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Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by Aldebaran, Oct 26, 2020.

  1. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Are you making the point that only a small percentage of black people make it in the entertainment industry? Only a small percentage of white people make it as well; what’s your point?
    If you care, you can do a count of all the people in the entertainment industry and see how many are black vs white. I personally don’t care because I’m happy with the number; however if you are not satisfied, feel free to count and let me know what you come up with.
    Doesn’t mean they will be either.
    I didn’t say “absolute representation” those are your words. (talking about straw manning) You speak as if you know how most white people judge black people.
    I don’t believe there is such a thing as a white hegemony in this country because white people are too diverse in their beliefs, ideas, and standards. If all white people believed, thought, and acted as one, you might have a point; but that is not the case.
    Systemic racism (if it actually existed) or even racism has little to do with black people coming up short in America. 95% of our problems are self inflicted. Why do you think black people who migrate to America from Africa, Caribbean's, and other parts of the world, for 2 generations will out preform black people who are decedents of slaves in education, and income? As I said before, our problem is culture; not racism, but nobody wants to talk about that.
    Don’t assume that because I don’t obsess over the racism of the past, that I haven’t studied, learned, or have knowledge of it; and don’t assume that because I don’t agree with your belief of the role it plays in the predicament my people find ourselves in today, that somehow this disagreement is based on ignorance.
    I suspect the fact that you live in the South and I live in the West, and we deal with the people we live around, this may have a lot to do with our different opinions concerning racial issues in this country.
    No more than they can be applied to many of the roles white women play. There are plenty of white actresses who play the motherly type, (Sandra Bullock from the move The blind side comes to mind) there are plenty who play the “hot head/quick tempered, (Fatal Attraction comes to mind) and plenty who play the traitor/cheater (Linsey Lohan from the movie Mean Girls comes to mind). This applies to all actor/actress; regardless of race or gender. The fact that you would criticize when black women do it but look the other way thus giving them a pass when white women do it is telling to say the least.
    No more than they can be applied to white men.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020
  2. muichimotsu

    muichimotsu I Spit On Perfection

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    Their percentage is still larger in the scale of actors overall, you're entirely ignoring that in favor of something I never suggested: that acting was easy, especially a lead role

    If you don't care, you're complacent with how things are and thus part of the larger problem where black people appear to engage in dismissal about issues for their own race, trying to conform as best they can do the dominant white culture rather than differ at all.

    So you think stereotypes are not a subconscious thing at all?


    I claim patterns, I didn't claim it applied equally, that's entirely different

    You're confusing white with ethnic identity when it's primarily a racial one. Someone can be white, but they aren't necessarily going to have the same cultural influence in all respects.

    I never claimed all white people acted the same, some are better at recognizing that they are given favored treatment, even if you continue to act like that has nothing to do with their race by your own admission, having more influence in America's history. That's blatantly burying your head in the sand and acting like race isn't a factor in social interactions at all

    You keep saying this, but not actually substantiating what you mean. A systemic racist system IS going to be cultural in nature, those norms are not going to be separate from understanding about race and in fact would tie into that because culture affects society, they aren't mutually exclusive.

    That's a reductionist argument and you know it: not to mention if you think it's about some work ethic, then you're trying to put all the blame on that instead of any other factors that could hold one back even if they work hard, which isn't a guarantee of success in the slightest

    Willful ignorance is what I accuse you of, not merely a lack of knowledge. Trying to spin everything as not having a racial aspect is as dishonest as the other extreme, which I'm not advocating. Some problems are going to have more an ethnic or ideological aspect to them, but to separate race from all interactions is delusional as to its importance as a concept in society even today as we've moved away from race as a biological category



    So there are no entitled racist white people in the West at all? Why do you think they tend to support Trump in more of the Western states (or certainly did in the 2016 election if nothing else) when they feel disenfranchised and act like everyone else but white people are part of the problem based on misguided ideologies that paint socialism as entirely evil or such?


    I didn't say motherly, I said Mammy, specifically applied as a term to black slave women who were given better status in exchange for being servile and submissive.

