There is no Rapture

[JulieB67]

notice you failed to put the rest of what Paul teaches about not being appointed that day because we belong to the day not the night so our appointment is salvation which again is a different time and season

I didn't feel the need to to explain what I was talking about but I can go on.

Paul is telling them he has no need to write about the times and seasons (the event of chapter 4, remember no chapters this was an actual letter he had written to them)

He states they know "perfectly well that the day of the Lord (event of chapter 4) he's continuing the subject not changing one.

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

I Thessalonians 5:5 "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

How do we not let that day overtake us as a thief? We watch

I Thessalonians 5:6 "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

I Thessalonians 5:7 "For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night."

What to we watch for? The signs and seasons that Christ laid out in the gospels.

And again, Paul in his second letter addresses what must happen as well before his "coming" We either have to heed those warnings or not if it happens in our generation.


We are not appointed to wrath but we are to know the times and seasons that Christ laid out in the gospels. Rapture is not one of them. And tribulation is not the same thing as God's wrath.

The 'whole left behind thing is backwards. We want to remain in the "field". We are not to be the first one "taken" Taken in that verse does not mean removed from the earth in a rapture to heaven. It means taken as in associating oneself with. As in taken "in" Which is where the apostasy comes in. Anyone waiting on the Christ first is in danger be taken out of season to the fake one. And it's because people would rather believe the lie than accept the love of the truth.

I don't think we'll agree. But again, if I thought it were biblical I would certainly believe. But I find it nowhere in scriptures that Christ returns 2 more times.

 

[dfw69]

I didn't feel the need to to explain what I was talking about but I can go on.

Thank you for your reply sister

Paul is telling them he has no need to write about the times and seasons (the event of chapter 4, remember no chapters this was an actual letter he had written to them)

Do you see that there is more than one time and season ? There are 3 times and seasons but yes it’s seems obvious that Paul taught them the times and seasons

In contrast to when Jesus said to his disciples it not for you to know the times and seasons in acts 1:7 because that was hidden to them at that time

Actually he mentioned the day of the lord first but later in the same chapter says we are not appointed that day we are appointed salvation 1 thes 5:9

And as I mentioned before though they knew what Paul had taught them perfectly they still needed Paul to correct their fear’s because in the second letter they were afraid and thought the day of the lord was taking place and they had miss the rapture

He states they know "perfectly well that the day of the Lord (event of chapter 4) he's continuing the subject not changing one.

Yes

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Referring to the false messianic age
And Jerusalem at peace
And isreal travail who is about to give birth to the manchild

I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

See we are not appointed that day of the lord we are appointed salvation Paul says put on the helmet of salvation the hope of salvation that we are appointed 1 thes 5:10 and 1 thes 5:8 are rapture scriptures

Do you see this truth?

I Thessalonians 5:5 "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

Amen

How do we not let that day overtake us as a thief? We watch

I Thessalonians 5:6 "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

We are warn not to fall away into the night

I Thessalonians 5:7 "For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night."

Yes

What to we watch for? The signs and seasons that Christ laid out in the gospels.

Watch for his coming to bring us salvation and watch for the wiles of the devil also watch so that we do not fall asleep and become like those that are without light and walk in darkness and are asleep to the things that Christ has for us

And again, Paul in his second letter addresses what must happen as well before his "coming" We either have to heed those warnings or not if it happens in our generation.

Not true for them in their day nor is that true for us …

We are not appointed to wrath but we are to know the times and seasons that Christ laid out in the gospels. Rapture is not one of them. And tribulation is not the same thing as God's wrath.

I disagree there are 3 harvest in the times and seasons sis. the first is the barley harvest . Jesus was the first fruit of that harvest we are the completion of that harvest in the near future. this is the rapture

Then there is the wheat harvest in the summer for Jews and non Jews during the false Messianic age the wheat are Christ the tares are of the devil this takes place in the summer harvest

Then comes the grape harvest in the fall

The 'whole left behind thing is backwards.

