Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

[muichimotsu]

It was not a positive stereotype that he spoke of.

But you agree that stereotypes are not necessarily helpful in social interactions, correct?

 

[muichimotsu]

Whattt??? To adopt another culture is not cultural adoption? Umm… Yes it is; hence the term used!

No, you're dishonestly skewing the term in a way that might apply to non ethnic cultures, but in terms of ethnic cultures, it isn't something you adopt, because it isn't like enjoying trucks or trains or video games, it's a lived experience that doesn't exist in a vacuum at all

Do all Japanese involved in their culture don Shinto Priests robes? If not, why would you expect me to do so in order to adopt the culture? Is it possible for a Japanese person come to this country and adopt American culture in your view?

Again, you're using adoption in a way that doesn't apply equally to all cultures, so it's muddying the waters and justifying cultural appropriation in contrast to acculturation or assimilation. A Shinto priest's robes are culturally significant, it doesn't have to be donned by all Japanese, just as a Native American headdress is not something just any Native American can wear, but is still something that is significant in that manner which a person outside of that culture appropriating is unconscionable.

And a Japanese person can incorporate into American culture, like, say, George Takei, but he was technically born into American culture, unlike his father, who was born in Japan. His father didn't adopt American culture, he had to live in it to become acculturated, he didn't appropriate the culture because he was a minority that had to become acculturated to be remotely accepted by a prejudiced country that regarded Japanese as potential traitors merely because they were Japanese.[/QUOTE]

 

[Ken-1122]

The problem is the "average person" is not defined in a vacuum societally and can reflect race in terms of biased treatment.

I’m saying the standard should not be based on those who are mistreated, but those who are treated fairly

White people are given more leeway in what they can get away with by law enforcement for one example,

All white people are given more leeway than ALL black people? By ALL law enforcement? Even the black cops? Is this your claim?

to say nothing of a wealth more representation in pretty much every aspect of society,

Such as? Where are white people represented that black people are not; in this society?

so people of color otherwise are essentially left with little to follow as an example of their own race and only are able to think of themselves in terms of how "white" they can behave

Wow! Do you not see the bigotry in that statement? Do you really see us that way? I will bet I can name as many if not more Black hero's that I can look up to than you can name white hero's that you can look up to.

If they go to the college, they don't have some protection against being offended:

I’m not talking about being offended, I’m talking about racial discrimination.

Except this wasn't common treatment,

It doesn’t have to be common treatment; racial discrimination is not allowed even if it is done one day per year.

Pretty sure I said neither of those things in terms of some absolute standard: the fact that white people can also be on welfare does not preclude biased treatment by society at large in terms of the same kinds of crimes

You said when welfare is cut, it is black families that are harmed the most. You were wrong.

Yet again, you take the stats at face value instead of considering that, with white people having higher numbers, a per capita analysis is more accurate versus just the flat numbers

Even when you look at a per capita basis; white people on welfare 38.8% Black people on welfare 39.8%. Practically the same. Again; you were wrong.

You think there's been a study on all these things?

So this is just another one of your empty claims that you are becoming known for? Bruh! if ya wanna be taken seriously, you need to do better than this.

Again, he can incorporate into the culture, adoption is not doable because it would generally be considered something you're raised in, not that you move into.

Whether you use the word adopt, incorporate, assimilate, or whatever verb you choose to use, my point is there is nothing stopping one from taking on the traditions, and beliefs, of a different social group

 

[muichimotsu]

I’m saying the standard should not be based on those who are mistreated, but those who are treated fairly

It's not either/or, acknowledging privilege means also considering those that are marginalized by that societal bias, they're 2 sides of the same coin

All white people are given more leeway than ALL black people? By ALL law enforcement? Even the black cops? Is this your claim?

No, but I'd argue there is a bias in some sense, though it will also vary, because it's a societal thing and can be conditioned out or into someone that is exposed to various things over their lifetime. Like how I had and still do to an extent, a bias about Native Americans, because of my limited exposure to them and thus ignorance about their cultures and such.

Such as? Where are white people represented that black people are not; in this society?

It's not a complete absence of representation, it's a disproportionate representation, I think I made that fairly clear

Wow! Do you not see the bigotry in that statement? Do you really see us that way? I will bet I can name as many if not more Black hero's that I can look up to than you can name white hero's that you can look up to.

Yet who gets more recognition in history classes? That's a fundamental problem I didn't even think of until a black man brought it up: white people have it so easy by comparison in referencing so much in American history in particular, let alone world history with majority white European countries like UK, etc. Are you going to say every black person will be able to know about these people or will it be somewhat difficult because there isn't fair representation in education about black history, barring February, which is a token gesture at best

I don't see "you" or blacks that way, I'm pointing out what I observe, which is not the same as a statement of fact, because there are different experiences, yet it doesn't seem to suggest anything as idyllic as you seem to claim

I’m not talking about being offended, I’m talking about racial discrimination.

And that entails offense by its nature, especially once you recognize it. But sometimes you don't and yet ti still has a negative effect, because you're marginalized by a culture that doesn't regard your opinion the same way if it doesn't fit into white standards about what is "appropriate"

It doesn’t have to be common treatment; racial discrimination is not allowed even if it is done one day per year.

And yet this isn't intended in that fashion, you keep defending white supremacy effectively in the idea that whites should never have to even experience something comparable to what black people did as a proof of concept within sociology and experiment to show this privilege.

