea 1:6-7 in the prophets who prophesied about both groups, like Isaiah also did. Except that the references to each Israelite nation are verses or paragraphs or chapters apart in most cases, unlike Hosea 1:6-7

Daniel 12:11 is a Markan Sandwich. It doesn't belong there but it's not out of place in terms of the way the prophets and even Mark in his gospel wrote.

Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate ..

Compare the style of writing with Ezekiel 36:16-38 and Ezekiel 39:23-29.

Also remember that the apocalypse of Daniel (because that's what it is) is talking about both the kingdom of Antiochus IV and the kingdom of the antichrist, and about the time of THE END of the kingdom of Antiochus IV and the time of THE END of the kingdom of the antichrist, and is also talking about how all this affects God's people - whether then, or "then", with the second "then" coming in a completely different eon to the one Daniel lived in, let alone different century.

YET, though Daniel is talking about two different eons and two different blokes, he's wrapping it all up in one and the same prophecy - and that's because it's an apocalypse - an unveiling. It's quite a feat. I doubt any other religious books attain to such a masterpiece of literature even once, let alone over and over and over again.

The biblical prophetic books are never (not ever) merely a series of chronological predictions about the future. Push chronology out of your mind, and read only the deails, asking if it's talking about the one or the other, or both. Did Jesus talk about the destruction of city and temple in the "Olivet Discourse"?

Yes.

Did Jesus talk about the great tribulation and the end of this age and His return in the Oliver Discourse?

Yes.

Was Daniel writing about Antiochus IV and his kingdom and about the end of his kingdom?

Yes.

Was Daniel writing about the antichrist and his kingdom and the end of his kingdom?

Yes.

There's a peculiar, unique style of writing in the Bible that is far superior than you will ever find in any other literature. And it almost always includes:

1. Osicllating between the one person/time-period/topic and the other, using Markan Sandwiches.
2. A great deal of metaphor in some books (Isaiah being just one of them).
3. It often includes knocking down two different blokes with the same stroke. Like Daniel is doing with Antiochus IV and the coming antichrist.

 

[Zao is life]

A key phrase in verse 35 is "time of the end".

.. and it shouldn't surprise you, because that's the second main part of the theme - the activities of THIS particular type and antitype, i.e Antiochus IV and the antichrist (remember that Pharaoh was the prototype in the days of the Exodus), and also the end of the kingdom of both the type, and of the antitype.

We are NOT given all the details of the coming man of sin in Daniel - the DETAILS of Antiochus IV's wars (the king of the South, the king of the North, etc) are not going to happen again in our time - certainly not with the exact same details and exact same peoples/nations (maybe and even probably virtually the exact same geographic territories - and maybe not).

We must never guess, and so that we don't guess, we must understand what we are being told, and what we are not being told. The wars and battles described in Daniel 8 & 11 are those that Antiochus IV engaged in, the antichrist will not be doing the exact same things. The antichrist is the antitype, not the type. Jesus is the antitype of Joseph. He never went into slavery in Egypt, got locked in a dungeon, etc. But Joseph's prophetic dream about the sun, moon and stars bowing down to him refers as much to Jesus as it does to Joseph.

So that is why the rest of your post expresses what isn't making sense to you - because you're trying to see which details belong in the first kingdom and which in the second, and not recognizing the oscillating and Markan Sandwiches going on in Daniel 12.

That same phrase is found in the following passages.
Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

The time of the end - times 2. Because it goes around and comes back again.

Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end : because it is yet for a time appointed.

Both times. It happened the first time and it will most likely come around again in the same way but with different details viz the events that surround it - some will fall. Did Peter fall? Was he purged?

Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Fulfilled by Antiochus IV. Won't be repeated by the antichrist. Why should it? The antichrist has a much bigger one-world stage than Antiochus IV had.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end : many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till time of the end.

Maybe those words were closed up and sealed between the time Daniel was given the prophecy (which was more than a hundred years before), and the time of Antiochus IV's persecution, or maybe they were closed up and sealed until the very end of his kingdom - and that was B.C.

