LDS Mountain Meadows Massacre: John D. Lee was a Scapegoat!

[LindaBerlin]

I could never believe in an unfair or unjust God, so how is it possible for me to believe anything else?

Not everything that is said or done "in the name of God" comes from God!

 

[LindaBerlin]

No assumptions at all, you do not believe in baptism for the dead or the preaching of the gospel to those spirits in spirit prison. That is a huge problem for me because I believe God is just and fair. He will judge according to the knowledge, situation, and the opportunity of each individual. Those who did not have that opportunity in this life will surely have it in the next. God is not a respecter of persons.

No one who knows the Bible, even in ancient Greek, would believe the stupidity of the baptism of the dead. For Paul did not speak for or against it, but used it as an example for people who performed this ritual (a living person lays under the bed of a deceased person) without believing in the Resurrection.

 

[LindaBerlin]

I have NO lack of trust in God, and I know He has provided a way for ALL of His children, even those who were not baptized in their lifetime, to be able to return to Him.

The evidence is obvious, and yet you refuse to accept it.

 

[He is the way]

No one who knows the Bible, even in ancient Greek, would believe the stupidity of the baptism of the dead. For Paul did not speak for or against it, but used it as an example for people who performed this ritual (a living person lays under the bed of a deceased person) without believing in the Resurrection.

Baptism is a necessary ordinance without which no one can enter the kingdom of God:

(New Testament | John 3:3 - 5)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That is why a just God would make that ordinance available for everyone, not just a few.

 

[LindaBerlin]

Baptism is a necessary ordinance without which no one can enter the kingdom of God:

(New Testament | John 3:3 - 5)

That is why a just God would make that ordinance available for everyone, not just a few.

Nowhere in the Bible does a prophet or apostle say, nor does Jesus say that one should be baptized for the dead!
On the contrary! Baptism was intended only and exclusively for living persons.
God and Jesus will already provide justice. No one who did not have the chance to be baptized will be lost. God will have other possibilities than baptism,

 

[He is the way]

Nowhere in the Bible does a prophet or apostle say, nor does Jesus say that one should be baptized for the dead!
On the contrary! Baptism was intended only and exclusively for living persons.
God and Jesus will already provide justice. No one who did not have the chance to be baptized will be lost. God will have other possibilities than baptism,

God has not changed His mind about baptism. He said what He said and He meant it. Baptism is indeed a necessary ordinance:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:18 - 22)

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

 

[LindaBerlin]

God has not changed His mind about baptism. He said what He said and He meant it. Baptism is indeed a necessary ordinance:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:18 - 22)

For the LIVING, not for the DECEASED people! Really, you should read the Bible in the original version (Aramaic and Ancient Greek). Then you would see that baptism for the dead is absolute nonsense for Mormons.
And God doesn't change? Then see and marvel:

For if you have been cut out of the naturally wild olive tree and grafted against nature/PARA- PHYSIN the noble olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? (Romans 11:14)

Even God acts unnaturally here, but since He is God, what He does cannot be a sin. But what do these words mean? What is really "natural", what is "unnatural"? Is it not more about the nature of the person concerned, which is natural or unnatural for him?
God speaks out against the unnatural, but here he himself acts unnaturally. What does that tell us? God is also changeable, as the situation requires. We humans should learn from it.

By the way, does your Bible quote come from the JS translation? The "Inspired" version?

 

[He is the way]

For the LIVING, not for the DECEASED people! Really, you should read the Bible in the original version (Aramaic and Ancient Greek). Then you would see that baptism for the dead is absolute nonsense for Mormons.
And God doesn't change? Then see and marvel:

For if you have been cut out of the naturally wild olive tree and grafted against nature/PARA- PHYSIN the noble olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? (Romans 11:14)

Even God acts unnaturally here, but since He is God, what He does cannot be a sin. But what do these words mean? What is really "natural", what is "unnatural"? Is it not more about the nature of the person concerned, which is natural or unnatural for him?
God speaks out against the unnatural, but here he himself acts unnaturally. What does that tell us? God is also changeable, as the situation requires. We humans should learn from it.

By the way, does your Bible quote come from the JS translation? The "Inspired" version?

It seems to me that the natural tree is about the Israelites and the wild branch is about the gentiles. The Gentiles were grafted into the natural tree (Israel).

Unless specified my Bible quotes are from the KJV. That is the version of the Bible we use. The JST is in the footnotes and one section dedicated to the JST.

 

[LindaBerlin]

It seems to me that the natural tree is about the Israelites and the wild branch is about the gentiles. The Gentiles were grafted into the natural tree (Israel).

Unless specified my Bible quotes are from the KJV. That is the version of the Bible we use. The JST is in the footnotes and one section dedicated to the JST.