You said when welfare is cut, it is black families that are harmed the most. You were wrong.

It could still be accurate because, you're yet again, taking the stats in a way that ignores per capita representation versus sheer total gross numbers.

Even when you look at a per capita basis; white people on welfare 38.8% Black people on welfare 39.8%. Practically the same. Again; you were wrong.

White people on welfare have a different experience, are you going to say otherwise without substantiating it? Are you also going to claim black people on welfare have the same experience as white people on welfare or are regarded the same way? There's still a common thread of racism that suggests black people "had it easy" when they got social welfare assistance, particularly around the 60s.

So this is just another one of your empty claims that you are becoming known for? Bruh! if ya wanna be taken seriously, you need to do better than this.

I didn't make an absolute claim, this is a discussion, not a dissertation for scholarship, you're taking this so seriously that it baffles the mind that you can conclude anything if you don't have some study for it rather than making, *gasp* provisional statements

Whether you use the word adopt, incorporate, assimilate, or whatever verb you choose to use, my point is there is nothing stopping one from taking on the traditions, and beliefs, of a different social group

Yet there isn't a freedom from consequences, that's the important distinction. People can claim they're free, but they're not, especially in society where there are consequences for being socially inappropriate

 

[Junia]

There is such a thing as egregious cultural appropriation to different degrees.

And there are also absurd claims of cultural appropriation. IMO, people get to like things. A white guy wearing dreds doesn't bother me; people get to like things. A white woman wearing braids doesn't bother me; people get to like things.

There was a famous white hair stylist who claimed to have invented Zune curls...that did bother me. OTOH, back in the 80s, Paul Simon openly acknowledged that he found the inspiration for the album that revived his career in African music during his visit to Africa. He even film some videos with one of those African groups and produced a couple of albums for them. That didn't bother me.

But I think you have to look hard to find anyone who has actually suffered any permanent damage from accusations of "cultural appropriation," and it's nowhere near being declared criminal. It's really only effective to the degree one's has based one's image on Twitter. Outside the Twitterverse, it's mostly a nothingburger.

I

Well said, thank you! Agree 100%

 

[Junia]

Your sexual orientation is arguably inborn, your behavior is distinct in the choice about using it

As for Dunning-Kruger, I'm not doing the research for you, I'll point you in the direction with this rough definition, "a cognitive bias in which people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability." In this case, it's your idea about knowing things about a subject and unfortunately being overconfident in how certain you are on that.

as someone who is of Jewish and gypsy ancestry and basically part Asian, I cannot speak for what white supremacists think. I am no more linked to their culture than I am to black culture

I live in the UK, and yes Asian people (my own Romany people myself) do suffer incidental racism same as the Irish and East Europeans do.

system racism

 

[Junia]

Systemic racism, is more something experienced by blacks from whites in the UK.

All racism is wrong and of course the xenophobia against Chinese people is terrible but with blacks they are denied hoauing, Jon opportumities, face daily risk of violence because of their skin colour.

They have had centuries of oppression and therefore the generational trauma they have experienced is much deeper entrenched.

I consider using things for! East Asian culture as no different from! Using things from Irish culture

 

[Junia]

and I don't see many people getting offended by non Irish people dressing up in green and drinking Guinness every St Patrick's Day.

I can see why blacks would find blackface offensive. it has been rife in the UK. Black people were dehumanised by whites for centuries....

There is no comparison to chopsticks in the hair or geisha costumes to blackface. Geisha and chopsticks are no different from wearing a lederhosen if you're not from Austria.

I think the above are cultural sharing and fine. I have no issue with people dressing like gypsies or Jews as long as they aren't doing it in a mocking way

Although I think anyone can be a character from fiction because they not dressing specifically as a person of that race but a character who happens to be that race. Or a certain celebrity because I admire them? No one would have an issue with me dressing up as Ella Fitzgerald or Dionne Warwick or Michael Jackson because I like their music. As long as I didn't wear blackface doing it, which I would never do

 

[Junia]

As a Christian I a against racism but I would think being free to share different cultures is fine

Go far back enough in anyone's family tree and we all are a !is of cultures and nationalities...

off course of someone told me they are offended by my wearing a geisha costume or a lederhosen or something was offensive them is apologise and stop wearing it.

 

[Ken-1122]

It's not either/or, acknowledging privilege means also considering those that are marginalized by that societal bias, they're 2 sides of the same coin

Again it’s not privilege when you are being treated the way the law requires you to be treated.

No, but I'd argue there is a bias in some sense, though it will also vary, because it's a societal thing and can be conditioned out or into someone that is exposed to various things over their lifetime.

It’s just that you made it seem as if this was the case for all cops and all white people.

It's not a complete absence of representation, it's a disproportionate representation, I think I made that fairly clear

You said “a wealth of more representation in every aspect of society” Care to back that up? Or am I just expected to take your word for it.

Yet who gets more recognition in history classes? That's a fundamental problem I didn't even think of until a black man brought it up: white people have it so easy by comparison in referencing so much in American history in particular,

Really? It’s kinda hard to accomplish something worthy of history classes when your life has been regulated to that of a slave! But thank-you “Captain Obvious” for pointing out slaves rarely made history in this country.

