LDS Mountain Meadows Massacre: John D. Lee was a Scapegoat!

[LindaBerlin]

The issue at hand is that they attempted to end-run around their very own legal settlement, which is the kind of thing that establishes such an intent to distribute the judge could have used it to justify ordering them to shut their ministry down. That's how big a deal copyright law is in the US legal system.

Was the judge a Utah Mormon?

 

[He is the way]

Because I had met Sandra Tanner personally in 2012 during a lecture about her LDS experiences. By the way, the lecture covered, among other things, the Book of Mormon and the story of the Kinderhook plates.
Speaking about that plates:

Found this very informative website of critical Mormons:

Kinderhook Plates

From your article:
"It is difficult to determine if Smith was indeed duped or whether he simply realized that these plates were useful to bolster his story of gold plates as the source of the Book of Mormon, but what is clear is that the members of the LDS Church continued to hold to the belief that the plates were authentic, because they were difficult to dismiss without simultaneously dismissing Smith as a translator."

It has never been difficult for members of the church to recognize that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the Book of Mormon came from God through Joseph Smith. I believe that if the plates were authentic we would have a full transcript of them. We have the Pearl of Great Price which was given to us through Joseph Smith through the power of God. The proof is in the pudding so to speak.

Meeting Sandra Tanner is not proof she was not in it for the money, although having known her some through e-mail she seems like a nice person but sadly mixed up.

 

[LindaBerlin]

From your article:
"It is difficult to determine if Smith was indeed duped or whether he simply realized that these plates were useful to bolster his story of gold plates as the source of the Book of Mormon, but what is clear is that the members of the LDS Church continued to hold to the belief that the plates were authentic, because they were difficult to dismiss without simultaneously dismissing Smith as a translator."

The fact is that Joseph "I cheated them all" Smith "translated" some of the fake records, claiming that they were from a descendant of Ham. A slick lie destined to cheat Mormons like non-Mormons.
And, like Donald "I grab every [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" Trump, So was Joseph Smith, a man who didn't take the truth exactly, who spread "alternative facts."
Even Mormon leaders knows it!

It has never been difficult for members of the church to recognize that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the Book of Mormon came from God through Joseph Smith. I believe that if the plates were authentic we would have a full transcript of them. We have the Pearl of Great Price which was given to us through Joseph Smith through the power of God. The proof is in the pudding so to speak.

One of the plates was found. It has been tested, including by Mormons. And even Mormons came to the realization that the plates were a fake.
Smith could not translate, neither with nor without God's help. And one more thing: He claimed to speak several languages fluently, including German.
This, too, is a lie, as an article from the Warsaw Signal proves.
The fact is that Smith was a liar, manipulator and fraudster. And if Mormons are gullible, it's their problem!

Meeting Sandra Tanner is not proof she was not in it for the money, although having known her some through e-mail she seems like a nice person but sadly mixed up.

When you meet a person, you realize when you have some human knowledge and experience, what kind of person that person is.
I do not like everything about her, so she is a little too fanatical in her Christian faith; on the other hand, she is a wise woman who cares about the truth.
She was a devout Mormon, with questions. Questions that her church did not want or could answer. Instead, she should obediently believe every crap that Mormon leaders tell.
Then chaff separates from the wheat.
Either you become a gullible Mormon, or you continue to research until you find answers.

 

[He is the way]

The fact is that Joseph "I cheated them all" Smith "translated" some of the fake records, claiming that they were from a descendant of Ham. A slick lie destined to cheat Mormons like non-Mormons.
And, like Donald "I grab every [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" Trump, So was Joseph Smith, a man who didn't take the truth exactly, who spread "alternative facts."
Even Mormon leaders knows it!

From your second hand witness, and just how much did he translate, one word perhaps two? He thought they looked like characters that did have word meanings. It was NOT a proper translation. There was no proper translation of the Kinderhook plates.

One of the plates was found. It has been tested, including by Mormons. And even Mormons came to the realization that the plates were a fake.
Smith could not translate, neither with nor without God's help. And one more thing: He claimed to speak several languages fluently, including German.
This, too, is a lie, as an article from the Warsaw Signal proves.
The fact is that Smith was a liar, manipulator and fraudster. And if Mormons are gullible, it's their problem!

No one is saying that the plates were not fake. Later in life Joseph Smith did learn some Hebrew, Latin, Greek, and German. Who said he was fluent in any of these languages?

