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LDS Mountain Meadows Massacre: John D. Lee was a Scapegoat!

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Old Lady, Nov 26, 2020.

  1. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Clement of Alexandria was a theologian not a prophet of God. He never claimed to be a prophet and therefore was giving his opinion. That being said there are Christian churches that practice baptism for the dead:

    "Other Christian churches
    As part of their sacraments, the New Apostolic Church and the Old Apostolic Church also practice baptism for the dead, as well as Communion and Sealing to the Departed. In this practice a proxy or substitute is baptised in the place of an unknown number of deceased persons. According to NAC and OAC doctrine the deceased do not enter the body of the substitute."

    From: Baptism for the dead - Wikipedia
     
  2. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    That would prove that baptism is not needed for salvation :)

    There is no record that anyone in the Church did Baptism for the dead.
     
  3. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    "And the tradition I heard of says that this is why the same holy apostle said, “If the dead rise not at all, why are they baptized for them?”31 But others explain the text satisfactorily by saying that, as long as they are catechumens, the dying are allowed baptism before they die because of this hope, showing that the
    person who has died will also rise, and therefore needs the forgiveness of
    his sins through baptism.
    6,6 Some of these people have preached that Christ is not risen yet,
    but will rise together with everyone; others, that the dead will not rise at
    all.32 (7) Hence the apostle has come forward and given the refutation of
    both these groups and the rest of the sects at once on < the subject of
    resurrection >. And in the testimonies that he gave in full he produced the
    sure proof of the resurrection, salvation and hope of the dead (8) by saying, “This corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put
    on immortality,”33 and again, “Christ is risen, the fi rstfruits of them that
    slept.”34 This was to refute both kinds of sects at once and truly impart the
    unsullied doctrine of his teaching to anyone who wanted to know God’s
    truth and saving doctrine"
    https://gnosis.study/library/Критик...lamis - The Panarion, Book I (Sects 1-46).pdf

    "
    1 Corinthians 15:29
    Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for the dead?

    He takes in hand again another topic, establishing what he said at one time from what God does , and at another from the very things which they practice. And this also is no small plea for the defense of any cause when a man brings forward the gainsayers themselves as witnessing by their own actions what he affirms. What then is that which he means? Or will you that I should first mention how they who are infected with the Marcionite heresy pervert this expression? And I know indeed that I shall excite much laughter; nevertheless, even on this account most of all I will mention it that you may the more completely avoid this disease: viz., when any Catechumen departs among them, having concealed the living man under the couch of the dead, they approach the corpse and talk with him, and ask him if he wishes to receive baptism; then when he makes no answer, he that is concealed underneath says in his stead that of course he should wish to be baptized; and so they baptize him instead of the departed, like men jesting upon the stage. So great power has the devil over the souls of careless sinners. Then being called to account, they allege this expression, saying that even the Apostle has said, They who are baptized for the dead. Do you see their extreme ridiculousness? Is it meet then to answer these things? I trow not; unless it were necessary to discourse with madmen of what they in their frenzy utter. But that none of the more exceedingly simple folk may be led captive, one must needs submit to answer even these men. As thus, if this was Paul's meaning wherefore did God threaten him that is not baptized? For it is impossible that any should not be baptized henceforth, this being once devised: and besides, the fault no longer lies with the dead, but with the living. But to whom spoke he, Unless you eat My flesh, and drink My blood, you have no life in yourselves? John 6:53 To the living, or to the dead, tell me? And again, Unless a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:5 For if this be permitted, and there be no need of the mind of the receiver nor of his assent while he lives, what hinders both Greeks and Jews thus to become believers, other men after their decease doing these things in their stead?

    But not to prolong fruitless toil in cutting asunder their petty spiders' webs , come let us unfold unto you the force of this expression. What then is Paul speaking of?