The KJV was published in the Middle Ages. It has some grammatical and translation errors that JS had taken on for his Book of Mormon "Translation". Here are some examples from the wonderful book by J. and S. Tanner, "The Changing World of Mormonism":

KJV: he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still (Rev. 22:11)
BM: they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still (2 Nephi 9:16)
KJV: endured the cross, despising the shame (Heb. 12:2)
BM: endured the crosses of the world, and despised the shame (2 Nephi 9:18)
KJV: to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life (Rom. 8:6)
BM: to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life (2 Nephi 9:39) (p.119)

And here is another quote from that marvelous book (p. 124):

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 21:6).
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end" (3 Nephi 9:18).

The words Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. Apostle Bruce R. McConkie acknowledges this fact: "These words, the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet, are used figuratively ..." (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p.31).
The Greek language was used throughout the Roman Empire at the time of Christ; therefore, the New Testament was written in Greek and the words Alpha and Omega were well understood. The Nephites, however, were supposed to have left Jerusalem 600 years before the time of Christ, and therefore they would not have been familiar with these words. If Jesus had told the Nephites that He was "Alpha and Omega," it would have had absolutely no meaning to them. When the author of the Book of Mormon lifted these words from the book of Revelation he evidently did not realize that they were from the Greek language. Mormon writers maintain that the Book of Mormon "does not contain any of the numerous words in the New Testament that are of Greek origin" (Contents, Structure, And Authorship of the Book of Mormon, By J. N. Washburn, p.161). This idea is certainly incorrect.
The words Alpha and Omega are definitely of Greek origin. The Book of Mormon also contains the name Timothy (3 Nephi 19:4). Timothy is a Greek name and never appears in the Old Testament. In the same verse that we find the name Timothy we also find the name Jonas. Jonas is the New Testament name for Jonah and is found in Matthew 12:39. Joseph Smith seems to have been oblivious to the fact that the Book of Mormon contains Greek words. When it was suggested that the word Mormon came from the Greek, he stated: "This is not the case. There was no Greek or Latin upon the plates from which I, ... translated the Book of Mormon" (Times and Seasons, vol. 4, p.194). The appearance of Greek words in the Book of Mormon—especially the words Alpha and Omega—is another evidence that it is not an ancient record, but rather a modern composition.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I Cor 15:29 says, why do They ...

The word they indicates it is some group outside the Christian Church that practices baptism for the dead.

 

[He is the way]

The KJV was published in the Middle Ages. It has some grammatical and translation errors that JS had taken on for his Book of Mormon "Translation". Here are some examples from the wonderful book by J. and S. Tanner, "The Changing World of Mormonism":

KJV: he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still (Rev. 22:11)
BM: they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still (2 Nephi 9:16)
KJV: endured the cross, despising the shame (Heb. 12:2)
BM: endured the crosses of the world, and despised the shame (2 Nephi 9:18)
KJV: to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life (Rom. 8:6)
BM: to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life (2 Nephi 9:39) (p.119)

And here is another quote from that marvelous book (p. 124):

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 21:6).
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end" (3 Nephi 9:18).

The words Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. Apostle Bruce R. McConkie acknowledges this fact: "These words, the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet, are used figuratively ..." (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p.31).
The Greek language was used throughout the Roman Empire at the time of Christ; therefore, the New Testament was written in Greek and the words Alpha and Omega were well understood. The Nephites, however, were supposed to have left Jerusalem 600 years before the time of Christ, and therefore they would not have been familiar with these words. If Jesus had told the Nephites that He was "Alpha and Omega," it would have had absolutely no meaning to them. When the author of the Book of Mormon lifted these words from the book of Revelation he evidently did not realize that they were from the Greek language. Mormon writers maintain that the Book of Mormon "does not contain any of the numerous words in the New Testament that are of Greek origin" (Contents, Structure, And Authorship of the Book of Mormon, By J. N. Washburn, p.161). This idea is certainly incorrect.
The words Alpha and Omega are definitely of Greek origin. The Book of Mormon also contains the name Timothy (3 Nephi 19:4). Timothy is a Greek name and never appears in the Old Testament. In the same verse that we find the name Timothy we also find the name Jonas. Jonas is the New Testament name for Jonah and is found in Matthew 12:39. Joseph Smith seems to have been oblivious to the fact that the Book of Mormon contains Greek words. When it was suggested that the word Mormon came from the Greek, he stated: "This is not the case. There was no Greek or Latin upon the plates from which I, ... translated the Book of Mormon" (Times and Seasons, vol. 4, p.194). The appearance of Greek words in the Book of Mormon—especially the words Alpha and Omega—is another evidence that it is not an ancient record, but rather a modern composition.