I don't see "you" or blacks that way,

Then why did you say it? You said (paraphrasing) black people are only able to think of themselves in terms of how “white” they can behave. If you don’t believe this about black people, why did you make such an absurd offensive statement? Did black people come tell you this is how they see themselves? I don’t think so, I doubt black people are going to approach you, a self described “pasty privileged white guy” (your description of yourself not mine) telling you that they think of themselves in terms of how “white” (whatever that’s supposed to mean) they can behave; especially when you consider how many popular accomplished black people in the real world that black, white, brown, and any other color of person can look up to

And that entails offense by its nature, especially once you recognize it. But sometimes you don't and yet ti still has a negative effect, because you're marginalized by a culture that doesn't regard your opinion the same way if it doesn't fit into white standards about what is "appropriate"

Give an example of a white standard of what’s appropriate that is different from a black standard of what is appropriate.

And yet this isn't intended in that fashion, you keep defending white supremacy effectively in the idea that whites should never have to even experience something comparable to what black people did

Nobody should have to experience anything comparable to what black people did

White people on welfare have a different experience, are you going to say otherwise without substantiating it?

How is it different?

I didn't make an absolute claim,

Then you should have made it clear that this was only your opinion that black people only have supporting roles in the entertainment industry; because when I look at the real world of TV stars, movie stars, athletes, singers, rappers, authors, etc I see plenty of black people standing out front. I’ll admit we don’t do very well in the professional community (doctors, lawyers, CEO’s Scientists, etc) but in the entertainment industry, you gotta be blind to not see how many of us are out there

 

[muichimotsu]

as someone who is of Jewish and gypsy ancestry and basically part Asian, I cannot speak for what white supremacists think. I am no more linked to their culture than I am to black culture

I live in the UK, and yes Asian people (my own Romany people myself) do suffer incidental racism same as the Irish and East Europeans do.

system racism

No one is claiming systemic racism is exclusive to one race, in America it's merely that black people suffer a great deal because of how they were treated for over 2 centuries under the Atlantic slave trade that America participated in

 

[muichimotsu]

Again it’s not privilege when you are being treated the way the law requires you to be treated.

The law is not always applied impartially, that's the fundamental problem that, while not able to be solved perfectly, can be addressed by people considering that there is racial profiling that happens, people have negative stereotypes about non white people that you see seemingly all the time with racist rants on camera, etc, from concerned citizens filming the entitled white people who have an axe to grind against people they see as a "threat"

It’s just that you made it seem as if this was the case for all cops and all white people.

Even people with good intentions can have benevolent prejudice, a concept that didn't even occur to me in the phrasing given, but it works given the hegemonical dominance white people have had for centuries in America, especially anglo saxons versus other white Europeans that were treated with a different kind of prejudice, more xenophobic than racist, because they were white, but not "loyal" to American culture

You said “a wealth of more representation in every aspect of society” Care to back that up? Or am I just expected to take your word for it.

If you're skeptical, by all means show that, per capita and with sound statistics, that black people are actually given even remotely fair treatment in terms of marketing a film versus fitting them into stereotypes even in leading roles

Really? It’s kinda hard to accomplish something worthy of history classes when your life has been regulated to that of a slave! But thank-you “Captain Obvious” for pointing out slaves rarely made history in this country.

I'm talking about black history at the point around the Emancipation proclamation. Kids don't even learn about, say, the first black person to serve in Congress or other important figures that kids can look up to: they get the stereotypes that white people will constantly pull up because they haven't heard of anything outside of what white culture presented to them as black people who aren't "ghetto" or "gangster". I feel ashamed to have not known about, for instance, John Lewis, someone who continued MLK Jr.'s work after his death, the last of the Big 6, iirc, to have passed away this year. He was out of Georgia, in my neck of the woods, me in TN myself.

Then why did you say it? You said (paraphrasing) black people are only able to think of themselves in terms of how “white” they can behave. If you don’t believe this about black people, why did you make such an absurd offensive statement? Did black people come tell you this is how they see themselves? I don’t think so, I doubt black people are going to approach you, a self described “pasty privileged white guy” (your description of yourself not mine) telling you that they think of themselves in terms of how “white” (whatever that’s supposed to mean) they can behave; especially when you consider how many popular accomplished black people in the real world that black, white, brown, and any other color of person can look up to

It's only offensive if you try to make this about your perception of it instead of the dominant idea, even implicitly, that white is the norm people have been exposed to and black people, unfortunately, are held to those standards in terms of being a person that doesn't make white people uncomfortable.

If they are going to attack me for being white, then they are arguably attacking a group based on prejudice, perhaps, but to say they are the same as white people having their reactions based on worse stereotypes about people of color is absurd, they are the product of a white dominant society that alienates black people

Fundamentally, you only claim that BECAUSE you're aware of them, but not all black people have that opportunity necessarily and to act like that is the case would require you to have absolute knowledge instead of admitting statistical variability in what you could present versus the representation of ALL black people's lived experiences since even just the 60s

Give an example of a white standard of what’s appropriate that is different from a black standard of what is appropriate.