But there are things closed up and sealed that have been sealed since the late 1st century also (Revelation 10: the seven thunders' voices). So maybe those sealed things Daniel wrote about are still sealed and are the same as the things the 7 thunders uttered, maybe not.

We are never told everything. Never. The proof of this lies in the very fact that it is said that things would be sealed in two passages which speak of the time of the antichrist - Daniel 12 projecting forward to the end of this age even while the very same passage is repeating what was already said about the AOD of Antiochus Epiphanes - and Revelation 10 being about what is about to happen when the antitype of Antiochus IV has risen from the pit.

Think of how the earth rotates. Where are we now in our orbit? Where will we be next year at the exact same time on the exact same day in our orbit? It goes around and comes back again - but the earth is never in exactly the same position relative to the sun as it was 365.333 days ago. Ask astronomers why. I don't know. But I know there is a small degree of change and after x amount of hundreds or thousands of years the cycle comes back again to exactly the same position we're in relative to the sun right now.

The details of the events in an apocalypse (the prophetic details) will never be exactly the same when things have gone around and come back again. But the spiritual reality will be the same.

And if a vile person in Daniel 11 is meaning this same little horn in Daniel 8, but that the little horn can't be meaning A4E though, since that would contradict Daniel 12:9,

No it wouldn't contradict Daniel 12:9, because one apocalypse ("prophecy") has got two different blokes covered. It's better than insurance. And that insurance clause in 12:9 is in any case probably referring to bloke #1, because the lawyer used the Markan Sandwich rule again that the prophets are saturated with when he wrote clause 12:9 into the prophecy. He's a sneaky guy. Sharks won't eat him if he swims in the ocean out of professional courtesy and all that.

But clause #12:9 could also be referring to bloke #2. We don't know yet. AND maybe it referred to bloke #1 (the type) AND it refers to bloke #2 (the antitype). We don't know yet.

Don't look at the trees so much. Look at the wood.

 

[Douggg]

Many Christians misapply Daniel's fourth beast in Daniel Chapter 7 to the Roman Empire, because:

The 69th week ended when Jesus was crucified and the Roman Empire in charge.

Then 2000 years - time of the Gentiles - occupying the land of Israel.

Now we are in the end times, latter days, the Roman Empire is in the form of the EU. The Antichrist will come from that part of the world. i.e. of the people who destroyed the temple and sanctuary. Could be Zelensky. Too early to tell for certain.

 

[5thKingdom]

Question: Why does Daniel Chapter 7 speak as though the latter days of the fourth kingdom is the latter-day kingdom that will be destroyed by Christ before the kingdom is handed over to the saints of the Most High?

Daniel 7 shows the Fourth Beast on earth

(1) also shown as the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
(2) also shown as the Revelation Beast
(3) also shown as the RULE of the Anti-Christ (Little Horn, False Prophet, Man of Sin)
(4) also shown as Satan's "Little Season"

It would be ridicuolus to think the EVENTS in Daniel 7
are not shown in OTHER SCRIPTURES.
How silly.


--------


Daniel 7 shows the Fourth Beast as

(1) Ten "Kings" and Ten "Horns" [Dan 7]
(2) Ten "Kings" and Ten "Horns" [Rev 17]
(3) Ten "Kings" and Ten "Toes" [Dan 2:44]
(4) Ten "Virgins"


It would be ridiculous to think the PEOPLE in Daniel 7
are not shown in OTHER SCRIPTURES.
How silly.


/

 

[Zao is life]

The 69th week ended when Jesus was crucified and the Roman Empire in charge.

Then 2000 years - time of the Gentiles - occupying the land of Israel.

Now we are in the end times, latter days, the Roman Empire is in the form of the EU. The Antichrist will come from that part of the world. i.e. of the people who destroyed the temple and sanctuary. Could be Zelensky. Too early to tell for certain.