I don’t believe in the left behind series either

We want to remain in the "field". We are not to be the first one "taken" Taken in that verse does not mean removed from the earth in a rapture to heaven. It means taken as in associating oneself with. As in taken "in" Which is where the apostasy comes in.

No sis the teaching of 2 in the field one taken one left happens at a specific time and season in which the tares are gathered up and burn and yes they are taken away from the earth, because of false doctrine? perhaps

But this scripture is never about the rapture this is about separation of the tares from the wheat during the wheat harvest

The barley harvest will have been harvested many many years before this takes place

And those that remain will be gathered to Jerusalem under Christ for he will send his angels and gather them up to receive their inheritance as promised to the Jews

Anyone waiting on the Christ first is in danger be taken out of season to the fake one. And it's because people would rather believe the lie than accept the love of the truth.

Actually sis it’s the opposite Jesus said preach while it is day, the night comes when no man can preach , if you fail to make the rapture, you will be in the night and will have to face the false messianic age and tribulations because preaching jesus will not be tolerated

I don't think we'll agree. But again, if I thought it were biblical I would certainly believe. But I find it nowhere in scriptures that Christ returns 2 more times.

I see it in scripture as plain as day sis

 

[Timtofly]

Correction 1: Not every mortal will make it to Armageddon, remember that women are not included in the army the Beast takes to Armageddon. Only those at Armageddon are killed, therefore, those who didn't make the journey will survive. They are the mortals that will live and repopulate the earth during the millennium. It is their offspring spiritually referred to as "Gog and Magog", that Satan gathers after his release from prison to surround the camp of the saints, see Rev 19:7-8.

Correction 2: There's no scriptural support that those who heed the warning to flee into protection in Pela (Rev 12:6 &14) for 3.5 years died before the Lord returns.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

I have underlined the salient points - if they are no longer physically alive as you claimed, why would they be fed and nourished throughout that timescale?

That is not the point I was making.

None of the OT are resurrected until after the Millennium. None of the church are resurrected until after the Millennium.

The only ones alive are Christians, not the lost. God does not protect the lost, but only the redeemed. These people never die, but live in Adam's dead corruptible flesh for a thousand years.

That is not my point, that is the other poster's point.

 

[keras]

The angels are not the wife of Jesus. The clean white linen that the armies in heaven are clothed in is the righteousness of the saints - the wife of Christ.

This assumption is not correct.
Angels wear white garments too. Satan and his minions wear psychedelic.

Your attempts to make the angel armies of heaven, into humans, is just a joke.
The 'wife' of Jesus will greet Him at His Return. WE will say: Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.

 

[Trivalee]

That is not the point I was making.

None of the OT are resurrected until after the Millennium. None of the church are resurrected until after the Millennium.

The only ones alive are Christians, not the lost. God does not protect the lost, but only the redeemed. These people never die, but live in Adam's dead corruptible flesh for a thousand years.

That is not my point, that is the other poster's point.

The OT saints were not mentioned in the post I responded to, so I wonder why you mentioned them. You said, "None of the church are resurrected until after the Millennium" this is FALSE! In 1 Thess 4:16, Paul says "...the dead in Christ rise first". IOW, the church will rise followed in quick succession by the rapture - see 1 Thess 4:16-17. And we know the church will rise/rapture to live and reign with the Lord during the millennium. The risen, immortalised saints will rule over those in the flesh (generally referred to as the nations) in those days - see Rev 2:26

I sometimes struggle to follow your logic as you have a roundabout way of making a point. I made citation of God's prophecy that believing Jews should flee into the wilderness to be nurtured and fed from the wrath of the beast for the duration of his little season. You countered with a ludicrous claim that they will die at some point to justify an erroneous assumption that they won't be in the flesh when the Lord returns in glory. The passages (Rev 12:6 & 14) I provided clearly refute this assumption. But rather than say, "hey, I got it wrong" you come back with something even more bizarre.

