• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

LDS Mountain Meadows Massacre: John D. Lee was a Scapegoat!

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Old Lady, Nov 26, 2020.

  1. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,395
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    The Danites were a fraternal organization founded by Latter Day Saint members in June 1838, in the town of Far West, Caldwell County, Missouri. During their period of organization in Missouri, the Danites operated as a vigilante group and took a central role in the events of the 1838 Mormon War. There is no evidence that the Danites existed after 1838. However, they remained an important part of Mormon and non-Mormon folklore, polemics, and propaganda for the remainder of the 19th century, waning in ideological prominence after Utah gained statehood. Notwithstanding public excommunications of Danite leaders by the Church and both public and private statements from Joseph Smith referring to the band as being both evil in nature and a "secret combination" (a term used in the Book of Mormon to signify corruption within a group of people like gangs, organized crime, and politics), the nature and scope of the organization and the degree to which it was officially connected to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are a matter of some dispute among historians.[citation needed] Earlier in the band's existence, Joseph Smith appeared to endorse the group's actions, but later turned against them as violence increased and the actions of the Danites inspired a hysteria in Missouri that eventually led to the Extermination Order. According to an essay on the website of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, "Historians generally concur that Joseph Smith approved of the Danites but that he probably was not briefed on all their plans and likely did not sanction the full range of their activities."[1]
    1838 Mormon War - Wikipedia

    Thelma Geer, a great-granddaughter of John D. Lee, wrote:

    LOVE THY NEIGHBOR TO DEATH

    Let's begin with an examination of a sermon by Brigham Young where he described a rather vivid dream he had had the night before:

    Then I saw two ruffians. . . and they crept into a bed, where one of my wives and children were . . . I took my large bowie knife, that I used to wear as a bosom pin in Nauvoo, and cut one of their throats from ear to ear, saying, “Go to hell across lots.” The other one said, “You dare not serve me so.” I instantly sprang at him, seized him by the hair of the head, and, bringing him down, cut his throat, and sent him after his comrade; then told them both, if they would behave themselves they should yet live, but if they did not, I would unjoint their necks. At this I awoke.

    I say, rather than that apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath my bowie knife, and conquer or die. [Great commotion in the congregation, and a simultaneous burst of feeling, assenting to the declaration.] Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put to the line, and righteousness to the plummet. [Voices, generally, “go it, go it.“] If you say it is right, raise your hands. [All hands up.] Let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work.
    Brigham Young
    Journal of Discourses Volume 1, Page 83
    Thelma Geer, Mormonism, Mama, & Me, p.101-102

    Mormon Endowment Ceremonies.jpeg

    REALLY? This stuff must be outdated:

    A person must repent prior to baptism.

    How would my mother and sister ( or my 8-yr.-old brother)know if something was a sin? None of them read the Bible.


    And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.
    (D&C 20:37)

    But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.
    (2 Nephi 31:14)
    Official Mormon Doctrine – Beggar's Bread



    In Mormonism, the oath of vengeance (or law of vengeance) was part of the endowment ritual of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). Participants swore an oath to pray for God to avenge the blood of prophets Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith, who were assassinated in 1844. The oath was part of the ceremony from about 1845 until the early 1930s.

    The officiant of the ritual enjoined the participants as follows: "You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will pray and never cease to pray to Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets upon this nation, and that you will teach the same to your children and to your children's children unto the third and fourth generation."[1]
    Oath of vengeance - Wikipedia

    Well, you can read about the trial of John D. Lee.for his part in the murders of several men, women, and children. Are you interested?
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

    +350
    United States
    Mormon
    Married
    Beggar’s Bread is a rag tag collection of articles by Fred W. Anson and his friends on a potpourri of subjects that interest us, that we’re passionate about, about which we can maintain the highest levels of scholarship we’re capable of, and most importantly, can write about in a way that brings glory to God and gives Him pleasure.

    We realize that there are no self-made men – if we’ve achieved anything in life it’s because we stand on the shoulders of giants – and life itself is gift. If you find us flawed we won’t disagree and only hope you can forgive us for we too are sinners saved by grace and doing the best we can as we stumble through this passage.

    In the end we agree with Martin Luther’s last written words, “We are all beggars: This is true.” as well as 20th century Methodist minister and missionary D.T. Niles who, expanding on Luther, said:
    “A Christian witness is not like a rich man who has a lot of bread which he hands out to the poor beggars who have nothing. He is rather like one beggar who tells another beggar where he has found bread.”

    From: About Beggar’s Bread

     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  3. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

    +1,422
    Mormon
    Single
    For those who are new here, I often recommend author Norman F. Furniss' "The Mormon Conflict: 1850 - 1859" as it deals with a lot of popular conspiracy theories regarding the church in that time period. Furniss wasn't afraid to lay blame on both sides as merited, and he is far more thorough than many alleged "histories" that critics of the church like to lean on.

    Furthermore, Oxford University Press produced one edition of the book, which should make it clear that it's not a "pro-Mormon" work.
     
  4. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,395
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    That has no relation to what I posted. "Beggar's Bread" is a common phrase used by many people.