    2. But first I wish to remind you who are initiated of the response , which on that evening they who introduce you to the mysteries bid you make; and then I will also explain the saying of Paul: so this likewise will be clearer to you; we after all the other things adding this which Paul now says. And I desire indeed expressly to utter it, but I dare not on account of the uninitiated; for these add a difficulty to our exposition, compelling us either not to speak clearly or to declare unto them the ineffable mysteries. Nevertheless, as I may be able, I will speak as through a veil."
    CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 40 on First Corinthians (Chrysostom)

    "Marcionite definition, a member of a Gnostic ascetic sect that flourished from the 2nd to 7th century"
     
  4. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    "The New Apostolic Church (NAC) is a chiliastic Christian church that split from the now defunct Catholic Apostolic Church during an 1863 schism in Hamburg, Germany." New Apostolic Church - Wikipedia

    "The founder of the Apostolic Church in South Africa, Carl George Klibbe was born on 24 December 1852 in Pomerania at the Baltic Sea, and was a Preacher in the Lutheran Church when he had contact with the Apostolic Doctrine in a town named Schladen, in Germany where he met Heinrich Niemeyer for the first time It was years later in 1886,"
    Old Apostolic Church - Wikipedia

    "The Catholic Apostolic Church was a religious movement which originated in England around 1831 and later spread to Germany and the United States." Catholic Apostolic Church - Wikipedia

    Referencing other well known cults that do not go back to the original church is just funny and does not prove anything.

    The person I quoted represents what the early church taught. As such disproves LDS theology on this matter.
     
  5. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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  6. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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  7. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    The Bible states that baptism is a necessary ordinance.
     
  8. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Baptism for the dead was done in the temple. The temple was destroyed in 70 CE. That ended baptism for the dead until it was restored.
     
  9. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Then Paul was being disobedient.
     
  10. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    I too like a good Joke, but that claim is sacrilegious.

    Leviticus 21:1
    King James Version
    21 And the Lord said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them, There shall none be defiled for the dead among his people:

    Ezekiel 44:25
    King James Version
    25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.

    Leviticus 11:31
    These are unclean to you among all that creep: whosoever doth touch them, when they be dead, shall be unclean until the even.

    "
    A body of a dead human being polluted not only those that touched it, but also the dwelling, its inmates, and all uncovered utensils (Num. xix. 14 et seq.). A person made unclean by a corpse was required to be sprinkled with water on the third and the seventh day thereafter, and to bathe and wash his clothes on the seventh day (Num. xix. 19). It was a sacred duty to bury a corpse; and even the priests, with the exception of the high priest, were permitted to defile themselves by the dead bodies of their nearest kin (Lev. xxi. 2, 3, 11). The Nazarites, however, were required to keep away from all corpses (Num. vi. 6). Yet the Nazarite Samson ate honey which he had taken out of the carcass of a lion (Judges xiv. 9), since only the human body could be the source of uncleanness in others (Num. xix. 22). During the forty years in the wilderness, those polluted by touching human corpses were put out of the camp (Num. v. 2), nor could they partake of the Passover sacrifice or any other offerings (ix. 6). Even those polluted in battle must be purified (xxxi. 19). Not to bury a corpse was considered the greatest disrespect that could be shown to the dead (Jer. viii. 2; Ps. lxxix. 2, 3), although in time of war this was necessarily a frequent circumstance. The law demanded the burial of a condemned person (Deut. xxi. 23), this applying even to the bones of those who had been executed in vengeance (II Sam. xxi. 13). The Egyptians were experts in embalming; but in Palestine, where little was known of the art, bodies were removed as quickly as possible from the houses (compare Amos vi. 10; see Burial). Places where human bones accumulated, such as Tophet in the valley of Hinnom, near Jerusalem, were held to be especially polluted, and therefore horrible. "High places" were defiled by human bones more than by all else (II Kings xxiii. 14).

    "
    CORPSE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

    Numbers 9:10
    Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the Lord.

    Matthew 23:27
    Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
     
  11. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Acts 9:36-38
    And again at Joppa
    Then there was a woman in Joppa, a disciple called Tabitha, whose name in Greek was Dorcas (meaning Gazelle). She was a woman whose whole life was full of good and kindly actions, but in those days she became seriously ill and died. So when they had washed her body they laid her in an upper room. Now Lydda is quite near Joppa, and when the disciples heard that Peter was in Lydda, they sent two men to him and begged him, “Please come to us without delay.”