In Zech 14:2, we see the AC attack and overcome Jerusalem. Their properties looted, their women raped, and the rest forced out of Jerusalem - this occurs shortly before the Lord returns on Mount Olives to confront the AC at Armageddon. It is easy to understand from this passage that those who ignored the warning to flee were the intransigents that refused to accept Christ as their Messiah. As Paul argued in Rom 11 that God has not cast off his people, he added a caveat that a Jew must accept Christ to be saved. Jesus will never lower his standard; both Jews and Gentiles must believe the gospel to be saved. Therefore, it is not rocket science to understand that those who heed the warning to flee are believers in Christ! Think about it, if you're a Jew, hung up on Judaism and couldn't care less about Christ - why would you believe he (Jesus) can save you by fleeing into the wilderness?

• Ergo, those who flee are Jewish Christians, not the lost.
• And they will remain in the flesh until the Messiah returns and destroys the AC's army.

 

[dfw69]

Childish comment.
You have made an assumption, bereft of scriptural support.

Childish comment keras, really that’s your response? Does it make you feel superior that u constantly have to reply with snide remarks? Don’t you think that’s childish and unnecessary?

My comment just says I disagree with you

The Great White Throne Judgment will happen at the very last trumpet call, to call up all the dead to stand before God.
1 Corinthians 15:52b, Revelation 20:12 are parallel prophesies.

This is where your wrong brother
Two different event are taking place with two different descriptions and at 2 different times

The last trump is the second trump of the first trump as described in the paragraph Paul write about

And I far as I know , there is no mention of trumpet sounding off in the description of the great white throne judgment

! Cor 15:55-56 says Death is conquered. Describing Eternity:

For the dead in Christ , not the lost dead .Their resurrection and judgment take place at the end of the Millennium

See where you are wrong in your assumption?

Revelation 21:4, is another parallel, proving that Death continues for every human until after the Millennium.

Yes agree

There is an order and a 'rapture' removal is never found in it.

Not true for Paul just said Christ first the firstffruits then those at his coming so at least more that 2 times a resurrection takes place

I see at least 5 different resurrections found in scripture


Off the top of my head …

there is the rapture of the dead in Christ and those alive 1 cor 15:51-58

Then the martyrs are resurrected and seen in heaven before gods throne
Rev 7:9-15

Then the 2 witnesses are resurrected and go up to heaven Rev 11:8-12

Then the lost dead small and great before the great white throne Rev 20:12

The 144000 are firstfruits of a Jewish rapture , they are not killed, and I think they go up like Enoch and Elijah did , so they may be mortal . They are the manchild of Israel Rev 12:5
and Rev 14:1-5

No Prophecy says that people will be changed before Judgment. How can that be?

Good question …you sound like nicodemus… no offense brother but I thought you might smile at that one ……because Jesus made a way to the father go back reread what Jesus said to nicodemus . the way to the fathers house is by the transformation of the Holy Spirit

Paul taught that flesh and blood cannot inherit the heavenly kingdom then he revealed a mystery 1 cor 15:50

Jesus said the same thing to nicodemus

Right, and until the end of the Millennium, we are still humans, with human failings. But at least; Satan won't deceive anyone during the Mill.

Not us, for we have an opportunity to leave Egypt like the Jews did in the past only our destination is heaven

But yes life will continue after the rapture until the great white throne judgement

No, I pointed out that Jesus said people will be unable to properly discern Prophecy.
As is evidenced by the many conflicting theories and doctrines out there. You and me, both Christians, have differing end times beliefs, for example.

Yes I understand

Have you had Bible College or Seminary training? Or Church teaching on the Prophetic Word? If so you have been brainwashed and have been taught doctrines that may not have proper scriptural support.

No I have a dakes annotated ref bible

Like Job, David and Lazarus, John 11:24, to name a few; THEY must wait for the final Judgment - AFTER the Millennium.
I will die and have to wait for it too.
I have no pretentious notions of being given immortality before I am Judged, that idea is impossible.

