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Mark Quayle

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I stand by my statement: if God is controlling everything I do, then I do not have free will.

Then, if I know what you mean by "free will", I agree with you. We have no independent (uncaused) choice.

Cause and effect is pervasive. Chance is not; chance doesn't even exist.

But we do have real choice, just not truly spontaneous, truly sovereign, choice.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Been there, done that-over and over. We can both shake the dust off our feet-with the same frusdstation at why the other isn't comprehending. But that''s a daily occurence on these forums, mainly due to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura incidentally.
Now THAT you are right about! If you depend on THE CHURCH for moral authority over conscience, you will disagree with those who depend on THE WORD OF GOD for everything.
 
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fhansen

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Now THAT you are right about! If you depend on THE CHURCH for moral authority over conscience, you will disagree with those who depend on THE WORD OF GOD for everything.
Suire, of course, Sola Scriptura virtually guarantees disagreement, which Luther, himself, was concerned about, while the church at least has a continous legacy of understanding, that aligns with Scripture. When a person is willing and able to see clearly they acknowledge that Sola Scriptura means to rely on man's private interpretation, whether on our own or in conjunctiion with others who've taken the same independent route. In good conscience I can no longer take it. The church teaches that a man must, necessarily, go by their own conscience, and never act against it. But the conscience is informed and developed over time and Sola Scriptura ultimately proves itself to be unsupportable.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Suire, of course, Sola Scriptura virtually guarantees disagreement, which Luther, himself, was concerned about, while the church at least has a continous legacy of understanding, that aligns with Scripture. When a person is willing and able to see clearly they acknowledge that Sola Scriptura means to rely on man's private interpretation, whether on our own or in conjunctiion with others who've taken the same independent route. In good conscience I can no longer take it. The church teaches that a man must, necessarily, go by their own conscience, and never act against it. But the conscience is informed and developed over time and Sola Scriptura ultimately proves itself to be unsupportable.
Not proud of the RCC are we? "Continuous legacy of understanding, that aligns with Scripture"? Maybe you should go visit the atheist forum on Craigslist Forums, ask them about the record of the RCC. You will want some ear canal cleaner.
 
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fhansen

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Not proud of the RCC are we? "Continuous legacy of understanding, that aligns with Scripture"? Maybe you should go visit the atheist forum on Craigslist Forums, ask them about the record of the RCC. You will want some ear canal cleaner.
Oh, I've heard it all-beginning well before I entered the RCC. Atheists don't have much good to say about Christianity in general for that matter. As for myself I mainly just had to shed a good part of my former human priggishness in order to be able to understand how people in the church might sin, in spite of their own teachings.

But this is nothing more than a diversion anyway from the heart of the matter, which is that, with or without Tradition, the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is bankrupt. And I didn't mention the RCC anyway because even if a person rejects Catholicism they can check out the EO, which will uphold the same basic teachings along with the concept that Tradition is necessary in order to have any hope of having a full clear understanding of the faith.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Oh, I've heard it all-beginning well before I entered the RCC. Atheists don't have much good to say about Christianity in general for that matter. As for myself I mainly just had to shed a good part of my former human priggishness in order to be able to understand how people in the church might sin, in spite of their own teachings.

But this is nothing more than a diversion anyway from the heart of the matter, which is that, with or without Tradition, the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is bankrupt. And I didn't mention the RCC anyway because even if a person rejects Catholicism they can check out the EO, which will uphold the same basic teachings along with the concept that Tradition is necessary in order to have any hope of having a full clear understanding of the faith.
The RCC is no anchor.

And it is not independent interpretation that we hold for an anchor, but the Word itself. We have to return to it for our authority, not even to what we think it says, but to return, and keep returning.

I don't recall you saying WHY you consider the church to be what you must answer to, rather than to Christ.
 
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com7fy8

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So what is the real / ultimate will of God regarding salvation?
I would say Romans 8:29 can help us to see what is God's number-one focus in and through all things.

Everything fits with this . . . somehow.
 
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Valletta

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The RCC is no anchor.

And it is not independent interpretation that we hold for an anchor, but the Word itself. We have to return to it for our authority, not even to what we think it says, but to return, and keep returning.