Off topic Dougg. This isn't about Daniel 9. In any case, the Messiah was cut off (crucified) after the 69th week. I don't say so. Daniel 9:26 says so.

 

[Zao is life]

Neb's son is the 3rd rib in Da:7.
Here is the longer version:
The Iron-Clay Kingdom.docx, The Brass Kingdom with Rome included.docx

It was Prince Harry.
Here's the longer version:

I'm sure there are quite a few others here who can offer their own guesses too.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

It was Prince Harry.
Here's the longer version:

I'm sure there are quite a few others here who can offer their own guesses too.

Here is the short version of my reply.
Click.

 

[Zao is life]

Here is the short version of my reply.
Click.

I did click.

Now click here.

@Wayne 59 Daniel 2's head of gold, chest & arms of silver, belly and thighs of bronze = Daniel 7's 1st, 2nd and 3rd beast.

But Daniel 2's legs of iron are not the same as Daniel's 7's fourth kingdom, which was the kingdom of Antiochus IV, who is a type of the antichrist as per Daniel 12.

Neither are the ten kings of Daniel 2's iron and clay feet the same as the 10 kings of Daniel's fourth beast - none of the last days kings at the end of this age will be uprooted. That's was 3 of the 10 kings of the Seleucid kingdom who were uprooted when Antiochus IV (Daniel 7's fourth beast) rose to power.

Even though Antiochus is a type of the antichrist, 3 of the 10 kings of the antichrist's kingdom will not be uprooted again. None of the ten kings of the Revelation get to be uprooted in order to make way for the antichrist. All ten are of one mind and will willingly hand their power and authority over to him.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Your posts will no longer be showing up in my browser.
Post all you want.

 

[5thKingdom]

But Daniel 2's legs of iron are not the same as Daniel's 7's fourth kingdom, which was the kingdom of Antiochus IV, who is a type of the antichrist as per Daniel 12.

That's funny because the Bible PROMISES the Truth about Daniel's Fourth Kingdom would remain "closed-up" and "sealed"
to all Saints (even Daniel did not understand - Dan 12:8) until the Last Saints "shall understand" at the "Time-of-the-End"
[Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10]


The notion that Antiochus IV fulfilled any part of Daniel's prophecies MUST BE WRONG because the notion was developed
while the Bible PROMISES the Truth remained "closed-up" and "sealed"


Of course... if you want to REJECT the Word of God in Daniel 12:4 and 12:8-10 then you could pretend
that OLD INTERPRETATIONS might be true. But REJECTING the Word of God and intentionally ignoring
contradicting Scripture in order to protect your favored eschatology is a fools game.
Good luck with that.


/

 

[Zao is life]

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end : because it is yet for a time appointed.

Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end : many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till time of the end.

This tells us a number of things. According to Daniel 12:9---for the words are closed up and sealed till time of the end.

Which then logically has to include the vision involving Daniel 8:17 the fact that verse indicates the time of the end is when that vision is, and that Daniel 12:9 indicates that the words are closed up and sealed till time of the end.

Therefore, based on this alone it is not remotely reasonable that the little horn is meaning A4E in Daniel 8.

The only way it could be, the time of the end was meaning during the days of A4E, which then means the words were no longer closed up and sealed during A4E's days. I don't find that reasonable at all. Someone else might but I certainly don't.

I don't see a problem at all with the end of the fourth kingdom being the time of BOTH the end of Antiochus IV's kingdom AND the end of the Revelation's beast's kingdom. The prophecy covers both kings and both kingdoms.

The latter king will not fulfill the things in the prophecy that the first king fulfilled, and the first king will not fulfill the things that the latter king will fulfill. They don't even live in the same eon let alone time-period. How could they?

The end of the former kingdom (the type) may very well have partly revealed what the end of the latter kingdom (the antitype) will reveal in full (Revelation 10:7).

I really don't see why this would disprove Daniel's fourth beast being linked to both Antiochus IV and the antichrist.

