Universalism and Particular Redemption

[Mark Quayle]

I have received this notification when I tried to answer something @wendykvw said to someone else, but can't find why:
Christian Forums - Error
You do not have permission to view this page or perform this action.

So I'm here opening another thread:

@wendykvw said, "We have a common goal. To learn from the Lord Jesus. Jesus is Lord. Satan is not Lord. But if you continue to believe human will prevents God from accomplishing what He wills you grant Satan Lord of All creation. You think Satan wins the majority of creation? That is blasphemy. Romans 8:38-39 states nothing separates us from the love of God. Not the devil, not the angels and not even death."

Particularly, I (MQ) note: "if you continue to believe human will prevents God from accomplishing what He wills you grant Satan Lord of All creation."

Glad you have some insight into a basic principle of who God is. I could almost believe you have a Reformed-like view of the "two wills of God" (variously, "his Hidden will and his Revealed will" or "his Plan and his Command" (which one way of putting it, I find maybe the most useful for argument) or to put it another way, his Eternal will and his Moral will). As John Frame put it, (while I must find qualification for what he means by "everything [God] values") "God does not intend to bring about everything he values, but he never fails to bring about what he intends."

But what you take to be a failure on God's part to save anyone, is not, if he never intended to save them, but instead to show his justice, purity, power and glory to the 'objects of his mercy' —the Elect. I agree it is blasphemy to claim human will can defeat God's eternal will, But I note that we all (including the Reformed) fall short in describing God and 'his plan for the ages'. We are, after all, human; and it is, after all, his 'hidden' will. So it is only by God's grace that we are not all disqualified and condemned for our blasphemy.

For those of us who have found God in our hearts, that is, for those of us in whom the Spirit of God has taken up residence, it is incumbent on us to be patient with those believers whose words, like ours, do not adequately describe the Gospel. Our own words may condemn us, if we require absolute accuracy from anyone else. The Gospel is, after all, not quite ours, but God's, to know and express. As are our very lives.

More on "what [God] values" at your request.

 

[Mark Quayle]

@wendykvw I see I neglected to include this note on what you said, to which I meant to remark: Whatever God intends, what we might relegate to failure on his part by no means implies that Satan won the day. Many indeed are slaves to sin, but Satan's torment in the Lake of Fire is to some degree like anyone else's. He does not rule there, nor does he own anyone there. In fact, there is, conversely to the notion that in Heaven the redeemed will be above the angels, reason to think the condemned humans will be worse than the Devil himself, having, unlike him, been made in the image of God and God himself having abandoned them, removed all graces and 'redeeming qualities' of the human we thought we knew. I barely call them 'human' anymore, but to differ them from Satan and his demons, and to show from where they fell. Everything Satan does plays into God's hands, just as God planned from the beginning, but couldn't by any means be called obedience. Satan doesn't win anything, but God wins everything, and not by Universalism.

 

[SkyWriting]

Good to know.

 

[disciple Clint]

@wendykvw I see I neglected to include this note on what you said, to which I meant to remark: Whatever God intends, what we might relegate to failure on his part by no means implies that Satan won the day. Many indeed are slaves to sin, but Satan's torment in the Lake of Fire is to some degree like anyone else's. He does not rule there, nor does he own anyone there. In fact, there is, conversely to the notion that in Heaven the redeemed will be above the angels, reason to think the condemned humans will be worse than the Devil himself, having, unlike him, been made in the image of God and God himself having abandoned them, removed all graces and 'redeeming qualities' of the human we thought we knew. I barely call them 'human' anymore, but to differ them from Satan and his demons, and to show from where they fell. Everything Satan does plays into God's hands, just as God planned from the beginning, but couldn't by any means be called obedience. Satan doesn't win anything, but God wins everything, and not by Universalism.

I think the terms that you might be looking for is the permissive will of God and the prescriptive will of God. There is no competition between satan and God, God created satan and God is all powerful.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I think the terms that you might be looking for is the permissive will of God and the prescriptive will of God. There is no competition between satan and God, God created satan and God is all powerful.

Yes. There are many ways it is described, and no one of them entirely adequate to get the point across to everyone.