I don't claim there is a black standard of appropriateness, especially given that they are still relegated to particular stereotypes even today (Tyler Perry's movies come to mind as another more prominent example). And for white appropriateness, how about the style of hair that appears to be more common for black people and can be perceived, ignorantly, as something savage or ethnic that white people often have no basis or knowledge about (myself included). Or the idea that black women are too hysterical and angry all the time (See the Tyler Perry example, among others in the last 50 years of black women)

Nobody should have to experience anything comparable to what black people did

Sometimes that's the only way someone can recognize their privilege, similar to an example I saw on a TV show clip where white people took more steps forward in terms of their lived experience and thus a status of privilege versus what were mostly people of color, bringing up a problem of equality instead of equity in policy and sociological ideas in general

How is it different?

They're not called lazy necessarily, they're treated like they deserve it for "hard work" or other excuses, and any accusations of laziness could easily get a retort about their ancestors working hard to get where they were. Except that was the norm 100 years ago and white people could get ahead in life while black people often fell through the cracks. Or is that inaccurate historically?

Then you should have made it clear that this was only your opinion that black people only have supporting roles in the entertainment industry; because when I look at the real world of TV stars, movie stars, athletes, singers, rappers, authors, etc I see plenty of black people standing out front. I’ll admit we don’t do very well in the professional community (doctors, lawyers, CEO’s Scientists, etc) but in the entertainment industry, you gotta be blind to not see how many of us are out there

Pretty sure I didn't say only supporting roles, I said that was more common, we have black actors as leads, but it's about as common as a good video game adaptation into film.

Even if that is somewhat accurate, are you saying there's no stereotypes that black entertainers are fitting into because that's the only way they GET ahead? Similar to black athletes, since the implication would be that they can't get ahead if they get a college education itself, they have to fall back on athletics to even get scholarships, or at least that seems more common than for white athletes

 

[Junia]

this thread has certainly been very interesting

 

[muichimotsu]

this thread has certainly been very interesting

And I'll fully admit I am no kind of expert in this, but am willing to acknowledge that my positions are provisional in nature and cannot be reduced to the kind of scientific precision some people may want, because this is not only in the social sciences, but also relies a lot on statistics, which are not necessarily as precise as other forms of mathematics to my understanding.

 

[Ken-1122]

If you're skeptical, by all means show that, per capita and with sound statistics, that black people are actually given even remotely fair treatment in terms of marketing a film versus fitting them into stereotypes even in leading roles

You made the claim, it is your job to up port that claim; otherwise your argument fails.

I'm talking about black history at the point around the Emancipation proclamation. Kids don't even learn about, say, the first black person to serve in Congress or other important figures that kids can look up to: they get the stereotypes that white people will constantly pull up because they haven't heard of anything outside of what white culture presented to them as black people who aren't "ghetto" or "gangster". I feel ashamed to have not known about, for instance, John Lewis, someone who continued MLK Jr.'s work after his death, the last of the Big 6, iirc, to have passed away this year. He was out of Georgia, in my neck of the woods, me in TN myself.

Kids of today aren’t looking up at historical figures, or political leaders; that’s what us old guys look up to. Kids of today are looking up at people like Lebron James, Idris Elba, Michael B Jordan, Kevin Hart and countless others who maintain the spotlight today.

Fundamentally, you only claim that BECAUSE you're aware of them,

You think I’m the only black person aware of people like Lebron James, Idris Elba, Michael B Jordan, or Kevin Hart? You joking right?

I don't claim there is a black standard of appropriateness,

Oh so only white people have standards of what is or is not appropriate; black people have no such standards at all? David Duke would be so proud of you. You try to play yourself off as pro-black/anti-white, but every now and then the black bigotry sorta slips out.

especially given that they are still relegated to particular stereotypes even today (Tyler Perry's movies come to mind as another more prominent example).

You call Tyler Perry’s movies offensive stereotype of black people? Are you aware black people love Tyler Perry’s movies? If his movies were offensive to us, he wouldn’t be so popular to black people! Consider the possibility that you are completely out of touch with what black people find offensive.

And for white appropriateness, how about the style of hair that appears to be more common for black people and can be perceived, ignorantly, as something savage or ethnic that white people often have no basis or knowledge about (myself included).

What hair style are you talking about? And is there a reason you use the terms ethnic and salvage as if they are the same?

Or the idea that black women are too hysterical and angry all the time (See the Tyler Perry example, among others in the last 50 years of black women)

Black women are stereotyped as hysterical and angry? Ever heard of a Karen? When is the last time you heard of a black woman referred to as a Karen? (hint; never only hysterical and angry white women are referred to that way) The fact that they actually have a name for the typical angry white woman; something that eludes you… perhaps you’re out of touch with white people too!

They're not called lazy necessarily, they're treated like they deserve it for "hard work" or other excuses,

What kinda hard work do white people have to do to get welfare?

and any accusations of laziness could easily get a retort about their ancestors working hard to get where they were. Except that was the norm 100 years ago and white people could get ahead in life while black people often fell through the cracks. Or is that inaccurate historically?

I’ve had white people tell me the opposite; that they are treated like they have no excuse when they fail to succeed. When black people fail or are poor, they can blame racism, or the white man or keeping them down, but when white people fail they are treated like they have no excuse for failure. I’ve heard this claim from white people

Even if that is somewhat accurate, are you saying there's no stereotypes that black entertainers are fitting into because that's the only way they GET ahead?

I don’t know of any cases when this has happened; do you?

 

[muichimotsu]

You made the claim, it is your job to up port that claim; otherwise your argument fails.