    For instance, Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual could just as well have been given the title "Achieving Eternal Life"or "Becoming a God." Not all phrases have identical definitions.

    Prospective members are given a Book of Mormon and asked to read it.This is not taught in the Book of Mormon:

    “God was once a man who, by obedience, advanced to his present state of perfection; through obedience and celestial marriage we may progress to the point where we become like God….God Became God by Obedience to Law….If God became God by obedience to all of the gospel law with the crowning point being the celestial law of marriage, then that’s the only way I can become a god.”
    Mormon Doctrine Not Found in the Book of Mormon
     
  5. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,395
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    Mormon settlers didn't move west. They were driven. But their patience had limits.
    Inglorious Arizona: John Lee, scapegoat of a bloody Mormon massacre

    John Doyle Lee (September 6, 1812 – March 23, 1877) was an American pioneer and ... He said he had been a vocally reluctant participant and later a scapegoat meant to draw attention away from other Mormon leaders who were also ...
    John D. Lee - Wikipedia

    Lee and the other leaders swore that they would never reveal their parts in the massacre, and Lee himself told Brigham Young that the Paiutes had been responsible for it—an explanation that became the official position of the LDS church for generations. In a report to Congress, Major Carleton blamed Mormon militiamen and church leaders for the massacre. Young excommunicated both Lee and Haight for their roles, but only Lee faced charges. After a first trial ended in a mistrial, Lee was convicted in 1877 and sentenced to death by firing squad.

    Lee claimed that he was a scapegoat, and that other Mormons were more directly involved in the planning and in the killing. And although he maintained at first that Young was unaware of the massacre until after it took place, Lee would later state, in his Life and Confessions of John D. Lee, that the massacre occurred “by the direct command of Brigham Young.” And on the morning of his execution, Lee would write that Young was “leading the people astray” and that he was being sacrificed “in a cowardly, dastardly manner.”
    The Aftermath of Mountain Meadows | History | Smithsonian Magazine.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  6. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

    +350
    United States
    Mormon
    Married
    Both links took me to the "Beggar's Bread" website.
     
  7. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

    +350
    United States
    Mormon
    Married
    I believe that Lee did believe that Brigham Young ordered the massacre. I believe that is what he was told, but it was a lie.
     
  8. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,395
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    I'm sorry. I read that wrong. What you posted was about the site, but not about the information I quoted. Why don't you address what I quoted instead of changing subjects?
     
  9. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,395
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    Yes, many Mormons defend their prophets and don't get their throats slit, but you can't prove that Brigham Young was a nice guy. There is evidence to the contrary.
     
  10. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

    +350
    United States
    Mormon
    Married
    Moses was not a nice guy either.
     
  11. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,395
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    Moses didn't spew the amount of violent hatred that Brigham Young did.
     
  12. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

    +350
    United States
    Mormon
    Married
    Brigham Young did not kill anyone like Moses did. Do you believe that Moses did not kill?

    (Old Testament | Exodus 32:26 - 28)

    26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
    27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
    28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
     
  13. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,395
    United States
    Protestant
    Widowed
    I know what Moses did. Yet you criticized the Catholics for the Inquisition.

    You don't know how many Brigham Young wanted dead besides his adopted son, or how many men were convinced by him to kill apostates and those who opposed Mormonism.
     
  14. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

    +350
    United States
    Mormon
    Married
    Moses did not torture people with all manner of devices. The inquisition was cruel and wicked. Neither was the judgements at that time righteous. It was NOT of God.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2020
  15. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

    +1,422
    Mormon
    Single
    As Furniss notes in his aforementioned work, Young trusted the people down in Iron County enough that he took them at his word, opting to ignore whatever prompts he may have had otherwise to investigate; he was busy trying to deal with what everyone thought was an invading army, and this was one less thing to handle.

    A copy of Young's orders for the militia to stand down has been discovered, and it's right where it should be in the books where Young made copies of his orders.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • List
  16. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

    +2,095
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    So?
     
  17. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

    +2,095
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    How would you know it was a lie since we were not there?
     
  18. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

    +2,095
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Utah Lighthouse Ministry: Topical Index A-G

    "There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world."

    "" Let me suppose a case. Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands. But you who trifle with your covenants, be careful lest in judging you will be judged."
    Brigham Young Blood Atonement Sermon: Journal of Discourses Vol. 3, p.243-249
     
  19. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

    +2,095
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    I think the whole point of this line of reasoning is simple. If one group does bad things that makes them wrong doctrine wise. If another group does bad things that would make them also have wrong doctrine. One can have correct doctrine and do bad things. There are examples of people doing bad things among LDS, Catholic and Protestants. The tests of true doctrine is Scripture aka the Bible. Also, History of Doctrines and Church Fathers comes into play. Theologians also comes into play too. So, lets get back on topic of what is true doctrine.

    Praying for and with everyone here,
    Daniel
     
  20. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

    +2,095
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    I am laughing if you are talking about Mountain Meadows Massacre. They were simply peaceful travelers, maybe on their way to the gold rush or a better place to call their own.
     
Loading...