Nothing is impossible with god

What I do want, is to do the tasks He asks of me, while I am able. I can't do that in heaven.
I do look forward to being called a son of the Living God. Romans 9:24-26

You do not know what god has in store for his children who are raptured I for one am willing to find out what his purpose will be for the rapture

 

[JulieB67]

I see it in scripture as plain as day sis

So you don't see the simplicity in this verse that Christ will appear just one more time which is the second?

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

And I'll even add this verses,

Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:"

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

It states restitution of "all things". Christ will remain in heaven until the restitution of "all things". And a pretrib rapture does not fit into any of these three verses.

 

[dfw69]

So you don't see the simplicity in this verse that Christ will appear just one more time which is the second?

No because paul teaches Christ will appears at the day of the lord for those that belong to the night and are asleep… which is an appointment for the day of wrath

Then he points out that we will not be there nor need to worry about that day because we belong to the day and walk in the light we have an appointment unto salvation

Thus 2 different time and seasons

Do you not see this truth?

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

Yes he appeared to the Hebrews once before and died to bear the sins of many

And paul says he will appear to them again to save them referring to the Hebrews when he will reign over them

And I'll even add this verses,

Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:"

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

It states restitution of "all things". Christ will remain in heaven until the restitution of "all things". And a pretrib rapture does not fit into any of these three verses.

Yes after the restitution of all things Christ returns to earth for the Jews

The rapture does not fit here because it is not mentioned here to the Jews

They don’t understand the glory which shall be revealed to us nor the mystery Paul revealed to the church concerning our gathering he taught us after the acts of the apostles

 

[Douggg]

This assumption is not correct.
Angels wear white garments too. Satan and his minions wear psychedelic.

Your attempts to make the angel armies of heaven, into humans, is just a joke.
The 'wife' of Jesus will greet Him at His Return. WE will say: Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.

keras, more disparaging remarks from you instead of actual proof from the text ?

There is no mention of angels in Revelation 19. And verses 7,8, 14 combine with one another that armies in heaven are the saints in their eternal everlasting incorruptible bodies, the wife of Christ.

The 'wife' of Jesus will greet Him at His Return. WE will say: Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.

The text in italics you are quoting from is Matthew 23:39 and is to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, who at his crucifixion, rejected Jesus to be their king of Israel. It has nothing to do with being Jesus's wife.

Go read John 12:12-15, "He who comes in the name of the Lord" is talking about being the king of Israel.

12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[JulieB67]

Then he points out that we will not be there nor need to worry about that day

He does not state that at all.
I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

No where in this verse does Paul state we will not be there. And we are not appointed to wrath but again, wrath is not tribulation.

And Paul teaches very clearly that one has to have to the gospel armour on to be able to stand in that "evil day" if it should happen in one's generation. We aren't to be looking to fly away.

And paul says he will appear to them again to save them referring to the Hebrews when he will reign over them

The verse specifically states "unto them that look for Him" he shall appear a second time. We can't add or take away from that.

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

Yes after the restitution of all things Christ returns to earth for the Jews

You've just contradicted the verse. It states whom heaven must receive until...Meaning he's not coming again until the restitution of all things. So that completely wipes out any pretrib return. If Christ comes back to restitute/restore "all things" he wouldn't have to yet come again. That does not make sense. You're basically stating he did not bring restitution of "all things"

 

[dfw69]

He does not state that at all.
I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

Actually it does if you truly understand what Paul is teaching you sis,

The time and season concerning the day of the lord for those in the night that he comes to like a thief is a specific appointment on a specific day

Example ..in the year 2530 on Monday the day of the lord is appointed and the wrath falls on this day …. But we both know no one knows the day or hour but this is just an example

Because we are not in darkness we are not appointed that day we have another appointment on Sunday 2030 for salvation by way of rapture … this is not the correct day but you get my point now right?

This is what Paul is teaching
The rapture event and day of the lord event is going to take place at 2 different appointed times and many years apart

No where in this verse does Paul state we will not be there. And we are not appointed to wrath but again, wrath is not tribulation.

Sis the wrath and the day of the lord is the same thing we are not appointed that day

But you mentioned the tribulation are you trying to say that the church will go through the tribulation? Which is a different subject

And Paul teaches very clearly that one has to have to the gospel armour on to be able to stand in that "evil day" if it should happen in one's generation. We aren't to be looking to fly away.