I can find an article, I'm pretty confident you're going to dismiss it out of hand, this isn't something we can just show in the vein of natural science, you're expecting WAY too much precision from the social sciences

Kids of today aren’t looking up at historical figures, or political leaders; that’s what us old guys look up to. Kids of today are looking up at people like Lebron James, Idris Elba, Michael B Jordan, Kevin Hart and countless others who maintain the spotlight today.

B.s., you can't reduce this to purely modern examples, even if they can and do inspire black kids, and that's a good thing in itself, but it doesn't mean they are the only ones, or even remotely represented to the same degree as white people. If you're all about the numbers, can you find numbers in regards to black entertainers versus white alone, to say nothing of other factors for consideration

You think I’m the only black person aware of people like Lebron James, Idris Elba, Michael B Jordan, or Kevin Hart? You joking right?

I'm syaing not every black person necessarily is as aware as you think or they don't really see themselves in those examples, especially since, interestingly, you only cited black males, so what are black females supposed to do? Do you have a similar amount of examples for them?

Oh so only white people have standards of what is or is not appropriate; black people have no such standards at all? David Duke would be so proud of you. You try to play yourself off as pro-black/anti-white, but every now and then the black bigotry sorta slips out.

In terms of hegemony, white people, unfortunately have the standard in terms of that appropriateness, even if it doesn't make logical sense or it's a double standard (white ladies can be emotional, but black ladies take it "too far")

I'm saying black people are likely going to be conditioned by the white majority's ideas and not necessarily something that is theirs or even fair minded in general, which is the underlying issue for race relations, white people don't care about other races unless it inconveniences them, and even then, they'll try to insist, "I'm not racist," while showing the very racist privilege they benefit from as a white person

You call Tyler Perry’s movies offensive stereotype of black people? Are you aware black people love Tyler Perry’s movies? If his movies were offensive to us, he wouldn’t be so popular to black people! Consider the possibility that you are completely out of touch with what black people find offensive.

I didn't claim to know what all black people find offensive and you claiming some enjoy it or even a majority doesn't detract from the argument that can be made by black people who consider the problems of those stereotypes. You realize there's such a thing as benevolent prejudice, as well as the fact that Perry retired the character a few years ago, right?

And it's not like popular support indicates anything about the beneficial nature claimed for the stereotypes that other black celebrities have criticized, Spike Lee coming to mind from an immediate search on this issue. Not to mention black people can have internalized racism, a whole other subject that's more introspective than the considerations of societal norms and reinforcing them through entertainment and the like

What hair style are you talking about? And is there a reason you use the terms ethnic and salvage as if they are the same?

Dreadlocks are the immediate example, though I'm pretty sure there are others. And my mistake, I misspoke, the stereotype is that they are ethnic in the sense of it being a savage culture or such, not that ethnic has to be synonymous with savage by any necessity

Black women are stereotyped as hysterical and angry? Ever heard of a Karen? When is the last time you heard of a black woman referred to as a Karen? (hint; never only hysterical and angry white women are referred to that way) The fact that they actually have a name for the typical angry white woman; something that eludes you… perhaps you’re out of touch with white people too!

Oh, you'd be surprised, they do exist and I'd know, I've been watching Karen related YT videos on and off the last few days. Though part of the issues is what even is counted and whether there isn't an underlying mental health issue with these women, likely in the erratic personality disorder cluster.

I don't claim to be a typical white person, but there really isn't white culture, there's specific cultures like Irish, English, Swedish, etc, white culture is just the status quo of a culture that treats whites like they're always heroes and never seems to want to acknowledge their shortcomings until recently.

And just because hysterical black women don't have a name you're aware of doesn't mean a quick search doesn't bring it up: there are at least 3 stereotypes that are exceptionally common, the Mammy, Sapphire and Jezebel, the submissive, the sassy and the sexual. Guess which one fits into the angry black woman stereotype?

What kinda hard work do white people have to do to get welfare?

You've answered your own question, they don't have to, it's arguably easier and by your own stats, it's more common for them in part because society treats them more favorably on that, not questioning whether they're lazy or anything.

I’ve had white people tell me the opposite; that they are treated like they have no excuse when they fail to succeed. When black people fail or are poor, they can blame racism, or the white man or keeping them down, but when white people fail they are treated like they have no excuse for failure. I’ve heard this claim from white people

And that's the issue, white people internalize this idea that they cannot be unsuccessful or successful because of something outside their control and thus continues the systemic racism denial by making it purely about them and their hard work and not systemic problems that favor them over others. Just because white people aren't always successful doesn't detract from the argument that there is privileged and biased treatment towards whites, it's ignoring the hits and emphasizing the misses

When white people are held to that unrealistic standard, you think it might have its origin in part with the unrealistic idea that white people are superior and should never fail, especially if you consider lines of thought like, "Europeans were just better at conquering, we won't apologize for that,"

I don’t know of any cases when this has happened; do you?

Neither of us necessarily knowing doesn't invalidate the argument, that's an appeal to ignorance fallacy on its face. Maybe if we asked the black actors about this and whether they felt they had to fit into these stereotypes?

 

[Ken-1122]

I can find an article, I'm pretty confident you're going to dismiss it out of hand, this isn't something we can just show in the vein of natural science, you're expecting WAY too much precision from the social sciences

If you have an article that provides evidence that black people have less leading roles in the entertainment industry, find it.