The Book of Mormon was not written in Greek or English. I believe the equivalency of these words written or spoken were well understood by those who read or heard them.

 

[He is the way]

I Cor 15:29 says, why do They ...

The word they indicates it is some group outside the Christian Church that practices baptism for the dead.

The word "they" means it wasn't Paul doing the baptisms. Paul was called to preach the gospel, not to baptize:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 1:17)

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The Book of Mormon was not written in Greek or English. I believe the equivalency of these words written or spoken were well understood by those who read or heard them.

BOM was translated into English, and used King James English. The concept of filth and shame existed in Ancient Egypt.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The word "they" means it wasn't Paul doing the baptisms. Paul was called to preach the gospel, not to baptize:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 1:17)

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, save Crispus and Gaius; 15 lest any man should say that ye were baptized into my name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

People Paul Baptized:

16:13And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together. 14One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15and after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us. -Acts 16:13-15 ESV

16:25About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone’s bonds were unfastened. 27When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God. – Acts 16:25-34 ESV

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"
Clement of Alexandria lived from about AD 153 to 217. A native of Greece, he travelled the Christian world before settling in Egypt, where in the AD 190s he was the principal or dean of Christianity's foremost theological school and one of the most prominent Christian teachers of his age. He was well versed in the science of the day, in philosophy and in religion, including Christian sects. Among his writings against paganism and deviations from Christianity, he mentioned baptism for the dead as a tenet of a particular Gnostic sect.

“Gnostic” meant a person who claimed to possess a secret religious knowledge. The Gnostics were a strange species of Christians, if they were Christians at all. They believed that only the spirit is good and pleasing to God and that all matter is evil and death. The very origin of matter was evil and not from God. The Gnostic group encountered in the Excerpta ex Theodoto was that of one Theodotus, who taught that there were an original divine mother and father who gave birth to other spirit beings. Rebellious and envious, their youngest great-granddaughter attempted to imitate their action of producing spirit children. She did such a bad job that in addition to (good) soul and spirit she gave birth to (evil) matter. Her action created a separation from the first divine parents. Moreover, in some instances matter and spirit were mixed in such a way that particles of soul and spirit were trapped in material human bodies. Other particles of spirit escaped and continued in the purely spiritual form of angels. In order to liberate themselves from their bodily prisons of flesh and death to be reunited with the first parents (be saved), members of Theodotus' sect relied on absorbing a body of secret knowledge about angels, gods, and other spirit beings and about what was referred to as “baptism for the dead”.

Clement's Excerpta ex Theodoto relates that Theodotus’ Gnostics believed that the ones who are baptized in 1 Corinthians 15 are angels, spirit creatures who had escaped imprisonment in matter. Only pure spirit beings are truly alive and only they can begin the redemption process. The ones for whom they are baptized are human beings, whom Theodotus’ group considered to be dead due to being trapped in bodies of flesh. An angel must first be baptized in heaven on behalf of a “dead” human, followed by the human's own baptism on earth. Being prisoners of the flesh and the material world and dead to the spiritual, humans cannot start the process. According to Clement, 1 Corinthians 15.29 refers to this Gnostic concept. Neither Paul, Clement, nor the Gnostics taught that humans still in material bodies were baptized for deceased humans.

To Theodotus' Gnostics, “resurrection” meant that the soul is freed from the body and raised up to equality with the angels in a purely spiritual world, a world of true life with the original divine spirit parents. Note also that one of the main themes in 1 Corinthians 15 is the resurrection and incorrect views about it. It is not a discussion about baptism. It does touch on baptism for the dead but only secondarily to the resurrection of our material bodies; Paul mentions baptism for the dead only as part of an argument against the Gnostics' eccentric notions on the resurrection, in order to turn their theories against them.

"
Ancient Gnostic Heretics and Baptism for the Dead

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Early heresiologists Epiphanius of Salamis (Panarion 28) and Chrysostom (Homilies 40) attributed the practice respectively to the Cerinthians and to the Marcionites, whom they identified as heretical "Gnostic" groups.[1] For that reason, the practice was forbidden by the early Church, and is therefore not practiced in modern mainstream Christianity, whether Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or any Protestant churches.
Baptism for the dead - Wikipedia

 

[He is the way]

BOM was translated into English, and used King James English. The concept of filth and shame existed in Ancient Egypt.

The concept of being the first and the last can be written in any language.

 

[He is the way]

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, save Crispus and Gaius; 15 lest any man should say that ye were baptized into my name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Apparently Paul did not do baptisms for the dead, but did do a few for the living. He was called to preach the gospel, not to baptize.

 

[Rescued One]

There are only two births: natural and spiritual. Without the spiritual birth we can't understand spiritual things.

1 Corinthians 2
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


John 3
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Nicodemus had only one birth.