When you meet a person, you realize when you have some human knowledge and experience, what kind of person that person is.
I do not like everything about her, so she is a little too fanatical in her Christian faith; on the other hand, she is a wise woman who cares about the truth.
She was a devout Mormon, with questions. Questions that her church did not want or could answer. Instead, she should obediently believe every crap that Mormon leaders tell.
Then chaff separates from the wheat.
Either you become a gullible Mormon, or you continue to research until you find answers.

I have yet to see any criticism strong enough to keep me from believing that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. My great great grandfather knew Joseph Smith well and knew of his prophetic abilities. He also knew what kind of person he was and described him thusly:

"In regard to his private life, as to purity, honesty, virtue, charity, benevolence, liberality, refined and sensitive feelings and nobility of character, his superior did not exist on earth."

 

[LindaBerlin]

@He is the way

Your answers and comments show me that you are a typical Mormon with dissonance management. That is why I will no longer respond to your contributions. I'm fed up with LDS lies, twists and cover-ups.

 

[He is the way]

@He is the way

Your answers and comments show me that you are a typical Mormon with dissonance management. That is why I will no longer respond to your contributions. I'm fed up with LDS lies, twists and cover-ups.

I know there were people who left the church over the white salamander letter by Mark Hoffman before they found out it was a forgery. One of my neighbor's sisters was killed by Mark Hoffman. The Tanners even believed it was a forgery before it was known to be one. The church may have even purchased some of Mark Hoffman's work. His forgery's were very good. They are worth quit a bit of money today. I am not sure if anyone left the church over the Kinderhook plates. I found this in depth article about the Kinderhook plates on the internet:

Did Joseph Smith Translate the Kinderhook Plates? | Religious Studies Center

It was interesting that Joseph Smith was also given an object resembling a bell to be translated.

 

[Ironhold]

I wrote a manuscript about the life and teachings of Joseph Smith from 1996-1997. It is over 230 pages long. I showed the manuscript four months after the end of some Mormons in Berlin. A month later I received mail from Frankfurt, the German headquarters of the LDS. In it, I was accused of violating copyright because, without the permission of the LDS, I quoted from their books. Books, some of which were over 100 years old. Books that were freely available for sale at Deseret Books, such as the life story of Joseph Smith, written by his mother Lucy Mack Smith.
The Mormon leadership uses copyright to silence critics, to let them buckle for fear of the money and power of the LDS.

Define "quoted".

Everything you're saying hinges on that.

How long were the passages you cited?

 

[BigDaddy4]

The issue at hand is that they attempted to end-run around their very own legal settlement, which is the kind of thing that establishes such an intent to distribute the judge could have used it to justify ordering them to shut their ministry down. That's how big a deal copyright law is in the US legal system.

Another sleight of hand distraction from you. Not surprised. You hide behind a potential copyright violation to dismiss the content of their criticisms of your religion. You can't defend their positions, so you attack their character.

 

[He is the way]

Another sleight of hand distraction from you. Not surprised. You hide behind a potential copyright violation to dismiss the content of their criticisms of your religion. You can't defend their positions, so you attack their character.

There has not been a good rational criticism offered yet. The Kinderhook plates were never translated, so where is there any real criticism that will stand up to scrutiny?

 

[BigDaddy4]

Everything you're saying hinges on that.

No, it doesn't. Please save the drama for your newspaper readers.

 

[BigDaddy4]

There has not been a good rational criticism offered yet. The Kinderhook plates were never translated, so where is there any real criticism.

You are blinded by your faith in Joseph Smith. To accept his failures as a prophet and a man, you would have to dismiss your great great grandfather's view of him. LDS family ties like that are tough to overcome, but it can be done once you realize the actual truth about JS and your religion.

 

[He is the way]

You are blinded by your faith in Joseph Smith. To accept his failures as a prophet and a man, you would have to dismiss your great great grandfather's view of him. LDS family ties like that are tough to overcome, but it can be done once you realize the actual truth about JS and your religion.

I could never believe in an unfair or unjust God, so how is it possible for me to believe anything else?

 

[BigDaddy4]

I could never believe in an unfair or unjust God, so how is it possible for me to believe anything else?

And who are you to judge God as "unfair" or "unjust"? You make a lot of bad assumptions to come to those conclusions.