Which brings me to this point:

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Bear in mind firstly that the Day of Atonement is the mid-point of any (and every) seven-year cycle.

I don't know if you are aware that 1,260, 1,290 and 1,335 days are linked to either the first or second half of a seven year cycles in the 49-year shmita cycles,

and the fact that extra days needed to be added every so often (not sure exactly when or after how many years) to allow the lunar calendar to catch up with the solar calendar? Otherwise the seasons and planting and harvest times, which are linked to the biblical calendar, will be way out after x amount of years (not sure how many).

Adding days to the first half or the second half of a seven-year cycle allowed the lunar calendar (the biblical calendar) to catch up with the solar calendar (but it's not needed in every single seven-year cycle).

As far as I know the Jews in Israel still add extra days to their calendar every so often to allow it to keep up with the solar calendar, though the method may be different to what it was in Old Testament times.

Christian Gedge goes into detail about how the 1,290 and 1,335 days are linked to this adding of days to the calendar in his book "The Atonement Clock". An excellent read.

So the 1,290 and 1,335 days would (probably) have told those Jews who actually believed the Word of God what year the temple was going to be defiled by Antiochus IV.

By the time it happened, the Jews who were awake to the prophecies (those who even knew about Daniel's prophecies) would have been awake to what was going on - but most Jews were not following the faith handed down to them by that time, but had fully Hellenized. So only the remnant would have been awake to what was going on and been able to work out the dates, given what Daniel wrote about the 1.290 days and the 1,335 days.

.. and they would have expected that after Antiochus IV's kingdom came to an end, that God would set up a kingdom that would not be destroyed, and the kingdom would be given to the saints of the Most High - in the same way that the apostles asked Jesus if he was going to restore the kingdom to Israel just before He ascended into heaven - but instead of Him answering that question, seconds before He ascended into heaven Jesus reminded them of what He had told them just 42 days earlier - that the gospel would be preached in all the world before the end would come, and THEY were responsible for preaching it.

So possibly (easily possible) some of what was sealed was revealed when the end of Antiochus IV's kingdom came - but we will have to wait till after the 6th trumpet has sounded for whatever the 7 thunders uttered to be made known.

Maybe what was sealed in Daniel's time is part of it.

It was the end time of the kingdom of Judea less than 300 years later. What about that "time of the end"? No sealed mysteries revealed then either.

I don't understand why not knowing what those sealed mysteries of Daniel entailed, or whether they were unsealed or partly unsealed and the rest will be unsealed at the time of the end of the antichrist's kingdom (or whatever) would make any difference to the fact that Daniel's fourth kingdom was the final Seleucid Hellenist kingdom of Antiochus IV, and is the type of the kingdom of the antichrist that is coming.

 

[Douggg]

Off topic Dougg. This isn't about Daniel 9. In any case, the Messiah was cut off (crucified) after the 69th week. I don't say so. Daniel 9:26 says so.

I don't think I was off topic because you were speaking about the Daniel 7 and the kingdom in power when the latter days prophecies take place.

I was pointing out that the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7, the Roman Empire, was in power when Jesus was crucified.

Then were was a break in counting of the weeks to account for the time of the gentiles, until prophecy of the latter days take place. It is just historical facts, Jerusalem is now back in the hands of the Jews.

Which, to comply with Daniel 7, the Roman Empire, the fourth kingdom, will again be in power - which the little horn person and the ten kings emerge out of. The Roman Empire in the end times takes the form of the EU.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

I don't think I was off topic because you were speaking about the Daniel 7 and the kingdom in power when the latter days prophecies take place.

I was pointing out that the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7, the Roman Empire, was in power when Jesus was crucified.

Then were was a break in counting of the weeks to account for the time of the gentiles, until prophecy of the latter days take place. It is just historical facts, Jerusalem is now back in the hands of the Jews.

Which, to comply with Daniel 7, the Roman Empire, the fourth kingdom, will again be in power - which the little horn person and the ten kings emerge out of. The Roman Empire in the end times takes the form of the EU.

