Universalism and Particular Redemption

[ozso]

And yet is being a Christian enough anyway? What does that even necessarily mean, just “being a Christian”? What if some guy who can’t know God as well as I can and has never heard the law nonetheless obeys the law regarding his neighbor much better than I do because like some Good Samaritan he loves better than I do? I’d rather be in his shoes when we meet God I think.

But then again, if salvation is universal I guess it really doesn’t much matter; either there is no criteria by which we’re judged or God will eventually bring everyone around to His POV and to value His love anyway by the end of the day. But if the former is true, or if election without regard to man’s will is true, then it really makes me wonder, why all the drama? Why all the evil down through the centuries? Why allow evil to ever have its day at all? Why would Jesus need to come, let alone come to suffer for our sakes? Why would man need any revelation, any knowledge? Why not just put everyone in heaven at the beginning and get it done?

I was addressing the idea that people send themselves to hell, purposely choose hell, by rejecting salvation. Which I've held to myself. But I find myself pondering if it's as cut and dry as that.

As for what you asked, I've heard the atheist Richard Dawkins ask the same kinds of questions. Why all the drama? Why doesn't God just forgive everyone? And I've pondered this also to a degree. Why did it take so long for the Messiah to arrive? There's so many questions that can be asked about why God has done things the way he has.

 

[fhansen]

I was addressing the idea that people send themselves to hell, purposely choose hell, by rejecting salvation. Which I've held to myself. But I find myself pondering if it's as cut and dry as that.

As for what you asked, I've heard the atheist Richard Dawkins ask the same kinds of questions. Why all the drama? Why doesn't God just forgive everyone? And I've pondered this also to a degree. Why did it take so long for the Messiah to arrive? There's so many questions that can be asked about why God has done things the way he has.

True enough, but if the human will is involved then we have the capacity, with grace, to turn from the evil that the abuse of our freedom results in. And if that's God's purpose, for us to come to hate and shun evil, to begin to prefer and embrace light over darkness, then His allowing that freedom with that evil has a purpose: that we should participate in our overcoming evil amd thereby pariticipate in our becoming more like Him. So He's patient and graceful- in His work.

 

[ozso]

True enough, but if the human will is involved then we have the capacity, with grace, to turn from the evil that the abuse of our freedom results in. And if that's God's purpose, for us to come to hate and shun evil, to begin to prefer and embrace light over darkness, then His allowing that freedom with that evil has a purpose: that we should participate in our overcoming evil amd thereby pariticipate in our becoming more like Him. So He's patient and graceful- in His work.

Completely agree. But I don't see how that precludes continued progress in the age to come for everyone.

 

[fhansen]

Completely agree. But I don't see how that precludes continued progress in the age to come for everyone.

Sounds good. And of course the ancient churches taught final purification before heaven but also the radical possibilty of a person rejecting heaven, love, God altogether, preferring darkness, pride, selfishness, etc.

So either way we're to decide. I do appreciate the understanding of Julian of Norwich, whose words I've cited before and which are quoted in our catechsism. Burdened by so many dying of the Black Plague in 14th century Britain she pleaded with God for understanding of their eternal fates and this was granted. God would profoundly "shew" her, such that she would know this simple truth, that "All shall be well and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well."

Without going into specific details God had reassured her that whatever He does will end up satisfactory to all- all will know that the right thing has definitively been done. All shall be well in God's universe.

 

[ozso]

Sounds good. And of course the ancient churches taught final purification before heaven but also the radical possibilty of a person rejecting heaven, love, God altogether, preferring darkness, pride, selfishness, etc

Yeah right, like that's ever happened (joking). The problem with this is it has too much wiggle room between you only have your short lifespan to get things just right, or it's down the eternal torment hell chute you go... to everyone goes straight to haven including Hitler and Satan.

 

[fhansen]

Yeah right, like that's ever happened (joking). The problem with this is it has too much wiggle room between you only have your short lifespan to get things just right, or it's down the eternal torment hell chute you go... to everyone goes straight to haven including Hitler and Satan.

