Australia uses helicopters and the ARMY to enforce its 'Zero Covid' lockdown

[Tanj]

Sounds like liberals can be called conservative there.

What..because our conservatives go by the name "Liberal"?

 

[FireDragon76]

What..because our conservatives go by the name "Liberal"?

In the US, Democrats are generally liberals and mostly conservative (those notions are not contradictory except among the uninformed in the US).

Republicans would be called fascists in any other country. Not merely conservative, but also authoritarian and meeting most of the criteria that somebody like Umberto Eco has laid down for defining fascism. I doubt fascists get much play in Australia.

 

[Tanj]

In the US, Democrats are generally liberals and mostly conservative (those notions are not contradictory except among the uninformed in the US).

Republicans would be called fascists in any other country. Not merely conservative, but also authoritarian and meeting most of the criteria that somebody like Umberto Eco has laid down for defining fascism. I doubt fascists get much play in Australia.

My point is that it is a name, like "Republican", "Democrat" or "Fred". It doesn't refer to liberals, no matter how you define the word, it refers to one of the main political parties in Australia, in this case the conservative/right wing one.

 

[FireDragon76]

My point is that it is a name, like "Republican", "Democrat" or "Fred". It doesn't refer to liberals, no matter how you define the word, it refers to one of the main political parties in Australia, in this case the conservative/right wing one.

Words have meaning. Most Australian Liberals are committed to the classical liberal view of government.

Something similar is seen in Canada or Japan, the conservative party is called the "Liberal Party" there too, because their ideology is rooted in a similar political liberalism.

Conservativism, as articulated by the English statesman Edmund Burke, is less an ideology, and more an attitude towards the existing state of affairs. That's why a person can be both a conservative and yet politically liberal at the same time.

 

[Tanj]

Words have meaning

Proper noun meanings are incidental, regardless of what wikipedia says.

 

[coffee4u]

Words have meaning. Most Australian Liberals are committed to the classical liberal view of government.

Something similar is seen in Canada or Japan, the conservative party is called the "Liberal Party" there too, because their ideology is rooted in a similar political liberalism.

Conservativism, as articulated by the English statesman Edmund Burke, is less an ideology, and more an attitude towards the existing state of affairs. That's why a person can be both a conservative and yet politically liberal at the same time.

The Liberal and labour parties use to be more different but they have both moved positions quite a bit over the years. I wouldn't take too much notice of our party names.

 

[o_mlly]

Freedom OR safety? I didn't realise it was an either/or situation I was in.

You should realize that deciding which -- freedom or security -- has priority in the present circumstance is the decision one must always make. If you prefer safety, by all means get the vaccine, mask up and stay at home. If all Australians are alike and you are typical then I suppose you could expect all Australians to "endure" what you have prescribed for yourself. But not all Australians are alike, are they? Welcome to the real world.

As I read the article, the main issue, it seemed to me, was the not the above issues on controlling Covid19 but the right of people to associate and protest against a government mandate thought to be unjust. If Australia has laws regulating public displays of protest with which the group did not comply then some government force to insure compliance could be justified. Did the photos of the police and military men/women shown in the article have water pistols in those holsters? I think not.

 

[Bradskii]

You should realize that deciding which -- freedom or security -- has priority in the present circumstance is the decision one must always make. If you prefer safety, by all means get the vaccine, mask up and stay at home. If all Australians are alike and you are typical then I suppose you could expect all Australians to "endure" what you have prescribed for yourself. But not all Australians are alike, are they? Welcome to the real world.

As I read the article, the main issue, it seemed to me, was the not the above issues on controlling Covid19 but the right of people to associate and protest against a government mandate thought to be unjust. If Australia has laws regulating public displays of protest with which the group did not comply then some government force to insure compliance could be justified. Did the photos of the police and military men/women shown in the article have water pistols in those holsters? I think not.

I know you're a black and white type of person, so maybe freedom and security strikes you as being a decision between one or the other. But it's a balancing act. And some people will not be happy at where they see the fulcrum.

The vast majority of Australians appear to agree with me. That the measures in place are necessary. We're not as divided as those in the US appear to be.

And we treasure the right of people to associate and protest against whatever government is in power. We do it quite a lot and I've done my fair share. But there are temporary laws against this sort of protest for excellent reasons and the morons who deliberately ignored that are simply exacerbating the problem.

And if you saw any military involved in that demonstration, I'd like to see it. The defence force is only being used to check people in quarantine and they will not be armed. They're not being used for crowd control. They're not trained to do that. Maybe it's different where you live.

Our police are armed but that's as a matter of course. Apart from some scuffles (and a police horse getting punched - and the guy spent some time behind bars for that) there were no injuries worth mentioning. Again, your mileage may vary where you come from.

Incidentally, there were literally thousands of calls to the police by Joe Public giving ID for those they had seen at the demo. We're up to the back teeth with these idiots.

'Two more protesters from Saturday's anti-lockdown rally have been kept behind bars as police work through more than 15,000 calls from the public identifying those who went.' Man charged with punching police horse now refusing COVID-19 test

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

I know you're a black and white type of person, so maybe freedom and security strikes you as being a decision between one or the other. But it's a balancing act. And some people will not be happy at where they see the fulcrum.

The vast majority of Australians appear to agree with me. That the measures in place are necessary. We're not as divided as those in the US appear to be.

And we treasure the right of people to associate and protest against whatever government is in power. We do it quite a lot and I've done my fair share. But there are temporary laws against this sort of protest for excellent reasons and the morons who deliberately ignored that are simply exacerbating the problem.