The brass in Da:7 is the leopard verse, the 4th kingdom is the iron/clay from Da:2.

Da:7:4:
The first was like a lion,
and had eagle's wings:
I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked,
and it was lifted up from the earth,
and made stand upon the feet as a man,
and a man's heart was given to it.

Neb as the head of gold.

Da:7:5:
And behold another beast,
a second,
like to a bear,
and it raised up itself on one side,
and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it:
and they said thus unto it,
Arise,
devour much flesh.

Darius and Cyrus from the silver, the 3rd rib is Neb's son that lost Neb's kingdom

Da:7:6:
After this I beheld,
and lo another,
like a leopard,
which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl;
the beast had also four heads;
and dominion was given to it.

Brass where Greece is scattered and Rome become a great dominion by ruling over Jerusalem for 500 years.

Da:7:7:
After this I saw in the night visions,
and behold a fourth beast,
dreadful and terrible,
and strong exceedingly;
and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces,
and stamped the residue with the feet of it:
and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it;
and it had ten horns.

Iron/clay where iron are fallen angels from Ge:6 and clay are 10 men that are given kingdoms within an hour of being with the Beast from the Pit.
Starts 42 months before His return on the day He resurrects the two witnesses and then does 'other things'.

 

[Zao is life]

I don't think I was off topic because you were speaking about the Daniel 7 and the kingdom in power when the latter days prophecies take place.

I was pointing out that the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7, the Roman Empire, was in power when Jesus was crucified.

Then were was a break in counting of the weeks to account for the time of the gentiles, until prophecy of the latter days take place. It is just historical facts, Jerusalem is now back in the hands of the Jews.

Which, to comply with Daniel 7, the Roman Empire, the fourth kingdom, will again be in power - which the little horn person and the ten kings emerge out of. The Roman Empire in the end times takes the form of the EU.

Well the Roman Empire was the legs of iron. Two legs and 'coincidentally'? the Roman Empire split into the Western half and the Eastern part in the 4th century A.D. The feet are of part iron and part clay and Daniel is given two reasons for this: There will be a mixing of the seed of men in the final kingdom that will not adhere to one another so the final kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle.

But though like you I used to believe that the 4th beast of Daniel was also the Roman Empire because the first three empires correspond to the first three empires represented by the image in Daniel 2, I don't believe it anymore. I think it is a mistake to believe the 4th kingdom/beast in Daniel 7 also represents the Roman Empire that is represented by the legs of iron in the image of Daniel 2.

It was always very confusing because according to the text of Daniel 7 the 4th beast was supposed to be defeated by Christ and destroyed in the burning flame and the everlasting Kingdom of Christ was supposed to replace it and be inherited by the saints. But it makes total sense to me now for the reasons I gave in my first post here.

 

[Douggg]

Well the Roman Empire was the legs of iron. Two legs and 'coincidentally'? the Roman Empire split into the Western half and the Eastern part in the 4th century A.D. The feet are of part iron and part clay and Daniel is given two reasons for this: There will be a mixing of the seed of men in the final kingdom that will not adhere to one another so the final kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle.

But though like you I used to believe that the 4th beast of Daniel was also the Roman Empire because the first three empires correspond to the first three empires represented by the image in Daniel 2, I don't believe it anymore. I think it is a mistake to believe the 4th kingdom/beast in Daniel 7 also represents the Roman Empire that is represented by the legs of iron in the image of Daniel 2.

It was always very confusing because according to the text of Daniel 7 the 4th beast was supposed to be defeated by Christ and destroyed in the burning flame and the everlasting Kingdom of Christ was supposed to replace it and be inherited by the saints. But it makes total sense to me now for the reasons I gave in my first post here.

At some point, to recognize that the prophecies are being fulfilled - real people are going to have to be identified as the ten kings (leaders) and the little horn. I have my eye on Zelenesky as the little horn - maybe. Too early to tell7 for certain.

Do you have any candidates, yet ?