    And Sapphire is not the same as an angry hysterical woman stereotype, though there's certainly some overlap with that misogynistic attitude

    I'm criticizing that Hollywood still sees it as appropriate to always shoehorn (or certainly try to) black women into these roles instead of actually thinking they could market them otherwise. That's a fundamental issue in cultural bias, that black women just aren't as marketable in the eyes of producers or such. Why do you think the "black is beautiful" movement is still strong in its own right of fighting those kinds of terrible stereotypes that blackness shouldn't be expressed in the ways that are seen as less attractive in a general sense by a white dominant society (especially that practice of minstrel shows that I've brought up several times)?


    More deflection from the race issue, as if these stereotypes are used remotely the same societally as applied to white men versus blacks. Stereotyping as something common does not mean it is equally applied to all races when it comes to that which is in a hegemonic position, which doesn't require absolute unity as you seem to think: white as a racial category is such that you have Hispanics that will encourage the same kind of stereotyping that glorifies whiteness because they can "pass" versus their darker skinned Hispanic brethren.
     
  3. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    How do you know this?
    No. If you believe there is a problem here (which I do not) you are the one who have the moral obligation to investigate and try to make changes if needed; not me.
    That’s not what I said. How about if you comment on what I actually said.
    So what are this white standard you keep speaking of that black people have to adhere to, if white people are not all the same?

    Not it’s not! Systemic racism is about the system, hence the name. Culture would be cultural racism
    Racists exist everywhere; the south is just known for having more of em.
    None of the Western States went for Trump in 2016
    Socialism isn’t evil, it’s just based on foolish ideas that have been proven over and over to not work. They say the only difference between a socialist and a nazi is the nazi will never say “Well real Nazism has never been tried (LOL)
    I think your problem is that you see racism in everything; even when it isn't there.
    Do you have evidence that it is not?
    It requires unity of that particular group!
    What makes you think white Hispanics try to pass for white non Hispanics?
     
  4. muichimotsu

    muichimotsu I Spit On Perfection

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    Because white as the percentage of say 100K people is still more than the 17% of that which is black people, that's basic math, and I suck at math

    Then you're, by your own admission, just maintaining the status quo and are making a claim that you have the onus on, because it isn't a particular negative, it's a universal one as applies to America as a whole. You seem to just think racism is some minor thing at best and would prefer to blame anything else because then you don't have to feel like a victim, because that would be "weak" or some nonsense that strikes me as some latent insecurities you have to posture otherwise to project onto others that they're the ones in the wrong.


    You can't blatantly reject stereotypes because it points out a flaw in your argument, that's more goalpost shifting or special pleading. Why is this suddenly an exception to the rule? Stereotypes are not a good thing, even those that are positive in nature.


    The idea that they shouldn't dress a certain way, or do their hair a certain way, that they shouldn't be overly angry or other stereotypical associations one makes with black people in the othering process. You really think there aren't black people that fit in better because they act more "white" even if it's merely based on social constructs and stereotypes of a behavior connected to an equally abstract racial group?


    You can't fundamentally separate them, the system is conditioned by the culture, it isn't in a vacuum, you keep trying to spin things in a way that is untenable and unsubstantiated beyond your idealism.


    And people who insist that the Confederacy was not racist. Do we agree the Confederacy was in fact racist in its founding even if I'll accept not all Southerners were racist then (I learned about a labor strike in the Appalachian region back in 1921 that had whites and blacks going up against the coal industry and unfortunately they failed, but it inspired others) or even are racist now?


    You're skewing what counts, I didn't specify the ones I'm pretty sure you're referring to, the standard is not just California, Washington and Oregon, and even if we just count Pacific West, Alaska did go Trump, so you're technically wrong, let alone the Mountain states, which leaned fairly red, though even in 2016, I'll admit it was about 7 Blue and 5 Red, while this year was more blue than Red with Arizona's shift

    No, socialism is already a thing in America, what you're criticizing is an extreme form, more in the vein of authoritarian or totalitarian ideals, not the socialist or capitalist distinction, among many others that come about in several different models. I don't think most people are advocating for outright communism, especially not as it manifested in Stalinist or Leninist Russia or Maoist China, among other places, but finding a happy balance rather than extremist nationalism, which I think we both thoroughly condemn, and I'd argue nationalism is thoroughly unpatriotic.