B.s., you can't reduce this to purely modern examples,

Of course I can, that’s what we’re talking about; what’s going on TODAY!

even if they can and do inspire black kids, and that's a good thing in itself,

Whether you want to judge it as good or bad is irrelevant; the point is there are plenty of black people in today’s entertainment industry for kids to look up to. My point stands.

but it doesn't mean they are the only ones, or even remotely represented to the same degree as white people. If you're all about the numbers, can you find numbers in regards to black entertainers versus white alone, to say nothing of other factors for consideration

I have no numbers, I base my views on what I see in movies, music, sports, etc. What are you basing your views on?

I'm syaing not every black person necessarily is as aware as you think or they don't really see themselves in those examples, especially since, interestingly, you only cited black males, so what are black females supposed to do? Do you have a similar amount of examples for them?

When I look at movies, music, and sports, I see black women on equal footing as white females.

In terms of hegemony, white people, unfortunately have the standard in terms of that appropriateness,

I’m going to just take this a another unsupported opinion of yours okay? (Obviously I don’t agree)

I'm saying black people are likely going to be conditioned by the white majority's ideas and not necessarily something that is theirs or even fair minded in general,

Any examples of this happening today? Or do I throw this one on top of that pile of unsupported opinions you’ve been accumulating lately?

I didn't claim to know what all black people find offensive and you claiming some enjoy it or even a majority doesn't detract from the argument that can be made by black people who consider the problems of those stereotypes. You realize there's such a thing as benevolent prejudice, as well as the fact that Perry retired the character a few years ago, right?

"Madea" is a comedy about a black woman. Anytime you have a comedy about someone, it is going to cast them in a comical light. You seem to find this offensive when blacks are cast this way but don't mind whites cast this way. The more opportunities for movies you take away from black people due to sensitivity, the less black people you will see in movies. If you had your way, there would be very few roles available for black people with most of the roles going to whites due to the diversity of acting they are allowed to do, then you would look at the few black actors and call THAT racism! IMO even if you got your way, you still wouldn't be satisfied.

Dreadlocks are the immediate example, though I'm pretty sure there are others.

White people love dreadlocks! There are even plenty of white people who put dreadlocks in their hair! Care to try again?

You've answered your own question, they don't have to,

NOBODY has to work in order to get welfare; your argument failed.

And that's the issue, white people internalize this idea that they cannot be unsuccessful or successful because of something outside their control and thus continues the systemic racism denial by making it purely about them and their hard work and not systemic problems that favor them over others. Just because white people aren't always successful doesn't detract from the argument that there is privileged and biased treatment towards whites, it's ignoring the hits and emphasizing the misses

When white people are held to that unrealistic standard, you think it might have its origin in part with the unrealistic idea that white people are superior and should never fail, especially if you consider lines of thought like, "Europeans were just better at conquering, we won't apologize for that,"

You said white people are not chastised for failure due to white supremacy, but black people are. Now you are changing it claiming white people are held to a higher standard due to white supremacy. Which is it? Does white supremacy force white people to be better? Or does it allow them to be comfortable in a state of failure?

Neither of us necessarily knowing doesn't invalidate the argument, that's an appeal to ignorance fallacy on its face. Maybe if we asked the black actors about this and whether they felt they had to fit into these stereotypes?

If neither of us have any way of knowing if it is true or not, neither of us have any business bringing it into the conversation as if the claim might actually have merit.

 

[muichimotsu]

If you have an article that provides evidence that black people have less leading roles in the entertainment industry, find it.

This study brings up representation more recently, from early to mid 2010s, the minority representation for leads averaging out to maybe 14%, which isn't that great, especially if that combines black and other minorities, which makes the specific numbers much tougher to suss out (because I doubt the companies are keeping this in mind, since the status quo was just white majority anyway, esp. in old Hollywood)

https://socialsciences.ucla.edu/wp-...A-Hollywood-Diversity-Report-2018-2-27-18.pdf

Of course I can, that’s what we’re talking about; what’s going on TODAY!

This assumes they are the only ones that matter when there are older examples of black people that should be brought up because of how they fit into history, not just whitewashed nonsense that barely acknowledges black people

Whether you want to judge it as good or bad is irrelevant; the point is there are plenty of black people in today’s entertainment industry for kids to look up to. My point stands.

"Plenty" is a subjective assessment that assumes there are equal representatives in all disciplines for that group, which is a similar problem with females in STEM, among other examples, like entertainment leads, the study also looking into that

I have no numbers, I base my views on what I see in movies, music, sports, etc. What are you basing your views on?

Pretty much the same thing, so you can't really make any claims that are somehow factual in the sense you hold others to as to the state of racial equity

When I look at movies, music, and sports, I see black women on equal footing as white females.

You can see things and be mistaken in that assessment, you have to demonstrate how this is the case beyond your anecdotal experiences

I’m going to just take this a another unsupported opinion of yours okay? (Obviously I don’t agree)

I'm a white person, you think I don't have experience of how white people will judge black people at all?

Any examples of this happening today? Or do I throw this one on top of that pile of unsupported opinions you’ve been accumulating lately?