Eph 6:10-20 Paul does say put on the gospel armor to stand against evil powers in every day life

Notice the part where Paul says he preaches the mystery of the gospel
And take the helmet of salvation? Eph 6:17 and Eph 6:19

The rapture is one of those mysteries of the gospel sister

The verse specifically states "unto them that look for Him" he shall appear a second time. We can't add or take away from that.

They that look for him refers to the Jews sis

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

For Israel

You've just contradicted the verse. It states whom heaven must receive until...Meaning he's not coming again until the restitution of all things. So that completely wipes out any pretrib return. If Christ comes back to restitute/restore "all things" he wouldn't have to yet come again. That does not make sense. You're basically stating he did not bring restitution of "all things"

No sis please try to understand what I’m saying if you understood what I am saying you would not have said im contradicting the verse

Again he comes to earth to rule in Jerusalem after he restores all things concerning Israel , restitution means to restore what was lost or stolen. Jesus is coming back to take back what belongs to him …. Until that day he does not return to earth (to earth) to rule
So in saying this, I do not contradict the true scriptures concerning his second coming to earth during a specific time and season

But now back to the mystery of the gospel that Paul teaches the rapture which is an entirely different event apart from the restitution mentioned above. Paul teaches jesus come in the air and 2 trumpets sound for the dead in Christ and those alive we both are transformed by the spirit of god raise up to meet him go to his father house amen

The pretrib event is not mentioned in the restitution of jesus ,it is not addressed so you cannot assume it doesn’t exist because it’s not stated here .. the rapture is stated elsewhere making it a true event

I hope this helps peace

 

[JulieB67]

Because we are not in darkness we are not appointed that day

Again, that's not scriptural. Paul says we are not in darkness that the day should overtake us as a thief. Meaning if one knows what to watch for, it won't overtake us as it does others that are asleep, not on watch. No where in Paul's teachings does it state we will not be there. We are not appointed to wrath because God can take care of his own. His wrath will not effect us but it will others.

The rapture event and day of the lord event is going to take place at 2 different appointed times and many years apart

The problem is you are separating the events and subject of the end of 1st Thes chapter 4 and into chapter 5. It's the same subject and same event. Paul calls the event of chapter 4 the day of the Lord. The subject hasn't changed. He was continuing his train of thought. You have to realize this is a letter that Paul is writing, there were no chapters. Man inserted the chapters later.

But you mentioned the tribulation are you trying to say that the church will go through the tribulation? Which is a different subject

The church are the saints and yes they will be here during the tribulation. Christ states his return is "immediately after the tribulation". Where does a pretrib rapture fit into his teachings? It doesn't. The disciples ask for signs of "his coming" and he lays it all out.

Paul does say put on the gospel armor to stand against evil powers in every day life

Again, not what the scripture states. It states nothing about "every day life". It's much more serious than that.

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Notice it states "the evil day" not every day. That evil day is when Satan and co will be here defacto on earth. If one is not prepared for that you are in danger of being deceived. That's why one needs the full armour on if case it should happen in their generation and that's why the day would not overtake them as a thief. Because they know the signs that Christ, and later Paul as well as Christ's Revelation lay out. They know Christ does not return until the 7th trump and not a moment sooner. They will wait and stand and endure to the end until the true Christ returns and not fall away to the fake. We have to heed the warnings by Christ and Paul. Paul was not teaching to Jewish people at the time of his warnings that the falling away and son of perdtion would arrive before "our gathering back to him". You can't make this two different comings. Our means our, if it should happen in their lifetime or anyone elses. It's our gathering back to him period. One gathering.

The rapture is one of those mysteries of the gospel sister

The mystery is that "all will be changed" Not that anyone is going anywhere.

They that look for him refers to the Jews sis

It does not state that.

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

It states that Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many. It doesn't state just for the Jews, does it? Of course not. So why would the second part only refer to Jews? It states very specifically unto "them that look for Him" shall he appear the second time.