And if you saw any military involved in that demonstration, I'd like to see it. The defence force is only being used to check people in quarantine and they will not be armed. They're not being used for crowd control. They're not trained to do that. Maybe it's different where you live.

Our police are armed but that's as a matter of course. Apart from some scuffles (and a police horse getting punched - and the guy spent some time behind bars for that) there were no injuries worth mentioning. Again, your mileage may vary where you come from.

Incidentally, there were literally thousands of calls to the police by Joe Public giving ID for those they had seen at the demo. We're up to the back teeth with these idiots.

'Two more protesters from Saturday's anti-lockdown rally have been kept behind bars as police work through more than 15,000 calls from the public identifying those who went.' Man charged with punching police horse now refusing COVID-19 test

Somewhat unrelated, what is the hangup with getting the vaccine in Australia? Looks like you are up to maybe 18%.

 

[Bradskii]

Somewhat unrelated, what is the hangup with getting the vaccine in Australia? Looks like you are up to maybe 18%.

Federal government dropped the ball in not getting sufficient vaccines. My wife and I booked our jabs as soon as they were available but we'll still not get the second one for another 4 weeks. So frustrating...

 

[Fantine]

They weren't arrested. They were subject to fines.

Demonstrators in the U.S. are frequently arrested.

The former president sent in the military to clear a peaceful protest so he could have a photo op with an upside down Bible.

 

[obscura]

Are you asking the crowd or the police?

There is a measure of balance between the freedom of the individual and the freedom of society. An overemphasis on individual freedom. If you apply some vector theory you realise that it is when we all pull in the same direction we achieve great things, and when we pull in all directions we get nowhere.

The state forcing people to go along with an idea en mass, despite it opposing their personal liberty and beliefs sounds pretty close to communism.

 

[o_mlly]

I know you're a black and white type of person, so maybe freedom and security strikes you as being a decision between one or the other. But it's a balancing act. And some people will not be happy at where they see the fulcrum.

Once one decides, the issue is rendered "black or white". Choose the color that better describes your choice. And, I'm not encouraging one choice over another. I am arguing that labeling those who choose freedom over safety may have a reasonable case.

 

[Philip_B]

The state forcing people to go along with an idea en mass, despite it opposing their personal liberty and beliefs sounds pretty close to communism.

I would perhaps understand it that the State is recognising a common enemy and asking us all to help in the war effort. The contribution they are asking of us is that we stay home, wear a mask, and get vaccinated.

To me this sound more like seeking the common good.

This is not a permanent arrangement, and whilst I acknowledge that Government has grown fond of revenue and information gathering, power and control, I also believe that they will want it to end as soon as possible, so that the people go go back to work for them. Most of us don't start earning money for ourselves till Tuesday Afternoon or Wednesday, and the Government has got their share.

During WW2 citizens had to observe brown out restrictions. The problem with Covid19 is guerilla warfare where we cannot see the enemy.

 

[Gene2memE]

The state forcing people to go along with an idea en mass, despite it opposing their personal liberty and beliefs sounds pretty close to communism.

' "Everything I Don't Like Is Communism" - A Child's Guide to Political Discourse in the USA'

In reality, governments govern. The driving duty of the state (read: government) is the protection of the welfare of its citizens. If the state fails in that duty, it has failed in totality. If the state cannot impose regulations to promote the general welfare, it is ineffective (and thus also a failure).

Every democracy - whether they have greater or lesser personal freedom than the US or not - has imposed lockdowns and other measures to deal with the coronavirus. Are you arguing that all of these countries are "pretty close to communism"?

 

[Paidiske]

Somewhat unrelated, what is the hangup with getting the vaccine in Australia? Looks like you are up to maybe 18%.

The whole vaccine rollout has been badly done. There's still whole groups of people who aren't even eligible. Eg. See here: When will I get a COVID-19 vaccine?

The state forcing people to go along with an idea en mass, despite it opposing their personal liberty and beliefs sounds pretty close to communism.

Communism is primarily about who owns property... not who gets to break public health orders during a state of emergency.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

The state forcing people to go along with an idea en mass, despite it opposing their personal liberty and beliefs sounds pretty close to communism.

Are you talking about the law that says you have to wear shirt and shoes in restaurants? Or the laws that say you can't drive when you're drunk?

 

[coffee4u]

I hope that drongo who punched a horse got arrested.

 

[Paidiske]

I believe he did. Although, frankly, he's really lucky the horse didn't kick him!

 

[Bradskii]

Once one decides, the issue is rendered "black or white". Choose the color that better describes your choice. And, I'm not encouraging one choice over another. I am arguing that labeling those who choose freedom over safety may have a reasonable case.

If the government said we can't leave our house then that would be unreasonable *. So let's say black. If they said that you can't travel outside the lockdown area, then that's reasonable. Colour that one white. If they say that if you go to the supermarket you have to wear a mask, then that's reasonable. Another white. If they say that you can't go to the supermarket until you've been vaccinated, then that's unreasonable. Pass the black pen, please.

Oh, and if they said that defence force personnel should be armed and used for crowd control then that's definitely black. And I don't mean that using the military in that way is unreasonable. I mean that even suggesting it is unreasonable.

So my choice is to balance the reasonable restrictions against the unreasonable ones. Hey, it looks a sort of grey colour now we've mixed in all the options.

* Although that happened to my wife and myself when she arrived in Australia from the UK. Two week lockdown and confined to barracks. Frustrating. But reasonable.