    Racism is merely one form of prejudice, I acknowledge prejudice when I see it, it doesn't have to be racist to be condemned and it doesn't have to be something intentional, people can be ignorant in their racism, that's more often the case, if we're reasonably applying Hanlon's razor. I'm not claiming at all that these people are malicious, they're acting out of anger or disenfranchisement and that can appear on either side in various forms of prejudice

    Do you see stereotypes that you can bring up? The onus is on you in making a positive claim that white people are stereotyped the same way or in the same frequency.

    No it doesn't, certainly not in an absolute sense: we have general ideas of what is considered a white person in terms of appearance, but we also consider that ethnicity is going to create distinctions.


    That they're getting better treatment versus the negative stereotypes associated with Hispanics which a certain Republican in power decided to encourage and embolden racists who treat immigrants from Hispanic countries like trash, like they're just exploiting the system
     
  5. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    No; if white people make up 70% of the population, white actors have to make up 70% of the acting population in order for your point to be made.
    You are the one making the claim; not me.
    I never suggested stereotypes don't exist, I’m only questioning this particular claim you are making of stereotypes.
    Where I live, black people don’t dress, style themselves, or behave in any way in order to appease white people. I can’t speak for where you live.
    I don’t believe there is such a thing as acting black, or acting white. The only people I know of who think this way are racial bigots and racists.
    You keep trying to conflate the two when the terms are different. Systemic racism refers to a system in place that perpetuates racial injustice. This is not about a culture.
    White guys can’t play basketball (they even made a movie about it) they can’t dance (there’s even a song about dancing like a white girl) Nerds, etc.
    what evidence do you have that this causes white hispanics to try to pass for white non hispanics? Let me guess; no evidence only opinions right?
     
  6. muichimotsu

    muichimotsu I Spit On Perfection

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    Have you read even bits of the study? White people are easily overrepresented even in broader cast diversity with 78% when they're only about 61%, give or take of the population. And blacks might be reaching proportional representation, but that doesn't address the broader issues of other minorities, which you seem to think don't matter or aren't addressing that, as if I made this purely about blacks when that was one topic

    I made a claim and brought support, but you made a positive claim too in saying the status quo is fine, don't keep playing burden tennis, it doesn't help

    What are you questioning about my claim? More importantly, what do you think my claim is about stereotypes?

    There may be more diversity, but I don't think you can speak for all black people anymore than I can speak for all white people and your evidence is going to be as anecdotal as mine, so there has to be a synthesis and not just ignoring one side or the other, because culturally, it's going to vary by region

    That's like saying there isn't a particular notion of looking black or white, racial categories are not racist, generalizing behavior and such in a manner that isn't open to correction is racism, which I'm not advocating, because I'm aware that expression of race is different as well as appearance, which is where we get notions of black people that, to some, are not looking very "black". Race as a category perhaps can be given too much focus in how we assess people, similar to the stereotypes problem.

    I'm not conflating the two, I'm tying them inexorably in the influence one has on the other, you can't separate them as you're trying, because it's like putting the cart before the horse.

    The culture is what encourages the system, you're still being reductionist and assuming system must mean something it doesn't in regards to the racial injustice problems, because it isn't merely laws or we wouldn't still be talking about it, since it isn't laws that are the problem so much, even if some legislation and such can disproportionately affect black people, even if that wasn't the intent (Hanlon's razor)

    We know white guys can and do play basketball, it's a joke in the same vein of white guys not being able to jump, that's a stereotype that's practically imperceptible given the hegemonic status of whites anyway in other aspects, including athletics by your own admission. There are still many majority white sports and a black member of Formula 1, to my knowledge, is the only black person in the sport and has experienced racism in his understanding. Is he mistaken?