As I've stated many times in numerous threads, I was taught to believe in a pretrib rapture almost half my life. Never even dreaming that what I was taught was not biblical. But it's not. One can try and separate the comings into two different events, take things out of context and so on. But if one reads chapter by chapter, verse by verse and book by book, it's very easy to see Christ will return only one more time. Some will have wrath opposed on them at that time and others will be glorified.

 

[keras]

the rapture is stated elsewhere making it a true event

Only by assumption, can a 'rapture to heaven' be inferred. It will not and cannot happen.
We who refute and speak against the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine, do so out of concern for our fellow Christians, who have been lied to and deceived by their teachers.

There is no definitive scripture that says God intends to take His people up to heaven in these end times. There are, in fact quite a few that say He won't: John 3:13, John 17:15, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, 1 Cor 1:7-9, 1 Cor 10:13, 1 Peter 4:12-19, Jeremiah 25:29, Proverbs 10:30 Psalms 10:30, Psalms 37:29, Revelation 2:25-26

We are aware of the problem of many Christians, in that the 'rapture' is the only teaching for the Church, before Jesus Returns. One American I spoke to said: The rapture is all I have ever been taught.
This is a very sad state of affairs, as this false theory has set up many to fall from their faith, when they expect to be raptured, doesn't happen.

Here is a quote from Art Katz, a messianic Jew: “Nothing has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship and maturity that can stand strong in faith, in these end times; than the mistaken idea of a rapture to heaven, so they won’t have to face the Lord’s wrath”.

What we are told to do when things get bad, is to 'Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved.' Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21
Also, with the 'rapture' belief, you miss out on knowing the amazing promises of God, of how He will protect and bless His faithful people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land.

There are many prophesies telling us about God's plans, do not make the mistake of attributing His Blessings to the Jews. They have lost the Kingdom, Matthew 21:43, and we Christians, Jew and Gentile, are the inheritors of God's promises. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:26-29, as followers of Jesus, the One true Israel, thru whom all the promises of God will be fulfilled. 2 Corinthians 1:20

 

[dfw69]

Only by assumption, can a 'rapture to heaven' be inferred. It will not and cannot happen.

Or correct interpretation
Nothing is impossible with god keras

We who refute and speak against the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine, do so out of concern for our fellow Christians,

I understand that keras

who have been lied to and deceived by their teachers

I see it for myself in scripture and it’s not a lie keras

There is no definitive scripture that says God intends to take His people up to heaven in these end times. There are, in fact quite a few that say He won't: John 3:13, John 17:15, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, 1 Cor 1:7-9, 1 Cor 10:13, 1 Peter 4:12-19, Jeremiah 25:29, Proverbs 10:30 Psalms 10:30, Psalms 37:29, Revelation 2:25-26

We are aware of the problem of many Christians, in that the 'rapture' is the only teaching for the Church, before Jesus Returns. One American I spoke to said: The rapture is all I have ever been taught.
This is a very sad state of affairs, as this false theory has set up many to fall from their faith, when they expect to be raptured, doesn't happen.

Here is a quote from Art Katz, a messianic Jew: “Nothing has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship and maturity that can stand strong in faith, in these end times; than the mistaken idea of a rapture to heaven, so they won’t have to face the Lord’s wrath”.

What we are told to do when things get bad, is to 'Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved.' Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21
Also, with the 'rapture' belief, you miss out on knowing the amazing promises of God, of how He will protect and bless His faithful people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land.

There are many prophesies telling us about God's plans, do not make the mistake of attributing His Blessings to the Jews. They have lost the Kingdom, Matthew 21:43, and we Christians, Jew and Gentile, are the inheritors of God's promises. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:26-29, as followers of Jesus, the One true Israel, thru whom all the promises of God will be fulfilled. 2 Corinthians 1:20

I believe that rapture may happen soon within our lifetime so will see keras

 

[dfw69]

Again, that's not scriptural. Paul says we are not in darkness that the day should overtake us as a thief. Meaning if one knows what to watch for, it won't overtake us as it does others that are asleep, not on watch. No where in Paul's teachings does it state we will not be there. We are not appointed to wrath because God can take care of his own. His wrath will not effect us but it will others.