Re-read the post now.

 

[ozso]

Re-read the post now.

Eh? I meant the problem with the theology that's out there. Not your post.

 

[Clare73]

OK and then you get back to the problem of God being responsible for all sin, If God is controlling man then man is not responsible for sin, God is.
Can you see how that is not possible?

What I can see is your use of human wisdom to understand the Divine wisdom and its eternal purpose.

Let me present you with another fact of Divine wisdom; i.e.,
Adam's guilt is imputed to us (Romans 5:12-14, Romans 5:18).
We are guilty, no matter what.

Now let me present you with the Divine wisdom's purpose in this; i.e.,
Christ's righteousness is likewise imputed to us by faith,
as God's righteousness (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21) was imputed to Abraham by faith.
(Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3)

The problem of Adam's (the first Adam's) guilt by imputation
is remedied with Christ's (the second Adam's) righteousness by imputation through faith.

Everything else is just man's noise.

 

[Clare73]

That doesn't apply to everyone. Or even most throughout the course of history. As someone challenging my faith once pointed out, it was mighty convenient
for me to be born where the only correct religion is so extremely prevalent.

That is called a "blessing."

Would I be a Christian if I had been born where that wasn't the case?

Many are. . .through the hearing of the gospel.

 

[Clare73]

I was addressing the idea that people send themselves to hell, purposely choose hell, by rejecting salvation. Which I've held to myself. But I find myself pondering if it's as cut and dry as that.
As for what you asked, I've heard the atheist Richard Dawkins ask the same kinds of questions. Why all the drama? Why doesn't God just forgive everyone? And I've pondered this also to a degree. Why did it take so long for the Messiah to arrive? There's
so many questions that can be asked about why God has done things the way he has.

One simple answer: for his divine purpose of glorifying his Son.

The only question is how each part of the plan does so.
And the NT pretty much explains that.

 

[fhansen]

Eh? I meant the problem with the theology that's out there. Not your post.

Alright. Since I had edited the post I didn't know if you saw it all. Anyway, the theology I'm familiar with understands that the willful option for sin/evil exists, that God wants all to choose good and works only towards that end. And that evil will ultimately be done away with, triumphed over. How He works all that out by the end of the day we don't know with certainty but we can know that it will be perfect, however He does it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Well yes, if God is controlling everything I do, then I have no free will

Poor logic. If God is "hands-off", as I suppose you mean, then you are still controlled by the law of causation. If God is "hands-on", he is at the beginning of the chain of cause and effect, and you are still controlled.

But you may as well say, if God is controlling ANYthing you do, you have no free will.

But notice, this control does not mean you do not actually choose.

 

[disciple Clint]

That doesn't apply to everyone. Or even most throughout the course of history. As someone challenging my faith once pointed out, it was mighty convenient for me to be born where the only correct religion is so extremely prevalent. Would I be a Christian if I had been born where that wasn't the case?

Well lets take the example of Abraham, he believed God and believed that a savior would be provided by God and the savior would eradicate his sin. Even those who have not been exposed to the Gospel can be saved if they acknowledge God. Ignorance does not cause people to end up in hell.

 

[disciple Clint]

What I can see is your use of human wisdom to understand the Divine wisdom and its eternal purpose.

Let me present you with another fact of Divine wisdom; i.e.,
Adam's guilt is imputed to us (Romans 5:12-14, Romans 5:18).
We are guilty, no matter what.

Now let me present you with the Divine wisdom's purpose in this; i.e.,
Christ's righteousness is likewise imputed to us by faith,
as God's righteousness (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21) was imputed to Abraham by faith.
(Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3)

The problem of Adam's (the first Adam's) guilt by imputation
is remedied with Christ's (the second Adam's) righteousness by imputation through faith.

Everything else is just man's noise.

All of which has nothing to do with what I posted face it there is no way to say that man does not have free will and yet hold man responsible for sin, it would be unjust for God to punish man for sin if man did not have the ability to make an election to either sin or not sin.