    You know what they say about assuming? And this is just a sampling from Hispanic people that have this experience about passing as white and not being treated the same even though their fellow Hispanics get called racial slurs and are generalized because of how they look

    Why Understanding Colorism Within the Latino Community Is So important – IMDiversity

    Struggling With My Identity As A White Passing Latina- The kNOw Youth Media

    White Latinos & The Privilege of Being Unseen
     
  7. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    I already said other minorities were under represented; what more do you want?
    No, you didn’t bring anything to support your claim that black people are underrepresented in the entertainment industry; you only expressed your opinion.
    That black people are forced to play stereotype roles in the entertainment industry.
    I disagree. Though I can change my behavior, I cannot change my race
    So you agree white people are stereotyped as well?
    There will always be a certain percentage of people within a group who are unhappy with who they are. There are white people who are unhappy about being too white/pale, black people who are unhappy with being too black, and brown people who feel they are too brown. But these are usually the minority of the group most don’t feel that way. For every brown person trying to pass for white is a white person trying to pass for brown.
     
  8. muichimotsu

    muichimotsu I Spit On Perfection

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    If you admit there's a problem, then what is the issue beyond seemingly your acting like there's no cultural problem that marginalizes non-white people?

    I gave you the study, it's barely been 2 days since I posted that link, post #558

    And you're taking selective cherry picked ideas that they aren't, because apparently you want to convince yourself black people are somehow equal to white people in entertainment when it still isn't the case. You think black people wouldn't disagree with you even as a fellow black person about this? What would you say then? That it's just their opinion? Then what's the worth of the discussion when you reduce it to nothing that is remotely able to be investigated in the first place?

    Pretty sure I never claimed that, so that's another strawman in your massive field. The idea of race is going to be a bit variable, which is why we get the idea of someone looking less or more black, same as being less or more Hispanic, etc.
    I'd argue it's a more modern development as black people started getting some degree of headway, but it's hardly on the same level and it doesn't have the same impact, given white people are still viewed as a cultural majority anyway. They can brush it off, black people are far less able to do that, even if they can try to act like the stereotypes aren't marginalizing them by the white perspective that dominated culture by your own admission for centuries.

    How long do you minstrel shows lasted? Over a century by rough estimates, since it didn't really become entirely inappropriate until the 1960s, even if it was really not common after the 1910s or so

    Being too white is hardly on the level of being black, because a white person can still conform to that appearance and be generalized as such, same as a white passing Hispanic.

    Where did I say a brown person tried to pass as white? Their appearance is what allows them to pass as white and Hispanic is not strictly a racial identity, it's ethnic, while black is a racial identity along with some degree of an ethnic culture, even if it's more generalized than specific African cultures or something syncretic like Gullah. .

    And white people trying to pass as brown is not comparable because that borders on blackface and the like, not a situation of genuine cultural understanding, but the very thing I think we'd agree on, that not all costumes are equal, especially when they use minstrel show techniques like brownface or blackface.
     
  9. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    .
     
  10. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    I didn’t say there was a problem, I said brown and Asian people are underrepresented in the entertainment industry. That doesn’t mean it is a problem.
    The study indicated other minorities were underrepresented, not black people.
    I never made a claim on what is or is not equal, I just said they aren’t forced to play insulting roles.
    No, you tried to claim acting black or acting white is equal to looking black or looking white. Acting black or acting white is generally used as a pejorative; looking black or white is not.
    No, these insults have been around for a long time
    No those people who are too white cannot pass for black
    Post #562
    No; blackface and the like is an attempt to insult. Whites trying to pass for something other than white are not doing so in order to insult.
     
  11. muichimotsu

    muichimotsu I Spit On Perfection

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    So the fact that black people aren't given the same representation in spite of acting being about talent and not race isn't a problem at all? Population shouldn't matter if there is equal opportunity, unless blacks and others are discouraged by white majority culture from participating as much
    It barely reached the proportional representation for black people and it's still a drop in the water compared to whites, which suggests a distinct bias

    Forced is an interesting word to use, because I didn't say that, I'm pretty sure it was more in the vein of it being more common, not that it was that discriminatory

    Where did I remotely say that? Looking in the sense of racial category is not the same as being perceived as such superficially in behavior, you're oversimplifying the word in one context when I wasn't suggesting appearances of a phenotypal nature were the same as behavior norms related to cultural ideas about race