The problem is you are separating the events and subject of the end of 1st Thes chapter 4 and into chapter 5. It's the same subject and same event. Paul calls the event of chapter 4 the day of the Lord. The subject hasn't changed. He was continuing his train of thought. You have to realize this is a letter that Paul is writing, there were no chapters. Man inserted the chapters later.

The church are the saints and yes they will be here during the tribulation. Christ states his return is "immediately after the tribulation". Where does a pretrib rapture fit into his teachings? It doesn't. The disciples ask for signs of "his coming" and he lays it all out.

Again, not what the scripture states. It states nothing about "every day life". It's much more serious than that.

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Notice it states "the evil day" not every day. That evil day is when Satan and co will be here defacto on earth. If one is not prepared for that you are in danger of being deceived. That's why one needs the full armour on if case it should happen in their generation and that's why the day would not overtake them as a thief. Because they know the signs that Christ, and later Paul as well as Christ's Revelation lay out. They know Christ does not return until the 7th trump and not a moment sooner. They will wait and stand and endure to the end until the true Christ returns and not fall away to the fake. We have to heed the warnings by Christ and Paul. Paul was not teaching to Jewish people at the time of his warnings that the falling away and son of perdtion would arrive before "our gathering back to him". You can't make this two different comings. Our means our, if it should happen in their lifetime or anyone elses. It's our gathering back to him period. One gathering.


The mystery is that "all will be changed" Not that anyone is going anywhere.

It does not state that.

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

It states that Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many. It doesn't state just for the Jews, does it? Of course not. So why would the second part only refer to Jews? It states very specifically unto "them that look for Him" shall he appear the second time.

As I've stated many times in numerous threads, I was taught to believe in a pretrib rapture almost half my life. Never even dreaming that what I was taught was not biblical. But it's not. One can try and separate the comings into two different events, take things out of context and so on. But if one reads chapter by chapter, verse by verse and book by book, it's very easy to see Christ will return only one more time. Some will have wrath opposed on them at that time and others will be glorified.

I have reason to believe the rapture may take place soon just a theory but
will see , won’t we sister? god bless

 

[keras]

Nothing is impossible with god keras

Sure; but God does not change His set order of things. Heaven is a spiritual place for God and His angels, earth is a physical place for humans
There is no intermingling, until after the Millennium, when those humans accounted worthy, will be with God on a renewed, spiritual earth

Your comment above, rather that proving you rapture belief, shows your lack of any Biblical support for it.

I understand that

So sad that millions of good Christians are set up to be disappointed and many may renounce God for not doing what they expected.

I believe that rapture may happen soon within our lifetime so will see keras

Right, we are at the very edge of the commencement of all the end times events.
Al least it is Prophesied that after the forthcoming Day the Lord destroys His enemies, the deceived and confused Christian peoples will at last have their eyes opened and their ears unstopped. Isaiah 35:4-5, Isaiah 32:3-4

 

[dfw69]

Sure; but God does not change His set order of things. Heaven is a spiritual place for God and His angels,

Thus the need to be born again by the Holy spirit and to put on immortality to become like Jesus is it was possible for Jesus it’s possible for us his children

earth is a physical place for humans
There is no intermingling, until after the Millennium, when those humans accounted worthy, will be with God on a renewed, spiritual earth

If it’s possible after the millennium then god can give his firstfruits those promises before hand

Your comment above, rather that proving you rapture belief, shows your lack of any Biblical support for it.

Lol I could till in blue in the face but you cannot see it because u already believe there is no scripture supporting it and fight against it thinking your right in your interpretations but in time you will see you were wrong in your interpretations

So sad that millions of good Christians are set up to be disappointed and many may renounce God for not doing what they expected.