But AMEN on that! The concept of some sort of dualism between God and Satan, even as some claim Christ and Satan are brothers, or some other such abomination, is unspeakably blasphemous. There is finally no success on Satan's part, though we may attribute him with accomplishing something he set out to do. He is a tool.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I have received this notification when I tried to answer something @wendykvw said to someone else, but can't find why:
Christian Forums - Error
You do not have permission to view this page or perform this action.

That means that the thread was closed or posts were removed and possibly the member was banned. Usually when a thread is closed or posts are removed, it's against forum rules to continue it in a new thread.

 

[returntosender]

I have received this notification when I tried to answer something @wendykvw said to someone else, but can't find why:
Christian Forums - Error
You do not have permission to view this page or perform this action.

So I'm here opening another thread:

@wendykvw said, "We have a common goal. To learn from the Lord Jesus. Jesus is Lord. Satan is not Lord. But if you continue to believe human will prevents God from accomplishing what He wills you grant Satan Lord of All creation. You think Satan wins the majority of creation? That is blasphemy. Romans 8:38-39 states nothing separates us from the love of God. Not the devil, not the angels and not even death."

Particularly, I (MQ) note: "if you continue to believe human will prevents God from accomplishing what He wills you grant Satan Lord of All creation."

Glad you have some insight into a basic principle of who God is. I could almost believe you have a Reformed-like view of the "two wills of God" (variously, "his Hidden will and his Revealed will" or "his Plan and his Command" (which one way of putting it, I find maybe the most useful for argument) or to put it another way, his Eternal will and his Moral will). As John Frame put it, (while I must find qualification for what he means by "everything [God] values") "God does not intend to bring about everything he values, but he never fails to bring about what he intends."

But what you take to be a failure on God's part to save anyone, is not, if he never intended to save them, but instead to show his justice, purity, power and glory to the 'objects of his mercy' —the Elect. I agree it is blasphemy to claim human will can defeat God's eternal will, But I note that we all (including the Reformed) fall short in describing God and 'his plan for the ages'. We are, after all, human; and it is, after all, his 'hidden' will. So it is only by God's grace that we are not all disqualified and condemned for our blasphemy.

For those of us who have found God in our hearts, that is, for those of us in whom the Spirit of God has taken up residence, it is incumbent on us to be patient with those believers whose words, like ours, do not adequately describe the Gospel. Our own words may condemn us, if we require absolute accuracy from anyone else. The Gospel is, after all, not quite ours, but God's, to know and express. As are our very lives.

More on "what [God] values" at your request.

I got the same thing and a strange message. I reported it and the message was removed and then my permission was back. I think it was a hack.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That means that the thread was closed or posts were removed and possibly the member was banned. Usually when a thread is closed or posts are removed, it's against forum rules to continue it in a new thread.

Thanks. Glad the thread wasn't closed, because I don't mean to break the rules.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I got the same thing and a strange message. I reported it and the message was removed and then my permission was back. I think it is a hack.

Hmmm. Haha, I almost feel famous now! Because I am affected by one of those hacks I've heard about!

 

[Ceallaigh]

Hmmm. Haha, I almost feel famous now! Because I am affected by one of those hacks I've heard about!

I was hoping you'd take it that way

 

[JulieB67]

Thanks. Glad the thread wasn't closed, because I don't mean to break the rules.

Was it on the "God can save the World thread"? Because that thread has disappeared. I posted on it yesterday and now it's gone.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Was it on the "God can save the World thread"? Because that thread has disappeared. I posted on it yesterday and now it's gone.

No, but this is rather a side issue to that thread, and I'm not sure entirely legal for me to tie it to that thread. (I don't have a problem with doing so, but someone else might, so I'll leave it as is for now.)

 

[JulieB67]

No, but this is rather a side issue to that thread,

Oh ok.

 

[Andrewn]

the "two wills of God" (variously, "his Hidden will and his Revealed will" or "his Plan and his Command" (which one way of putting it, I find maybe the most useful for argument) or to put it another way, his Eternal will and his Moral will). As John Frame put it, (while I must find qualification for what he means by "everything [God] values") "God does not intend to bring about everything he values, but he never fails to bring about what he intends."