    Yet it hardly is taken as anything serious until white people started playing victim as if other non whites getting recognition means they aren't being treated fairly, the "equality as a pie" fallacy

    Pretty sure I never claimed they could pass for black, that's putting more words in my mouth

    You calling them brown is irrelevant relative to their appearance and ethnic identity, I didn't claim brown, I said specifically Hispanic, you're literally replacing words as if they're synonymous and expecting me not to call you on that blatant misdirection

    Who says they're trying to pass? The whole point is insulting and they're not trying to pass, because they don't think they need to pass, they're white, they get special treatment already culturally
     
  12. Tom 1

    Tom 1 Optimistic sceptic Supporter

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    Are white cowboys a marginalised culture?
     
  13. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    I didn’t see anything showing black actors weren’t given the same representation. Perhaps I missed that one; care to present that one to me again?
    Actually 14% exceeds proportional representation for black people.
    Bias? How did you reach that conclusion?
    Okay! When I look at the roles black people play, I don’t see them playing roles that are racially insulting.
    Really? Going by that logic, insults directed towards black people were never taken as anything serious until black people started playing the victim.
    It’s difficult to tell who is Hispanic due to the fact that there are black, white, and brown people who are hispanic.
    The real world. I’ve seen white guys with a small percentage of native american and they try to put themselves off as native american. I’ve seen guys with far more white blood than black blood yet they claim to be black. This stuff happens all the time
    Reality disagrees with you
    If that were true, you wouldn’t have so many white people trying to pass as something else.
     
  14. muichimotsu

    muichimotsu I Spit On Perfection

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    The "same" representation would be equal amounts, like if we have 6 racial categories, all of them would have that amount, but that's arguably unrealistic until American culture in particular genuinely becomes more diverse instead of paying lipservice while still favoring whites

    And my report was a bit dated versus a recent one that came out, though the film part of the study was from February

    Hollywood Diversity Report 2020 - Social Sciences

    Fine, I could reasonably acknowledge there's progress, but there's still an issue in terms of black people struggling in some form or fashion in the entertainment industry and this is from black actors, Will Smith coming to mind with the Oscars being so white dominated

    That white people are still given the benefit of the doubt as regards whether they have to reach the same standards that we apply to non whites as regards acting

    From your perspective, it may not be that way, it doesn't mean your perspective is somehow better merely because you're black, the culture at large could be as much at fault here, reinforcing ideas that you don't see as problematic in spite of being black yourself.

    No, because black people weren't playing victim, they were marginalized and victimized: to say otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of history

    And that's why it's an ethnic identity, not a racial one, you've just given more evidence to support the claim and distinction made about Hispanic identity in the first place

    Pretty sure Native American tribes have requirements, someone can lie all they want, if they don't meet those requirements, it's little different than stolen valor for veterans and the like. Blackness is about that identity as a lived experience, a guy having that experience in black culture and having a reasonably close exposure to black culture (grandparent or such, perhaps) is not the same as someone who has a black ancestor generations back trying to do it: Family Guy pointed out the problems with that easily a decade or more ago

    The problem with "passing" is different from the white privilege aspect where white people weren't called out for centuries in treating other cultures like they were lesser and needed to be civilized by whites as those that will make things better.

    "So many" entails something I don't think you've qualified, merely brought forth limited anecdotes. This isn't a common thing, it's from insecure white people who can't accept that their culture has inflicted atrocities on minorities and instead pretend like European culture is the best culture in the world, white supremacy at its core
     
  15. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

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    Given the large number of black cowboys in history, I don't see how it would apply.

    You do know that there were a lot of black cowboys in history, right?

    If not, here: Black cowboys - Wikipedia
     
  16. muichimotsu

    muichimotsu I Spit On Perfection

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    I learned that, like many things in the last year or so, from Postcards from Buster, in an episode that brought to light the Cowboys of Color organization.