I don't recall you saying WHY you consider the church to be what you must answer to, rather than to Christ.
Jesus created the Church and heads the Church. When disciples listened to Peter they were not ultimately "answering" to Peter, they were ultimately answering to God. The Catholic Church did not compile the Bible until some time later, giving the world the Bible in the late 300s. And it was roughly a thousand years later when the idea of turning over authority to a book really caught on.
 
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disciple Clint

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Man does have free will; i.e., the power to voluntarily choose what he prefers without external force or constraint.

He has that ability, he chooses what he prefers.
I am happy that you see that now.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Jesus created the Church and heads the Church. When disciples listened to Peter they were not ultimately "answering" to Peter, they were ultimately answering to God. The Catholic Church did not compile the Bible until some time later, giving the world the Bible in the late 300s. And it was roughly a thousand years later when the idea of turning over authority to a book really caught on.
Is it the Word of God, or not? John 1 might help you understand the point I'm making. The Word of God has been around literally forever.

The fact that God makes much of "The Church" is important, no doubt, and The Church has a huge responsibility, but it is has no authority over conscience. Nor does it have the authority to forgive sins. So it is no firm foundation. No anchor.

Your logic, that something-come-lately is not as reliable, or has no particular authority, compared to what has been around a long time, is as fallacious as the notion that larger numbers of attendees makes a thing more valid, or that a belief more rabidly pursued is more valid, or that

But what is remarkable to me here, though not surprising, is the notion that "The Church" is, somehow, the RCC, with all its hierarchy, pope adoration, saint worship, etc. and not the notion that it is the redeemed elect, wherever they are.

Take a look at Acts 8:26-40, and explain how this fits into your narrative
 
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Valletta

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Is it the Word of God, or not? John 1 might help you understand the point I'm making. The Word of God has been around literally forever.

The fact that God makes much of "The Church" is important, no doubt, and The Church has a huge responsibility, but it is has no authority over conscience. Nor does it have the authority to forgive sins. So it is no firm foundation. No anchor.

Your logic, that something-come-lately is not as reliable, or has no particular authority, compared to what has been around a long time, is as fallacious as the notion that larger numbers of attendees makes a thing more valid, or that a belief more rabidly pursued is more valid, or that

But what is remarkable to me here, though not surprising, is the notion that "The Church" is, somehow, the RCC, with all its hierarchy, pope adoration, saint worship, etc. and not the notion that it is the redeemed elect, wherever they are.

Take a look at Acts 8:26-40, and explain how this fits into your narrative
Let me clear up your misconceptions. Catholics believe that the worship due God is for God and for God alone. We do not "adore" the pope, popes are sinners, and some have been quite the sinners. This has been so from the beginning, our first pope denied Our Lord three times. As to forgiving sins, read John 20 21-23: Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
Recall that the only other time the God breathed on man was in Genesis 2:7. As to that portion of Acts, it shows us that the sacrament of Baptism, which is the initiation into Christ's Church, is for all.
 
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Clare73

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Been there, done that-over and over. We can both shake the dust off our feet-with the same frusrtation at why the other isn't comprehending. But that''s a daily occurence on these forums, mainly due to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura incidentally.
Please give the number of the post where you Biblically demonstrated my error.
 
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fhansen

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Please give the number of the post where you Biblically demonstrated my error.
Been there done that-with you-multiple times in the past. If you didn't see it then you probably won't now. You're swayed by a somehwat skewed gospel. Fortunately, at the end of the day most people live as if what they choose to do counts -and don't presume that they're already necessarily numbered amiong the elect, regardless of theology.
 
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Clare73

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Been there done that-with you-multiple times in the past. If you didn't see it then you probably won't now. You're swayed by a somehwat skewed gospel.
Assertion without merit, having no Biblical demonstration.
Fortunately, at the end of the day most people live as if what they choose to do counts -and don't presume that they're already necessarily numbered amiong the elect, regardless of theology.
Previously litigated. . .will not be relitigating it.
 
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fhansen

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Assertion without merit, having no Biblical demonstration.
Assertion without merit-you simply closed your eyes to the biblcal demonstration along with the historical one.
Previously litigated. . .will not be relitigating it.
You should do so, just for your own sake.
 
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Clare73

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Assertion without merit-you simply closed your eyes to the biblcal demonstration along with the historical one.
You should do so, just for your own sake.
Previously litigated. . .will not be relitigating it.
 
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