We are called from the beginning to keep the faith and hope of salvation no matter what comes our way keras many have died knowing a rapture takes place and we will not miss it thought we live or die

Right, we are at the very edge of the commencement of all the end times events.
Al least it is Prophesied that after the forthcoming Day the Lord destroys His enemies, the deceived and confused Christian peoples will at last have their eyes opened and their ears unstopped. Isaiah 35:4-5, Isaiah 32:3-4

No we are not keras

What makes you think that?

 

[Timtofly]

This assumption is not correct.
Angels wear white garments too. Satan and his minions wear psychedelic.

Your attempts to make the angel armies of heaven, into humans, is just a joke.
The 'wife' of Jesus will greet Him at His Return. WE will say: Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.

The stars are the angels.

Are you saying the stars shine their light, because they are wearing white garments?

 

[Timtofly]

The OT saints were not mentioned in the post I responded to, so I wonder why you mentioned them. You said, "None of the church are resurrected until after the Millennium" this is FALSE! In 1 Thess 4:16, Paul says "...the dead in Christ rise first". IOW, the church will rise followed in quick succession by the rapture - see 1 Thess 4:16-17. And we know the church will rise/rapture to live and reign with the Lord during the millennium. The risen, immortalised saints will rule over those in the flesh (generally referred to as the nations) in those days - see Rev 2:26

I sometimes struggle to follow your logic as you have a roundabout way of making a point. I made citation of God's prophecy that believing Jews should flee into the wilderness to be nurtured and fed from the wrath of the beast for the duration of his little season. You countered with a ludicrous claim that they will die at some point to justify an erroneous assumption that they won't be in the flesh when the Lord returns in glory. The passages (Rev 12:6 & 14) I provided clearly refute this assumption. But rather than say, "hey, I got it wrong" you come back with something even more bizarre.

In Zech 14:2, we see the AC attack and overcome Jerusalem. Their properties looted, their women raped, and the rest forced out of Jerusalem - this occurs shortly before the Lord returns on Mount Olives to confront the AC at Armageddon. It is easy to understand from this passage that those who ignored the warning to flee were the intransigents that refused to accept Christ as their Messiah. As Paul argued in Rom 11 that God has not cast off his people, he added a caveat that a Jew must accept Christ to be saved. Jesus will never lower his standard; both Jews and Gentiles must believe the gospel to be saved. Therefore, it is not rocket science to understand that those who heed the warning to flee are believers in Christ! Think about it, if you're a Jew, hung up on Judaism and couldn't care less about Christ - why would you believe he (Jesus) can save you by fleeing into the wilderness?

• Ergo, those who flee are Jewish Christians, not the lost.
• And they will remain in the flesh until the Messiah returns and destroys the AC's army.

I was adding that point to his post, so you could see the whole picture.

Keras claims no one is resurrected, not even the OT, until the GWT in Revelation 20.

He claims no one is currently in heaven.

All the Jews from all time are not coming back to flee into the wilderness. It is only those currently alive at this very moment of the post. We are in the time of the generation who will see all things:

The rebirth of national Israel.
The Second Coming.
The GT.
The AoD.

In that order. People will physically die. That is why the angels are on earth, and it is called the final harvest. Matthew 13.

 

[keras]

The rebirth of national Israel.
The Second Coming.
The GT.
The AoD.

In that order.

I gave you a 'like', but must correct the order of fulfilment:
1/ The rebirth of national Jewish Israel.
2/ The removal of all the apostate, atheistic and Jesus rejecting peoples from all of the holy Land. The Sixth Seal world changer.
3/ The gathering and migration of all the Christian peoples to live in all of the holy Land.
4/ The Gog/Magog attack.
5/ the AoD in the new Temple.
6/ The GT and the faithful Christians kept in a place of safety.
7/ Jesus Returns and commences His Millennium reign.
8/ The GWT Judgment, then Eternity. Only then does anyone receive immortality.

There is plenty of scriptural proof for these things to happen and in that order.
There is no need for anybody to be removed, in fact the amazing Blessings that God promises, are much better to experience than going to harp practice. God needs His righteous people here, we have work to do.