    Such an underrated show and several episodes are only available on Amazon Prime, released years after the boxset that has a good chunk of the episodes of note
     
  17. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    No, that happens only by force. When everything is fair, you will NEVER get what you call “equal representation.
    “The Oscars” is only one of countless award ceremonies for the film industry. It no more represents all in that industry any more than any of the countless others.
    So the Oscars is so white, BET awards is so black; do they have anything that is so brown? Or asian? Perhaps that is where you should be directing your complaints.
    It just isn’t me, but all black people. How many black actors do you see being accused of playing racially offensive roles? (hint; none) Perhaps it’s YOU! Just because you’re white doesn’t mean your perspective is somehow better.
    Then understand white people aren’t playing the victim when they are being insulted this way as well.
    So why did you make the claim of light skinned hispanics trying to pass for white, when they are already white? There is no need to try to pass.
    As long as they make no attempts to get Reservation privileges, there is nothing stopping them from making such claims.
    There is no single black experience or black culture, like white folks, there are countless experiences and cultures in this country.
    It doesn’t matter why, they are still trying to pass for something else.
     
  18. muichimotsu

    muichimotsu I Spit On Perfection

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    Fair and equal are distinct, but the problem appears to be more the sense that black people aren't encouraged as much, even these days, to be in entertainment on equal footing with white people


    I didn't say it represented everyone, I said it represents a trend that is worth considering as influential to people

    By your logic, nothing should be a problem as long as everyone is basically segregated off into their own groups, advocating a damaging identity politics

    You don't get to speak for all black people, I've never spoken for all white people

    Never claimed that, you keep deflecting and not taking responsibility for your position and continue to paint me as irrational by making strawmen

    Oh, some white people have that white fragility problem, or have you never heard of that? White supremacists in particular have that insecurity of trying to act like they're suddenly the victim, as if they were ever treated remotely like black people for 400+ years by white people in particular

    They aren't white in the sense of an ethnic identity one could associate, they are Hispanic. Do you not understand the difference between race and ethnicity?

    It's called social consequences: there is a restriction even if it's purely based on people ostracizing them as racist jerks that think they can just opt in to being Native american based on blood alone

    So you'd acknowledge that there are those who would argue and are not in a minority necessarily, that there is a problem in American society with how it treats people of color, black people one victim, but not the only one?

    Trying to pass is not remotely what's going on with a racist that appropriates Native american cultural dress and such but is decidedly white.
     
  19. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Not encouraged by who?
    They all represent trends.
    I didn’t say you did, I’m saying; if what you said were true, there would be people complaining to black actors about the roles they choose to play. Nobody does this.
    I’m not talking about (so called) white fragility, I’m talking about white people being insulted; or are you claiming nobody ever insults white people.
    White is not an ethnic identity, hispanic is.
    Nobody is ostracizing them, there are no consequences when they do this.
    What are you talking about? Why would a white guy trying to pass for native american wear native american dress? Native americans don’t even where native american dress unless they are involved in an event or something; other than that they wear traditional western clothes just like everybody else in this country.
     
  20. muichimotsu

    muichimotsu I Spit On Perfection

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    By the culture at large, the same as notions with hairstyles that white people can just utilize, but black people are, to an extent, discouraged from wearing because it's different for them (not sure why)

    And trends are not all equal, but their influence cannot be understated in terms of popular culture.

    I don't think you can say that absolutely, I didn't make a broad statement, I was being provisional with the assessment that some have complained, particularly black actors, you can't say the black community is entirely united in their opinions
    People can and are angry and abusive to white people based on that anger, but white people are not in the same position historically as people of color, they were never really treated that differently based on racial categories, only ethnic ones at best (I'm at least partly aware of how non-English Europeans were treated with prejudice in early America, I'm not making this purely about African, Hispanic, etc)

    Some people still insist white is an ethnic identity and you know who does that? White supremacists and their enablers who ignorantly assume white is a culture, while not understanding Hispanic is a cultural identity and can be demonstrated as such

    You don't think there are people that are fired because of such things or held to task for them even if they aren't firable? I'm not that on the trending pulse, but I feel like you live under a rock if you insist there are no social consequences, which are distinct from legal consequences or such.

    The problem is still a falsehood based on the general idea and trying to desperately deceive people. Condescension to those that are not white by acting like you're part of their group is a manifestation of the same white privilege that treats cultural dress and such as trends for white people to just utilize under the guise of "appreciation"
     
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