 

[He is the way]

And who are you to judge God as "unfair" or "unjust"? You make a lot of bad assumptions to come to those conclusions.

No assumptions at all, you do not believe in baptism for the dead or the preaching of the gospel to those spirits in spirit prison. That is a huge problem for me because I believe God is just and fair. He will judge according to the knowledge, situation, and the opportunity of each individual. Those who did not have that opportunity in this life will surely have it in the next. God is not a respecter of persons.

 

[BigDaddy4]

No assumptions at all, you do not believe in baptism for the dead or the preaching of the gospel to those spirits in spirit prison. That is a huge problem for me because I believe God is just and fair. He will judge according to the knowledge, situation, and the opportunity of each individual. Those who did not have that opportunity in this life will surely have it in the next. God is not a respecter of persons.

The bold are your bad assumptions and therefore you lack trust in God. God will judge those who may not have heard the Gospel according to His will. Scripture already tells us that people have this life to choose (Hebrews 9:27, Luke 16, among others). You cannot force His will by altering it to please your unbelief and lack of trust in Him.

 

[He is the way]

The bold are your bad assumptions and therefore you lack trust in God. God will judge those who may not have heard the Gospel according to His will. Scripture already tells us that people have this life to choose (Hebrews 9:27, Luke 16, among others). You cannot force His will by altering it to please your unbelief and lack of trust in Him.

I have NO lack of trust in God, and I know He has provided a way for ALL of His children, even those who were not baptized in their lifetime, to be able to return to Him.

 

[LindaBerlin]

Define "quoted".

Everything you're saying hinges on that.

How long were the passages you cited?

In my manuscript, I quoted from books written by Mormons and/or published by the Church. Books by Lucy Mack Smith and Bruce R. McConkie, as well as History of the Church and Journal of Discourses, for example.
The quotes were different. Sometimes a few sentences, sometimes whole sections or pages. As an author, it is always important to me not to distort the core or meaning of a statement, or to change it by omitting it. Because the LDS Church and its authors have done this very often!
Because of my quotes, the LDS Church wanted me not to publish my manuscript, because the facts damage their image. Here is a brief citation example:

"The day will come, ladies and gentlemen, whether they belong to the Church or not, where they will look up to (Joseph Smith) as if to a God." (Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, 5:88)

And here's another quote:

"Whoever confesses that Joseph Smith was sent by God... whose spirit is of God; and every spirit who does not confess that God sent Joseph Smith and revealed the eternal gospel to him and through him is of the anti-Christian..." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 176)

These quotations show two things: On the one hand, Joseph is "always horny" Smith equated with God; and on the other hand, anyone who rejects Smith's "divine vocation" is called an anti-Christian. Typical way of thinking of a destructive cult!

 

[LindaBerlin]

Another sleight of hand distraction from you. Not surprised. You hide behind a potential copyright violation to dismiss the content of their criticisms of your religion. You can't defend their positions, so you attack their character.

This is the usual practice in sects and cults.
Dr. Michael Quinn, for example, was an LDS historian and gay. The LDS leadership knew this; but let him grant, because he delivered what they wanted. Then he wrote books that revealed lies of LDS history, and suddenly they didn't like him anymore. He was excommunicated as part of the "September Six" and because he was gay.
By the way, Quinn wrote a remarkable book about homosexuality in the 19th century, with a particular perspective on Mormons.
It emerged, for example, that one of Joseph Smith's counselors was bisexual, sleeping with both women and men (John C. Bennett), who was gay as the leader of the Tabernacle Choir (Evan Stephans), and a descendant of Brigham Young loved to stroll through the streets of Salt Lake City as "Madam Pattirini" (Brigham Morris Young).

 

[LindaBerlin]

You are blinded by your faith in Joseph Smith. To accept his failures as a prophet and a man, you would have to dismiss your great great grandfather's view of him. LDS family ties like that are tough to overcome, but it can be done once you realize the actual truth about JS and your religion.

During the lifetimes of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, there were many diary entries about both. Some were positive, others negative. It depends, among other things, on whether you were a believer or a doubting Mormon or a non-Mormon.

 

[LindaBerlin]

There has not been a good rational criticism offered yet. The Kinderhook plates were never translated, so where is there any real criticism that will stand up to scrutiny?

It is proven by Clayton that Joseph had translated "I cheated the people" Smith at least four of the records" . Did Clayton lie? What motive would he have for a lie?