David Bentley Hart on Hell

[Clare73]

Do you know how many times Isaiah and other prophets used similar language regarding their national judgements? Because that's where you need to start in order to apply hermeneutics.
Are you forgetting that Jesus condemned the teachings of those scribes?

And yet he chose Paul, the Pharisee, to come up to the third heaven to receive his revelation
(2 Corinthians 12:1-5).

And he also confirmed their teaching on Isaiah 66:24, and its confirmation in Psalm 49:14.
(See post #313, previous page.)

Because he did not condemn all their teachings, just those in contradiction to the word of God written.

 

[Ceallaigh]

And yet he chose Paul, the Pharisee, to come up to the third heaven to receive his revelation
(2 Corinthians 12:1-5).

He was an ex-Pharisee turned apostle for Christ by then. When he was a practicing Pharisee he was persecuting Christ ("Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" Acts of the Apostles 9:4).

And he also confirmed their teaching on Isaiah 66:24.

Because he did not condemn all their teachings, just those in contradiction to the word of God written.

Sorry but Jesus condemning them over and over, isn't mitigated by Paul not condemning them. And there's no place where Paul said anything about eternal torment.

Then again, didn't Paul condemn those unenlightened blind guides for having their Messiah crucified? And didn't he condemn himself as well for persecuting Christians as one of them?

 

[Clare73]

He was an ex-Pharisee turned apostle for Christ by then.

He was hot on his way to kill Christians when Christ chose him on the road to Damascus.
Christ chose a Christian-murdering Pharisee.

When he was a practicing Pharisee he was persecuting Christ ("Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" Acts of the Apostles 9:4).

Sorry but Jesus condemning them over and over, isn't mitigated by Paul not condemning them. And there's no place where Paul said anything about eternal torment.

Agreed. . .

Paul has nothing to do with Jesus' clear and plain words in Mark 9:48, confirming Jewish received teaching on Isaiah 66:24 and Ps 44:19.

Sorry but Jesus condemning them over and over, isn't mitigated by Paul not condemning them. And there's no place where Paul said anything about eternal torment.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Agreed. . .

Paul has nothing to do with Jesus' clear and plain words in Mark 9:48, confirming Jewish teaching on Isaiah 66:24 and Ps 44:19.

Jesus didn't confirm the teachings of the scribes and Pharisees, He condemned their teachings and called them blind guides, while they were plotting to kill their Messiah. If they had been able to interpret Isaiah correctly, they wouldn't have had Jesus crucified.

 

[Clare73]

Do you know how many times Isaiah and other prophets used similar language regarding their national judgements? Because that's where one needs to start in order to apply hermeneutics.

Jesus didn't confirm the teachings of the scribes and Pharisees, He condemned their teachings and called them blind guides, while they were plotting to kill their Messiah. If they had been able to interpret Isaiah correctly, they wouldn't have had Jesus crucified.

It may be time for you to do some hermeneutical homework on the received OT teaching regarding Isaiah 66:24 and Psalm 44:19, which Jesus confirmed in Mark 9:48.

 

[Ceallaigh]

It may be time for you to do some hermeneutical homework on the received OT teaching regarding Isaiah 66:24 and Psalm 44:19, which Jesus confirmed in Mark 9:48.

I see you're in broken record mode, so there's no point in going in circles. Have a good one.

 

[Clare73]

I see you're in broken record mode, so there's no point in going in circles. Have a good one.

Yes, I do keep circling back to the plain content of Scripture. . .don't much like departing from it.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Yes, I do keep circling back to the plain content of Scripture.

Content that you said "probably means several things figuratively". I mean you're arguing with me over what I said, when you said the same thing yourself.

 

[Clare73]

Content that you said "probably means several things figuratively". I mean you're arguing with me over what I said, when you said the same thing yourself.

Agreed. . .

However, there were several views of death, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes, etc.

The Pharisees was the most widely accepted, and that is also the one Jesus confirmed in Mark 9:48, which view was Isaiah 66:24 confirmed in Psalm 44:19, and is explained in my post #313, previous page.