    1 Peter 3:17-22
    If it is the will of God that you should suffer it is really better to suffer unjustly than because you have deserved it. Remember that Christ the just suffered for us the unjust, to bring us to God. That meant the death of his body, but he came to life again in the spirit. It was in the spirit that he went and preached to the imprisoned souls of those who had been disobedient in the days of Noah—the days of God’s great patience during the period of the building of the ark, in which eventually only eight souls were saved in the flood. And I cannot help pointing out what a perfect illustration this is of the way you have been admitted to the safety of the Christian “ark” by baptism, which means, of course, far more than the mere washing of a dirty body: it means the ability to face God with a clear conscience. For there is in every true baptism the virtue of Christ’s rising from the dead. And he has now entered Heaven and is at God’s right hand, with all angels, authorities and powers subservient to him.
     
  12. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Sort Answer there is no record in Jewish sources that there was baptism for the dead in the Second Temple. That is just redickious.
     
  13. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    No Paul was called to preach the gospel, not to baptize for the dead.
     
  14. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    They are baptized FOR the dead, not baptizing THE dead.
     
  15. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    There is this:

    (New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:29)

    29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
     
  16. LindaBerlin

    LindaBerlin Member

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    Paul spoke of all, non-Christians and Christians, who practiced this "baptism of the dead" but did not believe in the resurrection and a life after death. It was his rhetorical introduction to talk about the subject.
     
  17. LindaBerlin

    LindaBerlin Member

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    According to Joseph "always horny" Smith, the writing on the gold plates was a "reformed Egyptian". Only, at the time when the Book of Mormon is set (about 600 BC to 430 A.D.), there was no Reformed Egyptian.
    Your so-called "prophet" is once again convicted as a liar and deceiver, because according to Kurt Sethe, a scientist, the ersher reform of the Egyptian language did not arise until the 1st century BC. More about the Reformed Egyptian of him in his article published in German:

    https://www.coptica.ch/Sethe_Reform.pdf
     
  18. LindaBerlin

    LindaBerlin Member

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    Have you ever read the whole chapter? And the chapters before that? If so, you didn't understand. If not, please read it.
    For me, so much ignorance of the facts is hard to bear. And amusing how you try to get out.
     
  19. LindaBerlin

    LindaBerlin Member

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    On the subject of baptism of the dead (translated from a German website):

    This baptism takes place - depending on the translation of the preposition "hyper" - over the dead, i.e. over their graves, or for the dead, i.e. in the sense of a deputy baptism. A baptism above the tombs might have the purpose of strengthening the belief in resurrection. However, it could be done in a body of water, as is customary according to the NT (see Mark 1,9-11 par.; Acts 8,24-26 and others). In addition, the preposition "hyper" in the NT usually does not have the local meaning "over". It is therefore more likely that there is talk of a vicarious baptism with the aim of imparting salvation. However, the question arises as to why he refers to such a strange custom. An answer can be found by making clear the essential difference between ordinary baptism and vicarious baptism. Ordinary baptism, in Paul's opinion, conveys salvation to the living beyond death. In concrete terms, it causes the revival of the dead. The baptism of a dead person through the baptism of a deputy conveys salvation exclusively to a dead person. If one adheres to the words of Paul, salvation can be determined as an enabler to awaken. The raising is what Paul matters; therefore he cannot refer to ordinary baptisms, because the resurrection deniers could then again refer to the healing effects of baptism with regard to the present life and deny the resurrection.
    Source: 1 Kor 15,29-34 - Erster Korintherbrief - Der erste Brief des Paulus an die Korinther - Auslegung und Bibliographie zur Bibel
     
  20. LindaBerlin

    LindaBerlin Member

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    Hereby I give you the first l*** prize for ignorance and do not want to know.
     
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