But what you take to be a failure on God's part to save anyone, is not, if he never intended to save them, but instead to show his justice, purity, power and glory to the 'objects of his mercy' —the Elect.

I never heard about this before.

2 wills = 2 separate individuals.

Is God 2 separate individuals fighting? Or is He one person who is sneaky, hiding his true will, which is to get the majority to hell?

 

[returntosender]

Hmmm. Haha, I almost feel famous now! Because I am affected by one of those hacks I've heard about!

You weren't hacked cf was.

 

[fhansen]

"We have a common goal. To learn from the Lord Jesus. Jesus is Lord. Satan is not Lord. But if you continue to believe human will prevents God from accomplishing what He wills you grant Satan Lord of All creation. You think Satan wins the majority of creation? That is blasphemy. Romans 8:38-39 states nothing separates us from the love of God. Not the devil, not the angels and not even death."

I believe that post of Wendy's was originally directed to me. My answer defended the role of man's will in his salvation, according to God's sovereign discretion. In ancient church teachings man can’t possibly turn himself to God; he cannot find God, but he can still refuse to be found by Him, refuse to come to Him when He calls or open the door when He knocks. Man can also shut the door later, refusing to remain in Him, turning back away; man can say “no” to God. If God’s will is always done, why do we pray that it be done on earth as it is in heaven? Or why is God patiently waiting for us to come to Him, not wanting any to perish as per 2 Pet 3:9 if not for the possibility of our not being saved? What’s the hold-up, other than man's will?

And if salvation is universal as the OP maintains, then for what possible reason would God submit humans to centuries of pain, evil, victimization, sin? Why not just put everyone in heaven if that’s the idea anyway, without regard to man’s will as it were? And why would I even care if I blasphemed, if salvation is universal?? In truth, nothing will separate us from the love of God except for our own lack of love in return, our own failure to respond in faith, hope, and love. Man’s the wildcard, always has been; that’s what allowed Adam to fall to begin with: by the abuse of the good gift of his freedom.

And that's why we need revelation and grace, revelation in order to know God and His will, and then grace in order to be capable of believing in and obeying it, obeying Him now, as Adam refused to do back in the day. But He won't force the issue; that's why evil exists to begin with.

 

[JulieB67]

Or why is God patiently waiting for us to come to Him, not wanting any to perish as per 2 Pet 3:9 if not for the possibility of our not being saved? What’s the hold-up, other than man's will?

Exactly. Why is he so long suffering if all it takes is a dip in the LOF to redeem someone? Doesn't make sense to me.

In truth, nothing will separate us from the love of God except for our own lack of love in return, our own failure to respond in faith, hope, and love.

So true!

 

[Mark Quayle]

I never heard about this before.

2 wills = 2 separate individuals.

Is God 2 separate individuals fighting? Or is He one person who is sneaky, hiding his true will, which is to get the majority to hell?

HOW does 2 wills mean 2 separate individuals?

Even we have 2 wills, in the same way. We tell our kids, don't eat that candy; so, thus we are not willing for them to eat that candy. But we had planned for them to eat that candy so they can learn early the results of disobedience; so, thus we are willing for them to eat that candy at that point.

It is not that God entertains two wills. It is a format for us to use to understand the two ways scripture refers to God's will.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Exactly. Why is he so long suffering if all it takes is a dip in the LOF to redeem someone? Doesn't make sense to me.



So true!

If I remember correctly, he was responding to my post, and I don't believe in Universalism; I don't believe he redeems anyone from the LOF.

 

[Andrewn]

HOW does 2 wills mean 2 separate individuals?

The only person who every had 2 wills is the Lord Jesus. But even in his case, the human will was so totally submitted to the Divine. Otherwise, there is no such a thing as one person with 2 wills. Even in multiple personality syndrome, my understanding is that the different personalities serve a single will.

We tell our kids, don't eat that candy; so, thus we are not willing for them to eat that candy. But we had planned for them to eat that candy so they can learn early the results of disobedience; so, thus we are willing for them to eat that candy at that point.

This is not an example of 2 wills. It is one will: do not eat the candy now, you can eat it later.

It is not that God entertains two wills. It is a format for us to use to understand the two ways scripture refers to God's will.

So what is the real / ultimate will of God regarding salvation?