The Christian understanding from Jesus is that Jewish understanding.

The point of contention in Mark 9:48 is not the meaning of the worm or the meaning of the fire, what is denied is everlasting punishment and torment

However, the Scriptures states precisely that, and we have no authority to overturn it.

Ours is to believe and obey.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Agreed. . .

However, there were several views of death, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes, etc.

The Pharisees was the most widely accepted, and that is also the one Jesus confirmed in Mark 9:48, which view was Isaiah 66:24 confirmed in Psalm 44:19, and is explained in my post #313, previous page.

What does Psalms 44:19 have to do with Isaiah 66:24/Mark 9:48? I can't find any source linking them together like you're doing.

"But You have severely broken us in the place of jackals,
And covered us with the shadow of death." Psalms 44:19

The Christian understanding from Jesus is that Jewish understanding.

That would make it a man-made understanding of "blind guides" who defected from scripture.

"For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written." Romans 2:24

The point of contention in Mark 9:48 is not the meaning of the worm or the meaning of the fire, what is denied is everlasting punishment and torment

However, the Scriptures states precisely that, and we have no authority to overturn it.

Ours is to believe and obey.

Actually the mention of corpses and worms is a point of contention, because they are both symbolic of being dead rather than conscious existence. "and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Flesh indicates an Earthly state.

"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Isaiah 66:24

"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. For every one shall be salted with fire" Mark 9:48-49

This isn't as clear and precise as you want it to be. It's actually cryptic. Jesus was often purposely cryptic rather than precise, which is why He spoke in parables.

 

[JulieB67]

"Unquenchable fire" is not disputable. . .though some like to claim that it is.

Is Jerusalem still burning today? No. Unquenchable fire simply means "man" cannot put it out until it has served it's purpose. What does a fire do? It consumes. Both death and hell are destroyed in the lake of fire. This is biblical. God's not willing that anyone would even perish yet you think he will burn people for an eternity. Putting both of those statements together makes no sense.

This "man's doctrine" is one of the worst doctrines that have continued to drive people away from a loving God.

Do you really believe that someone who dies not being a Christian will burn for an eternity? For example, someone like Anne Frank? If you do, no offense but I feel as if you don't know God at all. The God of the Bible I know wouldn't.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Is Jerusalem still burning today? No. Unquenchable fire simply means "man" cannot put it out until it has served it's purpose. What does a fire do? It consumes. Both death and hell are destroyed in the lake of fire. This is biblical. God doesn't even want anyone to perish yet you think he will burn people for an eternity. Both those statements can't be right.

This "man's doctrine is one of the worst doctrines that have continued to drive people away from a loving God.

Do you really believe that someone who dies not being a Christian will burn for an eternity? For example, someone like Anne Frank? If you do, no offense but I feel as if you don't know God at all. The God of the Bible I know wouldn't.

Anne Frank is being punished with flaming eternal torment along with Adolf Hitler.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Do worms have everlasting life?

 

[JulieB67]

Anne Frank is being punished with flaming eternal torment along with Adolf Hitler.

Apparently, according to some.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Anne Frank is being punished with flaming eternal torment along with Adolf Hitler.

For being a fraud and a mediocre painter respectively.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

he will burn people for an eternity.

He will indeed. He will ignite the fire of passion for Him in the souls of those who were once His enemies, once His righteous deeds are revealed. For His ministers are flames of fire, and His servants will serve Him.

 

[Saint Steven]

He will indeed. He will ignite the fire of passion for Him in the souls of those who were once His enemies, once His righteous deeds are revealed. For His ministers are flames of fire, and His servants will serve Him.

It seems that those who pray for revival fire are praying down the "hellfire" on themselves unwittingly.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It seems that those who pray for revival fire are praying down the "hellfire" on themselves unwittingly.

Not-so-strange fire.

 

[Lazarus Short]

It seems that those who pray for revival fire are praying down the "hellfire" on themselves unwittingly.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Not "hellfire" but Godfire.

 

[Ceallaigh]