I have a friend that I already brought up who felt she had to conform to white standards to be acceptable as a minority in the South, to say nothing of other ideas we can find with say the Dove commercial that tried to frame whiteness as the norm, having to backpedal on that with the predictable backlash

"Madea" is a comedy about a black woman. Anytime you have a comedy about someone, it is going to cast them in a comical light. You seem to find this offensive when blacks are cast this way but don't mind whites cast this way. The more opportunities for movies you take away from black people due to sensitivity, the less black people you will see in movies. If you had your way, there would be very few roles available for black people with most of the roles going to whites due to the diversity of acting they are allowed to do, then you would look at the few black actors and call THAT racism! IMO even if you got your way, you still wouldn't be satisfied.

Because, again, whites are the majority in terms of history in America, do you deny that basic fact? To act like blacks are on equal footing because you can constantly deflect responsibility away from race as a factor is intellectually dishonest and disingenuous

Who says I'm taking away opportunities? I'm saying the movie industry is biased in how it markets black people and we have the example of the Oscars as well in how little recognition they give to black people in general, an observation since the 2010s

White people love dreadlocks! There are even plenty of white people who put dreadlocks in their hair! Care to try again?

Them loving dreadlocks does not mean there is no condescension at all in the potential attitude taken. I'm aware of white people using dreadlocks, the point is how you seem to just want to divest black people of any real culture and just act like white people can do anything that is perceived as black and it's all equal somehow

NOBODY has to work in order to get welfare; your argument failed.

Pretty sure that's case by case in the benefits, welfare is an umbrella term, you'd have to specify the context of not working. Somehow who is severely physically disabled getting SSI and such is not in the same context as someone getting food stamps, for instance, those both fall under welfare

You said white people are not chastised for failure due to white supremacy, but black people are. Now you are changing it claiming white people are held to a higher standard due to white supremacy. Which is it? Does white supremacy force white people to be better? Or does it allow them to be comfortable in a state of failure?

It gives them the attitude they're already superior and thus they don't have to care about failure, it isn't mutually exclusive or either/or. Have you even stopped to think about the white status in America and how privileged that racial group has been in history? It isn't just a forgotten thing, it has persisted in one form or another with attitudes and societal biases, such as those against black women who don't fit into the JEzebel, Sapphire or Mammy stereotypes

If neither of us have any way of knowing if it is true or not, neither of us have any business bringing it into the conversation as if the claim might actually have merit

You don't necessarily know something is true in terms of lived experience, that's going to be a matter of provisional assertions and positions held that can change with new evidence.

I bring it in because it's relevant, not because I claim to have absolute knowledge, you're still trying to game the discussion so simultaneously we need stats, but then we don't for other things, which is special pleading

 

[Ken-1122]

This study brings up representation more recently, from early to mid 2010s, the minority representation for leads averaging out to maybe 14%, which isn't that great, especially if that combines black and other minorities, which makes the specific numbers much tougher to suss out (because I doubt the companies are keeping this in mind, since the status quo was just white majority anyway, esp. in old Hollywood)

https://socialsciences.ucla.edu/wp-...A-Hollywood-Diversity-Report-2018-2-27-18.pdf

14% sounds like a fair number for black people. Even though Mexicans and Asians are also a part of that 14%, how many Mexicans or Asians do you know of that ever get leading roles in Hollywood? Let’s say if they get 2% (which would be a stretch) that would leave 12% for black actors and since black people make up 12% of the population, it’s a fair number.

This assumes they are the only ones that matter when there are older examples of black people that should be brought up because of how they fit into history, not just whitewashed nonsense that barely acknowledges black people

Because we weren’t given our citizenship rights until recently, black people were prevented from accomplishing much prior to the civil rights era; so those involved in civil rights make up the lions share of our past heroes. But that doesn’t mean we have nobody to look up today.

"Plenty" is a subjective assessment that assumes there are equal representatives in all disciplines for that group,

No it doesn’t. “Plenty” has nothing to do with equal representation. With that said, IMO black people are more than equally represented when it comes to those in the spot light.

You can see things and be mistaken in that assessment, you have to demonstrate how this is the case beyond your anecdotal experiences

I have nothing that is going to convince you, but when I look at entertainers like Serena Williams the highest paid female athlete in the world, Oprah Winfrey voted the most powerful woman in the world, plus a plethora of singers, actors, and other such entertainers, I believe black females are well represented in the entertainment industry.

I'm a white person, you think I don't have experience of how white people will judge black people at all?

No. I think you only know how YOU and those you associate with judge black people; which says more about you than it could ever say about white people as a whole.

I have a friend that I already brought up who felt she had to conform to white standards to be acceptable as a minority in the South,

Again, I ask; what are you calling white standards, and how are they different from black standards? And please don’t say black people do not have standards because we DO!

Because, again, whites are the majority in terms of history in America, do you deny that basic fact? To act like blacks are on equal footing because you can constantly deflect responsibility away from race as a factor is intellectually dishonest and disingenuous

I never suggested black people were on equal footing in America, I’m suggesting we are well represented in the entertainment industry. If you want to see where we come up short, look at the number in the professional community; bankers, brokers, doctors, Business owners, CEO’s etc. there a lots of places we come up short when compared to the entertainment industry

Them loving dreadlocks does not mean there is no condescension at all in the potential attitude taken. I'm aware of white people using dreadlocks, the point is how you seem to just want to divest black people of any real culture and just act like white people can do anything that is perceived as black and it's all equal somehow

Are you suggesting dreadlocks are a black thing? Are you kidding me?