 

[disciple Clint]

Poor logic. If God is "hands-off", as I suppose you mean, then you are still controlled by the law of causation. If God is "hands-on", he is at the beginning of the chain of cause and effect, and you are still controlled.

But you may as well say, if God is controlling ANYthing you do, you have no free will.

But notice, this control does not mean you do not actually choose.

I stand by my statement: if God is controlling everything I do, then I do not have free will.

 

[ozso]

Well lets take the example of Abraham, he believed God and believed that a savior would be provided by God and the savior would eradicate his sin. Even those who have not been exposed to the Gospel can be saved if they acknowledge God. Ignorance does not cause people to end up in hell.

Are you equating ignorance with a lack of knowledge, or also a lack of understanding? It seems regarding the Pharisees that they didn't lack knowledge, but rather lacked understanding. "Forgive them for they know not what they do".

What I was addressing is the notion that people choose hell by choosing to reject God/Christ. Whereas I think there must be gray area involved in that, rather than it being black and white cut and dry.

When it comes to my older brother who was a devoted Christian and taught me a lot about the Bible and Christianity, and ended up as an apostate atheist. I have to wonder if he's in his right mind so to speak.

 

[fhansen]

That "certain position" influencing me is called "the Scriptures."

Nah, just your interpretation of them, as influenced by some preceding you.

"THe Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children (Romans 8:16), sons of God led by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14).

Oh, I see, that necessarily has to do with you. Others also claim it who disagree with you on theology.

On the testimony of two witnesses (i.e, the Holy Spirit and my spirit), a thing is established.

(Matthew 18:16; 2 Corinthians 13:1; 1 Timothy 5:19)

Um, yes, ok. And I can find many others who’ve established differing testimonies with the HS. The gospel according to whoever thinks they’re right. Like I said, a highly subjective self-assessment at the end of the day. And by far the largest group of testifiers, the orignal church in the east and west, disagree with you anyway.

Except for the fact that they don't "end up" being the elect, they start out being the elect:

"Those God foreknew (knew in love, for his purpose--as in Jacob, Romans 9:11,

choosing them by his grace--before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4),

before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9), and not "ending up" being the elect.

And as the church understands the matter, they’re “predestined” by virtue of God’s foreknowledge of their free choices, which He doesn’t predetermine even as He provides us with the grace to make the right choices.

We can be in the kingdom (like wheat), but not of the kingdom (like tares). (Matthew 13:24-30)

Thereby showing themselves to be tares, not wheat, but which do look alike.

And no one can predict with 100% certainty whether they’ll end up wheat or tares. That’s God’s province.

 

[Clare73]

All of which has nothing to do with what I posted face it there is no way to say that man does not have free will and yet hold man responsible for sin,

Man does have free will; i.e., the power to voluntarily choose what he prefers without external force or constraint.

it would be unjust for God to punish man for sin if man did not have the ability to make an election to either sin or not sin.

He has that ability, he chooses what he prefers.

 

[Clare73]

Nah, just your interpretation of them, as influenced by some preceding you.

Biblical assertion with Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.

Oh, I see, that necessarily has to do with you. Others also claim it who disagree with you on theology.
Um, yes, ok. And I can find many others who’ve established differing testimonies with the HS. The gospel according to whoever thinks they’re right. Like I said, a highly subjective self-assessment at the end of the day. And by far the largest group of testifiers, the orignal church in the east and west, disagree with you anyway.

Two things:
1) Precisely how many men and how many women have you found with differing testimonies from the Holy Spirit regarding their being sons of God? (Romans 8:14). . .That's what I thought.

2) You don't get to make that call.

as the church understands the matter, they’re “predestined” by virtue of God’s foreknowledge of their free choices, which He doesn’t predetermine even as He provides us with the grace to make the right choices.

And no one can predict with 100% certainty whether they’ll end up wheat or tares. That’s God’s province.

Previously addressed. . .

 

[fhansen]

Biblical assertion with Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.

Been there, done that-over and over. We can both shake the dust off our feet-with the same frusrtation at why the other isn't comprehending. But that''s a daily occurence on these forums, mainly due to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura incidentally.