Have you even stopped to think about the white status in America and how privileged that racial group has been in history?

Why should I? What good is it going to do me today to focus on such horrible things of the past?

It isn't just a forgotten thing, it has persisted in one form or another with attitudes and societal biases, such as those against black women who don't fit into the JEzebel, Sapphire or Mammy stereotypes

Who are some of the black women of today do you see fitting in those roles?

 

[muichimotsu]

14% sounds like a fair number for black people. Even though Mexicans and Asians are also a part of that 14%, how many Mexicans or Asians do you know of that ever get leading roles in Hollywood? Let’s say if they get 2% (which would be a stretch) that would leave 12% for black actors and since black people make up 12% of the population, it’s a fair number.

That's 14% of everything and that's probably only a small portion relative to the supposedly 13% or so of black people, so I think your understanding of statistics is pretty terrible, and I never took it. No, it isn't, because that's 12% of a number we have yet to determine, but I'd hazard it's probably not that big in the grand scheme of lead actors. How about we go with 10000 as a rough number for now, maybe even 50000, which comes out to about 6000 black people at best, which is a pittance for the 12% of the entire U.S. population? You really want to bring up math when it seems like you just want to utilize the flat numbers without context?

Because we weren’t given our citizenship rights until recently, black people were prevented from accomplishing much prior to the civil rights era; so those involved in civil rights make up the lions share of our past heroes. But that doesn’t mean we have nobody to look up today.

I never said we had nobody to look up to today, but civil rights leaders are treated like an afterthought half the time, especially in regards to black people that are not just in that context: Harriet Tubman comes to mind as a pre Civil Rights person that is sometimes brought up, but again, acting like black people were just invisible before Civil Rights or the Civil War is dishonest, clearly they still are there in history, the curriculum is going to be biased or not even take the time to investigate or care

No it doesn’t. “Plenty” has nothing to do with equal representation. With that said, IMO black people are more than equally represented when it comes to those in the spot light.

And that's just your opinion, by your own admission, so how are we to determine if it's anything substantive? There aren't necessarily studies and that's another problem, people don't tend to care unless they're in academia about these problems, because society's been conditioned to act like it's normal

I have nothing that is going to convince you, but when I look at entertainers like Serena Williams the highest paid female athlete in the world, Oprah Winfrey voted the most powerful woman in the world, plus a plethora of singers, actors, and other such entertainers, I believe black females are well represented in the entertainment industry.

Represented and represented well are not the same thing: merely because we can find them doesn't mean they aren't still going to be viewed in that historical lens of black women stereotypes that still persists today and is a damaging factor in interracial relations

No. I think you only know how YOU and those you associate with judge black people; which says more about you than it could ever say about white people as a whole.

Did I claim absolute representaiton? No? Then stop strawmanning me with this caricature that I was so certain I'd claim I represent all white people

Again, I ask; what are you calling white standards, and how are they different from black standards? And please don’t say black people do not have standards because we DO!

The standards that have been historically as the hegemony, that's not complicated. And they're different because the black standards were regarded as unimportant historically, or do you deny that?

You can have them, I don't deny that, I'm aware, recently, about things like Gullah culture, an attempt to make a syncretic culture from what little they had in memory and tradition and the Southern culture they were raised in. But the problem is marginalization, a concept I don't think you entirely understand or are downplaying as if it's just normal to treat people like crap based on their race

I never suggested black people were on equal footing in America, I’m suggesting we are well represented in the entertainment industry. If you want to see where we come up short, look at the number in the professional community; bankers, brokers, doctors, Business owners, CEO’s etc. there a lots of places we come up short when compared to the entertainment industry

So representation in one area means it's getting "better"? How? You admit that's one out of several groups, which might as well mean you've gotten up one rung on a proverbial ladder and thus the progress is punishingly slow, even by generational standards. Yet you seem to deny systemic racism even though by your own admission, black people come up short in pretty much every other area beyond entertainment, which is easy enough to do when you're viewed as a freaking joke or a token by the majority white culture.

Are you suggesting dreadlocks are a black thing? Are you kidding me?

I'm saying there's a cultural association, likely based in ignorance and the problem is as much what people think they know and how things can change, albeit sometimes it's not for the better.

Why should I? What good is it going to do me today to focus on such horrible things of the past?

Because those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Or is that too radical? And I never said focus, I said acknowledge and consider that it isn't just gone from cultural influence, I live in the South, people still try to insist on the Lost Cause of the Confederacy or ideas that black people somehow were fine back in the pre Civil War days or other outright ignorance and misinformation they hear

Who are some of the black women of today do you see fitting in those roles?

Let's take recent Oscar winners, like Octavia Spencer or Monique. I've seen The Help (should rewatch that sometime in the future) and pretty sure Octavia Spencer's character is simultaneously the Sapphire and the Mammy, even Viola Davis as the lead fit into that Mammy role, taking care of the children. And as for the Jezebel could arguably fit into Jennifer Hudson's role in Dreamgirls, from what I gather, though honestly I'd leave some of this to you, if you're more familiar with black women that may fit into that Jezebel stereotype.

Do you acknowledge that possibility of these stereotypes being used in some sense to apply to black women? And do you not think there are similar stereotypes applied to black men, like Sambo or Mandingo or Uncle Tom (which ironically almost mirror the 3 "archetypal" black women)